Dragonfire Support or Warbard Seeker of the Song?

[Condé]

Hello everyone,

Context

I have been toying with 2 builds for a upcoming game starting at level 1 to level... I don't know. I want to make a support class with no spellcasting. I am tired of playing cleric for people to ask for healing, or other player expecting some kind of healbot/DMM buffer as supports. There is way more than that in the game and that is what I am aiming for.

Sure it is not going to be very powerful or OP in any mean but that doesn't matter. The party is:
- Crusader / Fighter
- Rogue/Swashbuckler
- Cleric / Marshall / Legendary Leader
- Me

My strategy is to play a support character who is really hard to kill or can flee easily. Why? Because I will take a level of Thrallherd, basically playing this character more than the main one. That way, I would have the Thrallherd as a backup and I could have an unlimited supply of expandables characters... And finally play all these dumb builds I have gathered for years... Without the XP penalty of my main character dying or the leadership penalty when you get a cohort killed.
Thrallherd is perfect.
And yes, I know the Thrall is going to be one level behind. But it will not matter that much I believe.

That is why I made my Fiend of Possession thread not so long ago. But entering the PrC requires spellcasting or to be a diabolus and take the Divine Minion template etc... To end up being the weapon of your Thrall. The problem is it is going to be incredibly boring to play at low level AND incredibly cheesy AND... Who want to follow Sebek? If you are in a evil campaign why not but otherwise... Ew.

So I came up with 2 ideas:

- Warblade/Bard focusing on inspire courage and taking all the maneuvers that prevent your character from dying. (Moment of Perfect Mind, Wall of Blades, Iron Heart Surge...) into Seeker of the Song.
- Dragonfire Adept into Dragonsong Lyrist... Being invisible all day long should cover a lot and allow the character to be hard to hit or even see.

We can go crazy since we are allowed to take 2 flaws.

Race: Kalashtar.
Mandatory feat: Kalashtar Mindlink. (Mindlink + Manifester level = CL which allow us to take Thrallherd and play whatever we want)

Build#1 Warblade/Bard

A bit convoluted because I am trying to shoehorn Seeker of the Song... (It makes me uncomfortable to not go into a Prestige Class. Don't ask.) But it looks fun and was a nice challenge to try to fit all that into one build.

Stats distribution: 15 14 16 14 13 16


Bard - Kalashtar Mindlink, Inquisitor, Skill Focus (Perform: Wind Instrument) Bard ACF: Mimicking Sound and Healing Hymn.
Warblade
Bard - Song of the heart
Warblade
Bard
Thrallherd - Adaptive Style
Warblade
Warblade
Warblade - Song of the White Raven
Bard
Seeker of the Song until 20, feats open.


If you take some non-class skills and in this order you just barely get enough skill points to enter Seeker of the Song at 11th level. I will not take Dragonfire Inspiration because I prefer the bonus to attack, find Dragonfire inspiration quite cheesy and will not take Words of Creation either because I don't want to play an exalted character, which most people forget you have to play in order to be able to use Words of Creation.

With a Masterwork Natural Horn, Badge of Valor, Song of the Heart , Song of the White Raven and Inspirational Boost we would have +6 att/damage at level 9. Which is not bad at all. It could be better, right, with Words of Creation but as said earlier, who wants to play an exalted character? Not me.

My problem with this build is... The abnormal usage of Swift Action. Even if you do not use Inspire Courage as a swift action (Which is allowed by Song of the White Raven), you will end up having trouble fitting all that in your action economy.
Badge of Valor requires an immediate action to activate... Inspirational Boost is a Swift action... Moment of Perfect Mind/Wall of Blades and the like are Immediate actions too... Which might be a problem since you want to boost your inspire courage but if you do you will be vulnerable since you won't have an immediate action left...

You could add a level of cleric and go Ruby Knight Vindicator, fueling your need of Swift action with your Turn Undead ability but it comes online pretty late and ask you to invest into Devoted Spirit maneuver and stance to enter the prc. Or taking a level of Crusader... Which make the build really odd.


