Why are dinosaurs so weak?

[J-H]

https://youtu.be/cpipaUfcnmM?si=zqvj-VK4qP6aQYJC&t=145

Dragons are in the same size range as the Allosaurus to T-Rex (plus others like the Spinosaurus, yada yada... kid of the 80s, so Allosaurus and T-Rex for me).
Yet young dragons, the ones the size of horses (Large), are CR 6-8, and adults (Huge, so about 15-20' long) are around CR 14-16.
An Allosaurus (Large) is only CR 2, and a T-Rex (Huge) is only CR 8.

What advantage do dragons have? Intelligence, tougher scales, flight, and a 1-2/combat AOE breath weapon. Their AC is 6-8 higher than that of dinosaurs, presumably because they have magically tougher scales.

Dinosaurs stop being a serious threat by about CR 5. I think it'd be more fun (and offer more setting opportunities) if they stayed relevant and fear-inducing up to at least CR 12-14.

Thoughts on how to boost them? Tougher skin, to-hit penalties based on height, better attack routines so they aren't just bags of HP?

[stoutstien]

https://youtu.be/cpipaUfcnmM?si=zqvj-VK4qP6aQYJC&t=145

Dragons are in the same size range as the Allosaurus to T-Rex (plus others like the Spinosaurus, yada yada... kid of the 80s, so Allosaurus and T-Rex for me).
Yet young dragons, the ones the size of horses (Large), are CR 6-8, and adults (Huge, so about 15-20' long) are around CR 14-16.
An Allosaurus (Large) is only CR 2, and a T-Rex (Huge) is only CR 8.

What advantage do dragons have? Intelligence, tougher scales, flight, and a 1-2/combat AOE breath weapon. Their AC is 6-8 higher than that of dinosaurs, presumably because they have magically tougher scales.

Dinosaurs stop being a serious threat by about CR 5. I think it'd be more fun (and offer more setting opportunities) if they stayed relevant and fear-inducing up to at least CR 12-14.

Thoughts on how to boost them? Tougher skin, to-hit penalties based on height, better attack routines so they aren't just bags of HP?

Tropes. That's about it.

[Tanarii]

Because Tier 3 is high level game play. You should be well beyond dinosaurs at that point, unless there are quite a large group of them.

[Damon_Tor]

Dragons are magical, mythic threats, while dinosaurs are natural beasts theoretically bounded by biology and physical reality.

[Schwann145]

Because for some reason people think that Mother Nature shouldn't be a high level threat, despite being incredibly destructive.

Also, Druids can turn into beasts so beasts aren't allowed to be strong.

[Trask]

Druids, probably.

[Clistenes]

Dragons are magical, mythic threats, while dinosaurs are natural beasts theoretically bounded by biology and physical reality.

This. Dragons break the rules of nature, they go beyond flesh. They are more dangerous than dinosaurs for the same reasons say vampires are more dangerous than humans.

[Mechalich]

T-rex weighed somewhere between 5,000 and 7,000 kilos, making an adult roughly in the same mass range as an adult male African Bush Elephant (4,700 - 6,000). While a T-rex is a predator as opposed to an herbivore, elephants, are powerful, aggressive animals with dangerous natural weapons and probably only marginally less dangerous to a human in a circumstance where they are forced into direct conflict. Humans, however, have been killing elephants and other, equally large, animals like mammoths since the Paleolithic. Heck, humans have been killing whales, which are much more massive and have the advantage of living in water, for thousands of years. The reality is that, with preparation and knowledge of the technique, no animal, no matter how massive, is really that threating to armed and armored humans.

Dragons, by contrast, cheat. They possess a combination of traits that, taken together, is a massive violation of physical laws. The combination of supernatural toughness and flight being a big one; large flying animals are almost universally incredibly spindly compared to ground dwelling animals of a similar overall mass for extremely solid biomechanical reasons. A ranged attack is also a big help. The number of animals with any sort of ranged attack in the real world is incredibly limited, as is reach: the overwhelming majority of animals attack by thrusting their head at their target, which is an extremely dangerous approach to anyone able to interpose a pointed stick between said animal and their flesh. As such, the breath weapon allows a dragon to be functionally more dangerous than any natural beast can be.

[KorvinStarmast]

Because Tier 3 is high level game play. You should be well beyond dinosaurs at that point, unless there are quite a large group of them. Concur.

Dragons break the rules of nature, they go beyond flesh. They are more dangerous than dinosaurs for the same reasons say vampires are more dangerous than humans. Good comparison.

Dragons, by contrast, cheat.
They possess a combination of traits that, taken together, is a massive violation of physical laws. The combination of supernatural toughness and flight being a big one; large flying animals are almost universally incredibly spindly compared to ground dwelling animals of a similar overall mass for extremely solid biomechanical reasons. A ranged attack is also a big help. The number of animals with any sort of ranged attack in the real world is incredibly limited, as is reach: the overwhelming majority of animals attack by thrusting their head at their target, which is an extremely dangerous approach to anyone able to interpose a pointed stick between said animal and their flesh. As such, the breath weapon allows a dragon to be functionally more dangerous than any natural beast can be.

