Telling Time Underground

[RNightstalker]

So a party is going to be going into an underground dungeon that should take them a couple weeks of in-game time to complete. How will the characters be able to tell time in order to rest properly, pray for their spells at the right time, etc.? They won't be able to practically go in and out into the open air at will.

[icefractal]

What level party? For example, "scry on a known sundial" could be a valid option, but only if they're high enough level that scrying is easy.

The problem is that a lot of time-keeping devices - hourglasses and candles for instance - don't work so well when they're being jostled around by the owner fighting / running / climbing. But if you have a stationary base of operations, those are options.

Spells can be a way of timing things. For example, Mage Armor lasts an hour/level, and you can presumably tell when you have it or don't, so at 6th level, four castings per day would give you an idea of what time it was, minus accumulated error from not casting the replacement immediately. However, if you ever get KO'd or otherwise unable to maintain the castings, there's no way to re-sync with outside time.

If this is PF1, then Prestidigitation lasts an hour and is usable at will, so there's your clock right there. With again, the same re-sync problem.

If Cleric prayer needs to be done at a particular time of day, that's a way to re-sync (but it might take up to 23 hours) - keep praying until you get your spells back, and that's sunrise (or sunset, or whatever time is applicable).

If there are large underground bodies of water, then tides would still apply, so with sufficient knowledge of those (Nature, presumably, or maybe Geography) you should be able to approximate the time.

[Razade]

So a party is going to be going into an underground dungeon that should take them a couple weeks of in-game time to complete. How will the characters be able to tell time in order to rest properly, pray for their spells at the right time, etc.? They won't be able to practically go in and out into the open air at will.

Rest is just set to an 8 hour increment in the rules right? So it doesn't really matter what time it is on the surface right? Praying for spells for the cleric matter only if they have a fixed time where they have to do it which only applies to some Clerics. Maybe they just have an innate sense for when it do it thanks to their Divine connection?

[smetzger]

Rest is just set to an 8 hour increment in the rules right? So it doesn't really matter what time it is on the surface right? Praying for spells for the cleric matter only if they have a fixed time where they have to do it which only applies to some Clerics. Maybe they just have an innate sense for when it do it thanks to their Divine connection?

Yeah, this is the way to do it. They just rest when they want and *poof* it is the next day.
Unless your tracking encumbrance down to the gp and you playing a game of resource atrittion, don't sweat the details.

[Ashtagon]

This is where wandering monsters from early editions really came in handy. They arrived so regularly you could set a watch by them.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Hourglasses don't stop working underground. Just have a small‚ one hour hourglass‚ and a big 8 hour hourglass for the night‚ and you should be about good to go. Maybe put them on Tenser's Floating Disk to ensure they're vertical‚ but I don't even think it's necessary.

[rel]

A PC with even a single rank of survival can unerringly find north. Given that general level of competence, an easy skill check should allow a PC to tell the current time.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Dungeonscape has a cheap item for that. Dawnstone or something like that.

Edit: It's the Firmament Stone (DS 35, 110gp) which tracks the position of either the sun or the moon. It also gets specifically called out as helping divine casters track their spell preparation times underground.


Rest is just set to an 8 hour increment in the rules right? So it doesn't really matter what time it is on the surface right? Praying for spells for the cleric matter only if they have a fixed time where they have to do it which only applies to some Clerics. Maybe they just have an innate sense for when it do it thanks to their Divine connection?

All divine spellcasters need to pick a specific time of day to prepare their spells. In exchange they don't need 8 hours of rest to prepare spells (though the recent casting limit still applies).


Time of Day

A divine spellcaster chooses and prepares spells ahead of time, just as a wizard does. However, a divine spellcaster does not require a period of rest to prepare spells. Instead, the character chooses a particular part of the day to pray and receive spells. The time is usually associated with some daily event. If some event prevents a character from praying at the proper time, he must do so as soon as possible. If the character does not stop to pray for spells at the first opportunity, he must wait until the next day to prepare spells.

[Inevitability]

Does anyone in your party have 1/day abilities (think a paladin's smite, a wizard with Sudden Metamagic, some magic item with limited daily charges)? Because if so, tracking their expenditure and recovery should allow for timekeeping.

[Metastachydium]

Have a Warlock on the roster. See the Unseen comes online at level 1, lasts 24 hours, no matter what, and can be used at-will. When the Warlock suddenly loses Darkvision, a day's over, it's time to rest.

[RNightstalker]

What level party? For example, "scry on a known sundial" could be a valid option, but only if they're high enough level that scrying is easy.


Level 13 when they get underground.


Yeah, this is the way to do it. They just rest when they want and *poof* it is the next day.
Unless your tracking encumbrance down to the gp and you playing a game of resource atrittion, don't sweat the details.

The module is centered around the details and to make the DM look like a jerk...almost to the point of making it less of a dungeon crawl and more of a war of attrition...but I've got a good group.


This is where wandering monsters from early editions really came in handy. They arrived so regularly you could set a watch by them.

Oh there's more than wandering monsters...encounters designed to interrupt spell recovery.



Dungeonscape has a cheap item for that. Dawnstone or something like that.


I hope none of my players are on this thread lol...


Does anyone in your party have 1/day abilities (think a paladin's smite, a wizard with Sudden Metamagic, some magic item with limited daily charges)? Because if so, tracking their expenditure and recovery should allow for timekeeping.

It could be a great way to burn resources.


Have a Warlock on the roster. See the Unseen comes online at level 1, lasts 24 hours, no matter what, and can be used at-will. When the Warlock suddenly loses Darkvision, a day's over, it's time to rest.

Party consists of Cleric/RSoP, Warmage, Rogue/Bard, and Paladin/Fighter...you're not trying to have me make it easy on them are you?!?!

[Inevitability]

you're not trying to have me make it easy on them are you?!?!

