Monk idea

[LumenPlacidum]

I have an idea for making monks work. The main issues I identify with monks are

Their defenses are too poor to survive as a melee combatant.
They have too much competition for bonus actions.
They have poor support from multiclassing and feats that will synergize with their iconic features.


The idea is: instead of Martial Arts granting a bonus action attack, have it grant the ability to use a reaction to make that attack when an enemy within reach hits or misses you with an attack or casts a spell.

At level 2, when they get the Ki feature, they gain the ability to spend a ki point to do the reaction attack *before* the enemy's incoming attack gets gets resolved. Any damage they do gets subtracted from the incoming attack roll. This gives the monk the ability to do a special attack (shove, grapple, stun) before the incoming attack gets rolled, so they can impose disadvantage with the ability also.

This frees up the monk's bonus action on their turn for a flurry of blows, step of the wind, ki fueled attack, or subclass feature. It provides a limited ability to have very solid defense, but with draining ki and only against one attack. It provides a nice toy to leverage with multiclassing (especially with rogues).

I enjoy the mental image of the monk defending themselves with a timely throw or trip.

It provides a build point to attach later monk abilities. Somewhere around level 7-11 the before-the-attack reaction should stop using a ki point as the main cost becomes the reaction (the prevalence of multiattack also limits the continued utility of the feature). In Tier 3, they could get an extra reaction.

Some subclass abilities can interact. Drunken Masters at level 6 have Redirect Attack. This should simply work as an additional effect when your counterattack prevents an attack from hitting you.

Kensei should be able to counterattack with their weapon instead of unarmed.

Open Hand should be able to use their Open Hand Technique abilities on the attack.

Sun Soul monks should drop to zero hit points when they use the ability, just to keep with the apparent design goals of the subclass.


Anyway, If love to hear people's thoughts on the matter.

[Kane0]

Sounds a fine idea, though it would conflict with deflect arrows. I used the same thinking to move the flurry attack to the attack action instead (and leave the martial arts attack as a bonus action, so you can choose between that or one of your Ki bonus actions or spend ki twice to get the extra attack and a bonus action keep-yourself-alive ability)

[LudicSavant]

The idea is: instead of Martial Arts granting a bonus action attack, have it grant the ability to use a reaction to make that attack when an enemy within reach hits or misses you with an attack or casts a spell.

Reminds me of something I do on some of my Monk builds, such as this one (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24890247&postcount=831) -- by grabbing 3-4 levels of Battle Master I give 'em a maneuver to do this, and then can interrupt enemy attack routines with Stunning Strike as a Reaction.

I also like that the idea specifically targets their melee defenses (since as is, most Monk defensive features are better suited to ranged play than melee. The punchy Monks need some love).


Sun Soul monks should drop to zero hit points when they use the ability, just to keep with the apparent design goals of the subclass.

:smallbiggrin: That does seem consistent with the subclass's design! :smallbiggrin:

Genuinely got me laughing, thank you.


I have an idea for making monks work. The main issues I identify with monks are

Their defenses are too poor to survive as a melee combatant.


I generally agree, but will add an extra note/nuance to that. High level Monks actually have pretty good defenses, especially with the better subclasses like Mercy. They compare favorably to the defenses of other martials in tier 4.

But damn, their defensive features are backloaded. Like, late tier 3 backloaded. And they get situational defenses at lower levels but that defense doesn't hit a critical mass of "I have so many situational defenses I actually have a well rounded defense" until high level.

I note this mostly because the One D&D / UA6 Playtest Monk... completely missed this nuance (and actually made it worse -- they nerfed their low level defenses and then gave them some new defensive features... in late tier 3 and 4. And I'm still mad about it :smalltongue:)

[stoutstien]

Reminds me of something I do on some of my Monk builds, such as this one (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24890247&postcount=831) -- by grabbing 3-4 levels of Battle Master I give 'em a maneuver to do this, and then can interrupt enemy attack routines with Stunning Strike as a Reaction.

I also like that the idea specifically targets their melee defenses (since as is, most Monk defensive features are better suited to ranged play than melee. The punchy Monks need some love).



:smallbiggrin: That does seem consistent with the subclass's design! :smallbiggrin:

Genuinely got me laughing, thank you.



I generally agree, but will add an extra note/nuance to that. High level Monks actually have pretty good defenses, especially with the better subclasses like Mercy. They compare favorably to the defenses of other martials in tier 4.

But damn, their defensive features are backloaded. Like, late tier 3 backloaded. And they get situational defenses at lower levels but that defense doesn't hit a critical mass of "I have so many situational defenses I actually have a well rounded defense" until high level.

I note this mostly because the One D&D / UA6 Playtest Monk... completely missed this nuance (and actually made it worse -- they nerfed their low level defenses and then gave them some new defensive features... in late tier 3 and 4. And I'm still mad about it :smalltongue:)

Agreed. The overall monk package is actually solid but it's way too backloaded and shifting without player buy in.