:smallsmile:

[Dr.Samurai]

https://youtu.be/cpipaUfcnmM?si=zqvj-VK4qP6aQYJC&t=145

Dragons are in the same size range as the Allosaurus to T-Rex (plus others like the Spinosaurus, yada yada... kid of the 80s, so Allosaurus and T-Rex for me).
Yet young dragons, the ones the size of horses (Large), are CR 6-8, and adults (Huge, so about 15-20' long) are around CR 14-16.
An Allosaurus (Large) is only CR 2, and a T-Rex (Huge) is only CR 8.

What advantage do dragons have? Intelligence, tougher scales, flight, and a 1-2/combat AOE breath weapon. Their AC is 6-8 higher than that of dinosaurs, presumably because they have magically tougher scales.

Dinosaurs stop being a serious threat by about CR 5. I think it'd be more fun (and offer more setting opportunities) if they stayed relevant and fear-inducing up to at least CR 12-14.

Thoughts on how to boost them? Tougher skin, to-hit penalties based on height, better attack routines so they aren't just bags of HP?
I am assuming you are trying to stay faithful to real world dinosaurs, right? So no like... stegosaurs shooting tail spikes or anything like that?

I think buffing their AC and HP, and then giving them special attacks.

Triceratops has Trampling Charge already. But what if you gave it a Skewer ability with it's horns, that grapples and restrains an enemy (and Triceratops' speed is unaffected by moving with a grappled opponent). The skull frill/shield thing that it has can deflect attacks as a reaction? Like a boost to AC or imposes Disadvantage. Give it similar attack routines to a dragon; stomp, gore, bite, tail.

Ankylosaurs need much tougher ACs, a tail slam that can stun on a failed save, knock prone on a pass. Damage to any foe grappling it or hitting it with natural/unarmed strikes. Damage resistance to normal attacks. More attacks (Gore, like it rams into you and thrashes with armor spikes + Tail). Maybe a "Hunker Down" ability where it gets very low to the ground so only it's spiked armor is exposed (so big defensive buffs), but it can still swing it's tail (maybe with Disadvantage to hit).

Dire versions could have Legendary Actions as well, either mobility, extra attacks, or special features like "Hunker Down" or "Skewer".

T-Rex can Bite, Tail, or Stomp. If it stomps, the creature is Prone and Grapple+Restrained, as the T-Rex holds it to the ground underfoot. Each turn the creature doesn't escape the grapple it takes bludgeoning damage as it is crushed. A grapple+restrained creature from the Bite Attack can be tossed (deal Bite damage + impact/falling damage and the creature lands X squares away in a direction of the T-Rex's choice). Tail attack should Push/Prone on a failed saving throw. Legendary Actions could be something like "Rake", any creature grappled by the T-Rex's Stomp attack is thrown behind it X squares and takes bludgeoning and slashing damage.

I'll think of more later today.

(The idea of to-hit penalties based on height is interesting. What about a feature like "Titanic Build" or something that says "Attacks made without a Reach weapon have Disadvantage" or something like that. Feature doesn't apply to flying characters or those making attacks from an elevated position.)

[Willie the Duck]

Also, Druids can turn into beasts so beasts aren't allowed to be strong.
I suspect it's the other way around. All the way bitd Druids getting to turn into animals as a side-ability alongside their spells was deemed reasonable because it wasn't that crazy of a perk in the first place.

I think people have the right of it -- the game has long been envisioned to be one where you fight kobolds and orcs and wolves at level 1, bears and ogres at level 4, really big bears and hill giants at level 6, and dragons and demons and halls full of fire giants or whatnot at higher levels. 5e flattens it out a bit in that more weaker enemies can be as strong (or honestly stronger) than one really powerful enemy, but the general trend has stayed the same.


Dinosaurs stop being a serious threat by about CR 5. I think it'd be more fun (and offer more setting opportunities) if they stayed relevant and fear-inducing up to at least CR 12-14.

Thoughts on how to boost them? Tougher skin, to-hit penalties based on height, better attack routines so they aren't just bags of HP?
There are plenty of ways. Simple number increases is the easiest. Making sure they have 2-3 attacks works. Simply moving the to-hit up by 3-4 or AC from 11-13 to 14-16 does wonders to how much of a threat a bag-of-hp monster is. If you want them to just feel more interesting, perhaps a successful bite would allow them to pick up a medium-sized character and thrash them about (for additional damage, and perhaps pulling them out of range for touch-based buff/heal spells). Swallow mechanics have always been kinda either too-powerful or too weak, so I would hesitate there. Maybe some kind of 'toss opponents away' ability?