Out of curiosity: what is your plan if the party cannot do timekeeping? Will you just tell the cleric and paladin 'oh sorry, it was actually dawn a while ago, but you guys weren't praying back then so you do not get any spells back, enjoy the next 5 encounters and make sure you do not miss the next dawn too?'. Because that seems profoundly unfun, especially when there's two party members who are getting their spells back automatically.

Anyway, the easy answer is to have the cleric or paladin turn undead once at the start of each day and just record whenever those uses are regained. A radiant servant of pelor shouldn't be lacking turning attempts anyway. It's hardly 'burning resources' at that point.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Anyway, the easy answer is to have the cleric or paladin turn undead once at the start of each day and just record whenever those uses are regained. A radiant servant of pelor shouldn't be lacking turning attempts anyway. It's hardly 'burning resources' at that point.

Most magic items in the MIC also explicitly recharge at dawn (and some of them have visual indicators for doing so), so if that's your spell preparation time you're golden.

[Gruftzwerg]

Out of curiosity: what is your plan if the party cannot do timekeeping? Will you just tell the cleric and paladin 'oh sorry, it was actually dawn a while ago, but you guys weren't praying back then so you do not get any spells back, enjoy the next 5 encounters and make sure you do not miss the next dawn too?'. Because that seems profoundly unfun, especially when there's two party members who are getting their spells back automatically.

How often do you complain about a flying encounters when you have a melee character in your party?

Just because there is a DM tool that can temporary shut down a caster (or make his life harder at least), doesn't mean that you don't have to ever use it against PCs.

Just like you maybe sometimes annoy the Ubercharger as DM with a flying enemy faction. It's just a bit different to do the same with casters. Wizards can lose their spellbooks. It rarely happens in actual play, but it happens and it should happen. These are inbuild difficulties/downsides.
Same here with caster who need to pray at a certain time (Cleric; Paladin;..).

Do casters really need to be pampered more in 3.5?? Imho not.
Let em feel the pain..^^

It shouldn't happen always, but if it never happens it is to boring imho.

[sleepyphoenixx]

How often do you complain about a flying encounters when you have a melee character in your party?

Just because there is a DM tool that can temporary shut down a caster (or make his life harder at least), doesn't mean that you don't have to ever use it against PCs.

Just like you maybe sometimes annoy the Ubercharger as DM with a flying enemy faction. It's just a bit different to do the same with casters. Wizards can lose their spellbooks. It rarely happens in actual play, but it happens and it should happen. These are inbuild difficulties/downsides.
Same here with caster who need to pray at a certain time (Cleric; Paladin;..).

Do casters really need to be pampered more in 3.5?? Imho not.
Let em feel the pain..^^

It shouldn't happen always, but if it never happens it is to boring imho.

An ubercharger can charge flying enemies simply by getting flight. In fact at any level where flying enemies are common he's expected to have it.

I also wouldn't call it pampering.
There really aren't a lot of ways you can stop a divine caster from preparing spells for long without breaking SoD since you can expliclty pray for spells later if you're prevented from doing so at the proper time and you only need 15 minutes to prepare a quarter of your spells.
So you'd have to keep up a literal non-stop stream of enemies or have patrols "just happen" to stumble on the party every single time they sit down for 15 minutes or more.

The same applies to spellbooks. Even minor precautions (tattoo spellbooks, Possum Pouch) already make it very difficult to part a wizard from his spellbook without coming off as blatantly contrieved, so unless your player is very careless with it (a mistake they'll likely only make once) it probably won't happen in most games.

[Gruftzwerg]

An ubercharger can charge flying enemies simply by getting flight. In fact at any level where flying enemies are common he's expected to have it.

An Ubercharger always needs WBL to compensate for his shortcomings. Nothing new. But compared to a spell with 24h duration (to measure the time to pray again at the next day) or a scrying spell which helps the cleric to bypass this problem, WBL investment is the heavier tax for a build (which even comes online later due to high price for flying items).



I also wouldn't call it pampering.
There really aren't a lot of ways you can stop a divine caster from preparing spells for long without breaking SoD since you can expliclty pray for spells later if you're prevented from doing so at the proper time and you only need 15 minutes to prepare a quarter of your spells.
So you'd have to keep up a literal non-stop stream of enemies or have patrols "just happen" to stumble on the party every single time they sit down for 15 minutes or more.
It ain't that easy as you are implying here:

Time of Day: A divine spellcaster chooses and prepares spells ahead of time, just as a wizard does. However, a divine spellcaster does not require a period of rest to prepare spells. Instead, the character chooses a particular part of the day to pray and receive spells. The time is usually associated with some daily event. Dawn, dusk, noon, and midnight are common choices. Some deities set the time or impose other special conditions for granting spells to their clerics. If some event prevents a character from praying at the proper time, he must do so as soon as possible. If the character does not stop to pray for spells at the first opportunity, he must wait until the next day to prepare spells.
You may not miss the first opportunity you have at the given time.
E.g. If you are under attack at the specific time, you may delay it until the end of fight. After combat you first pray and then loot! If you loot first, you missed the first opportunity.
The same goes, if you miss the first opportunity because you aren't aware of the daytime currently.




The same applies to spellbooks. Even minor precautions (tattoo spellbooks, Possum Pouch) already make it very difficult to part a wizard from his spellbook without coming off as blatantly contrieved, so unless your player is very careless with it (a mistake they'll likely only make once) it probably won't happen in most games.

As said, all build can cover their shortcomings somehow if they want. The question is just how hard or expensive it is.

edit: Also note that the divine caster ain't as crippled here as an Ubercharger against a flying enemy. The caster may still have unused spells from the last time he prayed for spells. An Ubercharger's build is completly shut down if he can't fly and has to face a flying enemy. Really, imho burdening a divine caster to keep track of the daytime ain't that big of an issue compared to that.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Really, imho burdening a divine caster to keep track of the daytime ain't that big of an issue compared to that.
There's nothing to keep track of though. Time in D&D passes at the speed of narration, and that's in the hands of the DM.

