Created Vargouilles -- still outsiders?

[Algolei]

The 3.5 MM lists vargouilles as Outsider (Evil, Extraplanar).

vargouilles' kisses cause their victims to slowly transform into vargouilles.

Would the new vargouilles still be considered Outsider (Evil, Extraplanar) or are they still natives of the Prime Material plane (assuming that's what the victims were in the first place)?








...Asking for a friend. A suddenly very, very ugly friend.

[Inevitability]

The monster manual tells us:


An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane.

This specifically allows for outsiders whose bodies are fully native to the prime material plane, but whose essence (whatever that means) is fiendish. Presumably, the transformation process involves part of this essence being transferred over to the kissed victim, where it then takes root.

A newly created vargouille would have the evil subtype for sure, and it'd be an outsider for sure: the only questionable part is what its home plane is (personally, I'd go with 'whatever plane the victim transformed on').

It's also worth noting that even if you rule human-created vargouilles to be native to the prime material plane, that doesn't give them the native subtype: such vargouilles wouldn't suddenly have to eat or sleep. 20th-level monks are another example of PMP-native outsiders that aren't native.

[Duke of Urrel]

I think there is a very clean distinction – indeed, you might say a "clear cut" distinction – between the person that your comrade once was and the vargouille that your comrade has now become. This is what the SRD says (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vargouille.htm).


The transformation is complete ... when the head breaks free of the body (which promptly dies) and becomes a vargouille.

Until the head breaks free from the body, the transformation is not yet complete and your comrade is still your comrade. Though they look hideous and are mentally impaired, they have not yet changed their creature type.

However, when the head finally breaks free from the body, the head is (according to my understanding of the rules) a vargouille in every respect. It belongs to the Outsider type and has the Evil subtype and the Extraplanar subtype.

In contrast, the headless body that the vargouille leaves behind, though it is quite dead, still belongs to your comrade's type. This body cannot be revived with the Raise Dead spell, because it is missing its head, which the Raise Dead spell cannot restore. However, the body can be revived with the Resurrection spell or the True Resurrection spell.

[Telok]

Ok, so, crazy thought. What if we cast regeneration on the guy so that the head breaks free while the spell in in effect? That should regrow the head, right?

Dang. My bad. Instant duration spell. So you need to have a readied action to tag them during separation. Or cut off a hand so it takes a few rounds for the magic to run the course. Maybe.

[Crake]

Ok, so, crazy thought. What if we cast regeneration on the guy so that the head breaks free while the spell in in effect? That should regrow the head, right?

Dang. My bad. Instant duration spell. So you need to have a readied action to tag them during separation. Or cut off a hand so it takes a few rounds for the magic to run the course. Maybe.

Dont think you can regenerate decapitation, sorry xD

[Feantar]

Ok, so, crazy thought. What if we cast regeneration on the guy so that the head breaks free while the spell in in effect? That should regrow the head, right?

Dang. My bad. Instant duration spell. So you need to have a readied action to tag them during separation. Or cut off a hand so it takes a few rounds for the magic to run the course. Maybe.

Monstrous Regeneration to the rescue. If you persist it, that is.

I genuinely don't know how regeneration works with decapitation. If I decapitate a troll with a sword (non acidic or flaming), does it die, or does it start regrowing the head / body ? Because, technically, the decapitation did non-lethal damage (as paradoxical as that sounds).


Dont think you can regenerate decapitation, sorry xD

You can do anything you've set your head to:P

[KillianHawkeye]

I genuinely don't know how regeneration works with decapitation. If I decapitate a troll with a sword (non acidic or flaming), does it die, or does it start regrowing the head / body ? Because, technically, the decapitation did non-lethal damage (as paradoxical as that sounds).

Worst case scenario, you end up with two trolls! :smalleek:

[Tzardok]

I genuinely don't know how regeneration works with decapitation. If I decapitate a troll with a sword (non acidic or flaming), does it die, or does it start regrowing the head / body ? Because, technically, the decapitation did non-lethal damage (as paradoxical as that sounds).


Depends on the creature. The description of the troll says:

If a troll loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 3d6 minutes. The creature can reattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump.

As a counterexample, the ogre mage says:

An ogre mage that loses a limb or body part can reattach it by holding the severed member to the stump. Reattachment takes 1 minute. If the head or some other vital organ is severed, it must be reattached within 10 minutes or the creature dies. An ogre mage cannot regrow lost body parts

[Feantar]

Depends on the creature. The description of the troll says:


As a counterexample, the ogre mage says:

That's helpful, although my suggestion of perstisted Monstrous Regeneration makes it more ambiguous - Monstrous Regeneration says, regarding regrowth:


A regenerating creature can regrow lost portions of its body (although the spell duration is usually not long enough to allow this except for very small portions such as fingers) and can reattach severed limbs as a move-equivalent action.Severed parts that are not reattached wither and die normally.

Point is, if it's persisted, it doesn't give clear timeframes, and the regeneration is atypical (4 HP per round). The only common thing with trolls is the Fire and Acid vulnerability.