It's the only class that has an almost fixed role per tier and there not a whole heck of a lot you can do about it.

Even something simple like spreading out the save prof over the chassis would go a long way to addressing this.

[da newt]

Maybe there is a simple way to tweak the existing deflect missiles to work against any attack - turn it into more of a parry that you can turn into a counter strike. If you did this right, it may provide just about everything you are looking for (and you could burn ki to add riders to the counter attack).


Deflect Missiles Blows
Starting at 3rd level, you can use your reaction to deflect missiles when you are hit by a ranged weapon attacks. When you do so, the damage you take from the attack is reduced by 1d10 + your Dexterity modifier + your monk level.

If you reduce the damage to 0, you can catch the missile if it is small enough for you to hold in one hand and you have at least one hand free. If you catch a missile in this way, you can spend 1 ki point to make a ranged counter attack with the weapon or piece of ammunition you just deflected caught, as part of the same reaction. You make this attack with proficiency, regardless of your weapon proficiencies, and the attack missile counts as a monk weapon for the attack, which has a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet.


Maybe add a bit at higher level to allow 'deflect blows' to also work against spell/magic attacks.

[LumenPlacidum]

Yeah, I considered changing Deflect Missiles instead of Martial Arts. It's definitely another way to go. Making the attack the reaction and giving it a contingent ability to defend you emphasizes the attack part of it, whereas giving the monk the ability to lower damage with a contingent ability to attack makes it so the defense part of it is emphasized instead of the attack part. I think only playtesting would really show which one felt better.

I wrote up the full changes that I intend to implement as a playtesting change at my table at some point in the next couple months. There are some cascading changes that need to be done to subclasses to prevent my houserule from invalidating other choices. If you'd like to see them, I have included them in the spoiler below.


Martial Arts. The entire Martial Arts feature is exactly the same except for the third bullet point (the one about making a bonus action unarmed strike after taking the Attack action on your turn). It is being replaced by the following bullet point instead.

When an enemy hits or misses you with a melee attack and is within reach, you may spend a Reaction to make an unarmed strike against that enemy. The attack occurs after that enemy's attack finishes being resolved.

Ki. In addition to Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense, and Step of the Wind, a monk gains access to the following feature when they gain their Ki feature at level 2.

Windmill Counter. When an enemy attacks you with a melee attack and is within reach, you may spend 1 ki point as a Reaction to make an unarmed strike against that enemy. Any damage done by this unarmed strike is subtracted from the enemy's attack roll. This unarmed strike may be replaced by a Grapple or a Shove as normal. Your attack is resolved before the enemy's attack.

If the attacker can no longer reach the target, their attack fails.

Flowing Water Counter. This is a new feature gained by the monk at level 9. It augments the previous Windmill Counter feature.

At level 9, you may now perform a Windmill Counter when an enemy casts a spell while within reach. The counterattack is performed before the spell resolves. If you hit the spellcaster, they must make a Concentration saving throw using your Ki save DC. If they fail, they fail to cast the spell, losing the spell slot they would have used.

Reflexes of the Wind. This is a new feature gained by the monk at level 13. It augments the previous Windmill Counter feature.

At level 13, you may now perform a Windmill Counter without spending a ki point

Improved Reflexes of the Wind. This is a new feature gained by the monk at level 15.

At level 15, you regain the use of your Reaction at the start of each turn, instead of at the start of your turn.



Subclasses

Way of Shadow

At level 17, instead of the Opportunist feature, you gain the Shadow Counter ability below.

Shadow Counter. At 17th level, you can dominate the darkened battlefield, being everywhere you need to be. When an enemy within 60 feet of you targets an ally with a melee attack and both you and this enemy are in dim light or darkness, you can spend 2 ki points as a Reaction to teleport to be adjacent to both the attacking enemy and the targeted ally, and you make a Windmill Counter on that attack. If you hit and do damage, the result is subtracted from the attack roll of the triggering attack, even though the attack is not against you.

Way of the Drunken Master

At level 6, when the monk gains access to the Tipsy Sway feature, the following addendum gets added to the Redirect Attack subfeature:

If you use Windmill Counter and the enemy misses you with the attack that triggered the Windmill Counter, then you may use Redirect Attack on that attack as part of the same Reaction and without spending an additional ki point.

Way of the Kensei

At level 3, when the monk gains access to the Path of the Kensei feature and the Kensei Weapons subfeature, the monk will be allowed to use a melee kensei weapon to perform attacks from Windmill Counter.

Way of the Open Hand

At level 3, when the monk gains access to the Open Hand Technique ability, the extra rider effects on the attacks can be used on Windmill Counter attacks as well as on Flurry of Blows attacks.

Way of the Sun Soul

At level 17, the Sun Shield feature does its damage to every creature that strikes you each time they strike you, with no Reaction required, so as not to interfere with your counterattacks.