He either has a way to tell the time - in which case he'll simply tell you "i wait until dawn and prepare my spells" - or he doesn't, in which case he won't prepare any spells at all.
It's not even a burden, it's simply a binary "you don't get to play your class in this dungeon" choice.

[Razade]

All divine spellcasters need to pick a specific time of day to prepare their spells. In exchange they don't need 8 hours of rest to prepare spells (though the recent casting limit still applies).

The PHB doesn't say that. The SRD does, clearly, but the wording of the 3.5 PHB is different both on the actual Cleric class and in the chapter discussing spells.


Clerics do not acquire their spells from books or scrolls, nor do they prepare them through study. Instead, they meditate or pray for their spells, receiving them through their strength of faith. Each Cleric must choose a time at which he must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain his daily allotment of spells. Typically this hour is at dawn or noon for good clerics and at dusk or midnight for evil ones.

I've been at plenty of tables that rule that the hour doesn't have to be the same hour every time (and the rules do not say it has to be nor do they imply it) nor do the rules in the PHB say it has to be a specific time of day. It actually uses the word typically, so as in...not required. Page 179 also doesn't say it has to be at the same time every day and even allows for you to pray if the time you select is interrupted.


Time of Day: A divine spellcaster chooses and prepares spells ahead of time, just as a wizard does. However, a divine spellcaster does not require a period of rest to prepare spells. Instead, the character chooses a particular part of the day to pray and receive spells. The time is usually associated with some daily event. Dawn, dusk, noon, and midnight are common choices. Some deities set the time or impose other special conditions for granting spells to their clerics. If some event prevents a character from praying at the proper time, he must do so as soon as possible. If the character does not stop to pray for spells at the first opportunity, he must wait until the next day to prepare spells.

Note, again, that the language is given in non-definitive tone. The time is usually associated with some daily event. Meaning it doesn't have to be a daily event and further (as I said) that some deities do impose special conditions. A Cleric can totally set the time they need to pray as "the hour after I wake up" and still count for the rules so long as the Deity they worship doesn't require something else specifically.

[icefractal]

There's nothing to keep track of though. Time in D&D passes at the speed of narration, and that's in the hands of the DM.

He either has a way to tell the time - in which case he'll simply tell you "i wait until dawn and prepare my spells" - or he doesn't, in which case he won't prepare any spells at all.
It's not even a burden, it's simply a binary "you don't get to play your class in this dungeon" choice.Well, there is the option to just start praying at any point and keep praying until you get spells. Obviously dependent on the circumstances, but it works and also resets your clocks if they're gotten out of sync.

"No, the god won't accept praying longer than an hour" - WTF, are you following the god of Simon Says? Unless this is an extremely lawful deity with the portfolio of "rules must be followed precisely even if the outcome is stupid" then I wouldn't buy that.



I hope none of my players are on this thread lol...

...

Party consists of Cleric/RSoP, Warmage, Rogue/Bard, and Paladin/Fighter...you're not trying to have me make it easy on them are you?!?!I mean, what's your intent in asking this question then? :smalltongue: Are you trying to figure out how to foil all practical methods of timekeeping to make the module more punishing?

[Gruftzwerg]

There's nothing to keep track of though. Time in D&D passes at the speed of narration, and that's in the hands of the DM.

He either has a way to tell the time - in which case he'll simply tell you "i wait until dawn and prepare my spells" - or he doesn't, in which case he won't prepare any spells at all.
It's not even a burden, it's simply a binary "you don't get to play your class in this dungeon" choice.

As mentioned, spell durations can be used to keep track of time. Something a ceric has out of the box. 24h duration spells come online at lvl 1. If your cleric is to lazy or dumb to prepare any one these before going on a dungeon/underworld trip, it is his fault.

Compare it again to the fighter that needs to wait until mid lvls before he has accumulated enough WBL to buy an item to fly and compensate for his weakness.

Sorry but imho you are pampering spellcasters here.



The PHB doesn't say that. The SRD does, clearly, but the wording of the 3.5 PHB is different both on the actual Cleric class and in the chapter discussing spells.

Either you missed it or you are looking at the wrong place in the PHB:

Each cleric must choose a time at which he must spend 1 hour each day in quiet ontemplation or supplication to regain his daily allotment of spells. Typically, this hour is at dawn or noon for good clerics and at dusk or midnight for evil ones.





I've been at plenty of tables that rule that the hour doesn't have to be the same hour every time (and the rules do not say it has to be nor do they imply it) nor do the rules in the PHB say it has to be a specific time of day. It actually uses the word typically, so as in...not required. Page 179 also doesn't say it has to be at the same time every day and even allows for you to pray if the time you select is interrupted.
DM fiat is simply that: DM Fiat!

It's just that most DMs either don't know of these details, or don't want to bother to keep track of these things. Nothing wrong with that. But it is indirectly pampering the spellcaster.
Because the PHB demands this:

If some event prevents a character from praying at the proper time, he must do so as soon as possible. If the character does not stop to pray for spells at the first opportunity, he must wait until the next day to prepare spells.
You may not fail to catch the fist opportunity to pray at that specific daytime. If you forget about it or wasn't aware that the time passed away (maybe even unconscious), it's your fault/problem. That is the intention behind the mechanic here.
Is it a bothering and maybe un-fun mechanic? Maybe, but so are other "religious burdens"-mechanics some classes have. Lessening those burden or even completely ignoring em is DM Fiat in favor of casters.




Note, again, that the language is given in non-definitive tone. The time is usually associated with some daily event. Meaning it doesn't have to be a daily event and further (as I said) that some deities do impose special conditions. A Cleric can totally set the time they need to pray as "the hour after I wake up" and still count for the rules so long as the Deity they worship doesn't require something else specifically.
The requirement is a specific time of the day and not the time of a daily activity of your character. The latter would be imho again DM fiat.

