Sentinel feat, Sneak Attack, Mirror Image and Compelled Duel —Combo?

[Talionis]

Compelled Duel can be picked up with the Fey Touched feat by any caster. From what I can tell Compelled Duel should give disadvantage to hit the Mirror Images. (This should work with any soft taunt abilities like Artificer Thunder Gauntlets, Cavalier, or Ancestral Barbarian). That alone is pretty cool because that should help the Mirror Images survive a long time. Sentinel feat should trigger an opportunity attack when an enemy goes after a Mirror Image. This should increase your chances to get Sneak Attack on more than just your turn. Does this work?

[Psyren]

Well... as written Compelled Duel gives disadvantage to attack creatures other than you, so your DM will need to rule that the illusory duplicates from Mirror Image count as creatures. Personally I think there's likely to be better things you could be concentrating on, but assuming you get a favorable ruling on the former item this should be fine.

[follacchioso]

I don't think Compelled Duel would give disadvantage to hitting the Mirror Images. First of all the Mirror Images are not creatures, and Compelled Duel explicitly mentions that the disadvantage applies only to creatures. Moreover, the opponent is not really trying to hit the Mirror Images - they are targeting you, not the illusions.

[Talionis]

I don't think Compelled Duel would give disadvantage to hitting the Mirror Images. First of all the Mirror Images are not creatures, and Compelled Duel explicitly mentions that the disadvantage applies only to creatures. Moreover, the opponent is not really trying to hit the Mirror Images - they are targeting you, not the illusions.

“Three illusory duplicates of yourself appear in your space. Until the spell ends, the duplicates move with you and mimic your actions, shifting position so it's impossible to track which image is real. You can use your action to dismiss the illusory duplicates.
Each time a creature targets you with an attack during the spell's duration, roll a d20 to determine whether the attack instead TARGETS one of your duplicates.
If you have three duplicates, you must roll a 6 or higher to change the attack's target to a duplicate. With two duplicates, you must roll an 8 or higher. With one duplicate, you must roll an 11 or higher.
A duplicate's AC equals 10 + your Dexterity modifier. If an attack hits a duplicate, the duplicate is destroyed. A duplicate can be destroyed only by an attack that hits it. It ignores all other damage and effects. The spell ends when all three duplicates are destroyed.
A creature is unaffected by this spell if it can't see, if it relies on senses other than sight, such as blindsight, or if it can perceive illusions as false, as with truesight.” Emphasis added.

Duplicates are targeted so that isn’t a problem. The duplicates have AC, so I think there is an argument that they are creatures. Many creatures are intangible or have only one hit point. I think the duplicates are designed to function as creatures. Compelled Duel is a magical ability that confers the disadvantage. I’m not sure it works by RAW, but I’m also not sure it doesn’t work by RAW.

[Psyren]

I think the duplicates are designed to function as creatures.

As I mentioned, the person you'll need to convince of this reading is your DM; nobody else's opinion matters here.

[Slipjig]

Oh, interesting combo. I like it! Unfortunately, I see a couple of problems with it under RAW.

I would rule that the enemy doesn't have disadvantage, because it *is* attacking you. It's attack may end up hitting a different target because of your spell, but the enemy is complying with the compulsion to attack the caster.

If the illusions count as creatures, that's also a problem for Compelled Duel: since they "mirror the actions of the caster", if the caster takes any offensive action against the target, so will the duplicates. And another creature taking an offensive action against the target automatically ends the Compelled Duel (and if they aren't creatures, the question is moot).

I might compromise by letting the combination work, but giving the target advantage on the saving throw to resist the Compelled Duel, since the caster appears to be bringing their whole stunt team to the skateboard fight, which clearly violates the intent of the spell, if not the RAW.

But as other people have said, the only opinion that matters is your DM's.

