Monk Rework

[MrStabby]

For a while I have wanted to explore some modifications to the monk base class. his is revisiting some changes I first looked at a few years ago (before Tasha's at least - this version includes the ACF content there.

I think the monk is a really well designed class with a lot of cool features, that doesn't always quite fit into games well with other classes. I have a few issues to fix/aims here.

1) The monk isn't a damage dealer and probably shouldn't be - or at least not in the same way any other martial class is. It has OK damage, but its real identity is in doing so much more in combat than just doing damage. Under many circumstances though, the monk trades too much for this.

2) The monk doesn't benefit like other classes do from addition of feats and magic items to the game. Giving fighters access to feats like sharpshooter or Pole Arm Mastery is a huge boost - monks get nothing of that level. Feats like Fey Touched let any class get monk-type mobility at least on those few occasions where it really matters. The same with magic items - a fighter getting a magic weapon reduces one of the primary defensive attributes of things like fiends to a ribbon and takes away the special nature of the monk. Even against enemies not resistant, a magic weapon that adds damage to 100% of attacks is going to do a little better than one that adds a bonus to 50% to 75% of attacks as a monk uses unarmed strikes for the rest. Monks being MAD also means fewer feats free anyway. Letting the monk not be overshadowed in games that use these rules is an aim.

3) The monk looks a busy class but a lot of its benefits are really stopgaps. A class like a fighter or a paladin doesn't need a class feature like unarmoured efence as they hae access to armour, nor do they need martial arts as they just natively come with weapons that do that amount of damage anyway, without a bonus action. This redesign won't be afraid of making the class a bit busier.

At a first pass, I don't think I have quite got there. The grappling/thowing martial arts elements are somewhat mitigated by needing to sacrifice an attack. Still worth it sometimes for sure, but not just a simple upgrade. It in part fills the control role well enough. Other elements are a flat upgrade, which probably offsets enough any real gap in power between monks and other classes in fealess games.

Where I think this sucks is that it doesn't address things like the fey touched feat. When you special thing was mobility to reach enemies other martials couldn't, what do you do when it isn't special anymore and others can teleport to that same target and still hit it harder? There are some mobility upgrades added, but they don't really fix the problem - without feats you can do something others couldn't when it really mattered, with this it just means you can keep doing it, even when it doesn't.

Some additions do help - picking up expertise as a feat will make grappling/shoving/throwing better, letting a monk still get something from the addition of feats to the game.

I also feel the monk at high levels gets a bit boring. I gets good abilities, but they tend to be either very passive, and not let you actively do something new or the new thing is a minor upgrade that doesn't feel cool. From stillness of mind at 7th level through to 18th level and empty body, the core monk can't do anything new (subclasses can add some elements). Stillness of mind is not only relatively niche but is still reactive and relies on the DM making some very specific choices. I have done nothing about this but should do. Another ability at level 13 or so that takes Ki would close that gap. Monks being MAD even means its a bit harder to spare the feats to take fun new actions there.




Class Features

As a monk, you gain the following class features.
Hit Points

Hit Dice: 1d8 per monk level
Hit Points at 1st Level: 8 + your Constitution modifier
Hit Points at Higher Levels: 1d8 (or 5) + your Constitution modifier per monk level after 1st
Proficiencies

Armor: None
Weapons: Simple weapons, shortswords
Tools: Choose one type of artisan's tools or one musical instrument
Saving Throws: Strength, Dexterity
Skills: Choose two from Acrobatics, Athletics, History, Insight, Religion, and Stealth
Equipment

You start with the following equipment, in addition to the equipment granted by your background:


(a) a shortsword or (b) any simple weapon
(a) a dungeoneer's pack or (b) an explorer's pack
10 darts

Monastic Focus
Beginning at 1st level you chose either Wisdom or Intelligence as your ability score that your class abilities use, this is your Focus modifier

Intelligence is a less good stat than wisdom, but why not open up the class to be scholastic warriors?

Unarmored Defense

Beginning at 1st level, while you are wearing no armor and not wielding a shield, your AC equals 10 + your Dexterity modifier + your Focus modifier.
Martial Arts

At 1st level, your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of combat styles that use unarmed strikes and monk weapons, which are shortswords and any simple melee weapons that don't have the two-handed or heavy property.
You gain the following benefits while you are unarmed or wielding only monk weapons and you aren't wearing armor or wielding a shield:


You can use Dexterity instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of your unarmed strikes and monk weapons.



You can roll a d4 in place of the normal damage of your unarmed strike or monk weapon. This die changes as you gain monk levels, as shown in the Martial Arts column of the Monk table.



When you use the Attack action with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon on your turn, you can make one unarmed strike as a bonus action. For example, if you take the Attack action and attack with a quarterstaff, you can also make an unarmed strike as a bonus action, assuming you haven't already taken a bonus action this turn.

Certain monasteries use specialized forms of the monk weapons. For example, you might use a club that is two lengths of wood connected by a short chain (called a nunchaku) or a sickle with a shorter, straighter blade (called a kama). Whatever name you use for a monk weapon, you can use the game statistics provided for the weapon.

No change here

Ki

Starting at 2nd level, your training allows you to harness the mystic energy of ki. Your access to this energy is represented by a number of ki points. Your monk level determines the number of points you have, as shown in the Ki Points column of the Monk table.
You can spend these points to fuel various ki features. You start knowing three such features: Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense, and Step of the Wind. You learn more ki features as you gain levels in this class.
When you spend a ki point, it is unavailable until you finish a short or long rest, at the end of which you draw all of your expended ki back into yourself. You must spend at least 30 minutes of the rest meditating to regain your ki points.
Some of your ki features require your target to make a saving throw to resist the feature's effects. The saving throw DC is calculated as follows:
Ki save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Focus modifier


Flurry of Blows. Immediately after you take the Attack action on your turn, you can spend 1 ki point to make two unarmed strikes as a bonus action.



Patient Defense. You can spend 1 ki point to take the Dodge action as a bonus action on your turn.