[sleepyphoenixx]

As mentioned, spell durations can be used to keep track of time. Something a ceric has out of the box. 24h duration spells come online at lvl 1. If your cleric is to lazy or dumb to prepare any one these before going on a dungeon/underworld trip, it is his fault.

Compare it again to the fighter that needs to wait until mid lvls before he has accumulated enough WBL to buy an item to fly and compensate for his weakness.

Sorry but imho you are pampering spellcasters here.

And the buff is over when the DM decides a day has passed. Still falls under "has a way to keep time". You're not keeping track of anything.
You're telling your DM "i pray for new spells when X buff runs out" instead of "i pray for new spells at dawn". Whoo, much effort, glad we aren't pampering our casters by removing it. :smalltongue:

A character can keep track of time, but unless you play through every single round in the day a player simply can't. Because the flow of (out of combat) time is decided by the DM.

It doesn't matter how your character keeps time, just that he has a way to do so. Be it buffs, magical items recharging, a Firmament Stone or your god personally calling you for your daily prayer session. You tell your DM your character is tracking time and doing something when time is X.


I'm also not sure where your obsession with fighters is coming from. Fighters are bad. It's common knowledge. Does that mean everyone else needs to be bad too?
The game assumes a party with spellcasters for a reason. And making a strong class unfun to play is a terrible balance approach.

[Gruftzwerg]

And the buff is over when the DM decides a day has passed. Still falls under "has a way to keep time". You're not keeping track of anything.
You're telling your DM "i pray for new spells when X buff runs out" instead of "i pray for new spells at dawn". [COLOR="#0000FF"]

I'm also not sure where your obsession with fighters is coming from. Fighters are bad. It's common knowledge. Does that mean everyone else needs to be bad too?
The game assumes a party with spellcasters for a reason. And making a strong class unfun to play is a terrible balance approach.

I'm just questioning you if you tailor encounters always melee friendly as soon as you have a melee PC in your party? I guess not.

So why would you make sure that there is never a situation where the cleric can't track time for reasons (e.g. you wake up in a prison without daylight)?

Sure it doesn't has to come up every time. But having it never happen is boring, lazy and pampering imho.
Same with the spellbook of wizard. If it is never threatened it seems unrealistic to me.
These mechanics are there to be used occasionally. You(r DM) can ignore it if you want. But that is DM fiat. And I have to ask if we really need to pamper the T1 classes? Remind you of the melee builds again. Do you pamper em too, so that they have always fun using their build to the fullest? Do you never hamper them (e.g. movement restricting effect)? I doubt it..

And it's not that the cleric can't cast any spells when he misses the time of the day for prayer. He still has any leftovers from the day before. He just can't refresh em. In most cases still less hampered then a melee vs flying enemies (without access to flying himself).

It's a "quality of life" thing I get it (to not track such things or burden people to much with such details). But pls stop pretending as if the class becomes unplayable just because a DM relied on the mechanic to stop a T1 caster once in a while. It's already hard enough to stop and hamper T1 casters. Do they really need this QoL buff that totally relies on DM fiat? Imho not.

I'm not suggesting to annoy your players over and over with it. Just suggesting to use the mechanic from time to time. ;)

[Maat Mons]

According to Faiths and Pantheons, Clerics of Lolth pray for spells before or after trance, so time of day doesn't matter to them.

If all else fails, you can use Sending to ask someone what time it is. If the person you contact is in a different time zone, remember to adjust accordingly.

The thing that really screws over some Clerics is adventuring within the Arctic or Antarctic circle. You can go months without a dawn or dusk.

Count yourself lucky no one is playing a Wizard, and the Cleric didn't pick a deity with the travel domain. Otherwise, the group could just Greater Teleport in and out of the dungeon. For that matter, they could Greater Teleport to a time zone where it's the right time of day for the Cleric to prepare spells.

[Razade]

Either you missed it or you are looking at the wrong place in the PHB:

I quoted it directly, with page number. A Time doesn't mean, nor is it implied to mean, a number on the clock. It does not say a time of day. It says a time they need to take an hour each day. As in, a time they select they must do every day they want spells. If they wanted a specific time of day, they'd have said it because other rules specify that. The examples are likewise not times on a clock. Noon is different by location so it can't be a fixed time.



The requirement is a specific time of the day and not the time of a daily activity of your character. The latter would be imho again DM fiat.

No. It isn't time of day and the rules very expressly say daily event or, to use a synonym, activity. Specific trumps general.

It does not use the phrase time of day on Page 32 or Page 179 which are the only two places in the book that cover it, or in the SRD. Page 179 says "part of the day" but you know what's part of the day? Mealtime. That's a part of the day. It further says " The time is usually associated with some daily event" which means it can cover more than a time division. A daily event could be bathing, eating (see mealtime), or even waking up which further specifies the previous sentence can be broader than some arbitrary clock based requirement. It never says time of day. It says a time, each day. Those aren't the same thing and the rest of the rules expand on it. That's not DM Fiat. That's literally reading the rules as they're written.

[sleepyphoenixx]

So why would you make sure that there is never a situation where the cleric can't track time for reasons (e.g. you wake up in a prison without daylight)?
Because i don't have to make sure, i just have to not go out of my way to fabricate such a situation. Because - as this thread has established - keeping track of time is easy, so the situations where it comes up naturally are vanishingly rare.


Sure it doesn't has to come up every time. But having it never happen is boring, lazy and pampering imho.
Same with the spellbook of wizard. If it is never threatened it seems unrealistic to me.
These mechanics are there to be used occasionally. You(r DM) can ignore it if you want. But that is DM fiat. And I have to ask if we really need to pamper the T1 classes? Remind you of the melee builds again. Do you pamper em too, so that they have always fun using their build to the fullest? Do you never hamper them (e.g. movement restricting effect)? I doubt it..
Again with the melee classes. Do you also have rogues stealing the fighters greatsword when he's sleeping? Or sundering his gear? Can't pamper the melee classes after all, we're fair here.