[Bobthewizard]

“Three illusory duplicates of yourself appear in your space. Until the spell ends, the duplicates move with you and mimic your actions, shifting position so it's impossible to track which image is real. You can use your action to dismiss the illusory duplicates.
Each time a creature targets you with an attack during the spell's duration, roll a d20 to determine whether the attack instead TARGETS one of your duplicates.
If you have three duplicates, you must roll a 6 or higher to change the attack's target to a duplicate. With two duplicates, you must roll an 8 or higher. With one duplicate, you must roll an 11 or higher.
A duplicate's AC equals 10 + your Dexterity modifier. If an attack hits a duplicate, the duplicate is destroyed. A duplicate can be destroyed only by an attack that hits it. It ignores all other damage and effects. The spell ends when all three duplicates are destroyed.
A creature is unaffected by this spell if it can't see, if it relies on senses other than sight, such as blindsight, or if it can perceive illusions as false, as with truesight.” Emphasis added.

Duplicates are targeted so that isn’t a problem. The duplicates have AC, so I think there is an argument that they are creatures. Many creatures are intangible or have only one hit point. I think the duplicates are designed to function as creatures. Compelled Duel is a magical ability that confers the disadvantage. I’m not sure it works by RAW, but I’m also not sure it doesn’t work by RAW.

Compelled duel only gives disadvantage if they attack another creature, not another target. The mirror images are definitely not creatures even if they can be targets.

"You attempt to compel a creature into a duel. One creature that you can see within range must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, the creature is drawn to you, compelled by your divine demand. For the duration, it has disadvantage on attack rolls against creatures other than you, and must make a Wisdom saving throw each time it attempts to move to a space that is more than 30 feet away from you; if it succeeds on this saving throw, this spell doesn’t restrict the target’s movement for that turn.

The spell ends if you attack any other creature, if you cast a spell that targets a hostile creature other than the target, if a creature friendly to you damages the target or casts a harmful spell on it, or if you end your turn more than 30 feet away from the target."

[Quietus]

Duplicates are targeted so that isn’t a problem. The duplicates have AC, so I think there is an argument that they are creatures. Many creatures are intangible or have only one hit point. I think the duplicates are designed to function as creatures. Compelled Duel is a magical ability that confers the disadvantage. I’m not sure it works by RAW, but I’m also not sure it doesn’t work by RAW.

Having an AC doesn't make a thing a creature. Wall of Stone also has AC, and even hit points! It is not a creature.

[Talionis]

I’m not arguing against any of you because I recognize that it’s a new combination as far as I can tell. I am just trying to advocate for it and why it might work. Mirror Image transfers the target of the spell to a different target. The Mirror Image duplicates can’t finish any hostile action and can do any actual harm, though I agree if they are mirroring your actions they will look dangerous, but I’m not sure at what point they break the protection from compelled duel. If the door is behind you and I am running at you but to get out the door I think even if you are running with a weapon you wouldn’t break compelled duel protection. The Mirror Images are incapable of doing damage. So on this point, I think it would work.

I am more concerned with whether the Mirror Image duplicates are creatures. I don’t think the Mirror Image spell is very clear on whether the duplicates count as creatures or not. I also don’t know if there is a definition of creature to refer to for elements of being a creature. The duplicates do have AC, but they poof if hit. The duplicates also seem to survive anything but a direct attack on them. Sometimes the duplicates seem to have substance and sometimes the duplicates do not. Mirror Image is predicated on the thought that the enemy cannot tell that the duplicates are not creatures and not you. But I see how that stretches in both ways.

On the whole it seems like a resource intensive combination like using Extend Spell with Booming Blade to be able to use Booming Blade with a reach weapon. The benefits may not even outweigh the cost. But it seems to me to be a possible interpretation of how these spells and feats would interact. I think it’s pretty cool and an interesting thought experiment.

[Mastikator]

Illusions aren't creatures. Therefore mirror image illusions aren't creatures either. It's a very clear cut matter.

[Psyren]

On the whole it seems like a resource intensive combination like using Extend Spell with Booming Blade to be able to use Booming Blade with a reach weapon.

These two don't work together, are you thinking of a different metamagic?