Step of the Wind. You can spend 1 ki point to take the Disengage or Dash action as a bonus action on your turn, and your jump distance is doubled for the turn.

No change... the early levels ar mostly fine

Unarmored Movement

Starting at 2nd level, your speed increases by 10 feet while you are not wearing armor or wielding a shield. This bonus increases when you reach certain monk levels, as shown in the Monk table.
At 9th level, you gain the ability to move along vertical surfaces and across liquids on your turn without falling during the move.


Grappling Arts

At 2nd level, your training allows you to use your speed and agility to effectively grapple an enemy, rather than raw strength. You may use your dexterity bonus rather than your strength bonus when amking an athletics check to initiate or break a grapple or to shove an enemy. You may replace any unarmed attack with a grapple or shove attempt not just those undertaken as part of the attack action.
The first big change. I feel that martial artists should be better grapplers than the rules supports. I furthermore feel that this leans into the 'martial character doing more than damage' focus and filing out the melee controller role. Supporting a grapple instead of an unarmed strike allows alternative moves as the puches, kicks, headbutts fall behind attacks with powerful magical weapons. This also interacts with shoving, which matters later.



Dedicated Weapon

Also at 2nd level, you train yourself to use a variety of weapons as monk weapons, not just simple melee weapons and shortswords. Whenever you finish a short or long rest, you can touch one weapon, focus your ki on it, and then count that weapon as a monk weapon until you use this feature again.
The chosen weapon must meet these criteria:


The weapon must be a simple or martial weapon.



You must be proficient with it.



It must lack the heavy and special properties.

The additional class feaure is now baked in

Monastic Tradition

When you reach 3rd level, you commit yourself to a monastic tradition. Your tradition grants you features at 3rd level and again at 6th, 11th, and 17th level.


Deflect Missiles

Starting at 3rd level, you can use your reaction to deflect or catch the missile when you are hit by a ranged weapon or spell attack. When you do so, the damage you take from the attack is reduced by 1d10 + your Dexterity modifier + your monk level.
If you reduce the damage to 0, you can catch the missile if it was part of a weapon atack and if it is small enough for you to hold in one hand and you have at least one hand free. If you catch a missile in this way, you can spend 1 ki point to make a ranged attack with a range of 20/60 using the weapon or piece of ammunition you just caught, as part of the same reaction. You make this attack with proficiency, regardless of your weapon proficiencies, and the missile counts as a monk weapon for the attack.
Can now catch spells. Its a situational ability, unlike other martial classes getting more HP or whatever so making it a little less situational is good.

Ki-Fueled Attack

Also at 3rd level, if you spend 1 ki point or more as part of your action on your turn, you can make one attack with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon as a bonus action before the end of the turn. At level 10 you may instead chose to gain a number of temporary hitpoints equal to a roll of your mrtial arts die.
The temp HP is added. This lets monks have just a little bit of a defensive boost instead of an attack (say if there are no more enemies within reach or they are burning Ki to make an excape)

Ability Score Improvement

When you reach 4th level, and again at 8th, 12th, 16th, and 19th level, you can increase one ability score of your choice by 2, or you can increase two ability scores of your choice by 1. As normal, you can't increase an ability score above 20 using this feature.
Slow Fall

Beginning at 4th level, you can use your reaction when you fall to reduce any falling damage you take by an amount equal to five times your monk level.


Graceful Throw

At 4th level, when you shove an enemy you may shove them an additional 5ft if you move them in a horizontal direction. Furthermore, when you succeed on the athetics check you do not have to chose beween knocking them prone and pusing them but may do both instead.
Throws, as much as grapples or strikes are part of matial arts. Again, it lets monks be a bit more of a controller. These are somewhat modest abilities but I think they will add up. 10ft throw and half movement for an enemy to stand and monk mobility can help you keep some enemies out of a fight quite nicely. It should help monks sometimes feel special.

Ths is the level where other matrials that can take Big Feats can start to open up a lead on monks in terms of usefulness. Holding some of this power to here wasn't an accident. The monk is still pretty good here, mostly because everyone has a single attack so the bonus action really shines

Quickened Healing

Also at 4th level, as an action, you can spend 2 ki points and roll a Martial Arts die. You regain a number of hit points equal to the number rolled plus your proficiency bonus.

Another ACF

Extra Attack

Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
Stunning Strike

Starting at 5th level, you can interfere with the flow of ki in an opponent's body. When you hit another creature with a melee weapon attack, you can spend 1 ki point to attempt a stunning strike. The target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or be stunned until the end of your next turn.
Focused Aim

Also at 5th level, when you miss with an attack roll or fail an opposed ability check, you can spend 1 to 3 ki points to increase your roll by 2 for each of these ki points you spend, potentially changing the result.
ACF, but with the additon of supporting ability checks

Ki-Empowered Strikes

Starting at 6th level, your unarmed strikes count as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage.
Evasion

At 7th level, your instinctive agility lets you dodge out of the way of certain area effects, such as a blue dragon's lightning breath or a fireball spell. When you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, you instead take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, and only half damage if you fail.
Stillness of Mind

Starting at 7th level, you can use your action to end one effect on yourself that is causing you to be charmed or frightened and you have advantage on saving throws against these conditions.
Added advantage. In my experience this is about the lowest level where magic defences start to show up in games. Monks are less likely to pick up magic armour so some bolstered defences vs fear/charm is a defensive boost instead.

Purity of Body

At 10th level, your mastery of the ki flowing through you makes you immune to disease and poison.


Pressure Points

At 11th level, whenever you hit an enemy with a critical hit, you may chose to inflict one of folowing conditions on that enemy until the end of their next turn:


Blinded
Deafened
Prone


A new ability that is a straight upgrade. A no-save condition inficted should feel special, even if its relatively rare and very short lived

Tongue of the Sun and Moon

Starting at 13th level, you learn to touch the ki of other minds so that you understand all spoken languages. Moreover, any creature that can understand a language can understand what you say.