And it's not that the cleric can't cast any spells when he misses the time of the day for prayer. He still has any leftovers from the day before. He just can't refresh em. In most cases still less hampered then a melee vs flying enemies (without access to flying himself).
If the content is easy enough that the cleric still has enough leftover spells for an entire day maybe you should make combat harder instead of preventing him from playing his class. You know, give him a challenge instead of stopping him from participating.


It's a "quality of life" thing I get it (to not track such things or burden people to much with such details). But pls stop pretending as if the class becomes unplayable just because a DM relied on the mechanic to stop a T1 caster once in a while. It's already hard enough to stop and hamper T1 casters. Do they really need this QoL buff that totally relies on DM fiat? Imho not.
After you've gone after a spellbook or told a cleric he can't prepare spells because he doesn't know the time once your players will default to taking precautions against those because they're not fun.

And as soon as that happens the option is off the table for you in 99% of cases anyway unless you're willing to go into blatant DM-fiat.
Which turns it into a WBL tax so minor it's barely even worth noting on your character sheet, so you may as well skip it from the get-go.

There's also no shortage of ways to hamper casters that aren't blatantly unfun for the player.
If you want to stop your casters from preparing spells because they're imprisoned give them a prison warden who'll interrupt them. Give them an enemy, something to fight against and plot around. Not a binary "you can't prepare spells here because i don't want you to".

[Chronos]

The problem with caster limitations like prayer timing or losing a spellbook is that they're too binary. If an ubercharger who can't fly meets a flying enemy, he can get out a bow, and still have at least a basic level of competence with it: Even if none of his feats and such apply, he still has proficiency and full BAB. And he'll probably also be able to contribute at full effectiveness in the next encounter.

On the other hand, if you do something to a caster to take away his spells, he can do nothing in this encounter, and nothing in the next encounter, all day.

Taking away some of a character's power is fine, and can increase fun. Taking away all of a character's power, though, decreases fun. You never want to decrease fun.

[Tzardok]

Is it binary? Shouldn't good spellcasters have wands and scrolls for backup?

[Gruftzwerg]

No. It isn't time of day and the rules very expressly say daily event or, to use a synonym, activity. Specific trumps general.
It does not use the phrase time of day on Page 32 or Page 179 which are the only two places in the book that cover it, or in the SRD.

Excuse me, but look again at page 179.
About what are we talking here about?

Time of Day:
Followed by its DEFINITION.

The rule we are talking about defines the term "TIME OF DAY" and yet you argue that the rules never say so...

"Daily event" is still referring to "Time of Day" and not to your daily activities.

And regarding the argument of "exact time"...
Since it's a medieval fantasy setting, we can assume that time is measured by the day and night cycles (sunrise, noon, dusk, midnight...) and not with a digital watch. The examples follow this logic. Imho RAW and RAI are the same here.



Because i don't have to make sure, i just have to not go out of my way to fabricate such a situation. Because - as this thread has established - keeping track of time is easy, so the situations where it comes up naturally are vanishingly rare.
Why not? Ain't it normal for a DM to use the "shut down" option from time to time for his PCs? And normally the DM targets the strongest or at least one of the stronger PC. Like a T1 caster imho.



Again with the melee classes. Do you also have rogues stealing the fighters greatsword when he's sleeping? Or sundering his gear? Can't pamper the melee classes after all, we're fair here.
Dunno about you, but losing gear is a DM trophy that comes up from time to time. Just think about Oozes and Rust Monsters. 3.5 has inbuild options to destroy and take away player gear. Why should a DM never use such things?
Again.. I'm not suggesting to torture your players with such things at every session. But if they never struggle, they won't appreciate the "good times". Therefore this is a good stroy telling trophy imho. If you never use it, you just narrow down your good story telling options.



If the content is easy enough that the cleric still has enough leftover spells for an entire day maybe you should make combat harder instead of preventing him from playing his class. You know, give him a challenge instead of stopping him from participating.
What's next? Should I drop to follow if the Cleric behaves according to his deity and alignment? Because that prevents him from using his power as he pleases. Same argument. Class restrictions are there for a reason. And if you don't like em, maybe don't pick em (as player).
It's like picking Vow of Poverty and complaining about the restrictions.
I say it again: If you don't like religious restrictions, maybe don't play a religious character.



After you've gone after a spellbook or told a cleric he can't prepare spells because he doesn't know the time once your players will default to taking precautions against those because they're not fun.
The typical "cat & mice" game between DM and Players. That's a big part of 3.5
Both parties get more and more tools over the levels to annoy each other. ;)



And as soon as that happens the option is off the table for you in 99% of cases anyway unless you're willing to go into blatant DM-fiat.
Which turns it into a WBL tax so minor it's barely even worth noting on your character sheet, so you may as well skip it from the get-go.
So called "Taxes" can be found everywhere in 3.5. Take "feat taxes" as simple example. Or WBL taxes like getting an option to fly on a melee character. The questions are always, "if and when" you address such things and when the DM decides maybe to penalize you for not taking care of the problem/shortcoming.
That's why most wizards will start to take measurements for their spellbook to be prepared, or to deny the DM the option at all (by bypassing the normal spellbook somehow).
Why shouldn't Clerics be burden with such things a bit too?



There's also no shortage of ways to hamper casters that aren't blatantly unfun for the player.
If you want to stop your casters from preparing spells because they're imprisoned give them a prison warden who'll interrupt them. Give them an enemy, something to fight against and plot around. Not a binary "you can't prepare spells here because i don't want you to".

Are we playing "My little Pony" here?
As said, 3.5 is brutal when it comes to shutting down players. Everybody gets its share. Rust Monsters, Oozes and Beholders are there for a reason in 3.5

Keeping track of the daytime is just often the first step for a cleric in this long cat and mice game with the DM.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The typical "cat & mice" game between DM and Players. That's a big part of 3.5
Both parties get more and more tools over the levels to annoy each other. ;)
If that's an attitude you actively cultivate we're playing in very different groups. I prefer the DM as an impartial storyteller instead of an active antagonist trying to troll his players.