[JNAProductions]

These two don't work together, are you thinking of a different metamagic?

Distant, probably?

Though that doesn’t work anymore.

[KorvinStarmast]

Having an AC doesn't make a thing a creature. Wall of Stone also has AC, and even hit points! It is not a creature. I was gonna make that point.

Illusions aren't creatures. Therefore mirror image illusions aren't creatures either. It's a very clear cut matter. But what if they aren't using an edged weapons? :smallbiggrin:

For the OP: we all fall prey to the lure of overthinking from time to time. This is one such, and as a DM I'd simply shake my head and move on.

[JackPhoenix]

I’m not arguing against any of you because I recognize that it’s a new combination as far as I can tell.

It's not. It's been discovered and rejected years ago, on the same ground mentioned in this thread: Mirror Images aren't creatures. Sentinel works, though: The third point requires the enemy to attack a target, no matter what the target is, not necessarily a creature.


Illusions aren't creatures. Therefore mirror image illusions aren't creatures either. It's a very clear cut matter.

*Simulacrum rears its ugly head.*

[Psyren]

It's not. It's been discovered and rejected years ago, on the same ground mentioned in this thread: Mirror Images aren't creatures. Sentinel works, though: The third point requires the enemy to attack a target, no matter what the target is, not necessarily a creature.



*Simulacrum rears its ugly head.*

Simulacrum actually proves the point. It overtly states "The duplicate is a creature" whereas mirror image does not.

[stoutstien]

I mean even if this worked it would be kinda lackluster. After the third "if" with any tactics you'd hope to deploy regularly you'd hope for more than a soft taunt for 2 spell slots and a feat for a a single target.

Round 1. Cast MI
Round 2. Cast compel duel
Round 3. Hope they don't have save based offensive features, forced movement, or an ally hit them.

Encounter done.

[Quietus]

I am more concerned with whether the Mirror Image duplicates are creatures. I don’t think the Mirror Image spell is very clear on whether the duplicates count as creatures or not. I also don’t know if there is a definition of creature to refer to for elements of being a creature. The duplicates do have AC, but they poof if hit. The duplicates also seem to survive anything but a direct attack on them. Sometimes the duplicates seem to have substance and sometimes the duplicates do not. Mirror Image is predicated on the thought that the enemy cannot tell that the duplicates are not creatures and not you. But I see how that stretches in both ways.

The duplicates are not creatures. They're illusions of creatures. You wouldn't cast Silent Image to make a copy of yourself and argue that's a creature; Mirror Images are no different, aside from the fact that they can absorb attacks and disappear when hit. Nowhere in the spell does it suggest that they have substance; they simply appear and move around, they use your dexterity to dodge, and if they fail to dodge, they get popped.

[Talionis]

The definition of Simulacrum spell makes “duplicates” and defines the duplicates as creatures. So there is precedent for a duplicate to be a creature. The duplicates look like creatures and move like creatures. In your “wall example” the walls do not move. Mirror Image says that the images magically are indistinguishable from the caster to the point that it’s totally random with no check to target a duplicate. What element of being a creature are the duplicates missing?

Simulacrum: “ You shape an illusory duplicate of one beast or humanoid that is within range for the entire casting time of the spell. The duplicate is a CREATURE, partially real and formed from ice or snow, and it can take actions and otherwise be affected as a normal creature. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has half the creature's hit point maximum and is formed without any equipment. Otherwise, the illusion uses all the statistics of the creature it duplicates, except that it is a construct.
The simulacrum is friendly to you and creatures you designate. It obeys your spoken commands, moving and acting in accordance with your wishes and acting on your turn in combat. The simulacrum lacks the ability to learn or become more powerful, so it never increases its level or other abilities, nor can it regain expended spell slots.
If the simulacrum is damaged, you can repair it in an alchemical laboratory, using rare herbs and minerals worth 100 gp per hit point it regains. The simulacrum lasts until it drops to 0 hit points, at which point it reverts to snow and melts instantly.
If you cast this spell again, any currently active duplicates you created with this spell are instantly destroyed.”