Meteroric Grace

At 13th level, your jump distance doubles and is considered trippled if the step of the wind ability is used. You also count as one size category larger when determining what bonuses or penalties or capabilities you might have when atempting to grapple or shove a creature.
A small mobility boost. Given you could spend Ki to do this anyway, its very minor. The boost to grappling is to offset some of how bad it can get at higher levels where between immunity and size a lot of enemies are just not going to be impacted. This should hopefully keep you being able to get some benefits from key abilities

Diamond Soul

Beginning at 14th level, your mastery of ki grants you proficiency in all saving throws.
Additionally, whenever you make a saving throw and fail, you can spend 1 ki point to reroll it and take the second result.
Timeless Body

At 15th level, your ki sustains you so that you suffer none of the frailty of old age, and you can't be aged magically. You can still die of old age, however. In addition, you no longer need food or water and gain resistance to necrotic damage.
Necrotic damage resisance added

Empty Body

Beginning at 18th level, you can use your action to spend 4 ki points to become invisible for 1 minute. During that time, you also have resistance to all damage but force damage.
Additionally, you can spend 8 ki points to cast the astral projection spell, without needing material components. When you do so, you can't take any other creatures with you.
Perfect Self

At 20th level, when you roll for initiative and have no ki points remaining, you regain 6 ki points.
Buffed from 4 to 6

[JNAProductions]

Monastic Focus
Seems fine. Wizard synergy is potentially an issue (double-dipping with Bladesinger, for instance) but I'll ignore multiclassing and evaluate this as a single-classed Monk. In which case, no issues.

Grappling Arts
Neat!

Deflect Spell
Explain how it works when you catch a spell and throw it back. As written now, it's unclear-though the mental image is AWESOME.

Ki-Fueled THP
I don't think Monks need more backend durability boosts. Let them gain THP at level three-it shouldn't break a thing, and will help them not die.

Graceful Throw
Also neat!

Pressure Points
I'd rather make it something you can choose to use, rather than rely on a crit.

Meteoric Grace
Seems good.

Perfect Self
Change it so "If you would roll initiative while you have less than X Ki, you regain the difference." Right now, it still has the wonkiness of "Spend all Ki before a fight or you'd have less than 4/6."

[LudicSavant]

Before I dive into the rework itself, some commentary on the underlying theory:


1) The monk isn't a damage dealer and probably shouldn't be - or at least not in the same way any other martial class is. It has OK damage, but its real identity is in doing so much more in combat than just doing damage. Under many circumstances though, the monk trades too much for this. The Monk's main job from their core chassis is to take out or otherwise manage key single targets (by damage or stuns or even tanking features at high levels), and then they usually get another job from their subclass, if that subclass is any good (e.g. Mercy and Shadow).

Either way, I think it's important to remember that "skirmisher" is an aesthetic, not a role. Mobility generally facilitates your ability to fulfill whatever your role is, rather than being a role unto itself.


2) The monk doesn't benefit like other classes do from addition of feats and magic items to the game.

I'd like to add some caveats to this.


Giving fighters access to feats like sharpshooter or Pole Arm Mastery is a huge boost - monks get nothing of that level.

Post-Tasha's Monks benefit quite a lot from Sharpshooter. I'd say the real issue is less that they don't benefit from feats, and more that that they're so darn MAD and ASI-starved that they don't really have a whole lot of space to customize with them.


Even against enemies not resistant, a magic weapon that adds damage to 100% of attacks is going to do a little better than one that adds a bonus to 50% to 75% of attacks as a monk uses unarmed strikes for the rest.

This one isn't quite mathematically true. Even if we put aside items like Eldritch Claw Tattoo, the percentage of attacks that gets boosted isn't actually what matters; the total size of the boost is.

For a simplified example, if you give a Flametongue to a Paladin, 100% of their attacks might get boosted, but that may still be just 2 attacks for +4d6 damage. Meanwhile if you give a Flametongue to a Monk, they'll make 2-3 attacks +4d6 or +6d6 damage (with KFA). That's not less.

For another example, Monks actually can benefit more than many other classes from certain magic items that have powerful effects, but a low base damage die (since they replace that die via Martial Arts). Two Birds Sling is a good example of this phenomenon.


Monks being MAD also means fewer feats free anyway.

On this, I completely agree. Monks have a problem not just with the number of attributes they want, but how much they want them. For example, imagine a Paladin dumped Charisma (they shouldn't do this, just imagine it for the sake of illustration of a principle). If this happened, they would still have a perfectly competent AC, their Smites would hit just as hard, many of their spells would be just as effective, their Lay on Hands would still function at full capacity, etc etc. Oh sure, they'd lose save DC and aura strength, and that hurts, but they don't become crippled by the absence.

A Monk on the other hand tends to rely on both stats for any given function. If they dumped one of their stats, they'd have no AC, their attacks would suffer (either in accuracy, or save dc when they connect), and so forth. They just kind of become nonfunctional. They really need those stats, and thus have less opportunity to take feats.

It's not so much that feats are bad for them, it's that raising stats is more important to them than it is for any other class, and that's a problem.

[LudicSavant]

Monastic Focus
Beginning at 1st level you chose either Wisdom or Intelligence as your ability score that your class abilities use, this is your Focus modifier

Intelligence is a less good stat than wisdom, but why not open up the class to be scholastic warriors?


Perhaps word it instead as a Tasha's-style "variant class feature" and give it some kind of bonus along with being Int-based, to make up for Wis being a better stat.


No change... the early levels ar mostly fine I think Monks have it relatively rough in tier 1, personally. Their abilities (especially their defenses) are quite backloaded.


[B]Grappling Arts

At 2nd level, your training allows you to use your speed and agility to effectively grapple an enemy, rather than raw strength. You may use your dexterity bonus rather than your strength bonus when amking an athletics check to initiate or break a grapple or to shove an enemy. You may replace any unarmed attack with a grapple or shove attempt not just those undertaken as part of the attack action.
The first big change. I feel that martial artists should be better grapplers than the rules supports. I furthermore feel that this leans into the 'martial character doing more than damage' focus and filing out the melee controller role. Supporting a grapple instead of an unarmed strike allows alternative moves as the puches, kicks, headbutts fall behind attacks with powerful magical weapons. This also interacts with shoving, which matters later.