A lot of the horizontal dinosaurs have tramples that only proc when they just charged and knocked someone down, and fights often end up with 0-1 rounds where such a charge is likely. Perhaps a trip-effect while already in melee would make the trample ability less of a paper tiger.

[Imbalance]

Master?
https://media.tenor.com/0L9RlSTfPZYAAAAC/meet-the.gif

Generally I like them as an unexpected encounter, like, when locals advise to beware, and they're sort of ever-present in the background while the party deals with more fantastical threats, then they turn a corner and meet a huge carnivore on the hunt, or snap a twig and start a thunderous herbivore stampede. More N64 Era Turok than Dino Crisis, if I may, though I've also thought of ramping up tension with critters that scent blood. Being generous enough with healing pots, but making it so that if HP are not completely restored, a character will be stalked as prey in certain settings. Any pack hunting dino, real or fictionalized, is perfect for that.

[Tanarii]

I think people have the right of it -- the game has long been envisioned to be one where you fight kobolds and orcs and wolves at level 1, bears and ogres at level 4, really big bears and hill giants at level 6, and dragons and demons and halls full of fire giants or whatnot at higher levels. 5e flattens it out a bit in that more weaker enemies can be as strong (or honestly stronger) than one really powerful enemy, but the general trend has stayed the same.
This is a common perception problem with 5e. That because the base PHB goes to 20, that thru level 10 is "low level". While that was true for previous editions back as far as 2e, it's exacerbated in 5e because level advancement is lightning fast.

And for many folks, this perception translates into wanting solo humanoids to be a threat through Tier 1, Beasts thru Tier 2, etc.

But that's not how it works, even in 5e. The relative threat levels of the level bands remain more or less in place. We just out-level them faster now.

[strangebloke]

Very simply, beasts in DND are just atrociously weak relative to everything else in the game. A T-Rex in DND isn't an apex predator, its like a jackal or hyena compared to the young dragon's lion or tiger.

In real life, something like a warhorse is insanely fast and strong and tough. Sure, they're really fast and heavy so they can hurt themselves badly, but if you ever have fallen down the "farm veterinarian" rabbit hole on youtube you'll have seen videos of people pulling six-inch nails out of horses that they didn't even seem to notice beyond mild discomfort. Horses and Elk and such can kill humans by accident. Something like a bear or gorilla can maul a human trivially.

...And in 5e, these things cap out at like CR 1. IRL a big asset of riding a warhorse is that functionally its just way more dangerous and hard to kill than the guy riding it. In 5e, the warhorse is insanely fast and maneuverable, but also hilariously fragile (also hilarious, the way to make the horse stay alive involves making it almost impossible to hit. The Horse can have invasion and be constantly dodging! Ninja horse!)

[Dr.Samurai]

Horses and Elk and such can kill humans by accident. Something like a bear or gorilla can maul a human trivially.
Speak for yourself!

*puffs up chest and struts away*

[J-H]

Very simply, beasts in DND are just atrociously weak relative to everything else in the game. A T-Rex in DND isn't an apex predator, its like a jackal or hyena compared to the young dragon's lion or tiger.

In real life, something like a warhorse is insanely fast and strong and tough. Sure, they're really fast and heavy so they can hurt themselves badly, but if you ever have fallen down the "farm veterinarian" rabbit hole on youtube you'll have seen videos of people pulling six-inch nails out of horses that they didn't even seem to notice beyond mild discomfort. Horses and Elk and such can kill humans by accident. Something like a bear or gorilla can maul a human trivially.

...And in 5e, these things cap out at like CR 1. IRL a big asset of riding a warhorse is that functionally its just way more dangerous and hard to kill than the guy riding it. In 5e, the warhorse is insanely fast and maneuverable, but also hilariously fragile (also hilarious, the way to make the horse stay alive involves making it almost impossible to hit. The Horse can have invasion and be constantly dodging! Ninja horse!)

This is true.
You just reminded me of the time I saw a pig shot in the head at point blank range with a .22LR three separate times at the butcher. It didn't even notice! Thick and sloped skull and the bullet wasn't in the right spot. Try that with a human and you'd have a dead human most of the time.

So really the solution is "rebalance all the animals."

[stoutstien]

This is true.
You just reminded me of the time I saw a pig shot in the head at point blank range with a .22LR three separate times at the butcher. It didn't even notice! Thick and sloped skull and the bullet wasn't in the right spot. Try that with a human and you'd have a dead human most of the time.

So really the solution is "rebalance all the animals."

I see where you are going with this but most captive bolt slaughter pistols are 22 cals and with the right projectile even a standard 22LR pistol will go through a swine skull at short range. Finding steel cored rimfire is nigh impossible last 19-15 years though due to legal reasons.

