Giving my players what they asked for

[Dachimotsu]

I'm starting up a new D&D 5e campaign. All of the PCs are level 1, and while none of my players are new, one of them hasn't played in 15 years. We recently held our session zero, where we set and agreed upon expectations. There are two relevant things we covered:

1 - Deadly monster encounters are optional. If you see one, you are free to try and take it on, and you'll get buttloads of XP and treasure for it. They liked the concept and understand that they are, in fact, optional.

2 - Status quo monster presence. Specifically requested by the entire group, the world will not conform to level-appropriate combats, and it will be possible to encounter creatures that are way out of their league. But as previously mentioned, the PCs have to choose to engage with them.

Seems perfectly reasonable, right? Well, I've snagged my first dilemma right with the very first dungeon. One of the PC's house is infested with vermin (fire beetles, giant spiders, etc.) and they've got to reasonably clear them out. Italicized because there's one bug that they're not really meant to fight, but it's not a threat if left alone. It was locked in the pantry when the infestation started. The PC who lives here knows that the pantry is locked for a damned good reason, and I'll explain that what's inside might be too tough for them to handle. BUT, the PC also knows there are some valuables that were lost in there.

The creature in question is, for the time being, a Sword Spider, which is CR 3, capable of instantly killing a level 1 PC in one turn. I figured, it's locked in the pantry, right? IF the PCs decide to try and kill it, they'll have an advantage, so really it's like the encounter difficulty is one step lower. Except, thing is, even a CR 2 creature (like a King Spider) would register as Deadly, and a CR 1 creature is just a... Medium encounter...

But am I really giving the players what they asked for by making it weaker? Should I let them get killed if they decide to try and fight it?

[Quietus]

Is there a reason you want this to be a full sized sword spider, specifically?

Also, is there a reason that the PC wouldn't know that it's a full sized sword spider? "It's a giant spider beast, big as a horse, with fangs like swords, and bladed legs half again as long. It cut Jim in half with a single swipe before we locked it in the pantry over there!", is a completely reasonable in-character way to describe something of that deadliness.

[Mastikator]

1) Don't make it weaker, that would only undermine the session zero agreements.

2) It is actually OK if a PC dies because of the choices they made. Do not fret about killing PCs in this scenario. Actually a near death or actual death will enforce the theme of the game that was agreed upon. If I were you I'd roll dice in the open.

It seems very early game, and the worst case scenario is a TPK, if that happens the group can reassess if they want this kind of game. Maybe they do and thought it was really fun?

[Dachimotsu]

Is there a reason you want this to be a full sized sword spider, specifically?

Also, is there a reason that the PC wouldn't know that it's a full sized sword spider? "It's a giant spider beast, big as a horse, with fangs like swords, and bladed legs half again as long. It cut Jim in half with a single swipe before we locked it in the pantry over there!", is a completely reasonable in-character way to describe something of that deadliness.

The PC does know what it is. He locked it in there.
And the reason it's a Sword Spider is that I'm actually stealing a dungeon from Neverwinter Nights:
https://www.gamebanshee.com/neverwinternights/nwnwalkthrough/silversailscomp.php

The players said they wanted the Sword Coast, their backstories matched up with Port Llast and Neverwinter Wood's lore, and NWN just happened to have premade dungeons for that town. One of the rooms has a Sword Spider, and there's a Sword Spider in 5e, so everything just kind worked out that way.

[Dachimotsu]

1) Don't make it weaker, that would only undermine the session zero agreements.

2) It is actually OK if a PC dies because of the choices they made. Do not fret about killing PCs in this scenario. Actually a near death or actual death will enforce the theme of the game that was agreed upon. If I were you I'd roll dice in the open.

It seems very early game, and the worst case scenario is a TPK, if that happens the group can reassess if they want this kind of game. Maybe they do and thought it was really fun?

I disagree with rolling dice in the open (though I swear to never ever fudge them), but I do agree with everything else you said. We can always re-establish expectations if the players decide they don't like what we agreed upon.

[Zhorn]

When including monsters more powerful than what the party should be reasonably expected to take on; have clear communicated win conditions that do not rely on 'get monster's hp to zero', and can be reasonably achieved within a short number of turns
all players reach a section of the map
monster in positioned in a section of the map
players must all be out of line of sight of the monster by the start of its turn
specified object is lit on fire
specified object is moved from point A to point B
etc

That I find is the biggest point that needs to be covered; that you have that win condition established, AND the players have that win condition communicated to them clearly enough to know it's not a hp race to zero.