Hey look it's Laura from Street Fighter! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_U4QL6kosg

How about just straight up letting you use Acrobatics instead of Athletics?


The additional class feaure is now baked in
As it should be.



Can now catch spells. Its a situational ability, unlike other martial classes getting more HP or whatever so making it a little less situational is good.

Non-backloaded Deflect Energy is nice.


Ki-Fueled Attack

Also at 3rd level, if you spend 1 ki point or more as part of your action on your turn, you can make one attack with an unarmed strike or a monk weapon as a bonus action before the end of the turn. At level 10 you may instead chose to gain a number of temporary hitpoints equal to a roll of your mrtial arts die.
The temp HP is added. This lets monks have just a little bit of a defensive boost instead of an attack (say if there are no more enemies within reach or they are burning Ki to make an excape)

Level 10 is right about when Monks start getting their backloaded chonky boi abilities, so it seems a bit odd to me to put it there. Also I kinda feel like self-temp HP is an overused mechanic, but YMMV.


Focused Aim

Also at 5th level, when you miss with an attack roll or fail an opposed ability check, you can spend 1 to 3 ki points to increase your roll by 2 for each of these ki points you spend, potentially changing the result.
ACF, but with the additon of supporting ability checks

I like the idea of Focused Aim apply to ability checks, but why only opposed ones?


Added advantage. In my experience this is about the lowest level where magic defences start to show up in games. Monks are less likely to pick up magic armour so some bolstered defences vs fear/charm is a defensive boost instead.

I wish Stillness of Mind could be used on charm/fear effects that deny the use of your Action. Hell, I'd even pay ki for it if it could do that.


Pressure Points

At 11th level, whenever you hit an enemy with a critical hit, you may chose to inflict one of folowing conditions on that enemy until the end of their next turn:


Blinded
Deafened
Prone


A new ability that is a straight upgrade. A no-save condition inficted should feel special, even if its relatively rare and very short lived

I like the notion of adding a feature at level 11, and that it's an offensive feature (because Monks actually have a lot of backloaded defenses).


[B]Meteroric Grace

At 13th level, your jump distance doubles and is considered trippled if the step of the wind ability is used. You also count as one size category larger when determining what bonuses or penalties or capabilities you might have when atempting to grapple or shove a creature.
A small mobility boost. Given you could spend Ki to do this anyway, its very minor. The boost to grappling is to offset some of how bad it can get at higher levels where between immunity and size a lot of enemies are just not going to be impacted. This should hopefully keep you being able to get some benefits from key abilities

At this point it seems like you're actually leaning pretty heavily into all Monks being grapplers. Givin' the Rune Knights a run for their money, since Monks already have numerous features that would synergize with grappling if only they didn't dump Strength. So yeah. Laura Monks. Neat.


Diamond Soul

Beginning at 14th level, your mastery of ki grants you proficiency in all saving throws.
Additionally, whenever you make a saving throw and fail, you can spend 1 ki point to reroll it and take the second result.

I kind of wish this ability wasn't so toploaded. They have so much of their defensive budget wrapped up in this ability but it doesn't come until 14.


At 15th level, your ki sustains you so that you suffer none of the frailty of old age, and you can't be aged magically. You can still die of old age, however. In addition, you no longer need food or water and gain resistance to necrotic damage.
Necrotic damage resisance added

Sure, makes it less of a 'just flavor' level for more campaigns.



Perfect Self

At 20th level, when you roll for initiative and have no ki points remaining, you regain 6 ki points.
Buffed from 4 to 6

[/FONT][/COLOR]


I deeply dislike Perfect Self because if you actually make it worth much, it just leads to conversations like 'well, can I start initiative so that I can heal my buddy?' or 'oh no, I have 5 ki, I'd better burn 5 more before the next combat starts!'

I would rather just replace the feature entirely.

[Amechra]

Some thoughts:



I'd honestly just make the weapons that you can turn into Monk weapons with Dedicated Weapon Monk weapons to begin with (try saying that ten times fast!). The feature is a kludge to get around the fact that Dwarf Monks don't get axe-based kung-fu in the core version of the Monk anyway, so why not fix that in a rework?
I agree with Ludic - it's a little sad that Diamond Soul is just one big lump of a feature at 14th level. Maybe you could add Wisdom proficiency to Stillness of Mind and Constitution proficiency to Purity of Body, with Diamond Soul giving you Charisma and Intelligence plus the "spend a ki to reroll" thing? Or, heck, you could roll the reroll into Patient Defense by just having higher level Monks get advantage on more types of saves when dodging (a 10th level Monk can Dodge to improve their Dexterity, Wisdom, and Constitution saves. Don't question it).
For Perfect Self... I'd go for something more envelope-pushing. Maybe 20th level Monks are permanently considered to be Dodging, without needing to spend an action?
I think Step of the Wind needs an overhaul in order to make it actually satisfy the absurd parkour stuff that's iconic for the Monk's general archetype. It'd be cool if the "run up walls and on water" stuff was was something that you could use earlier on in your career (maybe only while dodging?), and if the Monk got the ability to Freedom of Movement themselves at some point (maybe as an upgrade to disengaging?)

[LudicSavant]

For Perfect Self... I'd go for something more envelope-pushing. Maybe 20th level Monks are permanently considered to be Dodging, without needing to spend an action?

My recommendation: Don't have a durability feature after Empty Body. Especially not a generic one.

[MrStabby]

Wow... a lot of replies. I will work through them in order.





Monastic Focus
Seems fine. Wizard synergy is potentially an issue (double-dipping with Bladesinger, for instance) but I'll ignore multiclassing and evaluate this as a single-classed Monk. In which case, no issues.

My bigger issue with wizard was probably divination wizard + open hand monk that then at level 19 can use portent to kill stuff. On the other hand, its level 19 and at that level a sraight lvel 19 wizard is probably more powerful anyway and most thing s you really, really want to kill will have legendary saves (and also there is no certainty you will roll low on portent dice). Other wizard synergy? I guess broader access to rituals and increased utility (though a feat will give that), shield and silvery barbs... yeah, good but no better than any other multiclass. I guess bladesinger could be an issue - given monk boosts to saves and the potential high AC you could be very tough.