**It actually was cheaper than copper plated stuff when it was around**

Pigs are tough but not the bullet proof behemoths that urban legends woul have you believe. Nasty if cornered.

**Source- wife wanted mangalitsa pigs so we have them.**

[Tanarii]

...And in 5e, these things cap out at like CR 1.
With good reason. A human is CR 0. A trained Guard is CR 1/8. A CR1 is roughly 4-8 times as deadly as a normal human.

Beasts (including dinosaurs) aren't weak. Adventurers are ludicrously strong.

[J-H]

I saw it in person, at a butcher's while waiting for mine to get done. It was definitely a bolt action rifle, not captive-bolt. It could have been .22 shorts instead of LR, but not subsonics.

[stoutstien]

I saw it in person, at a butcher's while waiting for mine to get done. It was definitely a bolt action rifle, not captive-bolt. It could have been .22 shorts instead of LR, but not subsonics.

Oh I believe you it's just a question of projectile construction not actual energy. A lot of farmers ran into this issue when they pulled cheap steel cored ammo from the shelves which lead to all kinds of weird stories about boars shrugging off proverbial cannon fire.

It's also why they should be using a penetrating captive bolt tool rather a small game projectile.

[Schwann145]

A trained Guard is CR 1/8.

More accurately, the single printed example of a Guard (nothing says they're "trained") in the basic rules is CR 1/8. If every guard everywhere was only CR 1/8, the profession would die out, as just about every threat in the world can chew through them without much issue.

[Mastikator]

With good reason. A human is CR 0. A trained Guard is CR 1/8. A CR1 is roughly 4-8 times as deadly as a normal human.

Beasts (including dinosaurs) aren't weak. Adventurers are ludicrously strong.

Bingo. Adventurers are superheroes, D&D is a power fantasy.

[Amnestic]

There's nothing inherently more "magical" about a Purple Worm (CR15) than a T-Rex, so I don't think "it's tier 3, everything is magical now" holds water. The purple worm has an acid stomach, a poison stinger, and a burrow speed - all features of distinctly non-magical beasts already in print in 5e. In previous editions it was a natural beast (4e) and magical beast (3.5) though, I couldn't see much that warranted them being called magical other than being...big.

So I expect polymorph is to blame for there being fewer higher CR beasts, that and fewer higher CR creatures being printed in general.

[titi]

More accurately, the single printed example of a Guard (nothing says they're "trained") in the basic rules is CR 1/8. If every guard everywhere was only CR 1/8, the profession would die out, as just about every threat in the world can chew through them without much issue.

This is entirely dependant on how many threats higher in cr there are out there.
But at the end of the day, even the knight is only cr3, and knights are pretty much elite soldiers.

[J-H]

The CR3 Knight is around the power level of a 6th level fighter with lower ability scores and no racial bonuses.
HP 52 vs Fighter w/ Con 14's 52hp at 6th level
+5 to hit vs Fighter's +6 to hit at 16 str
Adv vs fear, AOE +1d4 attack/save bonus that's...not a reaction but appears more like a poorly-named aura, but as listed as an Action?
Parry +2 AC vs Fighter's +3 from a Defensive Duelist-like effect.

Class levels->CR are not steady across PC classes, though.

[Schwann145]

This is entirely dependant on how many threats higher in cr there are out there.
But at the end of the day, even the knight is only cr3, and knights are pretty much elite soldiers.

But if every statblock is the "true" representation of every creature...
Goblins overrun guards, since they're CR 1/4 compared to guards at CR 1/8. And that's tier 1 creatures.
Hobgoblins are even more likely to stomp all over guards as CR 1/2 enemies.
An offensive of goblins is probably going to bring some CR 1/2 Worgs to the fight too.
Bugbears bringing that strong CR 1 to the fight.
And the Hobgoblin Captain can match the Knight with CR 3.
So the CR3 Knight or two leading their guards is going to be very unlikely to be able to handle the Hobgoblin Captain leading a force of goblin soldiers with Hobgoblins and Bugbears acting as "lieutenants."

And that's just Goblinoids.

If we "Tolkien-it-up" and say it's an enemy of invading Orcs (CR 1/2) with a handful of Orogs and Ogres (CR 2 each) and a maybe even a single Troll (CR 5)...
Yeah, all the CR 1/8 Guards are dying. Every time, if Guards are always CR 1/8.
Perfectly suited to defending against Cultists and Bandits (each CR 1/8 as well) and just about nothing else.

Also, keep in mind, a Noble Courtier (not trained in combat else they wouldn't be a Courtier) is also a CR 1/8. Why is a fop equal to a guard?
We gotta stop insisting that the statblocks provided are absolute.
They're guidelines.

====================================

To complain about Beasts a bit more...

Can we talk about Elephants? How is their Trample DC only a 12?
If we deconstruct that a bit, I'm looking at a CR 4 Beast with 22 Strength. That'll give it a +2 Proficiency Bonus and a +6 Strength Bonus. Since everything starts with 8, that Trample DC should be a 16, not a 12!

