Order of the Stick: October II

[eof]

or sleep. he looks incredibly fatigued.

and of course hes suffered damage. see the cuts on his face? shuriken are sharp....


hehehe roy has boobies ;D
Yes, he has suffered two points out of his total of 10 or more. See above.

Edit: Fixed typo.

[Rawhide]

*does the math*

Hmm, 1 point of damage. Enchantment of a maximum of +5, x2 critical, that looks like a maximum of 12 points of damage.

Oh, oh, I almost forgot, sneak damage.

[Gwain]

Poison 1d6/1d6 CON?

Elan got 1 minute before suffering the secondary poison Damage, no?

Which could bring him to 0 Con, that's why Roy must hurry, in my toughts.

[eof]

*does the math*

Hmm, 1 point of damage. Enchantment of a maximum of +5, x2 critical, that looks like a maximum of 12 points of damage.

Oh, oh, I almost forgot, sneak damage.

;D You're funny. I kind of expected someone to bring up stuff like that, but didn't feel like making the argument against it in advance.

You're a DM, right? If you really allow sneak attack damage, or critical hits for that matter, when attacking someone with total cover and you don't even know where they are... well, I'm not sure if I'd really want to play in your games, or if I really would not want to. Even if you'd just consider the door to be total concealment (rather than cover) the attacker would have 50% miss chance and must guess target's location, etc. I sure wouldn't give any chance of critical or sneak damage when attacking in that manner, and I'd have the attacks deal minimum damage at most (or maybe just one point). But that's just me, and I wish you well with (N)PCs making critical hit sneak attacks through doors against targets they don't even know are there. ;)

And yeah, and the assassin might have X-ray goggles or somesuch, and so on. The shuriken might also be enchanted with 1,000 Wishes and when Elan dies the universe goes with him... since we're reaching for straws. ;)

And for the record, a shuriken +5 costs (3.0) 50,301 GP (neglecting the cost for the poison, which is unknown), and three shuriken therefore cost 150,903 GP. That means that the attacker, on average, would be around 14th level and have channeled all his wealth into those three shuriken, in order to make three attacks per battle, each dealing 6 points of damage and delivering one dose of poison each, if it hits. It's not like getting a Composite Shortbow +1 for 2,375 GP and 50 Arrows +1 for 2,350 GP sounds like a better deal or anything. If you additionally assume that the first three shuriken also were +5, you have a total cost of 301,806 GP, putting the assassin at level 16+, again with all money channeled into those shuriken. Does this make sense to you? Not to me.

I don't want to be rude, but really, if you gonna argue against what I said (and let me again point out that it is just a guess) you could at least do so with points that appear at least remotedly valid.

[boolean]

Oh, oh, I almost forgot, sneak damage.

They had concealment from the attacker. (The smoke, the closet door.) So no sneak attack.

The big question: Are these 3.0 shuriken? The attacker is consistently throwing three each time.

3.0 shuriken: 3 per volley. 1 damage each. No strength bonus to damage.

3.5 shuriken: 1 per attack, but monks can flurry. 1d2 damage each. Adds strength bonus to damage.

[eof]

Poison 1d6/1d6 CON?

Elan got 1 minute before suffering the secondary poison Damage, no?

Which could bring him to 0 Con, that's why Roy must hurry, in my toughts.
The point is, once more, that CON damage can't put Elan into the state he is currently in. See my posts above. Therefore it is unlikely to actually have been CON poison (by the rules).

[Rawhide]

Only one of the shuriken needed to be +5 (or +4, +4 would get you your 10 damage)

There are also several spells and abilities that could potentally counter it:

He could be scrying into the room.

True Strike would also give a +20 to hit, thus helping to ensure that the shot would not miss (helping, and it would not negate any miss chance).

I know of some other spells that negate or remove miss chance, but I am not about to go look them up over such a silly discussion, all I was did was add up the maths.

He may have blindsight or tremorsense from a feat, spell or racial ability.

(How on earth did I get sucked into an overanalysis discussion?)

Though, I would like to know how they got through that door...

[DeathQuaker]

True, except that the (3.0) DMG does not list any such poison.

AS I SAID BEFORE :) There ARE several poisons listed in that have unconsciousness (or paralysis) as side effects. They are in the core rulebook. So it is a possibility, and a distinct one at that.

If you don't have the 3.5 rulebooks, the Hypertext d20 is your friend. Google it. :)

[Rawhide]

3.0 shuriken: 3 per volley. 1 damage each. No strength bonus to damage.

3.5 shuriken: 1 per attack, but monks can flurry. 1d2 damage each. Adds strength bonus to damage.

Very good point, I was thinking of 3.0, they then only need to be +3, or not even that after str.

[eof]

The big question: Are these 3.0 shuriken? The attacker is consistently throwing three each time.

3.0 shuriken: 3 per volley. 1 damage each. No strength bonus to damage.

3.5 shuriken: 1 per attack, but monks can flurry. 1d2 damage each. Adds strength bonus to damage.
3.5 shuriken would make the scenario possible.

Elan was hit twice. If he's at level 10, he has at least 10 HP, and must on average have taken 5 points per shuriken that hit. Since the shuriken themselves on average deal 3 damage together (even after passing through a door?), the attacker's STR bonus added to any magical bonus of the shuriken must total +4 or more, and even more if Elan is, say, level 12.

It is possible that the shuriken are enchanted, but likely weakly so (+1 maybe) if at all. I'd say that the shurikens' main purpose is to deliver the poison, not to damage the target, so my guess is that they aren't enchanted.

Neither attacker seems to be a spellcaster, so damage bonuses from spells are unlikely. They could have drunk some potions before attacking, though, that is entirely plausible and likely, so the Shadowdancer's STR bonus might be +5 or better, making it possible that a combination of a lot CON damage and the HP damage from the shuriken put Elan at zero HP or less. (In this case, he's clearly in great risk of dying if he fails his next saves, and with a reduced CON score, it is very likely.)

I'll concede that 3.5 shuriken, as described above, make the scenario in the comic possible.

[Rawhide]

And for the record, a shuriken +5 costs (3.0) 50,301 GP (neglecting the cost for the poison, which is unknown), and three shuriken therefore cost 150,903 GP.

Just for the record, a pack of 5 +5 Shuriken cost 51,501 gp (10,300.2 each)

Shuriken costs from E-Tools (packs of 5)
+5 Shuriken (5) (51,501 gp)
+4 Shuriken (5) (33,501 gp)
+3 Shuriken (5) (19,501 gp)
+2 Shuriken (5) (9,501 gp)
+1 Shuriken (5) (3,501 gp)

[Nikolai_II]

That was my first thought as well. And while, on the one hand, I'd like to see all sexual orientations get fair representation in fantasy, on the other I don't really like the idea of Miko being the representative of queer women. (Not that I'm a Miko hater. I just don't think she makes a good first impression.)


But she doesn't have to be a lesbian to start appreciating Roy now. It could just as well be that she sees the sacrifice he would make for a friend and understand that even as he is pretty bad with words (many of which she does not understand correctly) he is still a champion in shining armor.

I know my respect for Roy has notched up considerably.

[eof]

Only one of the shuriken needed to be +5 (or +4, +4 would get you your 10 damage)

There are also several spells and abilities that could potentally counter it:

He could be scrying into the room.

True Strike would also give a +20 to hit, thus helping to ensure that the shot would not miss (helping, and it would not negate any miss chance).

I know of some other spells that negate or remove miss chance, but I am not about to go look them up over such a silly discussion, all I was did was add up the maths.

He may have blindsight or tremorsense from a feat, spell or racial ability.

(How on earth did I get sucked into an overanalysis discussion?)

Though, I would like to know how they got through that door...

This answer assumes the 3.0 version of shuriken, as they appearently cost more than the 3.5 version. General points still hold.

At +4 they are cheaper, but it still would not make sense to pour that much money into a few items. Is it possible to do so? Yes. Would that be sensible? No. Also, my 10 HP for Elan is based on the assumption that he's at least 10th level; if he's 12th, they still need to be +5.

Is scrying plausible in your opinion? True Strike for +20 makes more sense, since it's a low-level spell. Blindsight and tremorsense.. again reaching for straws. And in all of those cases, given that he would be able to counter the fact that he couldn't see into the room, he still fails to attack Roy and instead goes for Elan!?

[eof]

AS I SAID BEFORE :) There ARE several poisons listed in that have unconsciousness (or paralysis) as side effects. They are in the core rulebook. So it is a possibility, and a distinct one at that.

If you don't have the 3.5 rulebooks, the Hypertext d20 is your friend. Google it. :)
Well, I'm looking right now, and I still can find no poison that deals both paralysis initially and delayed CON damage. The only thing that even comes close initially deals 1 CON and delayed effect causes unconsciousness.

[eof]

Just for the record, a pack of 5 +5 Shuriken cost 51,501 gp (10,300.2 each)

Shuriken costs from E-Tools (packs of 5)
+5 Shuriken (5) (51,501 gp)
+4 Shuriken (5) (33,501 gp)
+3 Shuriken (5) (19,501 gp)
+2 Shuriken (5) (9,501 gp)
+1 Shuriken (5) (3,501 gp)
Well, I pointed out that the price I listed was according to 3.0 rules. It is a good thing that it is changed in 3.5 (if that is what E-Tools follows, I'm not familiar with the program other than that I know it exists), it was rather ridiculous as it was.

Having said that, you didn't say if you thought it made sense to buy shurikens +5 for 50,301 GP each rather than a Composite Shortbow +1 and 50 Arrows +1 for less than 5,000 GP. Now that we've established that three shuriken +5 will only cost you 30,900.6 GP according to the 3.5 rules, perhaps you could comment on how likely you think it is that the assassin has +5 shurikens? Edit: Or +3 for that matter? Several? Lots?

[Rawhide]

To be honest, I don't care. Its a comic strip, a funny one at that. If it serves the purpose of the plot, the character will have it (or not have it as required).

Additionally, as Rich stated in the FAQ:

Writer and Babylon 5 creator J. Michael Straczynski had a standard answer for overzealous fans who would ask him obscure questions like, “How fast does a Starfury (the show’s standard fighter ship) fly?” He would say, “They travel at the speed of plot,” meaning that if the script called for them to get somewhere in a certain amount of time, they could—and if the script called for them to get there too late, they couldn’t. The Order of the Stick travels almost exclusively at the speed of plot.
http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq7

[Hydro]

;D You're funny. I kind of expected someone to bring up stuff like that, but didn't feel like making the argument against it in advance.

You're a DM, right? If you really allow sneak attack damage, or critical hits for that matter, when attacking someone with total cover and you don't even know where they are... well, I'm not sure if I'd really want to play in your games, or if I really would not want to.

