High Level Polearm Masterand additional feats

[herrhauptmann]

Our regular game today was replaced with a one-shot level 20 game, when we'd been planning to play at level 3. Not having a lot of time, I chose to make a bugbear fighter since I'd already used a level 8 version. Champion with Great Weapon Fighting style.

But I was stuck on choosing my feats versus stat boosts.

Polearm master naturally
Sentinel
Mage slayer
Lucky
Fey touched, to go with the feylost background and fey racial ability. I chose misty step.


What were other good/useful feats? I thought about Savage Attacker, but throwing in that many extra rerolls would've slowed the game down too much. I ended up choosing Crusher because of the haft attack I'd get with Polearm master, but it didn't get used because the monk kept stunning everything anyway. And I kept forgetting to do the shove.

[LudicSavant]

Our regular game today was replaced with a one-shot level 20 game, when we'd been planning to play at level 3. Not having a lot of time, I chose to make a bugbear fighter since I'd already used a level 8 version. Champion with Great Weapon Fighting style.

But I was stuck on choosing my feats versus stat boosts.

Polearm master naturally
Sentinel
Mage slayer
Lucky
Fey touched, to go with the feylost background and fey racial ability. I chose misty step.


What were other good/useful feats? I thought about Savage Attacker, but throwing in that many extra rerolls would've slowed the game down too much. I ended up choosing Crusher because of the haft attack I'd get with Polearm master, but it didn't get used because the monk kept stunning everything anyway. And I kept forgetting to do the shove.

Be warned, while Polearm Master is usually a good feat, it actually lowers the on-turn DPR of level 20 Champions.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/1124830423747416154.webp?size=160&quality=lossless

This is because at high levels, a Champion...
1) Has so many attacks that the damage die difference between 1d10 and 2d6 actually starts to add up. The weapon damage die difference alone is +1.5 damage per swing and +1.5 damage per crit, at a point where you have 4-9 swings and crit frequently. And that's before counting the GWF fighting style (it adds another +0.8 damage to glaive, but +1.33 repeating damage to greatswords). Meaning that the weapon damage die difference alone is a little over +2 damage per hit and +4 per crit -- which can definitely add up over 4-9 attacks and frequent crits!

2) It has such a high chance of "at least one crit per turn" that you often get a bonus action attack just from GWM alone. Every turn that this happens (and it can easily be more than 50% of your turns), PAM's bonus action is creating no value.

To really give you a concrete idea of this, if you have 4 attacks and crit on an 18, you have ~48% chance of at least one of those attacks being a crit -- which means that the value of PAM's bonus action attack is reduced by about half. If you get Advantage, then you have about a ~73% chance of at least one crit. If you have Action Surge, then you have a ~93% chance of at least one crit.

So yeah. For level 20 Champions specifically, Polearm Master is kind of a waste of a feat. You're actually shooting yourself in the foot.

What you really want is...
- Boost to initiative (especially since you're a Bugbear Fighter!)
- Boosts to per-hit damage or control/support.
- Resistance to shenanigans that take you out of the fight (saves, walls, etc).
- The maneuverability to get in and hit people with your sword consistently, and/or options to fall back on when you can't get in.

[stoutstien]

Anything that gives you better movement options is worth all the damage in the world for the champion. Melee champs might be the slowest and easiest PC option to lock out of their primary choice of dealing damage.

[herrhauptmann]

So yeah. For level 20 Champions specifically, Polearm Master is kind of a waste of a feat. You're actually shooting yourself in the foot.

What you really want is...
- Boost to initiative (especially since you're a Bugbear Fighter!)
- Boosts to per-hit damage or control/support.
- Resistance to shenanigans that take you out of the fight (saves, walls, etc).
- The maneuverability to get in and hit people with your sword consistently, and/or options to fall back on when you can't get in.
Thank you for the math.
Any suggestions on feats or items for these? Besides Alert.

The misty step helped a lot of course. I was lucky enough to roll high, so bugbear gave me an extra 10d6, and definitely want to ensure I get that more. But besides boosting my dex, I'm not sure what options there are, let alone which ones are best.



Anything that gives you better movement options is worth all the damage in the world for the champion. Melee champs might be the slowest and easiest PC option to lock out of their primary choice of dealing damage.

Yup. Misty step was great.

[LudicSavant]

Thank you for the math.
Any suggestions on feats or items for these? Besides Alert.

How many/what rarity items do you get?

[herrhauptmann]

How many/what rarity items do you get?
We had 3, no limitations on rarity. But nothing that would give us resistance or immunities.

Belt of giant strength 29 (cloud?)
Someone showed me a ruidium weapon which is apparently homebrew/critical role. +2d6 psychic, but I don't think it's magical.
Beholder crown.

I spent a lot of my prep time just trying to copy in my feats and abilities, didn't have a lot of time to check magical equipment. (I'm a luddite so I prefer paper character sheets and only get the phone out in-game to check rules.)

[LudicSavant]

Someone showed me a ruidium weapon which is apparently homebrew/critical role. +2d6 psychic, but I don't think it's magical.

There's a non-homebrew version of this in Volo's Guide to Monsters, called the Mind Blade. It does +2d6 psychic damage.

[Mastikator]

IMO you may want to look into some defensive feats like Resillient (wisdom), in case the DM throws a fear/charmer/dominator that might incapacitate your character or even use them against the other PCs. It's not as exciting as pole arm master but neither is having your character frightened and unable to approach the enemy.

[Derges]

Somone actually taking mage-slayer? :O

That feat needs some profound love to do what it says on the tin. Imo it should trigger before the spell completes and force a concentration save or lose the spell being cast. Otherwise, mages just misty step in a mage-slayer's face and by the time the attack comes out they're 30 feet away.

[herrhauptmann]

Somone actually taking mage-slayer? :O

That feat needs some profound love to do what it says on the tin. Imo it should trigger before the spell completes and force a concentration save or lose the spell being cast. Otherwise, mages just misty step in a mage-slayer's face and by the time the attack comes out they're 30 feet away.
I thought it did. Interrupt casting just like Counterspell.

[stoutstien]

I thought it did. Interrupt casting just like Counterspell.

Not quite if your table cares about RAW.

When a creature within 5 feet of you casts a spell, you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against that creature.

-this is probably the bullet you're referring to and you'll note that it only activates after the spells and cast which mean it's already happened so you can't actually interrupt it.


When you damage a creature that is concentrating on a spell, that creature has disadvantage on the saving throw it makes to maintain its concentration.

-this bullet is fine but usually the best forms of interruption is definitive such as incapacitated.


You have advantage on saving throws against spells cast by creatures within 5 feet of you.

- within 5ft is not where most caster like to hangout so this doesn't come up often unless you grapple a lot. Also being a bugbear with reach weapons is all about *not* needing to be right next to them.


If your table is ok with lite Homebrew you could look at the monster slayer hunter for inspiration to update mage slayer to be more applicable

[LudicSavant]

I thought it did. Interrupt casting just like Counterspell.

Alas, it does not.

[Derges]

Not quite if your table cares about RAW.

When a creature within 5 feet of you casts a spell, you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against that creature.

-this is probably the bullet you're referring to and you'll note that it only activates after the spells and cast which mean it's already happened so you can't actually interrupt it.


Exactly. It's a consequence of the trigger beings "casts" not "begins casting" and reactions resolving after the triggering action has resolved. Given that we're 9 years after the PHB launched the justification that it was unintended or an oversight of how reactions play out has faded for me. Martials just can't have nice things.

[tokek]

We had 3, no limitations on rarity. But nothing that would give us resistance or immunities.

Belt of giant strength 29 (cloud?)
Someone showed me a ruidium weapon which is apparently homebrew/critical role. +2d6 psychic, but I don't think it's magical.
Beholder crown.

I spent a lot of my prep time just trying to copy in my feats and abilities, didn't have a lot of time to check magical equipment. (I'm a luddite so I prefer paper character sheets and only get the phone out in-game to check rules.)

If I had total choice of magic weapon for a fighter I would probably go for something ultra-funky for special abilities or a dragon's fury weapon at ascendent level (Legendary). The dragon's fury weapon is a +3 weapon that also does +3d6 damage per hit of a type matching that of the dragon hoard it came from. It also has a once per day 60' cone effect that's basically a 12d6 dragon breath attack. Also - and I bet everyone forgets this except on the lower level versions - when you roll a 20 on your attack you can do a bonus 5 damage to anything within 5' of your target. It also has randomly rolled side-benefit most of which are inconsequential. This is from Fizban's and its fully official.

[herrhauptmann]

Looked at a few other magic items.
The only given is the belt of strength.