As for overly deadly monsters; having an npc killed off first up is a good way to demonstrate "this thing will 1-hit you, so don't be foolish"
Could be
another (weaker) monster in the area
an npc that was temporarily placed with the party who isn't plot relevant
as a could of simple examples. Goblins and Kobolds are pretty much dungeon vermin. Sentient enough that you can have then as info-delivery systems for the party, simple creatures the party can overpower and bargain with to get as a temporary guide, and then disposed of in some comical fashion through monster attack or triggering a trap to telegraph danger to the party.

[Corran]

1 - Deadly monster encounters are optional. If you see one, you are free to try and take it on, and you'll get buttloads of XP and treasure for it. They liked the concept and understand that they are, in fact, optional.
...
But am I really giving the players what they asked for by making it weaker? Should I let them get killed if they decide to try and fight it?
It's difficult to account for everything (pc actions included) and put the optional label before it's too late.

To me (and I may be projecting), this sounds like your players want you to mix difficulty and to give them the option to choose. Having every encounter be a teeth grinder can be exhausting, having every encounter be a piece of cake can be boring. Variety is good, particularly when you can order it (eg in the form of choosing a quest) to the flavor your current mood wants.

If that's not enough, give them the option (at your discretion; though do ask for idea contributions if immersion is your real problem) to continue with their character in case of character death. I am all for consequences, but sometimes "do you want to continue with this character?" is sweet music to your ears.

[animorte]

That I find is the biggest point that needs to be covered; that you have that win condition established, AND the players have that win condition communicated to them clearly enough to know it's not a hp race to zero.
Look, somebody understood the assignment! :smallbiggrin:

As long as the party is somehow aware of the deadly threat and there is a potential to avoid/escape the threat (or alternative objectives), you're fine. That's precisely what session zero is for, a preface to expectations of the game.

[Sigreid]

I'm in favor of optional deadly fights, but putting one in the player's house seems a bit off to me.

[Dachimotsu]

I'm in favor of optional deadly fights, but putting one in the player's house seems a bit off to me.

The idea is that, if left alone, they can come back and kill it when the fight isn't deadly anymore.
Or wait until it starves to death.
But killing it now will instantly get them over halfway to level 2, plus bonus treasure. It's a risk.

[False God]

I'd leave the danger as is. Clearly communicate to the players the danger, since this is, after all, their first "dungeon" and it sounds like you'd rather play a game with players who have put effort into their characters, than run them through a nameless meat grinder. BUT, it's still the first session, players may not know just how dangerous this danger is, both in-character, and on a meta level, they may simply not understand.

I might add an additional barrier to taking on this monster: The PC has misplaced the key to the pantry. This shouldn't be a wantonly difficult task, but the goal is to buy a little more time for the players to think over taking on this challenge. If the players break down the door and charge in headlong, well, give them what they want. If they take the time to think things over, and still go down after finding the key, give them what they want. But give them the time to think it over.

One of the worst parts about early level D&D is that there's a LOT riding on the dice, and you never know if the dice will land in your favor. Since it sounds like you don't want to have a "LOL RANDOM!" sort of game, I'd just inject a little time for them to think things through.

[Dachimotsu]

I might add an additional barrier to taking on this monster: The PC has misplaced the key to the pantry. This shouldn't be a wantonly difficult task, but the goal is to buy a little more time for the players to think over taking on this challenge. If the players break down the door and charge in headlong, well, give them what they want. If they take the time to think things over, and still go down after finding the key, give them what they want. But give them the time to think it over.

Love it. I put the key in the bedroom of the PC who locked it in there. Will give them more incentive to explore more of the house.

[rel]

Run it straight. You can't have a game with difficult fights without, well, difficult fights.
Besides, the monster is trapped, and of animal intelligence. The PC's have so many options for taking it out beyond kicking the door down and engaging in sporting combat they shouldn't even lose any hit points.

