DMG Monster building guidelines: HP and DPR

[PhoenixPhyre]

Ok, what do people think. Are the numbers presented in Chapter 9, "Monster Statistics by Challenge Rating", in your experience,


1) for Hit Points

* too high?
* too low?
* just right?
* inconsistently suitable (ie good at some levels but not at others)?
* other?

2) for Damage/Round

* too high?
* too low?
* just right?
* inconsistently suitable?
* other?


HP: there's a fairly consistent trend where each 1 <= CR < 20 differs from the previous one by adding 15 and 20 <= CR <= 30 adds 45.

If we (arguendo) take "3 rounds under fire" as the design-time baseline lifespan of a monster, those translate to roughly an expected damage scaling of 5 party DPR/level, with a baseline of 26 for CR 1. At least until you're facing CR 20+, at which point your damage is expected to scale faster...or fights are expected to take longer. Or both.

DPR: Assuming mage armor and a +2 DEX, a d6 HD character has AC 15 at level 1 and between 6 (+0 CON) and 10 (implausibly +4 CON) HP. By the table, a CR 1 hits AC 15 45% of the time. A d8 HD character in light armor has, say, AC 14. So I'm going to say a "weak" (defensively, considering here only passive AC/HP) character is hit ~50% of the time and has between 7 and 10 HP. Let's say 8 for the sake of this argument.

A CR 1 monster deals between 9 and 14 damage if everything hits. That's between 4.5 and 7 actual damage (after accounting for accuracy). Which, conveniently, is right in the right range to not be able to 1-round a fully-health "weak" character on average. Now a crit can change this, so there is a chance to drop a "weak" character.

Monster DPR increases by 6/CR (CR >= 1) up until CR 20 -> 21, where it increases by 18 and keeps that pattern through CR 30 (again with the triple-scaling after CR 20). That's conveniently exactly the amount of HP you'd get if you had a d6 HD and +2 CON or a d8 HD and +1 CON or a d10 HD and +0 CON (hah!). So until CR 21+, and accounting for the fact that monster attack bonuses grow faster than PC AC (until you include magic items and higher levels of optimization), you get something fairly steady--a CR X monster can, but is unlikely to (ie requires a max-damage roll on its attacks or crits) to drop a level X "weak" character (defined as mage armor + non-maxed dex or light armor and increasing dex to cap, with d6 +2 HD or d8 + 1 HD) from 100% to 0% in a single round.

[stoutstien]

HP is fine but damage is inconsistent and is hedging too many bets on the party positioning and actions.

[Envyus]

Curious to see how it changes come the 2024 DMG.

[LudicSavant]

Perhaps relevant: https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/12d23y2/jeremy_crawford_at_the_creator_summit_the_cr/

[PhoenixPhyre]

Perhaps relevant: https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/12d23y2/jeremy_crawford_at_the_creator_summit_the_cr/

Slightly relevant, but not particularly useful. There are lots of things that could be wrong with it that aren't the specific values of those two tables. Without further detail, I disregard all such comments as empty.

Edit:
I will say that my own data and calculations reveals that HP is by far the most "out of band" value, even calculating effective HP (ie after adjustments for traits, resistances, etc). Based on the monsters in the MM, Volos, and MToF, it's only within guidelines on average for two CRs: 0 and 1/8. And 1/8 is only barely within guidelines. It's low consistently from then until CR 10, after which it's above guidance for every CR except 12 (biased strongly by the archmage at 124 eHP, since there just aren't that many CR 12s) and then at CR 18 (again biased strongly by the demilich at 170 eHP because there are so few).

Which likely suggests that their effective health guidance is wonky, overvaluing certain features at high CRs but undervaluing others at lower levels. Or maybe they just decided they didn't actually like the numbers that resulted.

DPR is much more mixed, being above band at a few CRs (< 1 and 13-15), on-band at a few more (1-3, 6-8, and 12), and below band for the rest, especially CR 16+. But the deviations aren't nearly as tremendous as they are for HP.

[SpikeFightwicky]

Ok, what do people think. Are the numbers presented in Chapter 9, "Monster Statistics by Challenge Rating", in your experience,


1) for Hit Points

* too high?
* too low?
* just right?
* inconsistently suitable (ie good at some levels but not at others)?
* other?

2) for Damage/Round

* too high?
* too low?
* just right?
* inconsistently suitable?
* other?


HP: there's a fairly consistent trend where each 1 <= CR < 20 differs from the previous one by adding 15 and 20 <= CR <= 30 adds 45.