Grappling Arts
Neat!

Deflect Spell
Explain how it works when you catch a spell and throw it back. As written now, it's unclear-though the mental image is AWESOME.
It was intended to be written such that you could deflect any attack but only throw back missiles... though following your comment I am questioning if this should be the case. Broadening it is certainly fun.




Ki-Fueled THP
I don't think Monks need more backend durability boosts. Let them gain THP at level three-it shouldn't break a thing, and will help them not die.
Honestly, this wasn't my favourite ability and it was kind of wedged in there as I found the lack of non-passive high level monk abilities dull. I wanted something that let you do
something differently - another choice to make as there were so many levels between them.

I would happily drop this if I could think of somehing better for that level - I had an inspiration failure.


Graceful Throw
Also neat!

Pressure Points
I'd rather make it something you can choose to use, rather than rely on a crit.
Happy to agree on pressure points. I wanted to be able to add a few more conditions that the monk could do - stunned and prone are great but I feel heading into Tier 3 that there should be something more. A Ki ability that would force a save other than con/str would go a long way here. Wis could do fear, but that crosses into Long Death territory. Maybe Bane effect on a hit- a series of strikes that slightly incapacitate them? Though that still would seem more a Con save than anything. Maybe a headbutt or knee strike or something that needs a Dex save? Something like:

Blow to the Voonerables
At level 11 as an action you may spend 1 Ki to aim a well placed blow to a sensitive area of your target. The target must make a dexterity save and on a fail they take four times your martial arts die of bludgeoning damage and are incapacitated until the end of their next turn. If the target is restrained or prone they have disadvantage on the save. On a succesful save they take half damage but are not incapacitated.

4 MA dice is probaby roughly the same as two attacks would do if they land, what you are exchanging for this use. Dex save gives something to do vs enemies with sky high armour and being able to force disadvantage on the save can open up some teamwork opportunities.


Meteoric Grace
Seems good.

Perfect Self
Change it so "If you would roll initiative while you have less than X Ki, you regain the difference." Right now, it still has the wonkiness of "Spend all Ki before a fight or you'd have less than 4/6."

Very good point. As it is, its a bit of an uncreative fix. I actually quite like the quicker recovery as a mechanic (if it worked) but it is so campaign dependent and can be vital or totally superfluous. I think ditching the whole ability and having a fun capstone would be better.


Before I dive into the rework itself, some commentary on the underlying theory:

The Monk's main job from their core chassis is to take out or otherwise manage key single targets (by damage or stuns or even tanking features at high levels), and then they usually get another job from their subclass, if that subclass is any good (e.g. Mercy and Shadow).

Either way, I think it's important to remember that "skirmisher" is an aesthetic, not a role. Mobility generally facilitates your ability to fulfill whatever your role is, rather than being a role unto itself.
100% agree its not a role, but I think its an important feature. Be it a circumstance where you get to shine because you get to attack and your peers have to dash or you get to pick out the vulnerable wizard and the barbarian faces off against a tank, its an important set of circumstances where the monk gets to be cool. Skirmisher or mobility or however you want to describe it is a method for achieving that - just as say having a longbow is. The fact that longbows do exist in the game does also reduce how special it is, but you can only fight so many battles at once. In this case the benefits of being up in someones face AND getting to chose a relatively inaccessible enemy to do it to.

Its probaby not a huge thing to most players, but in my experience it is a relatively important thing to players who chose to play monk.




I'd like to add some caveats to this.



Post-Tasha's Monks benefit quite a lot from Sharpshooter. I'd say the real issue is less that they don't benefit from feats, and more that that they're so darn MAD and ASI-starved that they don't really have a whole lot of space to customize with them.
This is one of those yes, but... things. You get a dex based class, you give them access to longbows then sure sharpshooter is fantastic. I have long been an advocate for Shadowmonks being quite fun archers. My issue is that if you wanted to play an archer you are still probably better off using a fighter or a ranger or a valor bard or a hexblade... Its a good feat for them, but its probably not an optimal character (though I think we place far too much emphasis on that).





This one isn't quite mathematically true. Even if we put aside items like Eldritch Claw Tattoo, the percentage of attacks that gets boosted isn't actually what matters; the total size of the boost is.
Well by "matters" it depends what you are measuring. The thought that went into this slightly odd way of expressing it was to compare between classes. Say you are comparing with a raging barbarian - if you have a +1 weapon on each, and each makes two attacks with it, the damage rolls are boosted by the same amount. However each barbarian attack will be doing more damage, to a +1 to hit is on average adding more damage because that one in twenty time it makes a difference, it makes a bigger absolute difference. Things like different weapon types, fighting styles, hex/hunter's mark... so many different damage boosts. There is kind of conceptual offsetting that these classes get more dmaging attacks but the monk makes more as compensation (though martial arts and flurry of blows), but if in some games the compensating extra attacks don't get the same boost an gap opens up. Rather than dive deep into a whole pit of assumptons and comparisons, I chose to use this to paper over the top a bit. It broadly argued what I wanted to show.

If it helps, you could also just assume a fighter with PAM making a BA attack with the weapon and just add more bonus there anyway.






On this, I completely agree. Monks have a problem not just with the number of attributes they want, but how much they want them. For example, imagine a Paladin dumped Charisma (they shouldn't do this, just imagine it for the sake of illustration of a principle). If this happened, they would still have a perfectly competent AC, their Smites would hit just as hard, many of their spells would be just as effective, their Lay on Hands would still function at full capacity, etc etc. Oh sure, they'd lose save DC and aura strength, and that hurts, but they don't become crippled by the absence.

A Monk on the other hand tends to rely on both stats for any given function. If they dumped one of their stats, they'd have no AC, their attacks would suffer (either in accuracy, or save dc when they connect), and so forth. They just kind of become nonfunctional. They really need those stats, and thus have less opportunity to take feats.