[Talionis]

I mean even if this worked it would be kinda lackluster. After the third "if" with any tactics you'd hope to deploy regularly you'd hope for more than a soft taunt for 2 spell slots and a feat for a a single target.

Round 1. Cast MI
Round 2. Cast compel duel
Round 3. Hope they don't have save based offensive features, forced movement, or an ally hit them.

Encounter done.

This is a great point. It’s one of the reasons I think it could work because the investment is high for speculative gain. It’s not like the outcome is ridiculously broken.

The action investment is not quite as bad as it looks on paper. A Sorcerer 3/Rogue X can Quicken Green Flame Blade and cast Mirror Image on turn 1. Compelled Duel is a bonus action to cast, so you can still use your normal action to cast Green Flame Blade again. It’s only somewhat powerful to enable potential off turn sneak attacks, but there are better ways to do that. Mirror Image will last longer and be a better defense, but you’ve potentially cast two spells to accomplish this and need to do it over at least two separate turns. The disadvantage from Compelled Diel is only against one creature and that creature gets a saving throw. It’s fun and interesting and a good combo. But it’s far from broken.

[stoutstien]

This is a great point. It’s one of the reasons I think it could work because the investment is high for speculative gain. It’s not like the outcome is ridiculously broken.

The action investment is not quite as bad as it looks on paper. A Sorcerer 3/Rogue X can Quicken Green Flame Blade and cast Mirror Image on turn 1. Compelled Duel is a bonus action to cast, so you can still use your normal action to cast Green Flame Blade again. It’s only somewhat powerful to enable potential off turn sneak attacks, but there are better ways to do that. Mirror Image will last longer and be a better defense, but you’ve potentially cast two spells to accomplish this and need to do it over at least two separate turns. The disadvantage from Compelled Diel is only against one creature and that creature gets a saving throw. It’s fun and interesting and a good combo. But it’s far from broken.

If you green flame a second target the compelled duel ends anyways so you are taking about burning even more resources with quicken and still only get *maybe* 1 or 2 effected actions drom compelled duel.

Can you present a encounter where this would work because I can't think of one. For this supposed rouge/sorcerer why not dodge+quicken blade cantrip two rounds in a row? Or better disengage+BB which is basically at-will.

If you want to trigger reaction based SA you really need to look at the rest of the party to support it. They should be all for it since it's one of the hardest hitting OAs. You can use haste but it's high risk/moderate reward.

[Mastikator]

This is a great point. It’s one of the reasons I think it could work because the investment is high for speculative gain. It’s not like the outcome is ridiculously broken.

The action investment is not quite as bad as it looks on paper. A Sorcerer 3/Rogue X can Quicken Green Flame Blade and cast Mirror Image on turn 1. Compelled Duel is a bonus action to cast, so you can still use your normal action to cast Green Flame Blade again. It’s only somewhat powerful to enable potential off turn sneak attacks, but there are better ways to do that. Mirror Image will last longer and be a better defense, but you’ve potentially cast two spells to accomplish this and need to do it over at least two separate turns. The disadvantage from Compelled Diel is only against one creature and that creature gets a saving throw. It’s fun and interesting and a good combo. But it’s far from broken.

Better off using Mind Sliver and then Compelled Duel to apply the -1d4 to the target's save for compelled duel. You can also accomplish this combo at level 3 with just sorcerer, but it's still a 2 round combo. The only thing you'll probably never get past a DM is the whole "they have disadvantage because they're targeting a mirror image" part. Other than that it's a good plan to tank an enemy since they'll waste a few attacks on your mirrors. Personally I'd grab mage armor and shield to sustain the mirrors for a round or two (enough to win the battle).

[Chronos]

Honestly, Compelled Duel has so many limitations that it's hard to imagine any combination involving it being worthwhile. It puts more restrictions on both your actions and on the actions of your allies than it does on the target.