If we (arguendo) take "3 rounds under fire" as the design-time baseline lifespan of a monster, those translate to roughly an expected damage scaling of 5 party DPR/level, with a baseline of 26 for CR 1. At least until you're facing CR 20+, at which point your damage is expected to scale faster...or fights are expected to take longer. Or both.

DPR: Assuming mage armor and a +2 DEX, a d6 HD character has AC 15 at level 1 and between 6 (+0 CON) and 10 (implausibly +4 CON) HP. By the table, a CR 1 hits AC 15 45% of the time. A d8 HD character in light armor has, say, AC 14. So I'm going to say a "weak" (defensively, considering here only passive AC/HP) character is hit ~50% of the time and has between 7 and 10 HP. Let's say 8 for the sake of this argument.

A CR 1 monster deals between 9 and 14 damage if everything hits. That's between 4.5 and 7 actual damage (after accounting for accuracy). Which, conveniently, is right in the right range to not be able to 1-round a fully-health "weak" character on average. Now a crit can change this, so there is a chance to drop a "weak" character.

Monster DPR increases by 6/CR (CR >= 1) up until CR 20 -> 21, where it increases by 18 and keeps that pattern through CR 30 (again with the triple-scaling after CR 20). That's conveniently exactly the amount of HP you'd get if you had a d6 HD and +2 CON or a d8 HD and +1 CON or a d10 HD and +0 CON (hah!). So until CR 21+, and accounting for the fact that monster attack bonuses grow faster than PC AC (until you include magic items and higher levels of optimization), you get something fairly steady--a CR X monster can, but is unlikely to (ie requires a max-damage roll on its attacks or crits) to drop a level X "weak" character (defined as mage armor + non-maxed dex or light armor and increasing dex to cap, with d6 +2 HD or d8 + 1 HD) from 100% to 0% in a single round.


In my experience, I guess it's hard to rate HP and DPR separately, since they're so related. I find that the rules rely on a bit of a "gentleman's arrangement", in the sense that you can make some BONKERS stat blocks by following their rules. For example, a Troll is CR 5, it has 84 HP, AC 15, +7 attack bonus and 29 DPR. So...
Defensive CR is 4 (CR 3 for HP, regen of 10 gives "total" hp of 114, AC is 2 points higher than indicated, so CR 4)
Offensive CR is 5 (CR 4 for 29 DPR, attack bonus is 2 higher than indicated, so CR 5)
Round up we get the proper CR of 5 (despite the fact that not once have I ever seen a troll's regen come into play thanks to firebolt)

However, say I want a purely offensively oriented CR 5 creature. By fiddling with the numbers, I can make a monster with 70 hp, 15 ac (Defensive CR 1) and 62 dpr, +8 attack bonus (Offensive CR 9) and this is also a CR 5. HP is a bit lower than the troll, but the DPR is SIGNIFICANTLY deadlier. For example, I can give it the following:
Multiattack: Creature X makes 2 claw and one bite attack OR it makes 2 caustic belch attacks.
Bite: +8 melee attack, 22 (3d10+6)
Claw: +8 melee attack, 19 (3d8+6)
Caustic Belch: 120 ft. ranged attack, 31 (8d6+3)

I would always want to face the troll over "Creature X", despite the identical CR. I can also give "Creature X" any buffs allowed that don't increase CR (like 2 saving throw proficiencies, climbing, earthglide, etc...). I don't think the monster manual has anything that comes close to this as a simple "grunt" style creature. I can make an identical creature "Creature Y" that's the same CR as Creature X that has significantly HP and DPR. It's just kind of weird, and after homebrewing a slew of monsters, I typically just ballpark it anyways, using the monster creation rules very loosely.

[J-H]

I use the Blog of Holding method, and the quick reference sheet from said blog.

[PhoenixPhyre]

In my experience, I guess it's hard to rate HP and DPR separately, since they're so related. I find that the rules rely on a bit of a "gentleman's arrangement", in the sense that you can make some BONKERS stat blocks by following their rules. For example, a Troll is CR 5, it has 84 HP, AC 15, +7 attack bonus and 29 DPR. So...
Defensive CR is 4 (CR 3 for HP, regen of 10 gives "total" hp of 114, AC is 2 points higher than indicated, so CR 4)
Offensive CR is 5 (CR 4 for 29 DPR, attack bonus is 2 higher than indicated, so CR 5)
Round up we get the proper CR of 5 (despite the fact that not once have I ever seen a troll's regen come into play thanks to firebolt)