It's not so much that feats are bad for them, it's that raising stats is more important to them than it is for any other class, and that's a problem.
I think there is another minor point to add... rolling for stats can make and given monk a lot more powerful or almost unplayable. That's probably a seperate fight to pick though.




Perhaps word it instead as a Tasha's-style "variant class feature" and give it some kind of bonus along with being Int-based, to make up for Wis being a better stat.

I think Monks have it relatively rough in tier 1, personally. Their abilities (especially their defenses) are quite backloaded.

Hmm. Maybe. I mean objectively it seems the right thing to do. I have an odd attachment to symmetry and would therefore want to give an ability to both stats, but make the Int one stronger.

It may be DM specific, but I have fount monks pretty solid in Tier 1. Reliably getting two attacks is good. Decent AC before anyone can afford top armour. No magic items... level 4 they fall behind a bit if feats are in play, but averaged over all four levels I think they do pretty well.




Hey look it's Laura from Street Fighter! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_U4QL6kosg

How about just straight up letting you use Acrobatics instead of Athletics?

Well... that was quite a video.

I guess something like that. One thing that video does make me think, is that maybe it would be nice to have a pin added. Although you could pick up a feat for that. I am very wary of making the class too dependant on these options though; either you add ever more stuff and you have a class thats overpowered, or you come up against things like ghosts and you just suck because all your power has gone to unusable abilities.






Level 10 is right about when Monks start getting their backloaded chonky boi abilities, so it seems a bit odd to me to put it there. Also I kinda feel like self-temp HP is an overused mechanic, but YMMV.
Hmm. I think the abilities in this region are variable and kind of depend on your choice of subclass as to whether they are good or not.

Temp HP overused? Maybe. I can see a case for it. It might be lazyness on my part but t seemed a safeish thing to balance. A small amount to let the monk take a few blows, but because it wouldn't stack its round by round impact would be limited and the times you would really want it, you would also want to make an attack. As I mentioned earlier in the post, I kind of wanted an activaed ability to do new stuff here. Collectively you are convincing me this is a long way from the mark (and I didn't begin with thinking it was great).




I like the idea of Focused Aim apply to ability checks, but why only opposed ones?
Opposed helps wit things like grapples etc. - just providing the same support as to other attacks. The Only opposed clause is because I feel that the monk design space is somewhat close to the rogues and where we can take a step to give the rogue their own space, I think we should. Let them be the skill monkey.




I wish Stillness of Mind could be used on charm/fear effects that deny the use of your Action. Hell, I'd even pay ki for it if it could do that.
I thought about that. I wasn't sure if it would be too powerful. I mean as an ability it could be prefectly reasonable, its just within the context of a LOT of potential upgrades. I have certainly seen monks charmed by vampires that wouldn't want to use the ability. I do get that it would be good - you feel that the class should be good at it, you get an ability to be good at it... but it all slips though. Coupled with no native wisdom save proficiency you are a lot worse at fear/charm effects than matches my imagination of the class.




I like the notion of adding a feature at level 11, and that it's an offensive feature (because Monks actually have a lot of backloaded defenses).
Yeah, I did want something. I also like the idea of monks being good and powerful whist still being lower damage so wanted something to play to that. Still not totally happy (its a bit of a passive buff still where the class lacks new decisions to make).




At this point it seems like you're actually leaning pretty heavily into all Monks being grapplers. Givin' the Rune Knights a run for their money, since Monks already have numerous features that would synergize with grappling if only they didn't dump Strength. So yeah. Laura Monks. Neat.
My ideal balance point wouldn't be all monks being grapplers, but all monks having it as part of a toolbox and they can be very capable of pulling it out as needed.

One possible shift might be to couch some of the abilities as ACFs - replacing some of the attacking abilities. Martial arts, stunning strike, flurry of blows, and Ki-empowerd strike are the optons, but the risks of not having access to these seem pretty steep. You would need something as always useful as punching enemeies to replace it - losing the ablity to punch well when so many enemies (especially at higher levels) are immune to your class abilities would be tough.




I kind of wish this ability wasn't so toploaded. They have so much of their defensive budget wrapped up in this ability but it doesn't come until 14.
It is basically the good ability in hgher tier. Its what keeps you going in monk, I find. The marginal value of another Ki point has dropped a bit, the other abilities are meh... but this is excpetional. No reason why it couldn't be spread out. Grant additional save proficiencies at levels both before and after this and then still keep the reroll at level 14.




Sure, makes it less of a 'just flavor' level for more campaigns.
There is enough stuff still at high levels that can do necrotic damage that resistance to decrepiture will probably come up... whilst not being overwhelming.




I deeply dislike Perfect Self because if you actually make it worth much, it just leads to conversations like 'well, can I start initiative so that I can heal my buddy?' or 'oh no, I have 5 ki, I'd better burn 5 more before the next combat starts!'

I would rather just replace the feature entirely.
Very inclined to agree. I always have trouble with these real top level abilities - I have played at this level but not that much. Also every campaign I played at this level has been so different and with such a different party makeup making huge differences to experience I feel its a bit of a crapshoot.








Some thoughts:



I'd honestly just make the weapons that you can turn into Monk weapons with Dedicated Weapon Monk weapons to begin with (try saying that ten times fast!). The feature is a kludge to get around the fact that Dwarf Monks don't get axe-based kung-fu in the core version of the Monk anyway, so why not fix that in a rework?
I agree with Ludic - it's a little sad that Diamond Soul is just one big lump of a feature at 14th level. Maybe you could add Wisdom proficiency to Stillness of Mind and Constitution proficiency to Purity of Body, with Diamond Soul giving you Charisma and Intelligence plus the "spend a ki to reroll" thing? Or, heck, you could roll the reroll into Patient Defense by just having higher level Monks get advantage on more types of saves when dodging (a 10th level Monk can Dodge to improve their Dexterity, Wisdom, and Constitution saves. Don't question it).
For Perfect Self... I'd go for something more envelope-pushing. Maybe 20th level Monks are permanently considered to be Dodging, without needing to spend an action?
I think Step of the Wind needs an overhaul in order to make it actually satisfy the absurd parkour stuff that's iconic for the Monk's general archetype. It'd be cool if the "run up walls and on water" stuff was was something that you could use earlier on in your career (maybe only while dodging?), and if the Monk got the ability to Freedom of Movement themselves at some point (maybe as an upgrade to disengaging?)