If you roll a 20 on the attack roll against a foe susceptable to critical hits, you are entitled to attempt to confirm the crit (with all the same penalties on the confirmation roll that were on the origional attack roll). Period.

I think it is perfectly reasonable to assume that it is possible to hit a vital spot on a humanoid opponent by accident with a blind attack (possible, but not likely, due to the penalties on the confirm roll) and would not houserule this aspect of the game. In fact, it is especially likely that one or both of the shiruken scored a critical hit because it is likely that the ninja needed to roll very high to hit him anyway. He just got lucky.

I do not think it is.. that unreasonable to houserule that attacks made through full concealment or cover are less dangerous. However, I do think that your proposed houserules on the subject are very clumsy to say the least, and it is unreasonable to refuse to play in any game which follows the core rules over such an insignifigant point. Or, for that matter, to say that you would refuse to play in any game which follows the core rules, simply to gain the upperhand in an arguement. To say nothing of the implication that anyone who would not rule the same way that you do on the issue is somehow insufficient or unsatistfactory as a dm.



While I'm entering the debate, I might as well point out that we have no guarantee that Elan was at full health when the shiruken struck him. They haven't rested in quite a while, and Elan in particular was having trouble keeping his eyes open, as you may remember:
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=224
(edit: how do you do auto-links? >> )

Further, we don't know what rules the giant is using for sleep deprivation and exhaustion, but it appears that he is using something (see the above link). It would not be unreasonable to assume that these rules are keyed to the constitution score, and thus that a drastic reduction in cone could knock someone from 'fatigued' or 'exhausted' to 'unconscious'.

Also, while they do not appear to be energy shiruken and are not likely to be +5 or even +4 shiruken, they could easily be, say.. +1 merciful shiruken (2 points of damage plus 1d6 subdual each), easily enough to knock a low-con Elan off his feet. And what's the name of the property that deals an additional +2d6 point of damage to the target and 1d6 to the wielder? Vicious?


And finally, though it should have been noted several times by now, the Giant does not tend to over-analyze things. He probably had Elan fall down just because, well.. when someone is dying of poison in real life or stories, they tend to fall down. Even though there are several reasonable ways in which two shiruken carrying poisons that deal constitution damage could have taken Elan off his feet.


In other words, this whole debate is fairly silly.

[Hydro]

Oh, just wanted to add that by the core rules, you can't shoot through full cover. The shiruken hit the door, and even if together they deal enough damage to tear it down (a somewhat silly image) they wouldn't hit Elan.

So it is likely that the dm is using some houserules here anyway, and/or that the assassins are imploying magic that we don't know about.


Forgot to mention this in my first post. Not the most convincing point listed, but I still wanted to add it.

[Samiam303]

I don't know if this was mentioned before, but the shuriken was probably not meant for Elan. Therefore, I would doubt that the ninjas were using True strike or some other spell that increases accuracy. I think they just missed and glto lucky.

[Ellisthion]

People keep mentioning that a 10th level Elan would have min 10 hp.
But first level is always max hp.
So, if we assume 3 con (hahaha) and rolls of 1-5 for lvls 2-10, he has 14 hp.
But since he DOESN'T have 3 Con (rather silly), his hp are more likely to be twice that.

He is hit and poisoned by the shurikens because that is what the story demands.

[RebelRogue]

I don't think I can explain this any clearer, sorry. The trickiest ability to handle changes in, especially reductions, is IMO CON, because of the min 1 HP per level rule. INT doesn't cause any retroactive changes (additional/reduced skill points for previously gained levels or additional/reduced number of languages known), and STR, DEX, WIS and CHA all pretty much have uses based on current score. CON is the exception, and it shows. I require my players to write down all HP rolls they've made in order to apply this rule correctly. If you don't do that and some character's CON drops (significantly) below 10, you can either A) make educated guesses, B) ignore the min 1 HP per level rule or C) consider yourself screwed.
You've slightly misunderstood the rule. Back in 2nd edition, we also kept strict records of what hp rolls were made at what level (for dealing with energy drain and stuff). However, in 3.5 this is not necessary anymore. True, there's a lower limit to maximum hp given by you hit dice, but that does not mean that you're assured to get a minimum of 1 hp for each level! That may sound contradictory, but it's not: let's say that you've got a Con of 10 and rolled a 1 for a given level, resulting in a total of 1 hp for that level. When you lose a point of Con (making your modifier -1) your max hit points drop by your level even though you couldn't have gotten any less hit points for the level in question! Yes, having rolled low hp scores now sucks more than ever!

Also, when you're permanently energy drained, you just roll a die of the appropriate kind and subtract! It really suck to roll more than you got in the first place, but that's the rules! (You would have to keep track of the order you've gained the levels in if you multiclass, though).

[Kasur]

Enough rules, ppl. The Giant have his owns.
I wonder if we will ever can see the aparience of she-Roy :o

[eof]

To be honest, I don't care. Its a comic strip, a funny one at that. If it serves the purpose of the plot, the character will have it (or not have it as required).

Additionally, as Rich stated in the FAQ:
http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq7

And the option of the poison actually being a STR poison and only mistaken for a CON poison opposes the plot how, exactly? I can't think of anything that it would disallow--if anything it can add a slight twist to the plot.

I am aware that Rich takes liberties with the rules in order to write a funnier comic, and I totally respect that. The way I see it, I pointed out that from a rules perspective the situation did not (by 3.0 rules at least) make sense (and that maybe it wasn't a CON poison). I didn't say it was wrong for Rich to do so, I didn't berate him for it, I only pointed it out and suggested an alternative that made sense--who knows, maybe it actually isn't a CON poison! You responded that the assassin possibly has multiple +5 shuriken, and then the situation makes sense (by inference, from a rules perspective). I then say that it does not make sense, again from a rules perspective, that the assassin has multiple +5 shuriken. To be honest, this wasn't the discussion I had in mind when I made that first post.

[Amalthea]

Girdle of Femininity/Masculinity. It effects women too, you know. (And "Feminity" is simply misspelled.)

Feminity (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=feminity) is a valid word.

[Eriol]

Enough rules, ppl. The Giant have his owns.
Exactly guys. They all do enough damage to advance the plot, no more, and no less.

great cleavage...

[eof]

Ok, this is clearly getting out of hand. I'll respond to this post, and then stop, since it obviously risks becoming something of a flame war. Let's say you win.


If you roll a 20 on the attack roll against a foe susceptable to critical hits, you are entitled to attempt to confirm the crit (with all the same penalties on the confirmation roll that were on the origional attack roll). Period.

Ok, then let me attempt to rephrase what I said pertaining to this particular situation in a more general manner: If an attack effectively deals any significant damage, I certainly will allow any threat roll to possibly also deal critical damage. Then, read below.


I think it is perfectly reasonable to assume that it is possible to hit a vital spot on a humanoid opponent by accident with a blind attack (possible, but not likely, due to the penalties on the confirm roll) and would not houserule this aspect of the game. In fact, it is especially likely that one or both of the shiruken scored a critical hit because it is likely that the ninja needed to roll very high to hit him anyway. He just got lucky.

If we assume that he needed a natural 20 to even hit, yes, I'd say he got lucky indeed to score two critical hits. I'm not in a mood to calculate the chances of two critical hits and one miss, but I believe they are less than 1:80,000.


I do not think it is.. that unreasonable to houserule that attacks made through full concealment or cover are less dangerous. However, I do think that your proposed houserules on the subject are very clumsy to say the least, and it is unreasonable to refuse to play in any game which follows the core rules over such an insignifigant point. Or, for that matter, to say that you would refuse to play in any game which follows the core rules simply. To say nothing of the implication that anyone who would not rule the same way that you do on the issue is somehow insufficient or unsatistfactory as a dm.

Very well. Let's take this one point by point. First of all, let me say that it was not my intention to insult Rawhide, and I apologize if insult was taken. This, however, does not mean that I agree with what he said. I think his many of his arguments were weak, and some of them I strongly disagree with on a more fundamental basis than that they were weak.

You say you don't "think it is.. that unreasonable to houserule that attacks made through full concealment or cover are less dangerous," and that "[my] proposed houserules on the subject are very clumsy to say the least."

Well, let me first point out that I would not consider those house rules, but rather a DM ad hoc ruling. That might be the reason why you find it very clumsy; it was in no way meant to be a cover-it-all houserule, but something that applied in that particular situation. If such occurances became common, I'd surely put more thought into the matter than the equivalent of an ad hoc decision. First of all I wouldn't allow aimed attacks through total cover, as it is (as you point out in your next post) forbidden in the rules; I would, on the other hand, allow blind attacks through total cover (attacking and hoping to hit something), but I certainly would not allow full damage. At a very minimum I would deduct the hardness of the cover from the damage, and probably some additional points depending on the thickness and material of the cover. Now, I understand that applying hardness in this manner is not covered in the book (3.0), at least not as far as I know, maybe because the option of attempting to shoot through a cover isn't considered, but this is what I'd start from. YMMV, and if you wish to apply hardness only when you attempt to destroy a door rather than penetrate it in order to hurt someone on the other side of the door, that's your prerogative.

In this particular case the door's hardness would pretty much cancel out any chance the shurriken has of dealing damage (see below for comments on magical shurriken), IMO, giving credit to the ad hoc ruling above. Therefore, in my game, it wouldn't matter if you score a critical or not--zero damage x2 is still zero. A critical insignificant scratch remains an insignificant scratch. The only reason I'd give any damage at all would be to provide a rationale to how the poison entered the victim's bloodstream. Again, YMMV, and feel free to disagree with me on this point.

As for the rest... "it is unreasonable to refuse to play in any game which follows the core rules over such an insignifigant point. Or, for that matter, to say that you would refuse to play in any game which follows the core rules simply. To say nothing of the implication that anyone who would not rule the same way that you do on the issue is somehow insufficient or unsatistfactory as a dm."

You seem to imply (without claiming it outright, very nice) that I have said something to that effect. I dislike that a lot. Please quote where I say that I would refuse to play in a game that follows the core rules.

In the mean time, let me quote something I actually did say: "If you really allow sneak attack damage, or critical hits for that matter, when attacking someone with total cover and you don't even know where they are... well, I'm not sure if I'd really want to play in your games, or if I really would not want to." I stand by this statement. If this is what you refer to, you've really managed to twist my words.


You can't attack someone with total cover. You said so yourself. I imply as much in the next statement "Even if you'd just consider the door to be total concealment (rather than cover) [...]"
You can't sneak attack someone who you can't see clearly. Someone with total cover obviously qualifies.


Clarify how not adhering to the rules above is consistant with your "follows the core rules" comment. You might also clarify how you consider them "such an insignifigant point."