So called "Taxes" can be found everywhere in 3.5. Take "feat taxes" as simple example. Or WBL taxes like getting an option to fly on a melee character. The questions are always, "if and when" you address such things and when the DM decides maybe to penalize you for not taking care of the problem/shortcoming.
That's why most wizards will start to take measurements for their spellbook to be prepared, or to deny the DM the option at all (by bypassing the normal spellbook somehow).
Why shouldn't Clerics be burden with such things a bit too?

Because it adds nothing to the game. We're not playing the game to be burdened, we're playing to have fun.
Does the wizard player have fun not being able to wizard? I doubt it. Does the rest of the party have fun dragging along the deadweight commoner? Probably not.
So if nobody gets anything out of the wizard and DM playing the "protect the spellbook" minigame why would i include it?

I'm also not in favor of "penalizing" players for their build decisions or punishing them for playing T1 casters. NPCs should do things for in-character reasons, not meta ones.

And it's not like you're doing the melee classes a favor. They'd rather have buffs and spell support than have to carry Mr. Useless for the sake of "fairness".

[Gruftzwerg]

If that's an attitude you actively cultivate we're playing in very different groups. I prefer the DM as an impartial storyteller instead of an active antagonist trying to troll his players.
It's one of the aspects of playing 3.5. It's not the sole aspect. As said, your players shouldn't feel tortured every time. But if you don't use these mechanics, you just narrow down your story telling options.
And if you manage to use these mechanics successfully, it can be a nice personal sidequest for a character to overcome this weakness.





Because it adds nothing to the game. We're not playing the game to be burdened, we're playing to have fun.
Does the wizard player have fun not being able to wizard? I doubt it. Does the rest of the party have fun dragging along the deadweight commoner? Probably not.
So if nobody gets anything out of the wizard and DM playing the "protect the spellbook" minigame why would i include it?

I'm also not in favor of "penalizing" players for their build decisions or punishing them for playing T1 casters. NPCs should do things for in-character reasons, not meta ones.

Nobody forces you to play a "burdened" class. But stop demanding DM fiat as default assumption to play such a class.
Not every table ignores those mechanics. Things like cleric, paladin, vow of poverty have their burdens for exact that reason. To be a burdened class/feat (which maybe allows the class/feat to be more powerful due to this burden) is exactly the point/intention here.

[Jay R]

A. It's perfectly valid to have a situation in which some ability of the PC is inoperative for awhile. Sometimes Superman loses his powers, or Green Lantern can't re-charge his ring, or the away team loses their communicators and phasers. That's a challenging and exciting short adventure.


47. A short-term curse is an interesting challenge to overcome. A long-term curse is just an annoyance. Have the curse dispelled before it gets boring.

Similarly, you can have them go a day without new spells, but it should be the exception, fun to play out once or twice -- not the main aspect of the entire dungeon crawl.

----

B. It's not up to you to figure out how they can tell time. That's their job.


5. It's your job to build the problem. It's their job to find a solution. If you create a death trap with only one solution, then then they cannot get out unless they figure out what your one solution is. But if you build a death trap with no solutions, then any clever plan they come up with might work.
a. Do not confuse a death trap with no solutions with a death trap that cannot be solved. No resemblance.

Similarly, listen to their ideas for how to tell time. Let one of them work. The brilliant PC idea should come from a player, not the DM.

----

C. When the party comes to town and carouses all night, they will wake up long after dawn. If they can still get their spells that day, then they should still be able to get their spells in a dungeon after they lost track of time.

[Ashtagon]

Hourglasses don't stop working underground.

At the risk of killing catgirls, a sand timer that is being carried while walking will run unpredictably, even if kept perfectly upright, due to the up-down motion imparted from walking motion. The same will be true if you are travelling uphill or downhill.

[Metastachydium]

At the risk of killing catgirls

KILL ALL CATGIRLS!! (No, seriously, just KILL THEM ALL! (I love science.))

[Beni-Kujaku]

At the risk of killing catgirls, a sand timer that is being carried while walking will run unpredictably, even if kept perfectly upright, due to the up-down motion imparted from walking motion. The same will be true if you are travelling uphill or downhill.

Hm. Well I'll be damned. I also have a few spare catgirls, so feel free to correct me again in the future, I love learning things I thought were true are false.

[RNightstalker]

There's nothing to keep track of though. Time in D&D passes at the speed of narration, and that's in the hands of the DM.

He either has a way to tell the time - in which case he'll simply tell you "i wait until dawn and prepare my spells" - or he doesn't, in which case he won't prepare any spells at all.
It's not even a burden, it's simply a binary "you don't get to play your class in this dungeon" choice.

Being a caster without spells doesn't make them useless...vulnerable sure, but not useless...If I wanted to be a jerk I'd put them in the Time of Troubles...:smallbiggrin:


Well, there is the option to just start praying at any point and keep praying until you get spells. Obviously dependent on the circumstances, but it works and also resets your clocks if they're gotten out of sync.
I mean, what's your intent in asking this question then? :smalltongue: Are you trying to figure out how to foil all practical methods of timekeeping to make the module more punishing?

The module I'm doing has designed for and encouraged having circumstances to make it more difficult to get the rest needed to study spells for the day, or interrupt the normal time of praying for spells.

I guess I wasn't getting the expected answers but now I know how to ask the question again differently. Is there a mechanic in place, be it house-rule or something official, that addresses this situation? Is there a percentile/roll table for how the characters perceive the passage of time? I'm not trying to foil the players/characters, but I am trying to be prepared. I've got a great table that has a crap ton of fun and it's humorous sometimes when they actually foil me...I don't throw books (yet) but I will say "oh you found something!" and proceed to (in jest) raise the bird to them from behind the screen, and everybody laughs and we move on.



DM fiat is simply that: DM Fiat!