[Quietus]

The definition of Simulacrum spell makes “duplicates” and defines the duplicates as creatures. So there is precedent for a duplicate to be a creature. The duplicates look like creatures and move like creatures. In your “wall example” the walls do not move. Mirror Image says that the images magically are indistinguishable from the caster to the point that it’s totally random with no check to target a duplicate. What element of being a creature are the duplicates missing?

Simulacrum: “ You shape an illusory duplicate of one beast or humanoid that is within range for the entire casting time of the spell. The duplicate is a CREATURE, partially real and formed from ice or snow, and it can take actions and otherwise be affected as a normal creature. It appears to be the same as the original, but it has half the creature's hit point maximum and is formed without any equipment. Otherwise, the illusion uses all the statistics of the creature it duplicates, except that it is a construct.
The simulacrum is friendly to you and creatures you designate. It obeys your spoken commands, moving and acting in accordance with your wishes and acting on your turn in combat. The simulacrum lacks the ability to learn or become more powerful, so it never increases its level or other abilities, nor can it regain expended spell slots.
If the simulacrum is damaged, you can repair it in an alchemical laboratory, using rare herbs and minerals worth 100 gp per hit point it regains. The simulacrum lasts until it drops to 0 hit points, at which point it reverts to snow and melts instantly.
If you cast this spell again, any currently active duplicates you created with this spell are instantly destroyed.”

You are intentionally stretching to make your bad combo work. Simulacrum says it's a creature; Mirror Image does not. That means that Mirror Image is not a creature, as it doesn't explicitly state that it is or reference Simulacrum or other spells that do.

I've said my piece. You've made your decision, clearly, and I'm no longer interested in debating with someone who comes asking if something will work and refuses to acknowledge when the answer is quite clearly, no.

[stoutstien]

Honestly, Compelled Duel has so many limitations that it's hard to imagine any combination involving it being worthwhile. It puts more restrictions on both your actions and on the actions of your allies than it does on the target.

Now that's a challenge.

[KorvinStarmast]

Mirror Image will last longer and be a better defense, but you’ve potentially cast two spells to accomplish this and need to do it over at least two separate turns. Beyond your being wrong about creature (simulacrum actually says it in the spell description while mirror image does not) your PC is expending two spell slots in two rounds for a dubious, hoped for benefit.
I guess if your white room analysis is for a 5 minute adventure day then you can throw away spell slots without a care in the world.
What you propose is very inefficient/wasteful (besides not actually working with the spells as presented), and it's bad resource management.

As to compelled duel: I used it as a paladin once. It's a bit situational in terms of when it's a good use of a spell slot.
After that one time I usually found better uses for that spell slot.

@stoutstien: I'd like to see what you come up with. :smallsmile:

[stoutstien]

@stoutstien: I'd like to see what you come up with. :smallsmile:

Best I got is is to abuse the fact it has similar wording to pre errata sanctuary where if you use non attack/non spell options you can freely damage others without breaking it.

So picking it up as an artillerist artificer via fey touched wouldn't be great but would give you an interesting took when you have something you can't web or otherwise keep pinned. Your defense is high enough to eat most attacks and you can use your flamethrower or THP generator freely. Later on you can fly and keep them on a shorter leash.

If anyone else in the party has a blender spell you could deal some ok damage if you can stick the first save.

[Dr.Samurai]

I think this thread is being overly literal for no good reason.

Mirror Images for sure are not creatures.

I don't think that really matters here though.

I think a DM is well within reason to say that Sentinel's features work when an enemy is targeting your Mirror Image, even though it doesn't abide by the rules. Because the intent is that your presence and actions harry a foe to make it harder to hit someone other than you, and you punish them for it.

That exists whether the enemy is attacking a real person or an illusion of a person. The letter of the rules doesn't allow it, but we all understand what the mechanics are trying to represent.

The reason I think this might not work is because Sentinel doesn't work if the other target has Sentinel. And while the illusions are not creatures and don't have feats, presumably they are acting as you are acting to such a degree that no one can tell you apart. So they would be harrying the enemy just as much as you are, and I think a DM could say "Yeah, Sentinel doesn't trigger because your mirror images are doing the same thing you are doing."