But... Beasts aren't allowed to have nice things.

[Unoriginal]

Don't have the time to dissect everything in this thread right now due to needing to go to work, but I have to say:

The Noble statblock represents a noble (or courtier, or similar) with some martial training, since they are proficient in both the rapier and the breastplate (which they wear), and are good enough a fencer to have Parry as a reaction.

They're not beasts of war by any means, but they are trained still.

[Tanarii]

Don't have the time to dissect everything in this thread right now due to needing to go to work, but I have to say:

The Noble statblock represents a noble (or courtier, or similar) with some martial training, since they are proficient in both the rapier and the breastplate (which they wear), and are good enough a fencer to have Parry as a reaction.

They're not beasts of war by any means, but they are trained still.
Yup. Any "common" human that's a bit armed and armored and trained is usually CR 1/8. That makes them less dangerous than many baseline "early opponent" humanoids and beasts, which are often the CR 1/2-CR1 range.

And that's as it should be. These are the guys that will be wiped out by the other guys if the level 1-2 PCs don't step up and DO something!

More advanced / dangerous beasts and humanoids stay relevant through Tier 1 and maybe st the beginning of Tier 2. After that, you're on to the fantastical.

[JackPhoenix]

But if every statblock is the "true" representation of every creature...
Goblins overrun guards, since they're CR 1/4 compared to guards at CR 1/8. And that's tier 1 creatures.
Hobgoblins are even more likely to stomp all over guards as CR 1/2 enemies.
An offensive of goblins is probably going to bring some CR 1/2 Worgs to the fight too.
Bugbears bringing that strong CR 1 to the fight.
And the Hobgoblin Captain can match the Knight with CR 3.
So the CR3 Knight or two leading their guards is going to be very unlikely to be able to handle the Hobgoblin Captain leading a force of goblin soldiers with Hobgoblins and Bugbears acting as "lieutenants."

And then you compare actual stats, and not just CR.
A guard has better AC and more HP than a goblin, but worse attack and damage, lacks ranged weapon and goblin's mobility. A guard can one-shot a goblin without a crit, while the opposite isn't true.
Hobgoblins are practically identical to guards (they have the exact same statline, except worse cha), but have better gear and have advantage when working together
Worgs are dangerous. That's why guards have walls on their side.
Bugbears are dangerous, sure.
Hobgoblin captain has Martial Advantage, but is otherwise inferior to a knight in everything. Why are the knights stuck with only guards as a backup, when they can bring some scouts, archers, veterans or even acolytes or priests along, anyway? Sounds like goblinoid invasion calls for an actual army.

And more importantly... when a goblinoid army decides to conquer something... it usually will, and then it's the PCs job to sort things out, isn't it?

[Amechra]

I suspect it's the other way around. All the way bitd Druids getting to turn into animals as a side-ability alongside their spells was deemed reasonable because it wasn't that crazy of a perk in the first place.

Bold of you to assume that they believed in balance back in the day. Animals were scary back then, that's why it was cool that your Ranger could make friends with them and your Druid could turn into them.

Honestly, what I'm pretty sure happened:

Back in the day, Druids and Rangers got iconic animal-related abilities, including the Druid's high-ish level ability to turn into them (in 5e terms, pre-3e D&D kinda-sorta had a soft level cap at the end of T2).
When 5e was being designed, a decision was made to let classes get access to their iconic abilities as soon as possible, so Wild Shape was moved down to level 2.
The Druid's most iconic animal forms were nerfed so that it wouldn't be broken to turn into a bear off the bat.
"Hey, why do animals all suck?"


As for the "adventurers are just that awesome" ego-stroking... the thing is that most kinds of monsters have had a pretty stable power level over the years other than animals. Like, if you were converting a 2e module to 5e and one of the encounters was with a black bear (the weakest bear), you'd have to replace it with a buffed polar bear for it to be roughly as threatening as it was in the original. If that same module had some ogres in it, on the other hand, you could just use the 5e stats for ogres and call it a day.

And the guard thing... it looks like the idea is that those are the stats for militia or raw recruits, given that military veterans and knights are both CR 3 and the local bully-boy is CR 1/2. Which feels pretty appropriate to me - your average small village is guarded by, like, one guy with actual military experience and a bunch of farmers that they've taught the basics to, which is why they need the help of your motley crew of 3-5 misfits to fight off the hobgoblins. Which says some really interesting things about the setting...

[Joe the Rat]

Militia-type guards makes sense here - I'd even allow for run-of-the-mill city watch here as well. We really could use a CR 1ish "soldier" or "sergent" - something to nestle between Guard and Veteran for trained professional, but not elite.