[Arkhios]

Try this maybe? Don't ask me how, but I tuned it down. :smallcool:



Large Monstrosity, Unaligned
Armor Class 13 (natural armor)
Hit Points 27 (5d10)
Speed 30 ft., climb 30 ft.
STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA
13 (+1) 15 (+2) 10 (+0) 6 (-2) 10 (+0) 6 (-2)
Skills Stealth +6
Senses darkvision 60 ft., passive Perception 10
Languages —
Challenge 1 (200 XP) Proficiency Bonus +2
Ethereal Jaunt. As a bonus action, the spider can magically shift from the Material Plane to the Ethereal Plane, or vice versa.
Spider Climb. The spider can climb difficult surfaces, including upside down on ceilings, without needing to make an ability check.
Web Walker. The spider ignores movement restrictions caused by webbing.
Actions
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +3 to hit, reach 5 ft., one creature. Hit: 6 (1d10 + 1) piercing damage, and the target must make a DC 11 Constitution saving throw, taking 9 (2d8) poison damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. If the poison damage reduces the target to 0 hit points, the target is stable but poisoned for 1 hour, even after regaining hit points, and is paralyzed while poisoned in this way.

It's certainly dangerous but not necessarily deadly. Constitution Saving Throw DC 11 is reasonably low and manageable. Especially if the group's front line character is proficient with Constitution saves and/or has relatively high Constitution score (16+), and thus is more likely to save against it. As a bonus, even if the target were to drop to 0 hit points from poison, the target is immediately stablized, although poisoned and paralyzed. But at least not dead!

After all, it's a spider. They prefer their food alive! :smalltongue:

[Unoriginal]

I'm starting up a new D&D 5e campaign. All of the PCs are level 1, and while none of my players are new, one of them hasn't played in 15 years. We recently held our session zero, where we set and agreed upon expectations. There are two relevant things we covered:

1 - Deadly monster encounters are optional. If you see one, you are free to try and take it on, and you'll get buttloads of XP and treasure for it. They liked the concept and understand that they are, in fact, optional.

2 - Status quo monster presence. Specifically requested by the entire group, the world will not conform to level-appropriate combats, and it will be possible to encounter creatures that are way out of their league. But as previously mentioned, the PCs have to choose to engage with them.

Seems perfectly reasonable, right? Well, I've snagged my first dilemma right with the very first dungeon. One of the PC's house is infested with vermin (fire beetles, giant spiders, etc.) and they've got to reasonably clear them out. Italicized because there's one bug that they're not really meant to fight, but it's not a threat if left alone. It was locked in the pantry when the infestation started. The PC who lives here knows that the pantry is locked for a damned good reason, and I'll explain that what's inside might be too tough for them to handle. BUT, the PC also knows there are some valuables that were lost in there.

The creature in question is, for the time being, a Sword Spider, which is CR 3, capable of instantly killing a level 1 PC in one turn. I figured, it's locked in the pantry, right? IF the PCs decide to try and kill it, they'll have an advantage, so really it's like the encounter difficulty is one step lower. Except, thing is, even a CR 2 creature (like a King Spider) would register as Deadly, and a CR 1 creature is just a... Medium encounter...

But am I really giving the players what they asked for by making it weaker? Should I let them get killed if they decide to try and fight it?

Remember, most monsters are not automatons with "kill the PCs" as their only programming.

A Sword Spider may be a dangerous opponent for the group, but if it gets attacked in its home by 4+ foes who can hurt it significantly and who keep attacking despite the damage it inflicts on them, it's likely to flee out of fear and desire to survive.

All in all, I say to run the monster as it is, without making it weaker. But also run the monster as it is, ie a living being who wishes to remain so.

Also remember that since the PCs know what monster the Sword Spider is, they can prepare an ambush, traps, etc. Perhaps even baiting the Spider into a deadly situation while they themselves won't likely be hurt.

[KorvinStarmast]

1) Don't make it weaker, that would only undermine the session zero agreements.
2) It is actually OK if a PC dies because of the chices they made. Do not fret about killing PCs in this scenario. Actually a near death or actual death will enforce the theme of the game that was agreed upon. If I were you I'd roll dice in the open.

It seems very early game, and the worst case scenario is a TPK, if that happens the group can reassess if they want this kind of game. Maybe they do and thought it was really fun?
And at level 1, if a PC dies there is the option to make a new one ... :smallsmile: