Pillums?

[Fero]

Does anyone know of any weapons (melee or ranged) that is designed to stick into an opponents armor or shield to slow or hinder them? I know that the Howler's quills can do this but am not aware of any weapons that do.

[MinimanMidget]

Frostburn has rules for harpoons and a melee version called a ritiik.

[Maat Mons]

Pathfinder has something. (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/weapon-descriptions/pilum/)

[Saintheart]

Pilum (Dragon 331): 1d8, x3 multiplier. Thrown weapon. ROMA VICTORIA, sorry, got a little carried away there … anyway, it has a range increment of 20 feet as well as Reach. You can make sunder attempts on enemy shields with it at range, and if the pilum does more damage than the shield’s hardness, the pilum sticks in the shield, causing a -2 to attack rolls, AC and Reflex saves to the enemy unless they drop the shield!

[Frostthehero]

Pilum (Dragon 331): 1d8, x3 multiplier. Thrown weapon. ROMA VICTORIA, sorry, got a little carried away there … anyway, it has a range increment of 20 feet as well as Reach. You can make sunder attempts on enemy shields with it at range, and if the pilum does more damage than the shield’s hardness, the pilum sticks in the shield, causing a -2 to attack rolls, AC and Reflex saves to the enemy unless they drop the shield!

Wow - this is pretty spot on. I tend to be iffy about allowing dragon into my games, but this seems like a very reasonable addition.

[Fero]

Thank you all!

[AnonJr]

Pilum (Dragon 331): 1d8, x3 multiplier. Thrown weapon. ROMA VICTORIA, sorry, got a little carried away there … anyway, it has a range increment of 20 feet as well as Reach. You can make sunder attempts on enemy shields with it at range, and if the pilum does more damage than the shield’s hardness, the pilum sticks in the shield, causing a -2 to attack rolls, AC and Reflex saves to the enemy unless they drop the shield!

I played a Warforged Duskblade named Pilum, because he opened every combat encounter with hurling a pilum at some fools before drawing his maul.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Saintheart
Pilum (Dragon 331)

Someone really did their research on this one. It’s perfect as written.


Originally Posted by Maat Mons
*Pathfinder pilum*

The Pathfinder version is unfortunately not so great. Pilums weren’t designed to break off—that misses the point entirely, since the thin neck of the pilum is intended to bend and hang at an awkward angle.

And it’ll take more than a standard action to pull out the embedded head of the pilum, so dropping the shield is the more likely response.

[Fero]

I played a Warforged Duskblade named Pilum, because he opened every combat encounter with hurling a pilum at some fools before drawing his maul.

Was his full name Pilum Maul?

[AnonJr]

Was his full name Pilum Maul?

Sadly, I didn't think of that at the time... :smalltongue:

[Maat Mons]

From a mechanical standpoint, I think it’s the Dragon magazine version that isn’t very good. In order to use the special benefit of the Drag mag pilum, you have to choose to make a sunder attempt, which means giving up any chance of dealing damage with the attack.

An average member of a unit of massed troops, at least in my settings, is a 1st-level human Warrior, with 6 HP. That means if a pilum deals 7 points of damage, that enemy is out of the fight. When using the sundering option, the pilum needs to deal 9 points of damage (1 more than the hardness of wood), and only hinders the enemy. If it’s a choice between a chance of eliminating an enemy and a worse chance of penalizing the same enemy, it’s not really any choice at all. This means Drag mag pilums make absolutely no sense for, say, the Roman legion, which seems terrible for a D&D version of a weapon the Romans were famous for using.

Really, how a pilum should work is that you throw it, and it has a chance to deal damage, because a big spear hurtling at you should have a chance of dealing damage, and even if it doesn’t deal damage, it still has a chance of sticking in the enemy’s shield. Really, for as long as the spikey thing on the front is, it should have a chance of sticking in the shield and still dealing damage. But anyway, sticking in the shield should be your consolation prize for not killing the enemy. You shouldn’t have to give up your chance at killing the enemy to get a chance at sticking the thing in their shield.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Maat Mons
You shouldn’t have to give up your chance at killing the enemy to get a chance at sticking the thing in their shield.

Remember that armies are trained to work together in groups, rather than solely as single combatants. If you can get one of the enemy to drop his shield, that makes it easier for your buddy to kill him.

Typically Roman soldiers in a maniple carried two pila—the first to throw in a massed opening volley, intended to be caught on the enemy’s shields and weigh them down; the second to be thrown at closer range when those shields were either discarded or in disarray. That one-two combination was hella effective, and it didn’t matter whose pilum hit which shield.

[Maat Mons]

Under D&D rules, the fact that the soldiers are fighting in a group doesn’t actually do anything to help the pilum out. The optimal strategy for a group of soldiers throwing pilums at a group of 1st-level Warriors is for everyone to just deal damage. The only way that the optimal group strategy differs from the optimal individual strategy is for synergy to exist. Choosing to sacrifice damage dealt to a foe in favor of hindering that foe only ever has synergy when you’ve left the level range where you’re likely to one-hit-kill your target.

And the fact that pilums were so effective in real life is why it’s so frustrating that the Dragon magazine version of the pilum is so bad for low-level characters.

[Chronos]

In real life, an organized group of soldiers with shields was nigh-impossible to damage directly from a distance, and using pila to rid them of their shields was a countermeasure to that. The Dragon Magazine version seems underwhelming only because D&D shields are much less effective than that, probably mostly because D&D is built primarily for individual combatants, not phalanxes.

[Gorthawar]

From a mechanical standpoint, I think it’s the Dragon magazine version that isn’t very good. In order to use the special benefit of the Drag mag pilum, you have to choose to make a sunder attempt, which means giving up any chance of dealing damage with the attack.

An average member of a unit of massed troops, at least in my settings, is a 1st-level human Warrior, with 6 HP. That means if a pilum deals 7 points of damage, that enemy is out of the fight. When using the sundering option, the pilum needs to deal 9 points of damage (1 more than the hardness of wood), and only hinders the enemy. If it’s a choice between a chance of eliminating an enemy and a worse chance of penalizing the same enemy, it’s not really any choice at all. This means Drag mag pilums make absolutely no sense for, say, the Roman legion, which seems terrible for a D&D version of a weapon the Romans were famous for using.

Really, how a pilum should work is that you throw it, and it has a chance to deal damage, because a big spear hurtling at you should have a chance of dealing damage, and even if it doesn’t deal damage, it still has a chance of sticking in the enemy’s shield. Really, for as long as the spikey thing on the front is, it should have a chance of sticking in the shield and still dealing damage. But anyway, sticking in the shield should be your consolation prize for not killing the enemy. You shouldn’t have to give up your chance at killing the enemy to get a chance at sticking the thing in their shield.

Assuming average stats of 10 a lvl 1 human warrior with a scale mail and heavy shield has 16 AC and an attack bonus of +1. That puts the chance of hitting another warrior with the same stats at 30% as opposed to a 50% chance to win the opposed roll on a sunder attempt. If the defender is part of a shield wall with phalanx fighting the AC goes up to 19 with one feat and the chance to hit comes down to 15% opposed to 50%. I'd say that makes the use of a pilum a decent strategy in low level combat. Better stats skew this a little of course.

[Maat Mons]

With stats of 10, it's not possible to successfully use the Dragon magazine version of the pilum. First, you need to succeed on the opposed attack roll. Then, you need to roll damage that exceeds the shield's hardness. Wooden shields have hardness 8, so you need to roll 9 or more. With stats of 10, you're rolling 1d8+0 for damage. You can't get a result of 9 or more on 1d8+0.

[Chronos]

Ah, that's a good point, that seriously limits the usefulness of the weapon. Even with a respectable +3 to damage, you'd only have a 37.5% chance of dealing enough damage to stick it (once you succeed on the opposed attack roll to sunder).

[sandmote]

You shouldn’t have to give up your chance at killing the enemy to get a chance at sticking the thing in their shield.
Related more to this than needing to beat the shield's hardness, would the d&d weapon be more reflective of the historical pilum if it applies its effect when the attack roll misses by less than the target's shield bonus? Or maybe if you miss but would have hit on a touch attack with the same roll.

Point being, the effect is still weaker than killing the target, but you only get the effect when you missed (without guaranteeing you get either effect). Please note the relative effectiveness might reverse itself against higher CR targets where one weapon attack is unlikely to kill anything, but I'm more interesting in applying the following bit at the table:
even if it doesn’t deal damage, it still has a chance of sticking in the enemy’s shield. Really, for as long as the spikey thing on the front is, it should have a chance of sticking in the shield and still dealing damage. But anyway, sticking in the shield should be your consolation prize for not killing the enemy.

[spectralphoenix]

There should probably be some sort of opposed attack roll or reflex save or something. I think it runs counter to the design that a first level warrior could chuck one at a 20th level fighter and mess up his shield without beating some kind of defense.

Past that, I think the PF version is actually pretty solid. You can make your attacks and mess up your opponents shield for free. And if he takes an action fixing his shield, he lost a full round of attacks while taking full damage from your attacks. Frankly, anything better than that should require a feat or something.