1. I like that. I really like that. Although it kind of relies on not playing with the optional rules around stat-switching on races. Chosing a race to be proficient in a cool weapon is nice, but I am wary of being able to shop around to just get what you want with no cost.
2. Not sure I like dodging to give advantage on saves, though as I noted, I would be quite happy to spread out the proficiencies. I would prefer to let players chose though.
3. Permenant dodging... Not sure. I can kind of see it. Maybe. I was actually thinking maybe when you dodge you can also chose a damage type to be resisant to? On a 1 on 1 with a monster with a typical attack it could be strong, but much weaker vs hordes and would play to a style of isolating and picking off enemies.
4. Yes. Agree in general principle, but I think that the point about freedom of movement is maybe excellent. That special part of mobility that I feel monks have lost as other classes can pick up teleportarion more readily - freedom of movement ability could fix. As a reaction to a spell being cast? At the start of your turn? Letting you shrug off some elements of hypnotic pattern or hold person would also slightly soften the lack of wisdom save. It could be a good level 7 ability - even just as a once per day thing.




My recommendation: Don't have a durability feature after Empty Body. Especially not a generic one.
Although I guess if there were to be a perfecly thematic endurance ability, then Empty body could be revisited (though I do quite like it).



A lot here to think on.

[titi]

Maybe for the capstone you could do something like "whenever you take the attack action or make a fury of blow, you make 3 attacks instead of 2"

To really emphasis on the "death by a thousand cuts" that seems to be monk dps thing

[Amechra]

@LudicSavant: I mean, something like half of the classes in the game weren't designed with anything approaching a "defensive budget" in mind, so unless you also want to overhaul all of the spellcasting classes...


1. I like that. I really like that. Although it kind of relies on not playing with the optional rules around stat-switching on races. Chosing a race to be proficient in a cool weapon is nice, but I am wary of being able to shop around to just get what you want with no cost.
2. Not sure I like dodging to give advantage on saves, though as I noted, I would be quite happy to spread out the proficiencies. I would prefer to let players chose though.
3. Permenant dodging... Not sure. I can kind of see it. Maybe. I was actually thinking maybe when you dodge you can also chose a damage type to be resisant to? On a 1 on 1 with a monster with a typical attack it could be strong, but much weaker vs hordes and would play to a style of isolating and picking off enemies.
4. Yes. Agree in general principle, but I think that the point about freedom of movement is maybe excellent. That special part of mobility that I feel monks have lost as other classes can pick up teleportarion more readily - freedom of movement ability could fix. As a reaction to a spell being cast? At the start of your turn? Letting you shrug off some elements of hypnotic pattern or hold person would also slightly soften the lack of wisdom save. It could be a good level 7 ability - even just as a once per day thing.



Given how incredibly vanilla weapons are in 5e, I wouldn't worry about it - at best, given the limitations, you're looking at a mighty +1 to damage on some of your attacks. There are much bigger fish to fry.
The idea between omni-save dodging is that, well... what are you actually doing when you Dodge? You're staying mobile and attentive of your surroundings, ready to quickly respond to attacks. Looking at it that way, the Monk getting to "dodge" a save against poison is more about readying themselves to deal with the problem than it is about moving out of the way of the poison.
(Actually #2 continued): Part of the reason I was like "ooh, you can tie the save proficiencies with XYZ feature" instead of "you get to pick the save proficiencies" is that the Monk already gets abilities that are thematically linked to different types of saves (Purity of Body? Con saves. Stillness of Mind? Wis saves.). Also, I'm of the opinion that, while getting more save proficiencies is kinda cool, picking new save proficiencies is a really boring choice. See my earlier preoccupation with consolidation and streamlining.
(#3, but actually still kinda #2?): I feel like damage resistance while Dodging is something that could come online a bit earlier than 20th level. :p
If you give the Monk a 1/day feature, Baby Jesus will start crying. That's just how the world works. More seriously, there's a reason why I suggested tying it to the Disengage action instead of making it its own thing - you're not casting a spell, you're just that slippery.

[LudicSavant]

@LudicSavant: I mean, something like half of the classes in the game weren't designed with anything approaching a "defensive budget" in mind, so unless you also want to overhaul all of the spellcasting classes...

My point is that if Monks need defensive help, it's mostly at lower levels.

[MrStabby]

Maybe for the capstone you could do something like "whenever you take the attack action or make a fury of blow, you make 3 attacks instead of 2"To really emphasis on the "death by a thousand cuts" that seems to be monk dps thing

Not such a fan of this. Firstly, its like the fighter capstone. Just a worse version of what they get isn't really selling the class. Secondly, a flat damage boost can be good and I am not saying it isn't a fun ability, but if monk is the class you have chosen its probably not the kind of ability to get you that excited. Now a death by 1000 cuts as a capstone could be a good idea - doing some bleeding damage over time or something. Something like d12 damage at the start of their turn, doesn't stack and takes a Con save at end of enemy's turn to end. Its still d12 damage per enemy at worst and possibly more - it also plays nicely with hit and run tactics and abilities to control emenies whilst they bleed out. D12 seems very low for level 20 though... maybe 2d10?