[JackPhoenix]

Note: I mentioned Simulacrum as one of the two (the other being Phantom Steed) exceptions to the claim that illusions aren't creatures, not as an evidence that MI duplicates are.


I think this thread is being overly literal for no good reason.

Mirror Images for sure are not creatures.

I don't think that really matters here though.

I think a DM is well within reason to say that Sentinel's features work when an enemy is targeting your Mirror Image, even though it doesn't abide by the rules. Because the intent is that your presence and actions harry a foe to make it harder to hit someone other than you, and you punish them for it.

That exists whether the enemy is attacking a real person or an illusion of a person. The letter of the rules doesn't allow it, but we all understand what the mechanics are trying to represent.

The reason I think this might not work is because Sentinel doesn't work if the other target has Sentinel. And while the illusions are not creatures and don't have feats, presumably they are acting as you are acting to such a degree that no one can tell you apart. So they would be harrying the enemy just as much as you are, and I think a DM could say "Yeah, Sentinel doesn't trigger because your mirror images are doing the same thing you are doing."

Except the enemy isn't targetting your Mirror Image. He's targetting *you*, it's just there's multiple overlapping "you" sharing the same space, moving so it's impossible to tell which one is real, and potentially causing the attack to hit a image instead of the intended target.

[Slipjig]

Honestly, Compelled Duel has so many limitations that it's hard to imagine any combination involving it being worthwhile. It puts more restrictions on both your actions and on the actions of your allies than it does on the target.

It's designed to do exactly one thing: let the Paladin tank the biggest threat (or prevent their escape) while the rest of the party cleans up the mooks. If the DM tends to play smart and have bad guy bruisers go after the squishies, it's not terrible. But since these days the casters' AC is probably at least as high as the Paladin's, it's not so great.

And I stand by my initial assessment that the enemy is attacking you, so it doesn't suffer disadvantage even if your spell diverts the attack to one of the illusions (who are definitely not creatures).

[Psyren]

The definition of Simulacrum spell makes “duplicates” and defines the duplicates as creatures. So there is precedent for a duplicate to be a creature.

There is precedent if the spell says the illusory duplicate is a creature. The fact that it does so for Simulacrum and not Mirror Image is a point against Mirror Image, not in favor.

[KorvinStarmast]

Except the enemy isn't targeting your Mirror Image. He's targeting *you*, it's just there's multiple overlapping "you" sharing the same space, moving so it's impossible to tell which one is real, and potentially causing the attack to hit a image instead of the intended target. IF the OP had understood that, we'd not have this thread.

Because the intent is that your presence and actions harry a foe to make it harder to hit someone other than you, and you punish them for it.
Because they are attacking you (the MI caster) but are occasionally fooled by the mirror image.

It's designed to do exactly one thing: let the Paladin tank the biggest threat (or prevent their escape) while the rest of the party cleans up the mooks. If the DM tends to play smart and have bad guy bruisers go after the squishies, it's not terrible. But since these days the casters' AC is probably at least as high as the Paladin's, it's not so great.

And I stand by my initial assessment that the enemy is attacking you, so it doesn't suffer disadvantage even if your spell diverts the attack to one of the illusions (who are definitely not creatures). Yeah.

There is precedent if the spell says the illusory duplicate is a creature. The fact that it does so for Simulacrum and not Mirror Image is a point against Mirror Image, not in favor. No matter how many of us bring this point up, it seems not to register.

[Dr.Samurai]

I don't think the spell is saying "you create a bunch of illusions that are running interference for enemy attacks". If that was the case, it wouldn't matter that they looked like you or not. It could be anything moving around in your space and leaping in the way of enemy attacks.

What is really happening is that there are four version of the same PC in the space, three of which are illusions and one which is real. The enemy can't tell the difference, so might attack an illusion instead of you.

Yes, by the rules of the game, the enemy is "targeting you". But by the narrative, that's not what is happening. The enemy might be targeting an illusion of you instead.