What I said about critical hits is debatable, but as I say above, I would not object to a DM who allows it in similar scenarios generally speaking, but in this particular instance I would not agree with his ruling. Since there are no rules about firing blindly into a location (through cover, no less!) without knowing where your targets are, the DM really has no option but make ad hoc rulings, and in this case I think that if the shuriken made it through the door at all, it certainly would no longer pick any punch--enough to scratch him and poison him, certainly, but deal significant damage, no. If Elan had been pressed against the door, it would have been a different story when it comes to damage. When it comes to hitting your targets without knowing where they are, I probably wouldn't use hit rolls at all, but rather assign some (low) percent chance of hitting, as you aren't aiming for anything. This is again an ad hoc ruling, so don't hold me to it. If some other DM would make another ruling that makes sense to me, I wouldn't have a problem with it. The situation as described above? Yes, I would.

For completeness, let me say that I would also have issues with a DM who would supply NPCs with multiple magical items that would be worth far more than the NPC could typically afford, especially if those items aren't balanced properly. A level 3 fighter with a Longsword +3 does not make sense to me, nor would a level 14 assassin with three shuriken +5 but no other magical items (not even an armor +1) do so. The problem here is that the PCs never would know what to expect, it all sounds way too ad hoc and random, and the entire setting loses believability. Again, this is my opinion, and if you disagree and want to do things differently, fair enough, but don't expect me to agree with your methods any more than you obviously agree with mine.

Additionally, I am under no obligation to play in any game of any DM, regardless of whether they play by the core rules or not, and I willingly state that. The same holds true for anyone, even my players (although I will state that I've never lost a player due to a ruling so far). If you believe differently, you are deluding yourself.

As for your (again merely hinted at) claim that I imply that a DM must rule in the "way that you do on the issue is somehow insufficient or unsatistfactory as a dm" I again ask you to quote exactly what you refer to. I make no such implication, especially not in a general sense. I sometimes play with another DM, and while I wouldn't always rule the same way he does, I accept it becuase it still makes sense to me. However, I stand by my statement that I would not want to play with a DM that allows sneak attacks through total cover against targets whose location is unknown, and I think that DM is going to have a lot of consistency problems on his/her hands. But that is just me. If that is what that DM's players want, it's up to him/her to decide if they will get it or not. Sufficient and satisfactory is obviously dependant on your target audience, and if that is what works for you, go with it.


While I'm entering the debate, I might as well point out that we have no guarantee that Elan was at full health when the shiruken struck him. They haven't rested in quite a while, and Elan in particular was having trouble keeping his eyes open, as you may remember:
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=224

Neither do we have any reason to believe that Elan would not be at full health.


Further, we don't know what rules the giant is using for sleep deprivation and exhaustion, but it appears that he is using something (see the above link). It would not be unreasonable to assume that these rules are keyed to the constitution score, and thus that a drastic reduction in cone could knock someone from 'fatigued' or 'exhausted' to 'unconscious'.

Now this is the best argument I've heard so far, and one I'd readily accept.


Also, while they do not appear to be energy shiruken and are not likely to be +5 or even +4 shiruken, they could easily be, say.. +1 merciful shiruken (2 points of damage plus 1d6 subdual each), easily enough to knock a low-con Elan off his feet. And what's the name of the property that deals an additional +2d6 point of damage to the target and 1d6 to the wielder? Vicious?

This is again a weaker argument. We have no reason to assume that the shuriken were magical. Face it, except for being "cool" shuriken (3.0 especially, 3.5 seem much better in this regard, but still not good) aren't meant to be efficient weapons. When used as carriers of poison, they are good, or even excellent. If not and you look for a weapon to bring someone down, you typically prefer to get a dagger, or a bow.

I'm not saying it is impossible. However, I think it is implausible. If you use poison you have little use for magical effects; the poison alone does the trick.


And finally, though it should have been noted several times by now, the Giant does not tend to over-analyze things. He probably had Elan fall down just because, well.. when someone is dying of poison in real life or stories, they tend to fall down. Even though there are several reasonable ways in which two shiruken carrying poisons that deal constitution damage could have taken Elan off his feet.

This is a different issue. I have already said that my arguments have been made from a rules perspective. I have also considered all counterarguments in the same light. Given poetic license all arguments become void and useless, so let's not use that, shall we?


In other words, this whole debate is fairly silly.

That, I can agree upon, and will therefore now refrain from pursuing this particular debate. Peace.

[eof]

You've slightly misunderstood the rule. Back in 2nd edition, we also kept strict records of what hp rolls were made at what level (for dealing with energy drain and stuff). However, in 3.5 this is not necessary anymore. True, there's a lower limit to maximum hp given by you hit dice, but that does not mean that you're assured to get a minimum of 1 hp for each level! That may sound contradictory, but it's not: let's say that you've got a Con of 10 and rolled a 1 for a given level, resulting in a total of 1 hp for that level. When you lose a point of Con (making your modifier -1) your max hit points drop by your level even though you couldn't have gotten any less hit points for the level in question! Yes, having rolled low hp scores now sucks more than ever!
Correct, my bad, we've got some rules baggage from older editions. You don't need to keep track over HP/level anymore, as you say. You still can't drop to less than 1 HP/level from CON damage though (page 72 DMG 3.0, page 290 DMG 3.5).

[ref]

OR maybe the assassins defeated a dragon, and thus can buy a lot of shurikens!

Amalthea: Feminity is a valid word, we all agree. But if you look at devils_advocate's quote, you'll see it says "femininity". That's what is mispelled :)

[GreyRat]

Hee, hee. I just had a thought; it would be funny if V was the first one to see the new Roy, and didn't notice any difference. V's modest wisdom bonus has already been established. And all humans look about the same anyway. :)

[Edna]

Feminity (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=feminity) is a valid word.

Valid if you're an English Renaissance poet...

Womanliness; femininity. [Obs.] ``Trained up in true feminity.'' --Spenser.

Edna

[metz]

eof, you are lookingwaaay too much into the literal, the shuriken hit Elan COS IT PROVIDED A REASON FOR ROY TO GET SOME BOOBIES!!!

In this case, it is important to note that the DM is all powerful, in this case, Rich, and he gets to tweak what he likes for comic effect.

simple, no need to argue figures, etc cos the comic goes out of its way to do odd or funky stuff for the FUNNY aspect. - its not an actual game dude.

[Nikolai_II]

In this particular case the door's hardness would pretty much cancel out any chance the shurriken has of dealing damage (see below for comments on magical shurriken), IMO, giving credit to the ad hoc ruling above.

Adamantine Shuriken would ignore hardness and be reasonably cheap. (On par with the amount of explosives carried by the dwarf at least).

They would also explain the small holes in the window, as opposed to breaking the entire glass pane.

[Sylvius]

Valid if you're an English Renaissance poet...

The OED I have here doesn't consider it obsolete, and, indeed, offers citations ranging from Chaucer (1386) to Browning (1872).

[CharPixie]

Okay, Victorian poet then. Me, I just want to see Roy in girl mode.

[Lilly]

Everyone not talking about the rules: here, everyone else... ELSEWHERE!

[The Giant]

1.) Elan fell down because he feels sick, and closes his eyes because, you guessed it, he feels sick. He is not at 0 hp. Roy's assertion that he will die is due to the oncoming secondary damage of the poison one minute later, which will likely reduce his Con below 0 and kill him.

2.) The Voice of Mod: Take all rules discussions to the Gaming board, forthwith!

EDIT: Lilly gets a cookie for beating me to the moderation.

[Jades]

Hehehe, I get to post after The Giant. I feel so privilaged!

The ninja stated that they didn't want to hurt the jester, but now they have. I don't think that Roy will need to get Elan to Durkon!

[Kish]

One minute? Yikes...

[silvadel]

Wiki really DOES have all human knowledge in it now...

And thus in the year 2012 the wikipedia achieved sentience... Judgement day....

[Hydro]

(This post wiped because it appears that the modship steped in and asked that rules discussion stop between me starting my post and me finishing it. My bad.)

[The Giant]

The Voice of Mod: EDIT: Simltaneous posting can make some strange scenarios...

At any rate, this part of my original post to Hydro is relevent to everyone: This thread has a specific purpose, and that purpose is to allow people to talk about the latest comic in basic terms. To say, "I liked it," or, "Meh," or "I wonder what's going to happen next?" It is NOT for in-depth analysis, and certainly not for a one-on-one quote war regarding D&D rules. Take the discussion to the Gaming forum.

The next person to discuss the game mechanics of firing shuriken through a wooden door, et al., gets an official warning.

[Hydro]

That was an honest mistake. I started that post over an hour ago (multitasking, go figure) and did not see your first warning until I had posted. I immediatley went to wipe my post clean, but again, you saw my post and posted a second warning before I could.

I wouldn't have written the post in the first place, but sometimes it is difficult to realize when a discussion goes off-topic until a moderator steps in.

I'm sorry for the annoyance, but well.. sometimes it happens. Simply a misscommunication. Rest assured that I wouldn't have posted in spite of the administrator's wishes had I refreshed the thread before posting.


(Edit: yes it can. ^^()
Sorry again, moving on now.)

[eof]

(This post wiped because it appears that the modship steped in and asked that rules discussion stop between me starting my post and me finishing it. My bad.)

Related to some of what you said before you wiped your post (nothing rules related, though):

Well, I like it here. I like OOTS. I apologise for going off-topic. I did not mean for it to get out of hand. I am also fully capable of respecting people, although I do not agree with their opinions or statements. I apologise to anyone who feel personally insulted. I apologise to the mods who felt they had to step in.

If you really want to continue the rules related discussion (I don't particularly feel like it, especially since it escalated as it did, but why not) you can send me a message, or continue somewhere else than in this thread.

[Sebastian]

Not so much, really. Raise Dead was a 5th level cleric spell and Resurrection was a 7th level cleric spell. I don't think that's changed. If you were using some optional rules, you had to make a resurrection survival check based on your con, but those were pretty low numbers to pass. Oh, and stipulations: the mere Raise Dead didn't work on elves and would burn off one Con point to raisee. It would also incapacitate the casting cleric for the day. Resurrection worked on anything and had no side effects. The two spells also differed in how much time was allowed to pass before someone was brought back to life.

Actually you are mixing things a little.
Raise dead incapacitate the raised for one day for each day he remained dead, you effectively lose one CON point (and in AD&D raising stats was way harder than in 3rd). It is resurrection that incapacitate the cleric, for one day for the level (or hit dice) of the raised creature and even with resurrection you had to roll the resurrection check and you lose one constitution point (note that if you fail the resurrection check you are definetely and permanently dead. Only the most powerful and dangerous force of the universe (GM fiat) can bring you back.
The remaining parts are correct

[Devils_Advocate]

You did.Its that a full adult who's intellect should have settled by then starts to grow at a childlike(really fast) pace the close he gets to getting a girl friend.
Well, I was saying that it shouldn't be a surprise that such a late bloomer would mature soon before getting a girlfriend, because she would be more willing to date him once he is more mature.