[Telok]

Trolls traditionally could regrow heads, and the Regenerate spell mentions it. Although the spell only talks about multihead creatures, but I think that's supposed to be clarification based on the default assumption of the spell needing a luving target and being used on human PCs who die when headless.

Polymorph buddy into a troll during the head popping?

[Algolei]

...A newly created vargouille would have the evil subtype for sure, and it'd be an outsider for sure: the only questionable part is what its home plane is (personally, I'd go with 'whatever plane the victim transformed on')....


...However, when the head finally breaks free from the body, the head is (according to my understanding of the rules) a vargouille in every respect. It belongs to the Outsider type and has the Evil subtype and the Extraplanar subtype....

My DM ruled that outsiders' bodies return to their planes of origin when they die. I don't think that's by the book, but let's pretend for a minute that it is (since that's the ruling I have to live by now): If a vargouille from another plane dies, its remains disappear from the prime material plane. What then, given this scenario, would we expect to happen to the remains of a vargouille that had been created on the Prime Material plane?

In other words, can I recover my friend's head and keep it as a trophy? :smallcool: 'Cause I already have the place on the wall for it.

[Chronos]

I think that the fundamental problem is that the game rules overloaded the "Native" and "Extraplanar" keywords. On the one hand, "Extraplanar" isn't something fundamental about a creature; it's said that anything gains the [Extraplanar] subtype when anywhere but their home plane. On the other hand, all outsiders are either [Native] or [Extraplanar], suggesting that the [Native] subtype should be similarly nonpermanent. But then they went and attached other rules to the [Native] subtype: Unlike other outsiders, native outsiders still need to eat and sleep.

This could mean that everything is implicitly written from the point of view of the Material Plane, and that the intention is that outsiders whose home plane is the Material need to eat and sleep, wherever they are. On the other hand, it could also mean that all outsiders need to eat and sleep when on their home plane, but not on other planes.

Furthering the complication, it's not clear what makes a particular plane a creature's "home plane". A vargoille's place of origin is likely to be on the Material Plane, but the essence that makes it what it is comes from one of the lower planes (I can't remember if it's ever specified which one, but one of them, anyway). Is its "home" the place where it came from, or where its essence came from?

[Tzardok]

The way I see it, the Native Subtype should've been called something else, for example Mortal. Mortal Outsiders need to eat and sleep, they have a soul separate from their body, and most of them are native to the Material, but not all (example: rakshasa have the Native (or Mortal) subtype, but many of them live and are born on Acheron). (This opens up another contradiction, because rakshasa are immortal as far as I know, but that's not the topic. Edit: maybe, instead of Mortal, we should call the subtype Incarnate. Or Visceral, that's even better.)

Anyway, I think the origin of the body that produced the vargouille should not play into what the vargouille's home plane is. Imagine it like a new vargouille being from the body, similiar to a parasitic egg hatching from you. There's only two considerations: where does vargouille essence comes from, and where was the vargouille "born". According to older editions, humans (and most other beings) are native to whatever plane the mother spent most of gestation on, but for (non-Mortal) Outsiders I believe that the origin of the planar essence is more important (in fact, IIRC there was a similiar statement in older editions that slaads that are the result of being infected by a blue slaad are always native to Limbo, but don't quote me on that).

[Inevitability]

I think that the fundamental problem is that the game rules overloaded the "Native" and "Extraplanar" keywords. On the one hand, "Extraplanar" isn't something fundamental about a creature; it's said that anything gains the [Extraplanar] subtype when anywhere but their home plane. On the other hand, all outsiders are either [Native] or [Extraplanar], suggesting that the [Native] subtype should be similarly nonpermanent. But then they went and attached other rules to the [Native] subtype: Unlike other outsiders, native outsiders still need to eat and sleep.

This just seems false. The definition of [Native] is:


A subtype applied only to outsiders. These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane (hence the subtype’s name). Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep.

Nothing about this suggests that it has anything to do with what plane you're on. Just like how a babau in the abyss is neither [Extraplanar] nor [Native], an aasimar on the plane of fire is both [Native] and [Extraplanar]. This is both supported by RAW and leads to fewer rules headaches of the type you outline.

[Crake]

This just seems false. The definition of [Native] is:



Nothing about this suggests that it has anything to do with what plane you're on. Just like how a babau in the abyss is neither [Extraplanar] nor [Native], an aasimar on the plane of fire is both [Native] and [Extraplanar]. This is both supported by RAW and leads to fewer rules headaches of the type you outline.

Correct, native and extraplanar are not mutually exclusive. Native, despite its confusing name, does not mean the opposite of extraplanar, it simply means that the creature has a dual nature, unlike other outsiders.

Outsider, extraplanar, and native are all very confusing terms that ive seen people repeatedly mix up, both player and DM alike. I once had a DM insist that outsider came and went based on your plane, and I had to explain to him that he was thinking of extraplanar

[KillianHawkeye]

This is somewhat exacerbated by the Monster Manuals generally tagging creatures as Extraplanar with reference to the Material Plane, assuming that that's where most adventurer's will encounter them. But that's not always the case, and the books do advise modifying the extraplanar tag depending on what plane you're on, such as for adventurers exploring other planes and such.

