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Craig1f
2007-12-07, 02:46 PM
Ok, here's the story.

Tordac is a level 6 Barbarian. The DM gave me the bonus feat, endurance. He has pounce from Complete Champion, and a Berserker Great Axe (I think the enchantment is made up. It's +0 out of rage, +2 in rage.). The axe is also 19-20/x2 instead of x3.

Feats:
B: Endurance
1: Power Attack
3: Cleave
6: Steadfast Determination (Desperately needed Will Save boost)

Barbarian level 4
Half-Orc Paragon level 2

I plan to finish half orc paragon at level 7, and my STR will be 24 at level 8 when I take Fighter 1 and get Improved Bullrush.

I plan to take a 2nd level of Fighter (either Dungeon Crasher, or Leap Attack).
2 levels of Ranger (for knowledge Geography, rapid shot)
2 levels of Horizon Walker (Immune to Fatigue and Darkvision 120').
Then a third level of Ranger (he said I'll get some kind of super-endurance, but won't tell me what it is unless I get it).

So, I was thinking of retroactively getting the Trap Killer Variant for Barbarian, from Dungeonscape. I was also thinking about Dungeon Crasher for Fighter 2, but I'm not sure if it's necessary, since I can pounce for so much damage, and if I take that, I won't get Leap Attack until level 12.

I also wanted to get Combat Brute, which will take 2 more feats.

So, is Dungeon Crasher worth taking? What about Trap Killer? Are most traps magical, making trap killer worthless? What's the opinion on this build?

Person_Man
2007-12-07, 03:11 PM
If you have orcish blood, I highly suggest taking Headlong Rush (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030301a).

Headlong Rush [Fighter, General]

You charge your foes with immense force, heedless of your own safety.

Prerequisite: Orc or half-orc, base attack bonus +4 or higher.

Benefit: Instead of a normal charge attack, you can perform a headlong rush. A headlong rush is a charge that provokes attacks of opportunity from every foe who can reach its path, including the opponent you attack. A headlong rush otherwise functions like a charge attack (+2 attack, -2 AC, straight-line movement only), except that a successful attack deals double damage.

Pick up a reach weapon to avoid AoO, or pick up Karmic Strike to create an AoO attack loop (you charge enemy and hit him for double damage, provoke an AoO from Headlong Rush, which provokes an AoO from Karmic Strike - repeat until you or your enemy dies or one of you runs out of AoO).

Dungeoncrasher is only worth while if you can pick up Knockback (Races of Stone) which gives you free Bull Rush attempts whenever you hit with Power Attack. But since you're not a Large race and don't have Powerful Build, you can't qualify for the feat. So I'd skip it.

Power Attack + Improved Bull Rush + Shock Trooper + Leap Attack is pretty much required if you want high damage output heading into mid-levels.

I'd skip Combat Brute unless you're making a Sunder build, which are situational and tend to destroy your party treasure.

If you prefer defense, then Combat Focus + Combat Vigor + Combat Stability will give you +4 to Will Saves, Fast Healing 4, and +8 to resist all Trip/Bull Rush/etc. attacks. Die Hard would also be a good idea.

Frosty
2007-12-07, 03:12 PM
What do you want your barbarian to do primarily? If mean, if he's a charger you NEED Shock Trooper somewhere in there (which requires Imp. Bull Rush)

Craig1f
2007-12-07, 03:25 PM
If you have orcish blood, I highly suggest taking Headlong Rush (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030301a).

Pick up a reach weapon to avoid AoO, or pick up Karmic Strike to create an AoO attack loop (you charge enemy and hit him for double damage, provoke an AoO from Headlong Rush, which provokes an AoO from Karmic Strike - repeat until you or your enemy dies or one of you runs out of AoO).

Naw. Gotta keep the Greataxe. It's Tordac's tribal axe, given to him by the Fox Tribe for combat prowess. After the Fox Tribe was wiped out, the Lion Tribe took him in. But he's focusing on the axe.

I gave up a +1 Vibrating Greatsword in favor of the axe.


Dungeoncrasher is only worth while if you can pick up Knockback (Races of Stone) which gives you free Bull Rush attempts whenever you hit with Power Attack. But since you're not a Large race and don't have Powerful Build, you can't qualify for the feat. So I'd skip it.

That's too bad. I REALLY like the flavor of it, even though it isn't optimal. I may take it anyway, simply for flavor.



Power Attack + Improved Bull Rush + Shock Trooper + Leap Attack is pretty much required if you want high damage output heading into mid-levels.

I'm definitely going that route. Dungeoncrasher will simply cause me to wait until level 12 to get Leap Attack.



I'd skip Combat Brute unless you're making a Sunder build, which are situational and tend to destroy your party treasure.

Me: "Is the enemy's weapon at least a masterwork?"
DM: "No"
Me: "I sunder their weapon"

By this time, I'll have gotten the Axe upgraded to Admantine.