Do you assume that the increased affections of the protagonist’s romantic interest are the cause of his advancement, rather than vice versa? I would assume the opposite, barring evidence to the contrary. That's kind of what I was getting at.


Feminity (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=feminity) is a valid word.
Oops. I did not know that. Still, the belt's name is a proper noun, and it contains "Femininity", not "Feminity".


Amalthea: Feminity is a valid word, we all agree. But if you look at devils_advocate's quote, you'll see it says "femininity". That's what is mispelled :)
Actually, I said that "Feminity" was misspelled, meaning that it was a misspelling of "Femininity". Had I known that it was a proper word, I wouldn't have said that; it's not a really a misspelling per se, just the wrong word in this case (and needlessly archaic, for that matter). While a correction was called for, I made the wrong one. I blame my inadequate spellchecker, which evidently is unschooled in both Renaissance and Victorian poetry, the heathen software.

[AtomicKitKat]

As far as "femininity vs feminity" goes, I prefer femininity myself, if only because the antonym, masculinity, is derived from masculine, the antonym for feminine, the root(yes, I realise fem is the ultimate root) for femininity.

[BurntOfferings]

As far as "femininity vs feminity" goes, I prefer femininity myself....
I prefer "Roy has boobies."

What? Everyone else got to say it. Now it's my turn. ;D

[MurrayW]

I may get in trouble for say this, but I wonder if Miko will warm up to Roy now that he has but on the belt; and will V be jealous. The rating on OOS may have to change if we go to far down this story line.

;)

[SpaceCoyoteVega]

hee
can't wait to see how the Giant deals with She-Roy's hair. Will s/he remain bald, or suddenly sprout a girly do?

Also, switching sex/gender will not necessarily change one's sexual orientation. So Royette might not have that far different an opinion of Miko than Boy Roy.

(... will I get in trouble if I bring up the postulation that it was a paper door? they do have those, you know. um.)

(just wondering, cause I really know nothing about game mechanics and probably wouldn't be able to add much to such a conversation anyway. but am ready to edit this out if it's innapropriate.)

[Jades]

Right, the belt doesn't change the wearer mentally, or emotionally. Just physical changes. At least, that's how I've always played it. (Yes, I've had DMs update it to 3.5 and throw it at us.)

[Flak_Razorwill]

I hope the Giant makes Roy halfway recognizable.

And I can't wait for the look on Miko's face!

[Rawhide]

w00t! Its friday already. *waits patiently for the strip to be posted tonight*

[Winged One]

Almost Friday for me. I just managed to wade through my mountain of PbP to post here. I'll forgo the "Roy has boobies" jokes and just do this.*bows down before the comic genius of Rich "The Giant in the Playground" Burlew*

[Arian]

Rich "The Giant in the Playground" Barlew*

Burlew :)

[Ellisthion]

Indeed. 'Tis Mr Burlew.


I hope the Giant makes Roy halfway recognizable.

Methinks he has probably taken a long time preparing for this and creating a female Roy who is just right for the role.

[Phasm]

Personally, I'm hoping for an Afro on She-Roy. ;D That or cornrows, simply because cornrows are awesome. They're probably a pain to draw, though. :-/

[Sundog]

(Sigh) I hate being half a day ahead of the Giant. I won't see the new strip until very late...

[Jades]

I don't know how far ahead of the Giant that I am. My my clock, I've got 4 minutes until Midnight. I had to insert -1 on the time setting though, so...

*refresh*

*refresh*

*refresh*

[ref]

you guys look like in Aussie or Japan...

(and yay! triple TRIGAK!)

[Theragar]

*F5*

*F5*

*F5*

Can't wait to see the new Roy :)

[Eloco]

My only fear is that seeing how Elan already likes Roy a bit too much, what happens when he wakes up from the poison and sees Roylina there looking all lady like? Will Haley step in and fight for her man? Will Roylina toy will Elans little heart? Only time will tell! Its a nail biter for sure!

[Silverblaze]

Still can't help but to think that if for nothing else then for having the power to do so, this would be an excellent place for the Giant to change the scenery in the storyline :o Let us hang for a while before we are allowed to gaze upon fair Helen of Roy ;D

Ok - terrible pun, I know, but I couldn't help it ;)

[burrie]

My guess is that the next strip will be a dialogue between dwarf et ninja, and will end with them both looking in the closet, very surprised...

But of course, we're not allowed to see just yet why they are surprised.

[Theo]

I think I know how Roy figured out the poison is constitution damage:

Just like dragons, poison must be color coded for your convenience. Between the color of the half of the shuriken (the poison) and the change in color of Elan's face, as well as the green bubbles (which, if they can notice there aren't any shadows, they can see the green bubbles), and Elan's reaction, a smart fellow like Roy would surely be able to figure it out.

[Flak_Razorwill]

The Giant's on the eastern seaboard, around NYC. Any time that's relevant in the comic is more than likely his.

That just means the Europeans will get it later in the day, and West Coast people will get it bright and early, assuming Rich is on time.

[Boomlaor]

With the anticipation that's built up over this strip though, I'm inclined to say that Rich will delay putting it up on purpose, just to see the reactions from his loyal readers.

Boomlaor

[Sc00by]

Unless you've changed the time offset in your profile the forum time is 'Giant' time. So it's currently around twenty past 10 in the morning where he is.

[Arian]

Well, it's 20 past midnight Saturday here. Good night! :-)

[Amalthea]

OR maybe the assassins defeated a dragon, and thus can buy a lot of shurikens!

Amalthea: Feminity is a valid word, we all agree. But if you look at devils_advocate's quote, you'll see it says "femininity". That's what is mispelled :)


on Oct 19th, 2005, 11:40am, Slibs wrote:
The Girdle of Feminity was pretty much the only thing that had no easy "cure" up to and including the most powerful magic available, a Wish.

DevilsAdvocate responded:
Girdle of Femininity/Masculinity. It effects women too, you know. (And "Feminity" is simply misspelled.)
Neither of them are misspelled. Both Feminity and Femininity are valid words. It's like Flammable and Inflammable.

This educational moment has been brought to you by the letter Q. I'll be quiet now. :)

[Edit:] And this will teach me to read the rest of the thread before replying. You don't have to mod me, I'll go sit in the 'bad' corner now. :-[

[Geode]

The belt seems oversized for a human. Might Roy become a female ogre???

Edit: unintentional ?smiley removed

[coyote6]

Magic belts resize to fit the wearer. The last person to try it on was the ogre, so it's still ogre-sized. It should shrink when Roy(ina) puts it on.

[Muisje]

Last night I dreamt about how gender changed Roy will look. It was... scary. The stuff nightmares are made of. :o

[Kaerou]

Last night I dreamt about how gender changed Roy will look. It was... scary. The stuff nightmares are made of. :o

I dreamed that last night too o.O

[Flippy]

Last night I dreamt about how gender changed Roy will look. It was... scary. The stuff nightmares are made of. :o

That's just freaky dude!
Cmon i wanna see royette. Though i doubt Royette and Elan will have a relation or something. That would be way too soapy.
Refresh...
Refresh...
Refresh...

[The Giant]

Working on the strip now, check back at 1:00-1:30ish.

[Nighthawk4]

*Sigh* It seems that Ms. Royette is taking a long time to get her makeup on :D

Come on Giant, please don't keep us in suspense too long - we need to see what she looks like. ;)

Edit - wow, how is that for timing? :D

[Omellette]

This is quite possibly the most anticipated strip for this comic to date...

Methinks that the server is going to get a pretty massive hit around 1PM...

*...starts stretching his F5 finger...*

:-D

[JRR]

Personally, I want to see them strap that belt on V. :-)

[Thornwood413]

Gah, with work now I won't be able to see Royina till 9:30. damn damn damn!

[Slibs]

Must. Resist. Hitting. Refresh. Let comic. Update. On its. Own.

[Greebo]

Must. Resist. Hitting. Refresh. Let comic. Update. On its. Own.
NO! Hitting. Refresh. Makes. Server. Go. Faster! It. Must! I. Must. Believe. That!

[Slibs]

hey what takes lesss bandwidth? Hitting refresh on the comic or the board looking for the Giant's announcement that its up?

[Jades]

I don't know. Then again, I've got two windows open, one is on the comic, the other is on the boards.


(NOTE: I am joking about that...)

[Sajhiri]

~o Lurk...lurk...lurk while I should be working! o~

Multiple windows open to the same site doesn't cause any bandwidth usage increase other than what you have to load on the second page that is different from the first page. It uses the same amount of bandwidth as it would clicking from the forum to the comics page.

I'm excited to see how this all pans out. So many possible tangents, I completely don't know which one I want to see the Giant follow. Wheee!

[Greebo]

hey what takes lesss bandwidth? Hitting refresh on the comic or the board looking for the Giant's announcement that its up?
Sajhiri is correct, but didn't actually answer the question. asked...

First of all, it depends in part on whether you have browser caching enabled. If you do, then it depends on how often your browser expires the content.

But assuming you have browser caching turned off (and I recommend it unless you only ever view pages that don't change)...

The current comic is 123,495 bytes or 120.6Kb.

A full page of posts includes a variable amount of text and a variable number of images, but we'll use the previous page of this thread as an example...

The previous page of posts in this thread has approximately 10,000 bytes of text, and 13 different images with an average size of 3k, give or take.

So the forum page is approximately half the size of the comic image.

So it GENERALLY will cost less bandwidth to refresh the forums looking for Rich's post than it will to refresh the comic.

HOWEVER, if you refresh the forums constantly, - say ever minute (if you read fast), reading different threads, and posting, vs. refresh the comic every 5 minutes, you'll easily surpass the image bandwidth used.

So, after all that, the answer to your question is really, "It depends. Who cares?" ;) Donate to GitP to help pay for the bandwidth and refresh with impunity! (But don't complain about it being late cause its NEVER late, its on Giant time!) :)

[Devils_Advocate]

Sheesh, people, there's no need to frequently refresh like that. You can just go do something else until 2:00 or so and come back to check then. Is seeing the comic as soon as humanly possible that important?

Assuming that many of you are now shouting "Yes! It is!" ::), you might want to consider using one of the unofficial RSS feeds (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?action=display;board=comics;num=1127823468 ;start=0#4). Or you could just check this thread every once in awhile, since the Giant posts when he puts a new comic up. As Greebo pointed out, that takes up less bandwith unless you do it more frequently. Plus it gives you a chance to read comments while you wait.