Build#2 Dragonfire Support

Stats distribution: 13 14 16 14 15 16


Dragonfire Adept - Draconic Heritage (Battle Dragon) - Kalashtar Mindlink - Entangling Exhalation. Battle Dragon gives us Perform as a class skill.
Dragonfire Adept
Dragonfire Adept - Inquisitor
Dragonfire Adept
Dragonfire Adept
Thrallherd 1 - Dragonsong
Dragonfire Adept
Dragonsong Lyrist
Dragonsong Lyrist - Open
Dragonsong Lyrist
Dragonsong Lyrist
Dragonsong Lyrist - Open
Open X


More straighforward, it allows some good early battlefield control via Entangling Exhalation, spammable breath attack and Detect Magic / Identify at-will from level 1 at no cost. Which is a-okay later but a godsent at low level.
We get Walk Unseen at level 7 and basically wait for Dragonsong Lyrist to get online to buff the party in the first round of the fight, staying invisible, and flee the battlefield to stay alive while our Thrall do the job for us. Which can be played heroically since if it dies... It doesn't matter.

Dragonsong Lyrist has some interesting, if not powerful, abilities, allowing to let your party fly, and a +4 strength which is... Alright. The last level give some party healing too, not the best at this level but could be worse. I guess.

I like it because you are usefull right at level 1 take the support role later on and can stay out of sight of many, many creatures for a long time. Later levels are going to get a little rougher but since you are not supposed to be the main character it matters less I suppose.

Thoughts?

What do you guys think? Are they bad? Are they playable?
The first build is filled with conflicts and action-economy issues but I really like the idea of blowing a horn and be "invincible", deviating rays and removing any statue that could affect you in one action and boosting your friends...
The second build is more debuff oriented and vanish from existence (Quite literally) later on. Dragonsong Lyrist looks fun to play tho but there is so almost no way to improve this PrC and it ends after 5 levels only.

[sleepyphoenixx]

My strategy is to play a support character who is really hard to kill or can flee easily. Why? Because I will take a level of Thrallherd, basically playing this character more than the main one. That way, I would have the Thrallherd as a backup and I could have an unlimited supply of expandables characters... And finally play all these dumb builds I have gathered for years... Without the XP penalty of my main character dying or the leadership penalty when you get a cohort killed.
Thrallherd is perfect.
If you just want the Thrallherd to be out of the way you could just make him an Egoist. Use Metamorphosis to turn into an object your thrall carries around in his pocket and you're pretty much invulnerable.
And since psions don't really have buffs for other people no one will bother you to be a buffbot for them.


My problem with this build is... The abnormal usage of Swift Action. Even if you do not use Inspire Courage as a swift action (Which is allowed by Song of the White Raven), you will end up having trouble fitting all that in your action economy.
The easiest solution would be to scout so you can start playing before the first round of combat. Though you might need to pick up Subsonics if you care about stealth.
If you find yourself surprised and can't spare the actions just leave off the badge or IB.

Alternatively drop the Diamond Mind maneuvers, pick up the Pride domain (via Planar Touchstone) instead and boost your saves the normal way so you can dedicate your swift actions to bardic music.



You could add a level of cleric and go Ruby Knight Vindicator, fueling your need of Swift action with your Turn Undead ability but it comes online pretty late and ask you to invest into Devoted Spirit maneuver and stance to enter the prc. Or taking a level of Crusader... Which make the build really odd.
You could just replace Warblade with Crusader. Pick up the Pride domain as mentioned and losing Diamond Mind isn't that big an issue.
Though the Diamond Mind save replacing maneuvers are all 3rd level or lower, so getting them on an item shouldn't be a problem either.