Thanks, and I posted this thread to hopefully get some ideas for said fiat lol.



A character can keep track of time, but unless you play through every single round in the day a player simply can't. Because the flow of (out of combat) time is decided by the DM.

It doesn't matter how your character keeps time, just that he has a way to do so. Be it buffs, magical items recharging, a Firmament Stone or your god personally calling you for your daily prayer session. You tell your DM your character is tracking time and doing something when time is X.

I'm also not sure where your obsession with fighters is coming from. Fighters are bad. It's common knowledge. Does that mean everyone else needs to be bad too?
The game assumes a party with spellcasters for a reason. And making a strong class unfun to play is a terrible balance approach.

CAN they keep track of time without the usual methods of sundial, tides, etc? This thread isn't about me dropping my mighty hammer of DM authority to determine the flow of time; it's about what to do/how to deal with situations the characters will face if they can't accurately track time.



Count yourself lucky no one is playing a Wizard, and the Cleric didn't pick a deity with the travel domain. Otherwise, the group could just Greater Teleport in and out of the dungeon. For that matter, they could Greater Teleport to a time zone where it's the right time of day for the Cleric to prepare spells.

That would be great if teleportation worked properly in this module...which it doesn't.


Because i don't have to make sure, i just have to not go out of my way to fabricate such a situation. Because - as this thread has established - keeping track of time is easy, so the situations where it comes up naturally are vanishingly rare.

If the content is easy enough that the cleric still has enough leftover spells for an entire day maybe you should make combat harder instead of preventing him from playing his class. You know, give him a challenge instead of stopping him from participating.

And as soon as that happens the option is off the table for you in 99% of cases anyway unless you're willing to go into blatant DM-fiat.
Which turns it into a WBL tax so minor it's barely even worth noting on your character sheet, so you may as well skip it from the get-go.

There's also no shortage of ways to hamper casters that aren't blatantly unfun for the player.
If you want to stop your casters from preparing spells because they're imprisoned give them a prison warden who'll interrupt them. Give them an enemy, something to fight against and plot around. Not a binary "you can't prepare spells here because i don't want you to".

I'm not going out of my way to fabricate a situation. I'm having a little foresight and looking ahead to be prepared when the characters face this situation.

What's this infatuation with casters being completely worthless without their spells, like they can no longer participate because they ran out of spells?! There are spell storing and trigger items, physical weapons...Being a caster doesn't mean you're a one-trick pony, because if you are, that same old routine can get really old really quick. There's no intent to go "you can't cast spells because you can't prepare spells" for no reason. IF...IF I did that, there would be a reason but that's not going on here.


The problem with caster limitations like prayer timing or losing a spellbook is that they're too binary. If an ubercharger who can't fly meets a flying enemy, he can get out a bow, and still have at least a basic level of competence with it: Even if none of his feats and such apply, he still has proficiency and full BAB. And he'll probably also be able to contribute at full effectiveness in the next encounter.

On the other hand, if you do something to a caster to take away his spells, he can do nothing in this encounter, and nothing in the next encounter, all day.

Taking away some of a character's power is fine, and can increase fun. Taking away all of a character's power, though, decreases fun. You never want to decrease fun.

I'm starting to agree with some of the comments about pampering casters...it's not the end of the world if you run out of spells once or twice...heaven forbid they encounter a Dead Magic Zone! Players need to have these things called backups, which leads me to...


Is it binary? Shouldn't good spellcasters have wands and scrolls for backup?

You're not trying to make sense there are you?!

Yes, they should. They should also have utility items and these things called weapons!


If that's an attitude you actively cultivate we're playing in very different groups. I prefer the DM as an impartial storyteller instead of an active antagonist trying to troll his players.

Because it adds nothing to the game. We're not playing the game to be burdened, we're playing to have fun.
Does the wizard player have fun not being able to wizard? I doubt it. Does the rest of the party have fun dragging along the deadweight commoner? Probably not.
So if nobody gets anything out of the wizard and DM playing the "protect the spellbook" minigame why would i include it?

I'm also not in favor of "penalizing" players for their build decisions or punishing them for playing T1 casters. NPCs should do things for in-character reasons, not meta ones.

And it's not like you're doing the melee classes a favor. They'd rather have buffs and spell support than have to carry Mr. Useless for the sake of "fairness".

I'm not an impartial story teller. I play with people who are my friends or becoming friends. I tell new people upfront: "we're on the same team to have fun."
There's MORE to being a wizard than casting spells. Sure, it's a pretty big chunk of it for all of the T1 casters. Having knowledge skills to help identify monsters and their strengths and weaknesses can save the combat characters a bunch of time and heartache. Druids can wild shape and normally have animal companions...clerics can almost singlehandedly negate the threat of undead.



Dunno about you, but losing gear is a DM trophy that comes up from time to time. Just think about Oozes and Rust Monsters. 3.5 has inbuild options to destroy and take away player gear. Why should a DM never use such things?
Again.. I'm not suggesting to torture your players with such things at every session. But if they never struggle, they won't appreciate the "good times". Therefore this is a good stroy telling trophy imho. If you never use it, you just narrow down your good story telling options.

The typical "cat & mice" game between DM and Players. That's a big part of 3.5
Both parties get more and more tools over the levels to annoy each other. ;)


Are we playing "My little Pony" here?
As said, 3.5 is brutal when it comes to shutting down players. Everybody gets its share. Rust Monsters, Oozes and Beholders are there for a reason in 3.5

Keeping track of the daytime is just often the first step for a cleric in this long cat and mice game with the DM.

My dad one time had a bookworm lock my wizard's spellbook so he couldn't access it. it was a nice learning experience especially as it was a simple fix and actually made money off of it they way my dad ran it.

Cat and mouse...could it be we play games within the games? Yes people can annoy one another but if it's not received well hopefully you can intercept the issue before it gets out of hand. I've got a great group and I've never had as much fun playing D&D than with these guys and gal.