As-is, I typically use Veterans and Archers (and some low level casters) when "competent not-cannon-fodder NPC warriors" are called for, and the recipe says "storebought is fine."

[J-H]

Militia-type guards makes sense here - I'd even allow for run-of-the-mill city watch here as well. We really could use a CR 1ish "soldier" or "sergent" - something to nestle between Guard and Veteran for trained professional, but not elite.

As-is, I typically use Veterans and Archers (and some low level casters) when "competent not-cannon-fodder NPC warriors" are called for, and the recipe says "storebought is fine."
Here's an Amnish City Guard statblock I put together a while ago for my Baldur's Gate II campaign. I haven't used it yet.
Intentionally designed to reflect arresting, less-lethal crowd control, and being part of a larger force. Shove or manacles means cuffing a non-incapacitated target takes a minimum of 2 guards.
No ranged weapons because I don't see them walking around with a strong crossbow or shortbow, and hand crossbows are dumb don't fit in any of my settings.

Amnish City Guard
Medium Humanoid
Armor Class 17 (Splint)
Hit Points 24
Speed 30 ft.
Str Dex Con Int Wis Cha
13(+1) 12(+1) 12(+1) 10(0) 12(+1) 10(0)
Saves Str +3, Wis +3
Skills Athletics +3, Insight +3, Perception +3
Senses Passive Perception 13
CR ½
Actions
Multiattack. The guard makes two attacks, or attempts to use Manacles.
Halberd. Melee Weapon Attack, +3 to hit, 10’, 1d10+1 slashing damage.
Haft Shove. Melee Weapon Attack, +3 to hit, 10’, 1d4+1 bludgeoning damage. Target must make a DC 11 Strength save or be knocked prone or pushed back 5’ (guard’s choice).
Manacles. Target must be prone, grappled, or restrained. The target must make a DC 11 Dexterity save or have Manacles applied to it. This reduces its speed by 10’, and prevents wielding two-handed weapons, casting spells with somatic components, climbing, or swimming.
Escaping the manacles requires a DC 20 Dexterity check, or DC 20 Strength check to break them. A DC 15 Thieves Tools check is sufficient to pick the lock, but the DC is 25 if the person making the check is manacled. Guards also carry manacle keys in a standard pattern.
Bonus Actions
Whistle. Blows his whistle loudly, summoning reinforcements that will arrive in 1 minute. If other guards are nearby, they arrive in 1d4 rounds instead.

[KorvinStarmast]

Militia-type guards makes sense here - I'd even allow for run-of-the-mill city watch here as well. We really could use a CR 1ish "soldier" or "sergent" - something to nestle between Guard and Veteran for trained professional, but not elite.

As-is, I typically use Veterans and Archers (and some low level casters) when "competent not-cannon-fodder NPC warriors" are called for, and the recipe says "storebought is fine." A few years back, in a roll20 side quest, I upgraded Thug to accommodate that sergeant kind of figure. Better armor was one of the points of the upgrade.

[Tanarii]

As for the "adventurers are just that awesome" ego-stroking... the thing is that most kinds of monsters have had a pretty stable power level over the years other than animals. Like, if you were converting a 2e module to 5e and one of the encounters was with a black bear (the weakest bear), you'd have to replace it with a buffed polar bear for it to be roughly as threatening as it was in the original.
No they haven't and no you wouldn't. A 5e black bear has the same to hit, better AC, better damage, and more HPs than a 2e Black Bear.

What has happened, as stated, is adventurers got more awesome in 5e. Technically in 3e, but there was also an additional noticeable power jump relative to normal non-adventurers in the move to 5e.

They've already increased animal (and humanoid) power quite a bit so they still are a threat at the appropriate level band. Could they bump up powerful animals by one step (CR 1/2->1, CR+1 after that)? Sure. But they don't need much more than that to stay within the same parameter that was aimed for, mainly Tier 1 before you move on to the fantastic stuff.

If anything, they should slow down leveling. Or just make level 11+ an Epic Level Handbook. That would help correct the perception problem that has developed (all the way back as far as 2e), that Tier 3 / level 11 is some kind of mid-level.

[Mastikator]

As for the "adventurers are just that awesome" ego-stroking... the thing is that most kinds of monsters have had a pretty stable power level over the years other than animals. Like, if you were converting a 2e module to 5e and one of the encounters was with a black bear (the weakest bear), you'd have to replace it with a buffed polar bear for it to be roughly as threatening as it was in the original. If that same module had some ogres in it, on the other hand, you could just use the 5e stats for ogres and call it a day.

It's not ego stroking, the DMG spells it out in the Create a Campaign -> Tiers of play section. Level 1-4: local heroes
"The fate of a village might hang on the success or failure of low-level adventurers, [...] These characters navigate dangerous terrain [...], where they can expect to fight [...] ferocious wolves, giant spiders, [...]"