The other main reason I like Combat Brute is the Momentum Swing, which allows me to follow up a charge with a another triple multiplier power attack. And the other ability, which gives me bonuses on my attack after a bull rush, which I figure I'll be using a lot since I have improved bullrush. Although, the +1 or +2 to my attack really isn't very much.



If you prefer defense, then Combat Focus + Combat Vigor + Combat Stability will give you +4 to Will Saves, Fast Healing 4, and +8 to resist all Trip/Bull Rush/etc. attacks. Die Hard would also be a good idea.

I'd thought of Die Hard, but he uses Action Points in his game. You can use one action point to stabilize yourself if you're at negative hitpoints. We also have a Godly presence watching over us, which allows us to, as an immediate action, heal twice our level in hit points. Our characters are not aware that they have this ability, it's an OOC action.


What do you want your barbarian to do primarily? If mean, if he's a charger you NEED Shock Trooper somewhere in there (which requires Imp. Bull Rush)
Massive damage, interceptor (he has boots of striding), super-strong guy with flavor. Flavor is why I want more options, even if those options are sub-optimal ... like sunder, grapple, bull-rush, etc.

Craig1f
2007-12-07, 03:27 PM
The team includes an archer ranger, a duskblade, a sorcerer, a rogue, some gnome that's roguish but isn't a rogue, and a wizard/duskblade ultimate magnus.

Craig1f
2007-12-07, 03:29 PM
I'm also thinking that, while it's definitely neat, Cleave is not a must-have. I'm reluctant to get rid of it though.

Steadfast determination, at the moment, really only results in a +2 to will saves. But that will improve when I get a better CON score, and if I end up getting dominated or confused, I will destroy my party.

Telonius
2007-12-07, 03:40 PM
I know Cleave is one of those traditional feats for smashy types to get, but I'd be very hesitant to take it. It gives you one extra attack, every once in awhile. Other feats can grant more options. You don't have all that many feats to throw around.

Channeled Rage from Races of Destiny might be a good one, if you have half-orc blood and are concerned about will saves. Intimidating Rage from Complete Warrior turns the Intimidate/Demoralize option into something actually combat-useful.

Person_Man
2007-12-07, 03:47 PM
Naw. Gotta keep the Greataxe. It's Tordac's tribal axe, given to him by the Fox Tribe for combat prowess.

I respect that. You can still use Headlong Rush with Karmic Strike and Combat Reflexes. The combo will still work well.

You might also want to take the Ancestral Relic feat from Book of Exalted Deeds. It lets you sacrifice gp and/or items to improve your ancestral relic, which means you don't have to sell treasure you find (for 50% of the listed cost) to improve your signature magic item.



That's too bad. I REALLY like the flavor of it, even though it isn't optimal. I may take it anyway, simply for flavor.

Flavor can be roleplayed. You don't need to waste a feat to get an alternate class feature you'll rarely have the chance to use in order to enjoy beating people into a wall. You can just describe yourself beating people into a wall when you hit them.

If you end up taking it anyway, see if your DM will let you take the Knockback weapon property from Complete Warrior, and if he'll let it work with Dungeoncrasher. By RAW it doesn't, because its the weapon which Bull Rush's enemies, not you. And the magical property was nerfed when they updated it in the Magic Item Compendium. But hey, you never know what some DMs will allow.



Me: "Is the enemy's weapon at least a masterwork?"
DM: "No"
Me: "I sunder their weapon"

By this time, I'll have gotten the Axe upgraded to Admantine.

How do you upgrade a weapon to adamantine? You can't just add it as a magical property. The weapon has to be forged from that particular metal.

Also, there's no need to disarm an enemy if they're dead. An a Half-Orc Barbarian/Fighter with Pounce, you should be able to kill anything with full attack action. With Headlong Rush + Leap Attack, you should be able to kill almost any CR appropriate enemy with just 1 attack. Disarming/Sundering is only a useful tactic if you're fighting against something with very high hit points that depends on items/weapons in order to harm you. Not a lot of enemies fall into that category.


The other main reason I like Combat Brute is the Momentum Swing.

Momentum Swing is helpful, but you won't get nearly as much damage out of it as you would from Headlong Rush or Leap Attack.

Anywho, your base build is just fine. So we're really just arguing over how many megatons your nuclear weapon should be here.

Craig1f
2007-12-07, 03:55 PM
I know Cleave is one of those traditional feats for smashy types to get, but I'd be very hesitant to take it. It gives you one extra attack, every once in awhile. Other feats can grant more options. You don't have all that many feats to throw around.

Channeled Rage from Races of Destiny might be a good one, if you have half-orc blood and are concerned about will saves. Intimidating Rage from Complete Warrior turns the Intimidate/Demoralize option into something actually combat-useful.

Yeah, but when you're doing 1d12 + 15, an extra attack is no joke. It allowed me to cut through an army in the last adventure, killing two guys a round.

You're right though, it will start to become obsolete as enemies stop dying in single hits, and I get iterative attacks. Maybe I'll wait until level 11 to trade it in though, since I'll have 3 attacks at that point.

Craig1f
2007-12-07, 03:59 PM
I respect that. You can still use Headlong Rush with Karmic Strike and Combat Reflexes. The combo will still work well.