[Edit:] And this will teach me to read the rest of the thread before replying. You don't have to mod me, I'll go sit in the 'bad' corner now. :-[
I wouldn't worry about it. We all make mistakes. (Hey, I did! ;)) And if repeating something someone already said is an offense, I think a lot of posters are guilty of it... (e.g. "Roy has boobies!" ::))


It's like Flammable and Inflammable.
Gah! Don't get me started on words that by all rights should be opposites but are actually synonyms. >:( (Admittedly, the only other example I can think of offhand is "loosen" and "unloosen".) That's even worse than redundant, very similarly spelled synonyms with exactly the same meaning! Grr! >:(

[eof]

Generally speaking, refreshing the comic should (typically) consume less bandwith, and put less strain on the server.

Every time you request a static file, your browser should (if it is smart enough) just get the file HTTP header, which typically contains information when the page was last modified. If the browser's cache then contains said file with a up-to-date timestamp, it does not need to retrieve the actual file, but can instead use the file it already has in its cache. When only considering bandwidth, the HTTP header is pretty insignificant. Since the content of the forum page is changed more often (as people make new posts), it also means that it must be actually retrieved more often.

However, it looks like that both the comic page and board page are generated dynamically. This would mean that your browser can't use any cached versions--the header would typically always imply that there is a fresher version of the page available. (There are workarounds I suppose, but not knowing how things are set up, I can't comment.)

Even so, the same argument applies to all static content of both pages, such as images. Since all images on the comic page remain up-to-date until the comic is updated, most of the content (other than the page itself) could be taken from the browser's cache. The same is not true for the boards, as new images might be added to every time someone makes a new post. The size of the comic page is typically smaller than that of of the boards' page. And finally, the boards link to far more resources (images etc.) causing more connections to the server (even if only to get the HTTP header), so refreshing the comic page will put less strain (other than bandwidth requirements) on the server than refreshing the boards.

I don't know how much strain either one puts on the server, or how much the server can handle, but my educated guess would be that refreshing the comic is the "nicer" option.

[Techonce]

There is an upside to the comic not being up yet. If it was up then I wouldn't have anything to distract me from the incredibily boring work I have to do.

Since the comic isn't there, I have reason to check the internet every 10 minutes for the new comic...

Actually I lied. I check every 5 minutes....

If I have to review too many more documents I'm going to want to ingest some of the poison that got Elan.

[Greebo]

Sheesh, people, there's no need to frequently refresh like that. You can just go do something else until 2:00 or so and come back to check then. Is seeing the comic as soon as humanly possible that important?

Just because no one else has done it yet...

YES IT IS!!!

[Techonce]

There is an upside to the comic not being up yet. If it was up then I wouldn't have anything to distract me from the incredibily boring work I have to do.

Since the comic isn't there, I have reason to check the internet every 10 minutes for the new comic...

Actually I lied. I check every 5 minutes....

If I have to review too many more documents I'm going to want to ingest some of the poison that got Elan.

[Sylvius]

The board's performance certainly suffers on days like this.

I think I'll go do some work for a bit - I'll check again just before lunch.

[Gabi.br]

I never post, I never complain, i just quietly read my comic every other day but...

WHERE THE HELL is today strip????????

the wait is diving me (alnde everybodi else around here) mad, MAD!!!!

[Greebo]

I think I'll go do some work for a bit
DETECT EVIL!!!

(Sorry, but references to doing some work demand it...)

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Comics up!!!!
















(Bluff, bluff, bluff, bluff the impatient fanatics... ;D )

[sarcasticmuppet]

What are you talking about? It's really up.

:)

Poor Roy experiencing gender discrimination for the first time...

[ScreamerSimon]

Those AD&D heavy armors are quite handy, they seem to automatically fit, whether the wearer has boobies or not ;D

[Devoured_Dude]

There must be a lot of smoke in that room. I'm pretty sure I'd be suspicious of someone with a mop on their head.

What I can't figure out is how Elan got knocked out my three little shurikens coated with Con poison. Can anyone explain that to me?


[ducks]

[The Vorpal Tribble]

"And this little stickman would be a modestly hot girl to help me through the hard times... You know, the kind that are only sorta hot so they don't mess around with other guys!"

-=-=-=-=-=-=-


What I can't figure out is how Elan got knocked out my three little shurikens coated with Con poison. Can anyone explain that to me?
Three standard poisons from the Dungeon Master's Guide:

#1. Black Adder poison, 1d6 con damage, 1d6 secondary damage, DC 11 fortitude save.

#2. Wyvern poison, 2d6 con damage, 2d6 secondary damage, DC 17 fortitude save.

#3. Deathblade poison, 1d6 con damage, 2d6 secondary damage, DC 20 fortitude save.

Now, imagine getting THREE doses of even the weakest of these poisons.

[triffid]

Wow. Server took quite a pounding, there. It took me quarter of an hour to load the comic image! Talk about tantalising.

Roy's lucky he had such a pretty mop to hand. ;D

[saraswati]

Dude! Is there no resounding appreciation of the line:

"Your skin is so soft..." ??

That cracked me up! Personally, my favorite line since "Stop oppressing my culture!" etc.

Also, I like she-Roy, I think she's the hottest bald chick since Sinead, or what's her name from Star Trek I.

I'm just assuming you are all so quiet due to board slowness.

Loved it! Go giant!

[MonkWren]

To quote Elan: Roy has boobies!

[eof]

"Huh. You know, I've been a member of this prestige class for years, and I never actually noticed that before."

"You and your drunken friend are free to go."

Wow. The Shadowdancer really is Captain Oblivious, isn't he?

[Eriol]

Even after getting pinched, Roy STILL has his (her?) priorities straight: HELP ELAN! At least he took his revelation on that he NEEDS to help in the forest to heart, and has kept with it and is HELPING first.

Good for Roy.

[SolFox]

Of course, this is right before we learn Elan (much like Nale) is a genius who has been using his bardic talents to fool the others into believing he is an idiot -- all while he manipulated events to finally reach the culmination of his plan to turn Roy into his perfect woman. ;D

[fwiffo]

Hmmm... I wonder if discarding the pink bunny slippers was a good move on Roy's part.

[Kizor]

all while he manipulated events to finally reach the culmination of his plan to turn Roy into his perfect woman. ;D

Right, this would be about the time when these boards start needing a certain acronym that's much used in another forum I visit. Repeat after me:

SAMYFAM.
She's A Man, You Fool, A Man.

Remember it, it'll come in handy.

[Steve_the_ERB]

So what kind of assassin goes back to his hotel room after he commits the crime? It does however give Roy the perfect chance to catch the dwarf "with his pants down" so to speak. :o

And if Roy does go through with this perfect chance for revenge will Haley go along with the plan, since (s)he is supposed to bring a friend?

[sniffles]

Ah, the only disappointment of this being a comic is that I don't get to hear Roy impersonate a woman's voice! :D

[Gleanerizer]

That must be a really nice mop. I guess only the finest maiden-hair is used for mopping the royal suite. That's the theory I like best anyway.

Giant, you've outdone yourself again. Another week of good readin'! 8)

[Kaerou]

Ah, the only disappointment of this being a comic is that I don't get to hear Roy impersonate a woman's voice! :D


s/he doesnt need to impersonate anything anymore, really.

[Leewong]

I think Roy really needs to change his name to Regina now.

I now prepare myself for the onslaught of gender jokes sure to ensue in the next week of comics.

[mossfoot]

For some weird reason, Roy's expression on the last panel really reminds me of Charlie Brown...

[Flak_Razorwill]

I think Roy really needs to change his name to Regina now.

I now prepare myself for the onslaught of gender jokes sure to ensue in the next week of comics.



Yeah.

Although I'm starting to loathe the dwarf.

And for some reason, this isn't as sexy as I though it'd be. I'm getting a "Rob Schneider in Hot Chick" vibe...

[RawBearNYC]

hey what takes lesss bandwidth? Hitting refresh on the comic or the board looking for the Giant's announcement that its up?
Voice of a Mod

Discussions of server performance are off topic here. Normally, if I suggest an end to an off topic discussion, I won't also participate. As I usually think it's a bad idea to have the last word then telling everyone to stop. But in this case, I will make an exception. So, while I'm responding to this, everyone else, please move back to discussing how the latest comic is the best comic ever.

The script that I wrote for the strip plays well under mod_perl. But the message board doesn't. mod_perl is constantly running and doesn't take any more overhead when new strip requests are made. Withough mod_perl, the server has to start a new perl process for every request. This means that the message boards put a bigger strain on the server than the strip. Even if the strip does represent a larger total package to be delivered to the browser. It's not bandwidth that's socking the server, it's the additional overhead associated with every board refresh..

HOWEVER, that said, that's not a suggestion that it's prefered to obsessively refresh the comic page instead of the message boards. It would be preferred (if you cared about the Playground) that you didn't refresh the page more than once every 30 minutes, and even better once an hour.

[Aeek]

Mophead, Mopette?

The pinkbunny slippers are gone, waaaaaaaaaaaah!!!

Room 608, if she was thinking more clearly the Order could make use of that.

<added>


EVAN'S SPIKED TENTACLES OF FORCED INTRUSION!!!


Ghastly thought, I like it.

[Vernal]

"Skeezy"
What a wonderfully onomatopoeic word. Sums up exactly how that should feel.

Oh, yes I looked up how to spell that.

[Phasm]

I loved the shocked/disgusted/creeped out expression on Roy's face in the last panel. So appropriate, and yet so comic!

And yes, Aeek, if Roy remembers the dwarf's room number the Order can go in and kick some butt! Fireball, anyone? Or even better...

EVAN'S SPIKED TENTACLES OF FORCED INTRUSION!!!

;D I'm really hoping that spell shows up again.

[pendejochy]

Hmmmm....

You know how Roy says that the Gender changeing belt doesn't grow hair? Well, I think that would also mean that the belt doesn't also "ungrow" hair, so to speak....so, does this mean Roy has chest hair on her breasts?

/me hides

[Midnight Son]

How do you know Roy had hair on his chest as a man? I don't believe we've seen him topless before.

[Kyle]

It does ungrow hair because the female ogre, when wearing the belt was bald.

[AtomicKitKat]

SAMFYAM.
She's A Man, You Fool, A Man.

Check your acronyms. :P

Rob Schneider was alright in THC(Hmm, I just realised that the initials refer to something else...especially since this is an Adam Sandler movie).

Haha, first we get the "Black men are bigger" reference, now we get the "Black women are bigger" reference. :P

[Kizor]

Fixed now. I blame the typo fairies.

