Progressing Spellcasting on Prestige Classess past table

[ChudoJogurt]

What happens if e.g. I take Assassin Class to level 10, and then pick up a class that grants +1 level to arcane spellcasting class progression?
Nothing? Epic Spellcasting Rules? Something Else? Is that covered by the rules somewhere?

[Inevitability]

Advancement is 'as if you had gained a level in the class' so in the case of assassin I would say it continues using the normal 11th-level progression (nevermind that you can normally only take the 11th level in the class at epic). So you'd advance CL and learn two new spells, but not get any more spells per day.

If the class doesn't have an epic progression, the above statement is undefined aka either 'nothing happens' or DM ruling territory.

[Biggus]

I think by RAW you don't get anything until you reach level 21, at which point all the extra levels kick in. But personally I'd let the caster level increase at least.


Advancement is 'as if you had gained a level in the class' so in the case of assassin I would say it continues using the normal 11th-level progression (nevermind that you can normally only take the 11th level in the class at epic). So you'd advance CL and learn two new spells, but not get any more spells per day.


Where are you getting that the epic Assassin gets two extra spells known per level from?

[Inevitability]

Where are you getting that the epic Assassin gets two extra spells known per level from?

My bad, misread. Just the CL upgrade.

[Gruftzwerg]

also remind you that "EPIC" stuff is by default optional and not in the core rules. If your DM doesn't give his permission, you can't access it.

[Inevitability]

also remind you that "EPIC" stuff is by default optional and not in the core rules. If your DM doesn't give his permission, you can't access it.

I mean yeah, so are prestige classes an sich, how is it relevant though.

Pointing out something is DM dependent seems a bit pointless when we're talking about a very specific scenario at a very specific table. OP mentioned both epic levels and the assassin class in their post, it seems safe to assume that both are allowed.

[Gruftzwerg]

I mean yeah, so are prestige classes an sich, how is it relevant though.

Pointing out something is DM dependent seems a bit pointless when we're talking about a very specific scenario at a very specific table. OP mentioned both epic levels and the assassin class in their post, it seems safe to assume that both are allowed.

I know what you mean, but epic content is one of the lesser used optional rules, while I barely see people not using the optional PRC rules at their table.

Further it wouldn't be the first time that people make the assumption that epic is core, without realizing that it's not and that they need DM approval for Epic stuff. Even if they can make it happen somehow legally before hitting lvl 21.

Finally this is also meant for the still readers/lurkers who may not be as fit in the rules as most of the active users on the board are. Thus it doesn't hurt to point it out imho. Sorry if it did bother you..

[Biggus]

I know what you mean, but epic content is one of the lesser used optional rules, while I barely see people not using the optional PRC rules at their table.

Further it wouldn't be the first time that people make the assumption that epic is core, without realizing that it's not and that they need DM approval for Epic stuff. Even if they can make it happen somehow legally before hitting lvl 21.

Finally this is also meant for the still readers/lurkers who may not be as fit in the rules as most of the active users on the board are. Thus it doesn't hurt to point it out imho. Sorry if it did bother you..

Where does it say that epic is an optional rule? Prestige classes say they're optional right there in the opening paragraphs of their section in the DMG, but there's nothing similar in the epic rules section that I can find.

[Crake]

Where does it say that epic is an optional rule? Prestige classes say they're optional right there in the opening paragraphs of their section in the DMG, but there's nothing similar in the epic rules section that I can find.

Everything outside of core is opt-in by DM approval.


If the class doesn't have an epic progression, the above statement is undefined aka either 'nothing happens' or DM ruling territory.

Im pretty sure theres a very clear rule that states if a class doesnt have a defined epic progression, then you just take any repeating patterns and extrapolate them out, like if a class feature advances at every third level, you just keep that going.

Edit: yeah, page 7-9 describes how to extrapolate class progression for classes not described in the book. Its how I built an 18th level ultimate magus for my setting

[KillianHawkeye]

Everything outside of core is opt-in by DM approval.

Yeah the Epic level rules are in the DMG though. Last I checked, that's a core book? :smallconfused:

[Gruftzwerg]

Yeah the Epic level rules are in the DMG though. Last I checked, that's a core book? :smallconfused:

Point for you that "core" is the wrong word here, since it sole describes a part of the problem here.

But...

Specifically, this is the Dungeon Master’s Guide. This book contains information that every Dungeon Master (DM) needs to set up adventures, narrate the action, run the monsters, and referee the DUNGEONS & DRAGONS game.

A PC doesn't have access to the DMG by default and always need permission to access the DMG for stuff (even crafting stuff from there). Sure, most DM ignore this since most tables switch their PCs and DM from time to time and there is no need to "hide stuff from the players" as the DMG suggest here and there.