That's why I'm saying everyone is reading the rules too strictly here.

[Psyren]

I don't think the spell is saying "you create a bunch of illusions that are running interference for enemy attacks". If that was the case, it wouldn't matter that they looked like you or not. It could be anything moving around in your space and leaping in the way of enemy attacks.

What is really happening is that there are four version of the same PC in the space, three of which are illusions and one which is real. The enemy can't tell the difference, so might attack an illusion instead of you.

Yes, by the rules of the game, the enemy is "targeting you". But by the narrative, that's not what is happening. The enemy might be targeting an illusion of you instead.

That's why I'm saying everyone is reading the rules too strictly here.

I agree with your narrative reading, but that doesn't actually help the OP's case. The narrative point of Compelled Duel is that the enemy is enchanted to make them focus on you, so they get worse at directing their attacks at anyone else. If they can't distinguish between the actual you and your mirror duplicates, to the point that they are convinced they're attacking you even when they're swinging at an image, then nothing in Compelled Duel regarding the disadvantage should actually apply.

TL;DR - both by RAW and by the narrative of how the spells work, CD provides no protection to your illusory selves.

[Dr.Samurai]

Yeah, I think that makes sense too.

[Corran]

Yes, by the rules of the game, the enemy is "targeting you". But by the narrative, that's not what is happening. The enemy might be targeting an illusion of you instead.
I didn't go into the trouble of checking the exact wording, but because I do spot this problem in narration that you mention (assuming we go with this specific representation of mirror image), is there something not allowing us to consider that the spell effect retroactively determines who the attacker chose to attack?

[Chronos]

What if you cast Compelled Duel, and then the party is hidden behind a wall for a moment, and then the sorcerer uses Seeming to make you look like the sorcerer and the sorcerer look like you? When you come back out, will the enemy attack the person who looks like the paladin, or will they have a magical sense of which one actually is the paladin?


Quoth stoutstien:

Now that's a challenge.
Yes, but you can just choose not to accept the challenge.

Quoth Slipjig:

It's designed to do exactly one thing: let the Paladin tank the biggest threat (or prevent their escape) while the rest of the party cleans up the mooks. If the DM tends to play smart and have bad guy bruisers go after the squishies, it's not terrible.
Yeah, that's the design goal, and there's certainly room for a spell that does that. The problem isn't that holding the enemy's aggro isn't a thing worth doing. The problem is that this spell is just terrible at it. The requirements:
1: It uses a spell (and hence a preparation and a spell slot).
2: It's negated on a save.
3: It uses your concentration.
4: It only affects one enemy.
5: The enemy can still attack anyone they want, just at disadvantage.
6: If you do anything to anyone other than that enemy, the spell ends.
7: If any of your allies does anything to that enemy, the spell ends.
8: If you even move away from that enemy, the spell ends.

Take away all but one or two of those limitations, and it'd be a good, useful ability. But eight limitations is way too much.

[KorvinStarmast]

What is really happening is that there are four version of the same PC in the space, three of which are illusions and one which is real. The enemy can't tell the difference, so might attack an illusion instead of you. So far so good.

Yes, by the rules of the game, the enemy is "targeting you". But by the narrative, that's not what is happening. The enemy might be targeting an illusion of you instead. As far as the enemy knows, it is targeting you, but it's eyes deceive it. Illusion spell.

I agree with your narrative reading, but that doesn't actually help the OP's case. The narrative point of Compelled Duel is that the enemy is enchanted to make them focus on you, so they get worse at directing their attacks at anyone else. If they can't distinguish between the actual you and your mirror duplicates, to the point that they are convinced they're attacking you even when they're swinging at an image, then nothing in Compelled Duel regarding the disadvantage should actually apply.