[rel]

A PC with even a single rank of survival can unerringly find north. Given that general level of competence, an easy skill check should allow a PC to tell the current time.

I've discussed the idea further and consensus in my circles is a DC 20 survival check is about right for accurately determining the time with no obvious local tells. with lower check results giving a progressively less accurate estimate.

Outside the range of reliable competence for the average survivalist character at level 1, but easily manageable for a character of level 5.

We didn't reach agreement on how hard it should be to tell the prime material time when on an entirely different plane, with the two most popular suggestions being DC 25 and DC 30, so I recommend splitting the difference and going with a DC 27. Doable by the average 10th level survivalist.

[Gruftzwerg]

Thanks, and I posted this thread to hopefully get some ideas for said fiat lol.

Sorry if I got the intention wrong here, since you asked someone if he doesn't make it to easy for the players...^^


My dad one time had a bookworm lock my wizard's spellbook so he couldn't access it. it was a nice learning experience especially as it was a simple fix and actually made money off of it they way my dad ran it.
That's why I say that these things can be great story telling tools for the DM if he uses them in the right way as you dad did.



Cat and mouse...could it be we play games within the games? Yes people can annoy one another but if it's not received well hopefully you can intercept the issue before it gets out of hand. I've got a great group and I've never had as much fun playing D&D than with these guys and gal.
As said, it should feel like a fun minigame and shouldn't turn into torture. Like when good friends tease each other a bit (or play pranks on each other) so that both can laugh, and not sole one.



I've discussed the idea further and consensus in my circles is a DC 20 survival check is about right for accurately determining the time with no obvious local tells. with lower check results giving a progressively less accurate estimate.

Outside the range of reliable competence for the average survivalist character at level 1, but easily manageable for a character of level 5.

We didn't reach agreement on how hard it should be to tell the prime material time when on an entirely different plane, with the two most popular suggestions being DC 25 and DC 30, so I recommend splitting the difference and going with a DC 27. Doable by the average 10th level survivalist.

Good point and nice values for the DCs underground. I would support such options to solve issues like this.

[RNightstalker]

I'm also not sure where your obsession with fighters is coming from. Fighters are bad. It's common knowledge. Does that mean everyone else needs to be bad too?
The game assumes a party with spellcasters for a reason. And making a strong class unfun to play is a terrible balance approach.

Fighters aren't bad. They're just not likable for power-hungry min-maxers that want to be all powerful. They're fun to play if you know how to play them, and you're ok not being the star of the show that can call down the heavens alter physics and time, etc.


If that's an attitude you actively cultivate we're playing in very different groups. I prefer the DM as an impartial storyteller instead of an active antagonist trying to troll his players.


Because it adds nothing to the game. We're not playing the game to be burdened, we're playing to have fun.
Does the wizard player have fun not being able to wizard? I doubt it. Does the rest of the party have fun dragging along the deadweight commoner? Probably not.
So if nobody gets anything out of the wizard and DM playing the "protect the spellbook" minigame why would i include it?

I'm also not in favor of "penalizing" players for their build decisions or punishing them for playing T1 casters. NPCs should do things for in-character reasons, not meta ones.

And it's not like you're doing the melee classes a favor. They'd rather have buffs and spell support than have to carry Mr. Useless for the sake of "fairness".

So what happens in a Dead Magic Zone?


A. It's perfectly valid to have a situation in which some ability of the PC is inoperative for awhile. Sometimes Superman loses his powers, or Green Lantern can't re-charge his ring, or the away team loses their communicators and phasers. That's a challenging and exciting short adventure.

Similarly, you can have them go a day without new spells, but it should be the exception, fun to play out once or twice -- not the main aspect of the entire dungeon crawl.

----
B. It's not up to you to figure out how they can tell time. That's their job.

Similarly, listen to their ideas for how to tell time. Let one of them work. The brilliant PC idea should come from a player, not the DM.

----

C. When the party comes to town and carouses all night, they will wake up long after dawn. If they can still get their spells that day, then they should still be able to get their spells in a dungeon after they lost track of time.

See this is good stuff right there. You don't happen to have a link for your rules for DMs do you?


KILL ALL CATGIRLS!! (No, seriously, just KILL THEM ALL! (I love science.))

Totally reminds me of a GDQ event a while ago where people were donating to save the animals or KILL THE ANIMALS! lol


I've discussed the idea further and consensus in my circles is a DC 20 survival check is about right for accurately determining the time with no obvious local tells. with lower check results giving a progressively less accurate estimate.

Outside the range of reliable competence for the average survivalist character at level 1, but easily manageable for a character of level 5.

We didn't reach agreement on how hard it should be to tell the prime material time when on an entirely different plane, with the two most popular suggestions being DC 25 and DC 30, so I recommend splitting the difference and going with a DC 27. Doable by the average 10th level survivalist.

See now we're getting somewhere. This is good stuff. Where's the like button for that comment? This will help a great deal.


Sorry if I got the intention wrong here, since you asked someone if he doesn't make it to easy for the players...^^

I think I was being sarcastic and forgot to put that in blue. I have fun being an antagonist to the players/party. But at the same time when basic CR 1 or less undead were thrown into the path of the party with a RSoP, I essentially had the cleric stop rolling the turn attempt, mark it off, and just narrated the undead being turned to dust by the holy light.

[Jay R]

See this is good stuff right there. You don't happen to have a link for your rules for DMs do you?

Not a current one. Here is the list (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25053571&postcount=1) as it was back in 2021. It’s grown since then; I’m now up to 51 rules.

These rules were written for myself, for the way I run games. I am not saying that anybody else “should” run a game this way. These rules exist to help me be consistent, and so my players can know what to expect.

Anybody else is free to use them as guidelines, to modify them, to use some but not others, or to ignore them altogether, as seems best to you. Not everybody agrees on how to run a game, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Some of them are serious, some are deliberately exaggerated for comic effect, but all of them are actual considerations when designing or running a world.