[Marller]

The dwarf gave away their room number. :o
I wonder if the king might be a tyrant, considering the lack of care they take to cover their steps.

[Lightman]

*Casts detect plot twist*

I predict that the real King of No Where is Elan's dad and the person holding Haley's dad hostage

[Slibs]

I'm starting to wonder if the King is Elan's dad.

And I'm sorry I mentioned the whole comic vs board bandwidth thing, I was kidding about obsessive compulsive impatience.

[Kadi]

It is indeed implied that the King of Nowhere is a tyrant.

One of the staff talks about one of the other places, and mentions specifically that it, unlike Nowhere, is a democracy.

Therefore, if the Kingdom of Nowhere is a monarchy, it's also more than likely a tyranny as well. Power might not corrupt, but corrupt people are attracted to power.

[Lightman]

I'm starting to wonder if the King is Elan's dad.

And I'm sorry I mentioned the whole comic vs board bandwidth thing, I was kidding about obsessive compulsive impatience.
I beat you to it!

[Sundog]

I'm suspecting more and more the Doppelganger theory. Now ANOTHER one of Elan's plans has worked.

This is not our Elan....

[Vaarsuvius_Prime]

Regina's smile...I have never seen this kind of smile on Roy's face...like her mother.
http://www.phezzan.com/phezzan/upload/reinhard7_f_552.jpg
http://www.phezzan.com/phezzan/upload/reinhard7_f_552_1129991825.jpg

[Grey Watcher]

Regina's smile...I have never seen this kind of smile on Roy's face...like her mother.
http://www.phezzan.com/phezzan/upload/reinhard7_f_552.jpg
http://www.phezzan.com/phezzan/upload/reinhard7_f_552_1129991825.jpg

To mangle a Futurama quote: "The hormones must be sayshaying girlishly through his brain!"

But I'm glad to see that Rich respects the Video Game rules about Armor and clothing, namely, that the same suit of armor or article of clothing will always fit the wearer, regardless of gender. ;D

[The Vorpal Tribble]

Heh, took me a few going overs of the comic to figure out where Rose's skirt came from... Elan's cape. I really got to read the strip closer...

[Dorni]

I think we are getting more into the realm of the predictions thread, but I too am curious if there is a connection between elan's father and the King of Nowhere.

I am also curious about who hired these assassins. I don't see any remarks that could point to an employer, and there are so many motives to kill a king that motive doesn't help right now. The employer was also probably looking at discount assassins. It appears that their idea of "keeping a low profile" invloves blasting down a wall and walking in.

[Midnight Son]

*Casts detect plot twist*
I predict that the real King of No Where is Elan's dad and the person holding Haley's dad hostage
Sorry to burst your bubbles, but the guy holding Haley's dad hostage is the ruler of Tyrinaria. The King of Nowhere could be Elan's dad, but, in the predictions threads, most seem to think Elan's dad is the same as the guy holding Haley's dad hostage.

[Eriol]

Sorry to burst your bubbles, but the guy holding Haley's dad hostage is the ruler of Tyrinaria.
Darn! Beat me to it.

And for reference, the letter in strip #131 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=131) is the one that says the name of the Kingdom.

[Tawkis]

Isn' there a very good chance that Elan's father is dead?

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=61

It seems Nale may have killed him for denial ....

[Slibs]

Curse you Lightman, Curse you to a low bandwidth hell! <g>

That will teach me to take the time to spell check.

[Nightfall]

I believe this whole trans-gender experience will be a wake-up call for Royanna about how he perceives women. He may realize how objectionable some of his past advances may have been to whomever was on the receiving end. (Anyone remember "What Women Want" with Mel Gibson?)

I have no doubt that Royanna will be a bit more sensitive toward Miko, Haley, V(?) and any other female he deals with in the future. And no, I don't believe this stint as a female will be of a permanent nature. Either Durkon or V should be able to restore his masculinity.

[Gleanerizer]

I haven't seen any instances of skirt-chasing, apparent or genuine, in Roy besides with Miko. In fact, I'm willing to grant Roy that he may have been issuing Miko such cringeworthy pickup lines in order to gauge her personality and make sure her motives were genuine, so he could feel secure allying himself with her. But I speculate.


(Anyone remember "What Women Want" with Mel Gibson?)
I try not to.

[benkir]

what happened to Roy's bunny slippers?

[Kulatu]

what happened to Roy's bunny slippers?

We have gauged before that Roy has an excellent Intelligence, and probably good Wisdom and Charisma. He probably realized that a Hotel Servant (heck even a standard guest) would not be wearing fuzzy bunny slippers, and adjusted to fit the part.

[El Jaspero, the Pirate King]

Just a quick note on the "Elan's father" debate:

The letter Haley bears is from the Chancellor of Tyranaria, and says that her father is imprisoned by "Lord Tyrinar the Bloody, absolute master of the land of Tyranaria". It was not uncommon for a single person to be ruler of several different lands, so it's possible that the Lord of Tyraniaria and the King of Nowhere are in fact the same person, especially given that he could have conquered Nowhere in the time since Haley recieved the letter.

[Flak_Razorwill]

I'd like to think that Lord Tyrinar, who holds Haley's father is the same as the Lord with a big T in his war banners, AKA Elan's father.

That'd be a perfect twist: Haley's love interest is the son of the man who has her father in a dungeon!

Of course, we won't see anything remotely about this until 2008.

[Winged One]

Would you please stop making predictions in this thread? Put them in the Sealed Predictions thread, that way there's a possibility that they might come true.

[NEO|Phyte]

Am i the only one that thinks roy's head is strangely large in the first 2 panels?

[Praetorian]

That's probably just due to the fact that his waist is now much more slender - apparently Rich didn't want Roy to be a woman with some girth . . . well . . . save for the "great cleavage."

It's probably just how it came out, gotta cut Rich a break on that one, changing a male character into a female (even if it is just a stick figure) is bound to be . . . difficult.

[The Giant]

The head is the same size, but OOTS females have their facial features lower down (both because of their hair and because it makes them look "cute"). If you look at Haley and Miko, they both have their eyes lower down on their head then Roy or Elan. For Female Roy, I copied the same positioning, even though she didn't have hair.

[Sc00by]

Rushes off to check where V's eyes are... ;)

[Aeek]

Rushes off to check where V's eyes are... ;)

prediction: halfway between.

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Nighthawk4]

Oh Boy - that was worth waiting for. Some great lines from Haley and a good response from Roy(ette). Plus Elan's famous line of course.

Although, to be honest, Roy doesn't exactly have 'great cleavage'. :D

[Tanikova]

Roy is so right.... he is female right now so I guess he can smack Haley right upside the head for those remarks... the question I have is does his strength modifier change since lets get real... A man's majority of muscle mass is in his chest and a woman's is in her pelvic girdle area..... since he no longer has the aforetoo experienced chest musculature... how does that affect his fighting or hitting ability

[NEO|Phyte]

Gender has no affect on your characters abilities.

[omikapsi]

How does Haley know what a y-chromosome is? :)
Great comic.

[Dark]

"Or were you bitten by a woman and now you turn into one when the moon is full?"
I am so going to use this in my campaign.

[phlip]

And the archive is updated too... the title of #235 is classic...

And I have to say, if I was in Haley's position I too would probably start talking about it for a while before turning around...

[Shatteredtower]

You know you're a comic geek when you read that as "Or were you bitten by a radioactive woman?" before your eyes catch up to the rest of the sentence.

[Marller]

Just great, can't wait to see the reactions of the rest of the group. ;D

[The Vorpal Tribble]

"Y'know, technically, its now OK for me to hit a girl."


I believe this whole trans-gender experience will be a wake-up call for Royanna about how he perceives women.
Suuuuuuure ;D

[McAdoom]

"Roy has boobies!"

Obviously Elan and Belkar are both future psychic.

[Aeek]

"Roy has boobies!"

Obviously Elan and Belkar are both future psychic.

nah, more like proof the Giant doesn't care that much about our random predictions.


To quote Elan: Roy has boobies!

or was that psychic?


And the pink bunny slippers, maybe Roy feels thay are only suitable for a manly warrior.

[Flak_Razorwill]

Well, I'm glad Haley saw right through it so fast. And that Durkon's so damn good at healing.

It's funny: I guessed Miko was into chicks. I really did. No one believed me, but hey.

(Blow away your Y chromosome...I do occasionally hit this one friend. It's because she the kind of person who likes to poke you in the kidneys when you're in the middle of something important.)

[Drerek]

"Roy has boobies!"


Darn, I was hoping to say that first. ;D

The look on Elan's face is priceless.

I will say it again though: Roy has boobies.

[AtomicKitKat]

Heh. You know, if we wait a couple(read, 20) more episodes, Royanne might actually start growing some hair. :P

[Nightfall]

I doubt it. Once the hair follicles are gone, it doesn't grow back, male or female. My grandmother's hair was very thin before she died. My dad is pretty much bald, and my brothers are fighting it. Well, one of them is, anyway; he's still doing the comb-over. The other gave it up and shaved it all off. My poor sons! I wonder what will happen with them?

[King_Troll]

Poor Roy. He's got to be thinking bad things about Haley, hormones going nuts, and all the while nagged by the thought "I can't hit her, I'm still her employer, I'll get sued.".

[AtomicKitKat]

I figured Roy was bald by choice. ;D

[Wrecan]

It's not clear that Roy is naturally bald or if he shaves his head.

If he were naturally bald, I would think the Belt would have grown him some hair. Baldness is caused by an excess of male hormones in the wrong places (or right places, if you find baldness sexy).

If he shaved his head, it makes sense that Miss Roy is also bald. The Belt doesn't correct for fashion choices, no matter how inappropriate they may be for the gender.

[Malachi, the Lich King]

It's not clear that Roy is naturally bald or if he shaves his head.


On the Origin of the PC's addresses this actually.

[Sundog]

Have to read it...I just love the fact that Durkon has dropped back into his perpetually bamboozled expression. He doesn't seem to have much facial expression, really...

[Lasombra]

i said it ages ago, and i'll say it again

te-he "roy has boobies"

cant wait for the rest of the parties reactions. theyre obviously not far behind...

;D

[DeathQuaker]

The first person who said "Roy has boobies" on this thread was Dwarf71 waaaaay back at the bottom of page 2.

For the love of god, it is JUST not funny any more.

I realize now since I am being a killjoy, the next 26 pages of posts will be nothing but "Roy has boobies" posts. But I still feel better having said it.

Continue with your boobie discussion.

[Midnight Son]

It's funny: I guessed Miko was into chicks. I really did. No one believed me, but hey.
Ummm, it doesn't say she's into chicks. Haley is making a joke about someone telling Roy that she is. That's not to say she isn't, just that it's not definitive yet.