TL;DR - both by RAW and by the narrative of how the spells work, CD provides no protection to your illusory selves. +1 for clear and concise.
The problem is that this spell is just terrible at it. The requirements:
1: It uses a spell (and hence a preparation and a spell slot).
2: It's negated on a save.
3: It uses your concentration.
4: It only affects one enemy.
5: The enemy can still attack anyone they want, just at disadvantage.
6: If you do anything to anyone other than that enemy, the spell ends.
7: If any of your allies does anything to that enemy, the spell ends.
8: If you even move away from that enemy, the spell ends.

Take away all but one or two of those limitations, and it'd be a good, useful ability. But eight limitations is way too much. Concur. And too many fiddly bits in an edition that was trying to cut down on them.

[Slipjig]

What if you cast Compelled Duel, and then the party is hidden behind a wall for a moment, and then the sorcerer uses Seeming to make you look like the sorcerer and the sorcerer look like you? When you come back out, will the enemy attack the person who looks like the paladin, or will they have a magical sense of which one actually is the paladin?

Nothing in the spell description lets the target track the caster. I'd say that as long as the target THINKS he is attacking the caster, no Disadvantage. But I'd say it's also reasonable to say that the target still feels compelled to attack the actual caster, even if they look different now.

And I agree it's a seriously underwhelming spell, even as a bonus action. It should probably be a cantrip.

[Chronos]

A cantrip would require a significant redesign, since it's supposed to be for paladins, and they don't, by default, get cantrips.

[Talionis]

You are intentionally stretching to make your bad combo work. Simulacrum says it's a creature; Mirror Image does not. That means that Mirror Image is not a creature, as it doesn't explicitly state that it is or reference Simulacrum or other spells that do.

I've said my piece. You've made your decision, clearly, and I'm no longer interested in debating with someone who comes asking if something will work and refuses to acknowledge when the answer is quite clearly, no.

I think this is totally the wrong attitude. I started the thread wondering if it would work and to see if people could poke holes in it. I am advocating on the other side but not trying to say you are wrong. You may think your own opinion is an absolute. I see gray area, I don’t see my opinion as absolute. In truth you have cast more doubt on my opinion but I’m not changed in mind that it is clever enough to talk it through with a DM.

[Talionis]

What if you cast Compelled Duel, and then the party is hidden behind a wall for a moment, and then the sorcerer uses Seeming to make you look like the sorcerer and the sorcerer look like you? When you come back out, will the enemy attack the person who looks like the paladin, or will they have a magical sense of which one actually is the paladin?


Yes, but you can just choose not to accept the challenge.

Yeah, that's the design goal, and there's certainly room for a spell that does that. The problem isn't that holding the enemy's aggro isn't a thing worth doing. The problem is that this spell is just terrible at it. The requirements:
1: It uses a spell (and hence a preparation and a spell slot).
2: It's negated on a save.
3: It uses your concentration.
4: It only affects one enemy.
5: The enemy can still attack anyone they want, just at disadvantage.
6: If you do anything to anyone other than that enemy, the spell ends.
7: If any of your allies does anything to that enemy, the spell ends.
8: If you even move away from that enemy, the spell ends.

Take away all but one or two of those limitations, and it'd be a good, useful ability. But eight limitations is way too much.

I completely agree that Compelled Duel is a poorly designed spell. I’m not sure that if I were redesigning it, I would remove some of these limitations and leave it a first level, bonus action cast but the rest would remain on the table to adjust. I think this is the original soft taunt in 5e. The other soft taunts on Guardian Armorers, Cavaliers, and Ancestral Barbarians are all stronger but we’re added later to the game.

[Chronos]

The Protection fighting style is just as old.

[Jerrykhor]

Sigh, why does wotc use the terms duplicate, clone, double and image interchangeably? It just shows how bad they are at writing rules.

One thing to note is that if it doesnt call out something as a creature, it is not.

Another thing is that whether said duplicate/illusion is meant to be separate from you. Mirror Image says it shares your space, and you can't control it like how you can with Major Image or Mislead. Therefore the intention is that the illusions are 'you'. Its meant to make you harder to hit, not confuse the enemies as to which one is the real you. I always picture Mirror Image to be like Blur but different mechanics.