At level 5 they are heroes of the realm. And I'm sorry but realms are not threatened by beasts, no not even a Tyrannosaurs Rex. A T. Rex is an incredible threat for a city watch guard but for a 7th level fighter it's just a Tuesday.

[SociopathFriend]

I was under the impression darn-near everything that's meant to be used as a mount generally was made weaker than adventurers that encounter such things regularly.

Dinosaurs can be mounted (and raced) and so there's a soft limit for how strong they're allowed to be.

[Schwann145]

It's not ego stroking, the DMG spells it out in the Create a Campaign -> Tiers of play section. Level 1-4: local heroes
"The fate of a village might hang on the success or failure of low-level adventurers, [...] These characters navigate dangerous terrain [...], where they can expect to fight [...] ferocious wolves, giant spiders, [...]"

At level 5 they are heroes of the realm. And I'm sorry but realms are not threatened by beasts, no not even a Tyrannosaurs Rex. A T. Rex is an incredible threat for a city watch guard but for a 7th level fighter it's just a Tuesday.

{Scrubbed}

[LudicSavant]

Brute strength is really lacking from animals in 5e. Gorillas can't even match a fraction of their non-combat strength feats in D&D.

Well, really, this is a universal problem. It's part of the reasons Barbarians are lame. You want them to be like Thorkell the Tall or at least Gregor Clegane, come on.

Someone just... didn't really make the strength scaling go much beyond 'basically a dude at the gym.' Not even like, a world class GOAT dude at the gym. Just a dude at the gym.

[Amnestic]

I was under the impression darn-near everything that's meant to be used as a mount


Anything can be used as a mount if you're brave enough.

[Mastikator]

Brute strength is really lacking from animals in 5e. Gorillas can't even match a fraction of their non-combat strength feats in D&D.

Well, really, this is a universal problem. It's part of the reasons Barbarians are lame. You want them to be like Thorkell the Tall or at least Gregor Clegane, come on.

Someone just... didn't really make the strength scaling go much beyond 'basically a dude at the gym.' Not even like, a world class GOAT dude at the gym. Just a dude at the gym.

Hmm? The world record for lifting above head is 542 lbs. A human with 20 strength can lift 600lbs. An orc with 20 strength can lift 1200lbs, which is also the deadlift world record.

Edit- can't find gorilla stat block.

[Imbalance]

Anything can be used as a mount if you're brave enough.

A cowboy's life is in the saddle, no matter what the saddle is on?

[stoutstien]

Hmm? The world record for lifting above head is 542 lbs. A human with 20 strength can lift 600lbs. An orc with 20 strength can lift 1200lbs, which is also the deadlift world record.

Edit- can't find gorilla stat block.

For comparison an average fighter is breaking long jump world records while wearing full plate, shooting a bow, and hauling backpack full of gold all day long so there is a stark break in relative types of strength within 5e.

*They are guidelines for exerting yourself beyond the standard limits that strength outlines but it's not well presented.*

[titi]

the "problem" isn't so much that strength doesn't represent itself well, it's more that you don't have as many occasions to use it than in real life.

[LudicSavant]

Hmm? The world record for lifting above head is 542 lbs. A human with 20 strength can lift 600lbs. An orc with 20 strength can lift 1200lbs, which is also the deadlift world record.

https://static.ffx.io/images/$zoom_1%2C$multiply_1.3778%2C$ratio_1.777778%2C$wi dth_450%2C$x_0%2C$y_69/t_crop_custom/q_86%2Cf_auto/be61885eb43126026e1b706e652b5ebe08c712fa
"On 31 January 2015, Hafþór beat a 1,000-year-old record set by Orm Storolfsson at the World's Strongest Viking competition in Norway, where he carried a 10-metre-long (33 ft), 650-kilogram (1,430 lb) log for five steps."

"The third event was the frame carry. With a weight of 360kg (792lbs), the grip from this particular frame left many athletes struggling to carry the frame even for a few short meters. Only three athletes were able to complete the entire 40 meter (131.2ft) course. Thor won this event using his long legs to his advantage completing the course in only 24.16 seconds."

That mere ~542 pound record you're looking at is for one of the hardest kinds of lifts, and not just lifting it but getting it over your head. The record for other kinds of lifts are far higher! And this is just for regular humans, not even like, low-magic setting barbarians.

But here's the real kicker -- the D&D lift weight is the same as the push or drag weight! Even if you presume that when D&D says lifting off the ground it really means a deadlift-over-head, people can push or drag waaaaay more weight than the deadlift-over-head record.

But even more relevant than the real life human is the fantasy human, and I'm not even talking like, crazy Hecules stuff, I just mean like "Conan lifting a rock that's like, as big as he is" tier feats. Rocks are heavy, it turns out -- the weights get into the tons pretty quick.

Those poor giants trying to throw boulders are gonna throw their backs out, even with their size multipliers to lifting weight!