[RawBearNYC]

It's funny: I guessed Miko was into chicks. I really did. No one believed me, but hey.
This phenomenon never ceases to amaze me. If a member of the Order of the Stick says something, the fan base immediately assumes it's factual. I know Rich too well and have played games where he DM's. The only thing you can assume, when a character says something, is that the character said that. You can't even assume that they believe it, because they could be lying.

[Wrecan]

Agreed. Haley also mentioned that Roy castrated himself with his greatsword. I guess he did that to himself before he put on the belt.

::)

She was joking, people!

[Flak_Razorwill]

Ummm, it doesn't say she's into chicks. Haley is making a joke about someone telling Roy that she is. That's not to say she isn't, just that it's not definitive yet.


I apologize for the grammar: I meant to say that I speculated that she was into chicks, and since the Giant mentioned it, I thought it was cool.

I acknowledge that this doesn't equal facts. I'm just thrilled that something I though of eariler made it into the comic.

(It's kind of like when you're at a movie, and you see something coming from a good distance, and it happens. Like Episode II's dialogue. I was mentally picturing what they were going to say just before they said it. Lucas's writing really needs work.)

To the last few posters, take a deep breath and try to calm down. It's over.

[Greebo]

For the love of god, it is JUST not funny any more.

Roy has boobies!

Sorry, someone had ta do it!

[Winged One]

Roy has boobies!

Urge to destroy world...rising.

Comic was hilarious as always, of course.

[Arturius]

Roy's lucky that Haley and Durkon didn't go to get Belkar ;D

[Marller]

Well, I'm glad Haley saw right through it so fast. And that Durkon's so damn good at healing.

Or does she think, it's a very good disguise and is joking about it?

After reading the comic a second time, i think the first question should have been how he was turned into a girl. Nobody knew that Elan took the girdle.

[Grey Watcher]

Well, she does start to say "dressed as" so it's unclear whether or not she realizes that Roy is not merely dressed as a woman or has actually transformed. Of course, her jokes seem to suggest that she realize that Roy really IS a woman, not merely cross-dressing.

[Starla]

I think you are right Greywatcher she said dressed as and hey, he is wearing a mop on his head and Elan's cloak as a skirt for all she knows he could have found some toilet paper in the closet to stuff in his shirt. She is just teasing him for dressing as a girl. She doesn't know that Elan had the belt, unless she regularly checks their bags and pockets for practice if not to steal stuff (like Belkar's healing potion).
So she could be thinking that Roy is just dressing as a girl. We will probably find out soon enough. :)

[Tanikova]

Gender has no affect on your characters abilities.

While I know this is true and I don't doubt that female Roy is just as strong as Male Roy.... however, the main amount of muscle mass has moved from the chest to the hips... that is bound to effect a trained fighters balance and such during swinging of a sword and or fist...

[JessmanCA]

Due to my recent Manga addiction I keep reading these comics from right to left. I am like "that's funny but it doesn't make any sense, wow Rich is acting strange lately...OH"

So if Rich could please post the comics backwards for me that'd be great, thanks. (j/k)

[enigma]

Or does she think, it's a very good disguise and is joking about it?

After reading the comic a second time, i think the first question should have been how he was turned into a girl. Nobody knew that Elan took the girdle.The female hormones would be making Roy's voice higer though, so she might suspect there's something different about him/her.
And toilet paper doesn't look like real boobs no matter what- Haley would probably be able to tell the difference.

Enigma

[Chaosmage]

So, will Belkar even be able to make the spot check to tell Roy is female, or if he does will he remember that it is not normal for Roy to be female?

[orange]

So, will Belkar even be able to make the spot check to tell Roy is female, or if he does will he remember that it is not normal for Roy to be female?

I think Belkar will go down the "What's the big deal anyway ? Roy never had balls to start with ..." road ! Whatever happens, he never really seem to care much unless it involves him directly.

[Chris the Pontifex]

hehe, roy said "ass"... twice

[sniffles]

I can't wait til Belkar sees Roy... :D

[Gary_Schaper]

So, will Belkar even be able to make the spot check to tell Roy is female, or if he does will he remember that it is not normal for Roy to be female?
I imagine that Belkar is particularly adept at detecting opportunities for cruelty.

[Adventurer]

So, will Belkar even be able to make the spot check to tell Roy is female, or if he does will he remember that it is not normal for Roy to be female?

Given Belkar's non-existant Spot ranks (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=121), I would be surprised if he even spots Roy's boobies ;D

This comic was just hilarious, Haley shot some of the best lines of the whole comic! Kudos to Giant 8)

[Bil123]

Miko's gonna like this roy beter than the other one. I love that Shadowdancer comic http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=229

[Marller]

The female hormones would be making Roy's voice higer though, so she might suspect there's something different about him/her.
And toilet paper doesn't look like real boobs no matter what- Haley would probably be able to tell the difference.
Haley could assume it's an illusion spell, which would be more likely (most of the time ;) ) than a gender-bending belt.
Anyway the next comic will be up soon, hopefully.

[Sylvius]

Haley could assume it's an illusion spell

Maybe Haley doesn't know how Disguise Self works, either.

[Gleanerizer]

Maybe Haley doesn't know how Disguise Self works, either.

No no, you see, it's "Disguise Yourself".

;)

[Flak_Razorwill]

Since Roy could see the Shadowdancer/ninja, does that mean Roy's spot checks are ok? I mean, he seems to posess at least an average intelligence.

[mastroyo]

Will Roy take the belt of...? Why didn't he?

It seems like life revolves around OoTS. That's bad isn't it? ;D

[evileeyore]

Since Roy could see the Shadowdancer/ninja, does that mean Roy's spot checks are ok? I mean, he seems to posess at least an average intelligence.
The Shadowdancer had no Shadows to hide in. No point in trying to hide without shadows afterall... ;)

[Silverblaze]

The Shadowdancer had no Shadows to hide in. No point in trying to hide without shadows afterall... ;)

Besides - Even Belkar could see the Shadowdancer ;D

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=230

[ref]

New comic's up! When I can stop laughing I will comment more! :D :D

[Sc00by]

Got to love V's complete failure to notice anything but the wig...

And is it just me or is Hayley LOVING this? ;)

Who would've thought that in order to grow some balls he would have to...

;D

[Nighthawk4]

So V doesn't even notice that Roy(ette) is now female? :D

[Sc00by]

Gender has no bearing on ablity and is therefore unimportant?

Or All these humans look the same?

One or the other I guess..

[The Prince of Cats]

So... V. is being taken along to the 'party'... What does this tell us?

[omikapsi]

I'm betting that V is perfectly aware that Roy is female, but assumes that there is a good reason for it, and sees nothing particularly noteworthy about the situation.

After all, this is someone who manipulates the fabric of reality itself, a little gender-bending isn't going to be seen as all that significant to her.

Oh, and congratulations giant on getting these things up early, they are a very welcome accompaniment to my breakfast. Thank you.

[nirha]

So... V. is being taken along to the 'party'... What does this tell us?

It tells us... nothing. V looks adrogynous, so anybody expecting a woman would see one.

[orange]

I'm betting that V is perfectly aware that Roy is female, but assumes that there is a good reason for it, and sees nothing particularly noteworthy about the situation.

Or that V is completely oblivious to genders since from his/her/whatever's perspective human genders don't make much sense.


So... V. is being taken along to the 'party'... What does this tell us?

That they want someone with the ability to weave the very fabric of the universe to nuke the bad guys ? Just a possibility ...

[Nightfall]

And is it just me or is Hayley LOVING this? ;);D

"...so you've been a woman for all of five minutes and you've already got some guy's room number?....Slut!"

Oh yeah, she's havin' a blast! ;D

[Marller]

Haley really loves the situation. ;D

"Wow, watch out, V, it must be Roy's time of the month already."

EDIT: Damn, should'nt leave the computer for a few minutes or someone else posts almost the same :P

[nihil8r]

I don't like how this whole plan is dependent upon an assassin giving out the location of his lair to a female, employed by his target, of a different race, who was disguised by someone with no ranks in disguise, gratuitous dependent clause.

Considering this 4-star hotel in the middle of ... wherever is totally loaded with human women, my disbelief is not being suspended.

Aha! But you see, Roy must have had a five-o-clock shadow and that didn't change when his gender did. Thus, the dwarven lust for bearded women could not be contained.

Stubble! Oh how I desire thee!

[Flak_Razorwill]

-I'd have to agree: V's reaction to Roy's new gender difference is probably due to V's genderlessness.

-Haley has more of a rapier wit than we previously believed.

-My guess is that when Miko hears the word "attack on king," she'll go postal and re-enact the Iranian Embassy debacle. This has bad news written all over it.

-I love how Roy's taking charge, possibly to compensate for a sudden lack of...you know, and taking all the female/possibly female members to the room to seduce and kick the living crap out of the dawrf with the pistol.

-And since Belkar's not there

[Aeek]

So... V. is being taken along to the 'party'... What does this tell us?

As much as the fact that V doesn't look exactly happy about being included.
Net result = ambiguous, surely no surprise.

[Pagan]

The jokes keep getting better ;D , and I think the anti-Miko side is winning now that Roy is - well, you know :D

[Silverblaze]

Hmmm... I am somewhat puzzled as to the fact that none of the OotSers comment on how far Roy was willing to go in order to save Elan - Even Elan himself. But ok - they might be reacting to the situation at hand, and the temptation is just too great ;D

[DeathQuaker]

Hmmm... I am somewhat puzzled as to the fact that none of the OotSers comment on how far Roy was willing to go in order to save Elan - Even Elan himself. But ok - they might be reacting to the situation at hand, and the temptation is just too great ;D

I think it is a matter of temptation. I am surprised Haley wasn't more grateful that Elan was rescued... OTOH, I think she's been mighty frustrated by Miko and was mad at Roy for letting Miko tell them what to do, she she's having it out since she knows she can just keep pouring salt on the wound.

Hopefully she'll drop it soon. Poor Roy. He really is a good guy (even when he's female). :)

And V's reaction is wonderful (yeah, I think she either doesn't notice Roy's change or just doesn't understand why it would be a big deal). This has been my favorite strip in this arc so far...

[Starla]

I think Rich found the perfect way to employ a lot of female humor just by having Roy at the end of the butt instead of Haley. Rich you are very shrewd. Well done!

[Sebastian]

So... V. is being taken along to the 'party'... What does this tell us?
That they need to blow up things. ;)

[Silverblaze]

I think Rich found the perfect way to employ a lot of female humor just by having Roy at the end of the butt instead of Haley. Rich you are very shrewd. Well done!