But yeah, Native and Extraplanar are not opposites, even though they're generally mutually exclusive when following the assumption that you're encountering things on the Material Plane.

[Daisy]

So... what's the crunch difference (as opposed to the fluff) between an Outsider with the Native subtype and a regular material plane character?

[hamishspence]

Certain spells that work on humanoids will not work on them, for example, Hold Person.

[Tzardok]

That's kinda like asking what's the difference between a Monstrous Humanoid and a "regular player character" (I'm assuming you mean Humanoid). Abilities that care about a creature's type interact with Native Outsiders like with outsiders. That means that for example Charm Person doesn't affect a Tiefling (it only affects Humanoids), but you can banish a tiefling from the Material Plane (Banish doesn't care what your homeplane is, only wether you are Outsider/Elemental or not).

[Daisy]

Of course, that makes perfect sense. And if I'd thought about it for a minute or two, I wouldn't have needed to ask! Many thanks both.

[Brackenlord]

-snip-
That means that for example Charm Person doesn't affect a Tiefling (it only affects Humanoids), but you can banish a tiefling from the Material Plane (Banish doesn't care what your homeplane is, only wether you are Outsider/Elemental or not).

Banishment only works on extraplanar creatures, regardless of type.

[Duke of Urrel]

My DM ruled that outsiders' bodies return to their planes of origin when they die. I don't think that's by the book, but let's pretend for a minute that it is (since that's the ruling I have to live by now): If a vargouille from another plane dies, its remains disappear from the prime material plane. What then, given this scenario, would we expect to happen to the remains of a vargouille that had been created on the Prime Material plane?

In other words, can I recover my friend's head and keep it as a trophy? :smallcool: 'Cause I already have the place on the wall for it.

On page 130 of the supplementary rulebook COMPLETE_DIVINE v. 3.5 (2004), there appears the following vivid description of what happens to the departed souls of Outsiders.


The souls of outsiders […] are so intrinsically tied to the essence of their home planes that they evaporate into the fabric of the plane rather quickly.

This is where your dungeon master gets the idea.

But what happens to the body of an Extraplanar Outsider that dies on the Material Plane if it was created on the Material Plane in the first place? This is not clear. What is it that makes an Extraplanar Outsider Extraplanar? Must it be born or come into existence somewhere off the Material Plane in order to be Extraplanar? Or is it enough that its parent or parents have an Extraplanar origin?

My view is that Extraplanar Outsiders are Extraplanar because of their otherworldly heritage. It makes no difference where they are born or created. An Outsider with mixed heritage, such as an aasimar or a tiefling, is Native because it has ancestors on the Material Plane. But a vargouille has no mixed heritage. The native of the Material Plane that provided it with a head in which to spawn is not considered to be its parent. Its only true parent is the vargouille that planted the kiss.

I also have made a house rule that when an Extraplanar Outsider is on its home plane, it should have a dual nature rather than a single nature. In other words, when I'm the dungeon master, I rule that demons killed on any level of the Abyss do not instantly merge with the plane but persist as corpses and decay at the normal rate. They can even be consumed as food (by beings who have a taste for this kind of thing), and of course, their body parts can be used for various other icky and Evil purposes. They can also be traded on the inter-planar market in icky and Evil materials, particularly in the City of Sigil.

This is a house rule of mine, unopposed but also unsupported by the rulebooks. So if I were your dungeon master, I would say that there was only one way for you to keep a vargouille head as a trophy: kill it on its home plane (Hades, or perhaps Gehenna) and then take it home with you.

But of course, this is all milieu-dependent rule-making. It's your dungeon master's call to make.

[Tzardok]

Banishment only works on extraplanar creatures, regardless of type.

No, that's only dismissal. Dismissal targets one extraplanar creatur.

Wait, what? Is that...? Yes, there made a mistake in the German PHB. We've been using that spell wrong for all those years. :smallmad::smallsigh:

Thank you for telling me.

[Algolei]

...I also have made a house rule that when an Extraplanar Outsider is on its home plane, it should have a dual nature rather than a single nature. In other words, when I'm the dungeon master, I rule that demons killed on any level of the Abyss do not instantly merge with the plane but persist as corpses and decay at the normal rate. They can even be consumed as food (by beings who have a taste for this kind of thing), and of course, their body parts can be used for various other icky and Evil purposes. They can also be traded on the inter-planar market in icky and Evil materials, particularly in the City of Sigil.

This is a house rule of mine, unopposed but also unsupported by the rulebooks. So if I were your dungeon master, I would say that there was only one way for you to keep a vargouille head as a trophy: kill it on its home plane (Hades, or perhaps Gehenna) and then take it home with you....

Innnnnteresting.

Thanks! I'll make a similar suggestion to my DM, see if it intrigues him too.