Dragonwrath weapon
Rod of lordly might. (Includes a flame tongue sword as well as an axe, spear, and mace.)
Boots of speed
Helm of teleportation. Both of which help mobility issues.

[herrhauptmann]

. It also has randomly rolled side-benefit most of which are inconsequential. This is from Fizban's and its fully official.

Which benefit is that? I looked at a wiki page (I know, wikis aren't good) and don't see that.

[Joe the Rat]

Quirks roll 1d8


Draconic Quirks
When resting on the ground, the item points in the diretion of the last hoard it steeped in
The item's bearer can speak and understand Draconic
The item glows softly when within 60 feet of a Dragon or another hoard item
The item's bearer gains a swimming speed equal to their walking speed
The item's bearer has advantage on Intelligence (History) checks
The item's bearer gas advantage on Charisma (Intimidation) checks made against non-Dragons
the item grants its bearer resistance to the damage type of the breath weapon of the last dragon whose hoard the item steeped in
The item's bearer dreams of the dragon whose hoard the item last steeped in


So the quirks range from Ribbon to Resistance in potency.

[Sorinth]

Somone actually taking mage-slayer? :O

That feat needs some profound love to do what it says on the tin. Imo it should trigger before the spell completes and force a concentration save or lose the spell being cast. Otherwise, mages just misty step in a mage-slayer's face and by the time the attack comes out they're 30 feet away.

Just rename it Cleric-Slayer and problem solved.

[herrhauptmann]

Just rename it Cleric-Slayer and problem solved.
Atheist/agnostics revenge?


Quirks roll 1d8

So the quirks range from Ribbon to Resistance in potency.
A few of those are pretty nice.

[Sorinth]

Atheist/agnostics revenge?

Clerics don't have the easy escape spells like Misty Step and all the bullet points of Mage Slayer work against them quite well. So it's actually a decent feat if you are going up against evil clerics instead of evil wizards.

[stoutstien]

Clerics don't have the easy escape spells like Misty Step and all the bullet points of Mage Slayer work against them quite well. So it's actually a decent feat if you are going up against evil clerics instead of evil wizards.

They also tend to have decent AC and Con so it's kinda a wash. Npc clerics are almost always bruisers as well. Even the lowly priest has a chainshirt and a melee smite feature.

[Sorinth]

They also tend to have decent AC and Con so it's kinda a wash. Npc clerics are almost always bruisers as well. Even the lowly priest has a chainshirt and a melee smite feature.

It's not a wash because they have decent AC and Con regardless of you having mage slayer and you will want them to lose concentration. It's precisely because it's harder for them to lose Concentration under normal circumstances that Mage-Slayer counteracting those advantages becomes important. Against a squishy caster who has a good chance of failing no matter how much damage they take Mage Slayer is less important.

[stoutstien]

It's not a wash because they have decent AC and Con regardless of you having mage slayer and you will want them to lose concentration. It's precisely because it's harder for them to lose Concentration under normal circumstances that Mage-Slayer counteracting those advantages becomes important. Against a squishy caster who has a good chance of failing no matter how much damage they take Mage Slayer is less important.

It's the same because fighters don't do well with the damage based concentration bashing approach because they like volume to deal their damage. Rogue or pally (or anyone who can resource dump) sure but the disadvantage on any single fighter attack isn't going to turn that many saves into fails to be worth much in the long run.

Basically if they already you have a decently good chance to break the enemy's Con then the fighter will already break it because multiple checks but if the target has a higher base chance that you won't break it over a normal action then you want to push the Con DC up first and foremost. The break point is around then needing to roll changes based on the starting point but damage can jump the DC up way past what disadvantage can ever come close to doing. The best CoN checks are ones they can't pass.

Definitely not worth a feat IMO unless all you face is spell casters and even then there are better ways to deal with them that cost way less.

[Derges]

Just rename it Cleric-Slayer and problem solved.

Excellent work, please go here https://company.wizards.com/en/careers , provide your details and Sue from HR will call you with an offer.

[LudicSavant]

Clerics don't have the easy escape spells like Misty Step and all the bullet points of Mage Slayer work against them quite well. So it's actually a decent feat if you are going up against evil clerics instead of evil wizards.

Giving high level Cleric NPCs Disadvantage on low DC Con saves doesn't help all that much in my experience, because they can often automatically make those saves anywho.

Disadvantage works best when the chance of making the save isn't already super high.