But then we get to animals. A killer whale has just 19 Strength. In real life, they're so strong they can do stuff like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7WGIH35JBE

or propel their own immense bodies into the air like this:
https://sm.mashable.com/t/mashable_sea/photo/default/untitled-design_5fp5.1248.png


*They are guidelines for exerting yourself beyond the standard limits that strength outlines but it's not well presented.*

Yeah.

[Tanarii]

Hmm? The world record for lifting above head is 542 lbs. A human with 20 strength can lift 600lbs. An orc with 20 strength can lift 1200lbs, which is also the deadlift world record.
Yup. And IMO like any world record, it is the the kind of lift where the DM allows a Str check to exceed your normal lift capacity. Probably with a bonus to the check from the Bard cheering them on from the sidelines. :)

Not to mention by default rules, that Str 20 character can move at full speed and jump 20ft.

[Dr.Samurai]

Having played many strong characters, leaping 4-5 squares is great, and grappling monsters is great.

Out of combat is depressing. Breaking stuff, bending stuff, opening things is always a hassle. Very rarely do you feel like you're living up to the fantasy.

[Trask]

the "problem" isn't so much that strength doesn't represent itself well, it's more that you don't have as many occasions to use it than in real life.

That speaks more to adventure design than anything else. Old school d&d fighters had entire features that like "open doors" and "bend bars/lift gates" that perform the same function as an athletics check. It shows how commonly such obstacles were expected to be encountered in the game.

[stoutstien]

That speaks more to adventure design than anything else. Old school d&d fighters had entire features that like "open doors" and "bend bars/lift gates" that perform the same function as an athletics check. It shows how commonly such obstacles were expected to be encountered in the game.

If you want to be depressed regarding this look at the average ability checks involving strength (most don't even allow athletics at face value) in published modules. They are regularly 10 or more higher than a relevant non strength check

[Dr.Samurai]

That speaks more to adventure design than anything else. Old school d&d fighters had entire features that like "open doors" and "bend bars/lift gates" that perform the same function as an athletics check. It shows how commonly such obstacles were expected to be encountered in the game.
Intriguing. I have to look at the OSE stuff and see if there's a hybrid of old school and modern D&D.

If you want to be depressed regarding this look at the average ability checks involving strength (most don't even allow athletics at face value) in published modules. They are regularly 10 or more higher than a relevant non strength check
This has been my experience as well. As a charity the DM usually allows Athletics, but generally these checks are straight Strength checks.

[ptownazkikr]

They printed some much stronger ones in the Plane Shift Ixilan, a free resource you can find here: (Sorry I can't post links yet. Google it.)

Namely the elder dinosaurs (all CR 30). If you're looking for ancient creatures to pose a serious threat consider giving them elemental affinities or druidic spellcasting to tie them to their nature flavor. Otherwise you'll need overwhelming numbers to make them a threat to tier 3, since they have access to flight and hold monster etc. Consider just having the dinosaurs run away when its made clear they cannot win, only to stalk the party waiting for their prey to weaken.

[Tanarii]

If you want to be depressed regarding this look at the average ability checks involving strength (most don't even allow athletics at face value) in published modules. They are regularly 10 or more higher than a relevant non strength check
That's a problem in general in published materials. Checks when a check shouldn't be needed and DCs that are far too high.

And of course if DMs don't know the automatic success with time rule, they might well call for an unneeded check even when there is time just because they see a DC printed.

[LudicSavant]

Yup. And IMO like any world record, it is the the kind of lift where the DM allows a Str check to exceed your normal lift capacity. Probably with a bonus to the check from the Bard cheering them on from the sidelines. :)

This doesn't address the issue. That world record is for deadlifting overhead, which is far more difficult (and dangerous) than merely lifting, pushing, or dragging. Look at strongman competitions where they're carrying things considerably heavier than that deadlift record in races, and moving faster than 5 feet while they're doing it!

But moreover, the Strength scaling for lift/push/drag is so low that giants would need a 'check to exceed' to push a boulder an itty bitty teensy weensy fraction of their size.

A roc shouldn't need a 'check to exceed' to carry off things as heavy as elephants and whales, that's just like, what rocs are supposed to do. And that's a 28 Strength, Gargantuan creature.

We're expected to be able to grapple and drag creatures one size category larger than ourselves. But when it comes to objects? The struggle is real. You basically have to hope the DM is nicer and more reasonable than the rules, or big strong things get shafted on the ability to manipulate objects at scale.

What's more, they actually nerfed many of the strength feats martials and beasts were routinely capable of from previous editions. Why?


Not to mention by default rules, that Str 20 character can move at full speed and jump 20ft.

This is just a demonstration of what Stoutstein said:


there is a stark break in relative types of strength within 5e.

*They are guidelines for exerting yourself beyond the standard limits that strength outlines but it's not well presented.*