And since Roy is still Haley's boss (and same gender), she can get away with this without being slapped with the aforementioned sexual harassment suit ;D

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=26

[Nasrudith]

V is unable to tell gender! Maybe all non elves look the same!

[phlip]

Obviously all elves are as androgynous as V, so s/he grew up not learning the difference between the two human genders (obviously the differences beween elven genders are different). So now confronted with Roy changing from male to female, s/he doesn't notice because they both just register as "Human" to hir.

Think about it - take say a dog, to the untrained human eye male and female dogs look alike, but to another dog they're no doubt rather different.

[sniffles]

My favorite part is V's bewildered expression. :D

I still can't wait to see Belkar's reaction to Roy.

[Grey Watcher]

The female hormones would be making Roy's voice higer though, so she might suspect there's something different about him/her.

Not necessarily, there are women out there with pretty deep voices, and perhaps Roy is now one of them.

[Amalthea]

V is unable to tell gender! Maybe all non elves look the same!
I just remembered something...
Lirian is an elf, and she definately looks female.
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=196

[Taelas]

Lirian doesn't wear a robe like V's.

[Sundog]

V is notably bad at all kinds of social interactions (save, perhaps, lecturing). She appears to suffer from some kind of social blindness...

[Elethiomel]

Think about it - take say a dog, to the untrained human eye male and female dogs look alike, but to another dog they're no doubt rather different.

Male and female dogs might look pretty much the same to other dogs - but they certainly smell very differently. Dogs rely much more on their nose to tell them stuff about the world than they do on their eyes.

Maybe elves rely on something else?

[Gengy]

Given Belkar's non-existant Spot ranks (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=121), I would be surprised if he even spots Roy's boobies ;D

This comic was just hilarious, Haley shot some of the best lines of the whole comic! Kudos to Giant 8)

Ahhh, but you forget. Belkar is Male. That, like in real life, gives him a +20 to Spot boobies. It also, I am sure, gives a -10 to Concentration checks, but meh.

Boobies!

This comment was not typed to be offensive to anyone, and my apologies if you lack a sense of humor.

[GreyRat]

Hee, hee. I just had a thought; it would be funny if V was the first one to see the new Roy, and didn't notice any difference. V's modest wisdom bonus has already been established. And all humans look about the same anyway.
Called it. :)

This dwarf will have a heck of a story to tell. "Did I ever tell you about the time I had a transgendered chick, a cutie red-head, and an elf, in my hotel room, all at the same time?"


The female hormones would be making Roy's voice higer though, so she might suspect there's something different about him/her....

Not necessarily, there are women out there with pretty deep voices, and perhaps Roy is now one of them.
Next time I read the strip, I'll pay attention to Roys voice and see how much it's changed. ;)

[Slibs]

Roy should be thankful Elan hasn't thanked him. A bard probably expresses his thanks pretty physically to an attractive woman.

[Amalthea]

Lirian doesn't wear a robe like V's.
No, she doesn't. But it definately determines that elves do have non ambigous genders, and so there must be another reason behind V's reaction to Roy's new attributes.

Personally, I think V just doesn't normally pay attention anything that isn't presented as an intellectual problem to be solved.

[ref]

Vaarsuvius' obliviousness is a classic!

And Haley is so enjoying that. But she's grateful with Roy for saving Elan. She won't admit, she's a reserver rogue. But in the bottom of her heart she's grateful.

Well, four down. Two to go... Belkar and Miko (hmm... those two... you know, fighters lovers, they say). Those two will have some classic reaction too. Belkar is mean, addict to women ("Bandit camp? You told me we were looking for the nearest strip club"), and has no respect for Roy (or anyone else for that matter). Miko will probably go nuts about how this is breaking the laws and all that hehe... I love that Miko. :)

[AtomicKitKat]

Not necessarily, there are women out there with pretty deep voices, and perhaps Roy is now one of them.

I noticed women over 6 feet in height tend to get that. Joanie Laurer(Chyna), Kristen Johnston(Sally from 3rd Rock), even Laura Prepon(Donna, That 70's Show). You'll note that they all have relatively deeper voices than the "average female"(any female below about 5'8, or more simply, shorter than me. ;) )

You can sex domestic cats by face too, kind of. Tom cats(those who are not neutered and prowl the neighbourhood waking up the humans ;) ) have rounder faces, while females and juveniles have more angular faces.

[Kadi]

Also, Miko's voice must be somewhat deep, since they thought she was a guy until Roy knocked off her hood during battle.

[felblood]

Even to a wizard, being transgendered is more important than having a mop on your head; mops don't give stat bonuses either.

V doesn't notice, because V lives in a plot bubble of andodginy which makes all sexes look the same.

--Or more acurately because this way the Giant can make unknown gender jokes without giving us new evidence to fuel the anoying debate.

Rich, you're a genious!

It's been said before, but it hasn't been said nearly enough yet (unlike a few other things... :P).

Genious I say! :D

[silvadel]

Hmmm... I am somewhat puzzled as to the fact that none of the OotSers comment on how far Roy was willing to go in order to save Elan - Even Elan himself. But ok - they might be reacting to the situation at hand, and the temptation is just too great ;D

A little GUILT goes a long way...

[Lucca_Majere]

Obviously, this is not V's gender debate topic. And nor should it be. But let me just say (and I think it's been said before) that there are different tribes or whatever of elves. Maybe it's a characteristic of V's paticular tribe of elves to all be androgenous, while other tribes of elves have gender characteristics more like that of humans. Just a thought.
But that comic was very amusing XD. Hehe.

[ref]

About all these voice comments... have you noticed a flaw? This is a comic! Characters have no voice! [breaking the fourth wall from the board isn't so fun...] ;)

At least we now know why Haley sleeps with Vaarsuvius...

[Amalthea]

Even to a wizard, being transgendered is more important than having a mop on your head; mops don't give stat bonuses either.

V doesn't notice, because V lives in a plot bubble of andodginy which makes all sexes look the same.

It could be a mop of Diguise +1 ::)

Seriously, I'd bet that V noticed, but I just don't think it's the sort of thing that V's going to pay much attention to, whereas V would pay attention to any effect that lowered Roy's effective Int score. (i.e. Miko)

Gender swapping? All in a day's observation for a manipulator of vast cosmic forces!

[Fairome]

Never says anywhere that Lirian couldn't've been a Half-Elf, right?

Not only does her human blood give her free reign of favored classes, but she can wear the skimpy little belly shirt, too.

[Jevanyn]

My favorite part is V's bewildered expression. :D

I still can't wait to see Belkar's reaction to Roy.

I'm picturing Schillinger's line from Oz: "You're even prettier than I thought you'd be."

[Lilly]

EEEEHEHEHEHHEH!

Haley is having way, way, way too much fun. And when Roy(ette) aked her to shut up about it, that's only going to encourage her more...

I'd bet that V notices that Roy looks different, but just thinks that it's a halfway decent disquise instead of the belt.

[Phasm]

Man, I just about died laughing this morning. Kudos on a highly amusing subplot, Giant! ;D

I think V's obliviousness was a comic poke at crappy Wisdom and Spot scores. Wizards are notorious for that. "I consider myself lucky to find my own spellbook in the morning."

Heehee, I can't wait for the horny dwarf's reaction to three tall chicks at his door- one a redhead and one an elf, no less! Are we ever going to find out the assassins' names? Or why they want to kill the King of Nowhere? Sure, they were paid, but who paid them? Will our intrepid heroes investigate, or leave the mess for the locals and continue on their way?

Oh, and bets on whether or not the belt is easily removable? My five sp is on "cursed, requires more powerful magic than V or Durkon have to get it off". Maximum comic and side-quest opportunities there!

[manscatha]

There exists psychological research that shows that people who conform heavily to gender stereotypes tend to notice gender more readily than people who do not. (They measure this by asking people to e.g., sort stuff, like a pile of clothes; one person might sort by gender first, another by colour or clothing type.)

So it makes perfect sense that V would consider gender less noteworthy than a disappearance of Roy's shiny bald dome. I bet V has spent time calculating its volume and area just for fun.

Also... even if Elves can look different, depending on gender, it seems likely that they all behave in a more androgynous manner. If this is the case, they would have fewer gender-based jokes, and a switch in gender would not even register as a comedic possibility. (Even if V is not amused by the mop, V might understand that it's the sort of thing less serious people find funny.)

[Wiggle]

This dwarf will have a heck of a story to tell. "Did I ever tell you about the time I had a transgendered chick, a cutie red-head, and an elf, in my hotel room, all at the same time?"


That's if he survives, of course!

[Devils_Advocate]

Ahhh, but you forget. Belkar is Male. That, like in real life, gives him a +20 to Spot boobies. It also, I am sure, gives a -10 to Concentration checks, but meh.

Boobies!
Surely you mean a -10 to Concentration checks specifically once boobies have been spotted, and not just in general?

[maxon]

Think about it - take say a dog, to the untrained human eye male and female dogs look alike, but to another dog they're no doubt rather different.

You need training for that?? Wow! ;D

[maxon]

I noticed women over 6 feet in height tend to get that. Joanie Laurer(Chyna), Kristen Johnston(Sally from 3rd Rock), even Laura Prepon(Donna, That 70's Show). You'll note that they all have relatively deeper voices than the "average female"(any female below about 5'8, or more simply, shorter than me. ;) )


Y'know ... women vary. Quite a lot actually. I don't think there are any particular rules and voice pitch depends, in particular, on the size (thickness as well as length) of the vocal chords. This isn't necessarily related to height and can change with voice training, illness and age (amongst other reasons).

[Eriol]

Y'know ... women vary. Quite a lot actually. I don't think there are any particular rules and voice pitch depends, in particular, on the size (thickness as well as length) of the vocal chords. This isn't necessarily related to height and can change with voice training, illness and age (amongst other reasons).

Just look at Mike Tyson for an example of someone bucking the trend with voice pitch. ::)

[Gengy]

Surely you mean a -10 to Concentration checks specifically once boobies have been spotted, and not just in general?

You are correct sir!

[wolf_mage]

Funny comic... :D

Oh, a typo: it says "shut up the hell up". Oops. (I don't know or care if this has been posted before.)

[saraswati]

IMO V's cluelessness is her/his is due to viewing him/herself as the norm, rather than the exception.

I don't care why V, as an individual, is so gender ambigious; whether in Rich's world all elves are that way, or just V. I love having a gender ambigious character! It has huge possibilities for humor and I am very happy to see Rich taking advantage of it. I hope we never find out what sex V actually is. It would spoil so much.

Same with the Roy/Royette subplot. Latest comic made me laugh hard.

You know Haley made a comment about "growing balls", but I wonder if it was Roy first experience with sexual harrassment that made him grow a spine and take a stand ;)