The other source for epic rules is the EPIC lvl handbook which ain't core and is really an optional book.

So NO. A player can't demand epic rules/stuff by default.

[Inevitability]

A player can't demand epic rules/stuff by default.

What can a player 'demand by default', then? Player's Handbook content? What does 'demand by default' even mean here?

[Gruftzwerg]

What can a player 'demand by default', then? Player's Handbook content? What does 'demand by default' even mean here?
by default yeah..

demand means, that if a DM want to apply any restrictions, he has to call out his houserules and which content is allowed. Ideally before play unless it about a specific niche situation maybe. Otherwise you can "demand" the stuff the the DM seemed to have given permission to.

A player has the right to demand consistent decisions from his DM. Otherwise most people would just stop playing with a DM that decides everything on a whim (just to polarize the possible problem).

Just because everything defaults to DM decision in the end doesn't mean that a DM is free to decide everything on a whim.

[Crake]

What can a player 'demand by default', then? Player's Handbook content? What does 'demand by default' even mean here?

Replace "Demand" with "expect". Players can expect, by default, anything in the PHB. Everything outside of that requires DM approval, and anything vetoed from the PHB needs to be explicitly done so.

Essentially everything in the PHB is DM opt out, while everything else is DM opt in.

[Khedrac]

The basic answer is "nothing" (well they get a higher caster level but that's it).
Assassin (and other similar) spellcasting is only defined to 10th level, beyond that they may get new spells known, but no extra casting per day.
This also applies to epic levels as none of the epic versions of spellcasting classes grant any more casting capability - they just advance class abilities and give bonus epic feats.

[Biggus]

Point for you that "core" is the wrong word here, since it sole describes a part of the problem here.

But...


A PC doesn't have access to the DMG by default and always need permission to access the DMG for stuff (even crafting stuff from there). Sure, most DM ignore this since most tables switch their PCs and DM from time to time and there is no need to "hide stuff from the players" as the DMG suggest here and there.

The other source for epic rules is the EPIC lvl handbook which ain't core and is really an optional book.

So NO. A player can't demand epic rules/stuff by default.

Two things:

1) if everything in the DMG is an optional rule, why do they bother to specifically point out that prestige classes are optional? It seems that, at the very least, some things are more optional than others.

2) magic items are in the DMG, so by this logic the existence of magic items in the game is an optional rule. And yet in the PHB we have item creation feats, which then don't do anything unless the DM feels like it. I think you're stretching the definition of "optional rule" to its limits by claiming it applies by default to everything in the DMG.

[Chronos]

Quoth Crake:

Im pretty sure theres a very clear rule that states if a class doesnt have a defined epic progression, then you just take any repeating patterns and extrapolate them out, like if a class feature advances at every third level, you just keep that going.
Though it's less clear for classes where some ability progresses, but without a clear pattern. For instance, a Marshal's major auras start out at +1 at level 2 (when you get them), then go to +2 at level 7, +3 at level 14, and +4 at level 20. An epic marshal's auras should probably continue to improve, but at what rate?

Or even in non-epic, you get cases like the Dragon Shaman's auras. You start out knowing three of them, and then gain one more ever two levels until 9th level, at which point you know seven auras. Now, the PHB2 only included seven draconic auras, so at that point you know them all, and obviously can't learn any more... but then Dragon Magic went and introduced a bunch more. Should the dragon shaman be able to just keep on taking one more every two levels, now that there are enough available to make that possible?

[Crake]

Though it's less clear for classes where some ability progresses, but without a clear pattern. For instance, a Marshal's major auras start out at +1 at level 2 (when you get them), then go to +2 at level 7, +3 at level 14, and +4 at level 20. An epic marshal's auras should probably continue to improve, but at what rate?

My go-to is to just repeat the 1-20 progression, though for marshal auras, if you just shift the level 7 increase to level 8, then its +1 every 6 levels above 2, so thats probably what I’d just use.

Thats the DM’s job to figure out.

[Gruftzwerg]

Two things:

1) if everything in the DMG is an optional rule, why do they bother to specifically point out that prestige classes are optional? It seems that, at the very least, some things are more optional than others.

2) magic items are in the DMG, so by this logic the existence of magic items in the game is an optional rule. And yet in the PHB we have item creation feats, which then don't do anything unless the DM feels like it. I think you're stretching the definition of "optional rule" to its limits by claiming it applies by default to everything in the DMG.

The DMG is presenting rules on how to DM. Be it...

1) PRC that the DM might allow for a PC

or

2) Magic Items. Doesn't matter if they are dropped, brought with gold, or crafted. The DM has the last word if an item exists and is allowed in his play. Thus you should better ask if there are any restrictions when you wanna play a crafter. Further as crafter you should ask how much you may customize items (e.g. are 2 effects on one item allowed?).