Given how incredibly vanilla weapons are in 5e, I wouldn't worry about it - at best, given the limitations, you're looking at a mighty +1 to damage on some of your attacks. There are much bigger fish to fry.
The idea between omni-save dodging is that, well... what are you actually doing when you Dodge? You're staying mobile and attentive of your surroundings, ready to quickly respond to attacks. Looking at it that way, the Monk getting to "dodge" a save against poison is more about readying themselves to deal with the problem than it is about moving out of the way of the poison.
(Actually #2 continued): Part of the reason I was like "ooh, you can tie the save proficiencies with XYZ feature" instead of "you get to pick the save proficiencies" is that the Monk already gets abilities that are thematically linked to different types of saves (Purity of Body? Con saves. Stillness of Mind? Wis saves.). Also, I'm of the opinion that, while getting more save proficiencies is kinda cool, picking new save proficiencies is a really boring choice. See my earlier preoccupation with consolidation and streamlining.
(#3, but actually still kinda #2?): I feel like damage resistance while Dodging is something that could come online a bit earlier than 20th level. :p
If you give the Monk a 1/day feature, Baby Jesus will start crying. That's just how the world works. More seriously, there's a reason why I suggested tying it to the Disengage action instead of making it its own thing - you're not casting a spell, you're just that slippery.



Some good points. Most weapons are not an issue, but the Tasha's ability to swap weapon proficiencies to give everyone access to longbows, halberds, whips, lances, nets as monk weapons could open some problems (er... I think. I will admit I took one look at the rules there, concluded a hard NO for my table so might not remember exactly what was there).The visualisaton I have with the dodge bonus is that dodging is then multiple things. Taking an action to brace to resist an enchantment is different to getting steady footing to resist a tidle wave which in turn is different to being alert for incomming fireballs or attacks. Improved defences vs enchantmens shouldn't also boost your defencs against attacks. Possibly adding another action/BA that gives advantage on WIS/INT/CHA saves as an alternative might be cool though. Less powerful, but other things can be tweeked to manage overall power.OK, I see your point about some of the other abilities being closely tied to a save. I like it, its thematically strong. How it balances over the life of the class is a bit different though. I think I am being convinced of this.Regarding freedom of movement being tied to disengage - I think this limits it a bit. Spells like hold person still hit just as hard, same for anything else that reduces speed and stops actions.Damage resistance when dodging could be earlier, though I still think it ain't great as an ability. Its another one that is too passive.


My point is that if Monks need defensive help, it's mostly at lower levels.
Personally I find its the mid levels that are tough. At low levels you are just a couple of HP off the HP of other classes, you have relatively good AC before anyone else can afford new armour. You rarely face that many more arrows per round than deflect arrows can cope with and you are better able to retreat than most other characters if things get nasty. At the top end, awesome saves are awesome.In the middle though DM can scale enemies to reflect the toughness of the party, and the monk may fall behind. Casters are not crippled by losing a spell slot or two to shield. Incoming attack numbers increas as multiattack becomes common and this can include shooting attacks. Vulnerable characters can pick up their level of fighter or cleric in a multiclass to boost AC. SAD classes are starting to boost CON (possibly) and open up a HP gap. Evasion helps, but its still not really that much over the range of these middle levels.Then there is the magic items - again, very DM dependent but there are more types of suit of magic armor than things that can boost a monk AC.

[LudicSavant]

Personally I find its the mid levels that are tough.

That's still a lower level than 20 :smalltongue:


At low levels you are just a couple of HP off the HP of other classes, you have relatively good AC before anyone else can afford new armour.

At level 1 specifically, a Monk has ~10 hp, 16 AC, and does 1d8+1d4+6 damage. A TWF Fighter at the same level has ~13 hp (130% as much base), 16 AC, does 2d6+6 damage, and has Second Wind for an extra 6.5 hp average per short rest (even using this only once a day means the Fighter has about twice the durability as the Monk, but they can use it multiple times/day).

The only way for the level 1 Monk to be something more than "a very squishy version of the TWF Fighter" is if they roll unusually high on stats.

Things improve after that, of course (though it does so more for ranged monks than for melee-focused ones).

[Amechra]

My point is that if Monks need defensive help, it's mostly at lower levels.

Oh, most definitely. My suggestion of perma-dodge was in the context of getting Diamond Soul in drips and drabs starting at earlier levels, with the capstone being less "here's a brand new defensive feature!" and more "hey, you don't need to spend a bonus action on this anymore. Happy days! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQAIoSC3kAQ)"

Another alternative could be "you get two bonus actions per turn - you can't use the same bonus action twice in the same turn" or whatever (kinda like the Swordsage, come to think of it...).


Regarding freedom of movement being tied to disengage - I think this limits it a bit.

That was kinda the idea, especially since it's something you can basically do at-will. That said, I could've sworn that you could use Freedom of Movement to "cure" paralysis? If not... throw that in too, I guess.


The only way for the level 1 Monk to be something more than "a very squishy version of the TWF Fighter" is if they roll unusually high on stats.

Heretical statement: the Monk should get one of their dumb parkour abilities at 1st level. You could honestly get away with "while unarmored, you get +5ft speed and can run up walls or over water as if it were difficult terrain", or something similarly juicy.

[JNAProductions]

That was kinda the idea, especially since it's something you can basically do at-will. That said, I could've sworn that you could use Freedom of Movement to "cure" paralysis? If not... throw that in too, I guess.

It can be used that way... But if you're paralyzed, you have no action to get Freedom active with.

[Amechra]

It can be used that way... But if you're paralyzed, you have no action to get Freedom active with.

Ah, but being incapacitated makes you unable to take actions or reactions, and Step of the Wind is a bonus action. Completely different!

(Yeah, I know, I know, the rules for bonus actions specifically say that stuff that prevents you from taking actions also prevent you from taking bonus actions...)

[titi]

Not such a fan of this. Firstly, its like the fighter capstone. Just a worse version of what they get isn't really selling the class. Secondly, a flat damage boost can be good and I am not saying it isn't a fun ability, but if monk is the class you have chosen its probably not the kind of ability to get you that excited. Now a death by 1000 cuts as a capstone could be a good idea - doing some bleeding damage over time or something. Something like d12 damage at the start of their turn, doesn't stack and takes a Con save at end of enemy's turn to end. Its still d12 damage per enemy at worst and possibly more - it also plays nicely with hit and run tactics and abilities to control emenies whilst they bleed out. D12 seems very low for level 20 though... maybe 2d10?

I'm not sure how it's weaker than the fighter capstone, but fair enough.

I just don't like that monks start with so many attacks per rounds, and then cap at lvl 5