You might also want to take the Ancestral Relic feat from Book of Exalted Deeds. It lets you sacrifice gp and/or items to improve your ancestral relic, which means you don't have to sell treasure you find (for 50% of the listed cost) to improve your signature magic item.

Oooh, nice. I just wish I didn't have to blow a feat on it!


Flavor can be roleplayed. You don't need to waste a feat to get an alternate class feature you'll rarely have the chance to use in order to enjoy beating people into a wall. You can just describe yourself beating people into a wall when you hit them.


Good point.


How do you upgrade a weapon to adamantine? You can't just add it as a magical property. The weapon has to be forged from that particular metal.

I asked the DM earlier. His response is "talk to the dwarves when you get a chance." My guess is, they'll be able to coat the blade with admantine or something.

What I'd really like is Eleusive Target. For three feats, you can be immune to power attacks. That can be crucial when you charge a BBEG with Heedless Charge, your AC is now 2, and he decides to respond with a full-attack, at full power-attack.

Person_Man
2007-12-07, 04:13 PM
What I'd really like is Eleusive Target. For three feats, you can be immune to power attacks. That can be crucial when you charge a BBEG with Heedless Charge, your AC is now 2, and he decides to respond with a full-attack, at full power-attack.

Although its popular on the boards, I'm personally not a fan of Elusive Target. Most enemies don't use Power Attack. Even if they do, Elusive Target only applies to the subject of your Dodge bonus, not all enemies. So unless you have some sort of Dodge/movement/Trip build, I think its a waste to spend 3 feats to deal with a very situational problem.

In my opinion, you're better off just boosting your Con at every available opportunity. You might even want to take Improved Toughness to boost your hit point by +1 per hit die. You could also enchant your ax with some sort of vampiric magical enhancement to heal you. I've seen several in the various splat books.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-12-07, 04:19 PM
Also, you don't need to use a feat to make the weapon ancestral. You could always talk to your DM about imbuing the wep with your prowess and making it a legendary/legacy weapon, or go the old fashioned route and stick a bajillion enhancements as you level up. You can upgrade your magic items, FYI.

Grey Watcher
2007-12-07, 04:23 PM
...or pick up Karmic Strike to create an AoO attack loop (you charge enemy and hit him for double damage, provoke an AoO from Headlong Rush, which provokes an AoO from Karmic Strike - repeat until you or your enemy dies or one of you runs out of AoO).

OK, that idea literally made me laugh out loud. Bravo!

Renegade Paladin
2007-12-07, 04:25 PM
I would just like to point out that that particular Berserker weapon property is made up, because the official one (in Magic Item Compendium) grants +1d8 damage to all attacks made while in a rage/frenzy/similar.

Craig1f
2007-12-07, 04:42 PM
I would just like to point out that that particular Berserker weapon property is made up, because the official one (in Magic Item Compendium) grants +1d8 damage to all attacks made while in a rage/frenzy/similar.

I think it's from some Dragon Magazine or something, because some old school player had one on his new character in our last campaign.

It's not the one from Magic Item Compendium, you're right. And it's not in any 3.5 book that I'm aware of. The DM let me have it though. It's way better than a simple +1 enchantment though, and makes raging a lot more effective.

The one from Magic Item Compendium sucks. There needs to be more magical properties for items that benefit barbarians in rage.

daggaz
2007-12-07, 05:29 PM
N

Me: "Is the enemy's weapon at least a masterwork?"
DM: "No"
Me: "I sunder their weapon"

.

DM (me) Well... it looks decent, tho it can be pretty hard to tell, as the (insert opponent here) is swinging it around and trying to sink it into your forehead, rather than holding it out and giving you a good look at it. You can always try a spot check.. oh, whats that? you rolled a five? You only needed a ten. Hmm ok, well at any rate, you dont have detect magic anyhow, so you have no idea whether it is magical or not, regardless of how it looks at a first glance.

I do accept, on the other hand, "Does their weapon look like a total piece of homemade crap?" At which point, you still dont know if its magical, them kobolds can be tricky bastards..

Craig1f
2007-12-07, 05:40 PM
DM (me) Well... it looks decent, tho it can be pretty hard to tell, as the (insert opponent here) is swinging it around and trying to sink it into your forehead, rather than holding it out and giving you a good look at it. You can always try a spot check.. oh, whats that? you rolled a five? You only needed a ten. Hmm ok, well at any rate, you dont have detect magic anyhow, so you have no idea whether it is magical or not, regardless of how it looks at a first glance.

I do accept, on the other hand, "Does their weapon look like a total piece of homemade crap?" At which point, you still don't know if its magical, them kobolds can be tricky bastards..

If it's not masterwork, it can't be magical, according to the rules. So a Sundering Cleave will probably finish the monster off, but if it doesn't, the monster is unarmed (especially if I've already bought an admantine weapon).

Anyway, that's just for flavor. the main point of those feats would have been to get momentum swing. But perhaps that isn't as good of a feat as I originally thought.