[Paragon]

If you want to be far away from combat, buff your party and have your Thrall as you "main" player in the encounter, try the Alphorn (S&S p42) with Subsonic feat. You can Inspire Courage from 1d10 miles away

Other bardic trick I've seen recently was in the Monster Mash competition. Pick a Grig as your race and add the Master Fiddle (SS p??) ; you have invisibility 3/d, bardic music and Tiny size for 3 LA. The rest of the build is free (Dragonfire Adept or Warblade)

(Telepathic Ability host feat lets you enter Thrallherd albeit a bit later, maybe too late for your taste)

[Chronos]

If I were playing a draconic-themed support character, it'd be really tough for me to avoid Dragon Shaman, or at least picking up an aura or two. It's also a good way to answer folks begging for healing: "Here's half your HP; you're on your own for the other half".

And on a Dragonfire Adept, the first Least Invocation I'd go for would be Endure Exposure. Not needing winter clothes is OK, but the real benefit is that you can make your allies immune to your breath weapon, which means you can safely breathe into the middle of a chaotic melee.

[Condé]

If you just want the Thrallherd to be out of the way you could just make him an Egoist. Use Metamorphosis to turn into an object your thrall carries around in his pocket and you're pretty much invulnerable.
And since psions don't really have buffs for other people no one will bother you to be a buffbot for them.


The easiest solution would be to scout so you can start playing before the first round of combat. Though you might need to pick up Subsonics if you care about stealth.
If you find yourself surprised and can't spare the actions just leave off the badge or IB.

Alternatively drop the Diamond Mind maneuvers, pick up the Pride domain (via Planar Touchstone) instead and boost your saves the normal way so you can dedicate your swift actions to bardic music.


You could just replace Warblade with Crusader. Pick up the Pride domain as mentioned and losing Diamond Mind isn't that big an issue.
Though the Diamond Mind save replacing maneuvers are all 3rd level or lower, so getting them on an item shouldn't be a problem either.

I didn't know subsonics was a thing. That's really interesting. You could play right before a fight (It would be more difficult for your allies to make listen check however but...) and stay concentrated on it as long as you want, nobody would notice except your friends. Clever and useful. I like the idea.

The metmorphosis part... I haven't thought about it. I wonder what you can do in object form. It prevents you from menifesting, since it would end the effect of the power but... It doesn't tell anything about feat or other things. It even say you can still speak. Could you make a bard/ardent with inspire courage based on Perform: Oratory and inspiring from the bag of your thrall? That would be hilarious.


If you want to be far away from combat, buff your party and have your Thrall as you "main" player in the encounter, try the Alphorn (S&S p42) with Subsonic feat. You can Inspire Courage from 1d10 miles away

Other bardic trick I've seen recently was in the Monster Mash competition. Pick a Grig as your race and add the Master Fiddle (SS p??) ; you have invisibility 3/d, bardic music and Tiny size for 3 LA. The rest of the build is free (Dragonfire Adept or Warblade)

(Telepathic Ability host feat lets you enter Thrallherd albeit a bit later, maybe too late for your taste)

The Alphorn is really funny indeed. You gave me some idea like being able to teleport out of the part when a fight start, become invisible and play the Alphorn from 1 mile away, being invisible or something for good measure. It doesn't work INSIDE because it is hard to find dungeons with no door whatsoever who are 1 mile long or longer.


If I were playing a draconic-themed support character, it'd be really tough for me to avoid Dragon Shaman, or at least picking up an aura or two. It's also a good way to answer folks begging for healing: "Here's half your HP; you're on your own for the other half".

And on a Dragonfire Adept, the first Least Invocation I'd go for would be Endure Exposure. Not needing winter clothes is OK, but the real benefit is that you can make your allies immune to your breath weapon, which means you can safely breathe into the middle of a chaotic melee.

I thought of that. Sadly picking a level of Dragon Shaman delay even more lesser invocations. And being invisible only instead of greater or having better way to be untargetable become less and less interesting. (I still think you would be fine for most fights with just invisibility but you never know what's coming up most of the time)