However, say I want a purely offensively oriented CR 5 creature. By fiddling with the numbers, I can make a monster with 70 hp, 15 ac (Defensive CR 1) and 62 dpr, +8 attack bonus (Offensive CR 9) and this is also a CR 5. HP is a bit lower than the troll, but the DPR is SIGNIFICANTLY deadlier. For example, I can give it the following:
Multiattack: Creature X makes 2 claw and one bite attack OR it makes 2 caustic belch attacks.
Bite: +8 melee attack, 22 (3d10+6)
Claw: +8 melee attack, 19 (3d8+6)
Caustic Belch: 120 ft. ranged attack, 31 (8d6+3)

I would always want to face the troll over "Creature X", despite the identical CR. I can also give "Creature X" any buffs allowed that don't increase CR (like 2 saving throw proficiencies, climbing, earthglide, etc...). I don't think the monster manual has anything that comes close to this as a simple "grunt" style creature. I can make an identical creature "Creature Y" that's the same CR as Creature X that has significantly HP and DPR. It's just kind of weird, and after homebrewing a slew of monsters, I typically just ballpark it anyways, using the monster creation rules very loosely.

I'd say the big problem there is not the raw numbers from the table, but the (wrong, IMO) idea that you can average two very differently-formed numbers and get a useful result. That is, if you said that a troll was a 5/4 monster and the Creature X was a 9/1, the problems mostly go away.

A troll is a balanced monster, suitable for use as part of a small group or a master + minions. Creature X is a minion for a higher level encounter. It's designed to pack a punch but have no staying power. Glass cannons, meat walls, balanced monsters...they're all useful. Just in very different scenarios. And it's important not to mistake them for each other. The current "unified CR" model (badly, IMO) obscures that reality.

But that doesn't make the numbers in the table bad, only the use to which they're put. And yes, the DMG could do a lot better of a job describing that. I'll say that one of the changes I'm making in my WIP is to remove the idea of "CR" as a unified thing. There's only Offensive Rating and Defensive Rating. And neither feed directly into encounter calculations, not even via XP (which is also removed).

[Skrum]

I've never used the full monster builder before, but I use the CR stat by table level all the time. Any of my custom monsters, I refer to that table. I find it to be very helpful for dialing in my encounters.

1) I start with what I want the encounter to be, in broad strokes. For a basic example, a boss and 4 minions.
2) I go to kobold fight club, enter my party size and level, and start adding monster (looking only at CR) to get the difficulty right. In this example, for a group of 4 level 7 characters, to get an encounter of a difficulty I know works for my players, I need to use a CR 8 boss and 4 CR 3 minions.
3) For the boss, I'd refer to the table to get my HP, AC, attack bonus, damage range *for base attacks*, and DC of abilities/spells. I'd then make up some flavorful ways to dress up these numbers, and tweak the numbers a little to fit. Maybe they have 2 very very strong attacks, or 4 weaker ones. Maybe they have good AC, in which case I'd reduce their HP a little. That sort of thing. I'm very fond of bosses having a flexible multiattack - attack 4 times, or attack twice and use an ability/cast a spell. I'll also make some of their abilities, particularly defensive ones, as a bonus action. If they don't get to act a lot more than any particular member of the party, they stand no chance. If this was a villain of the week, I'd leave it there.
4) If it's not just a villain of the week and it's someone more important, I add legendary actions and legendary resistance. Especially if they don't otherwise have an AoE, I like to give them that with their legendary action. Breath weapon, explosion of somesort; something to make the players consider where they're standing. It's hard to say exactly how much an AoE will do, but I aim to have the "headline" damage values of legendary actions be about half the headline damage values of the bosses main turn. E.g., if they can swing for 65 on their turn, their legendary AoE should do about 30-35.
5) Give them some kind of defensive ability. Mirror Image is great for this; the players can still attack and "hit" something, but it saves the boss the damage. I've used this on several bosses in various forms (shadows, illusions, smoke, etc.).
6) Finally, I make the minions. I always look for a printed monster I can use and tweak as needed; rarely do I feel the need to go through the whole table process. If I do though, I cap HP around 50 (for minions). They're too annoying to take down otherwise.

[Kane0]

I use the Blog of Holding method, and the quick reference sheet from said blog.

Ooh, neat. Thanks!

[JNAProductions]

I use the Blog of Holding method, and the quick reference sheet from said blog.

This the one? (https://www.blogofholding.com/?p=7338)

[J-H]

This the one? (https://www.blogofholding.com/?p=7338)

Yes, the full page PDF version.

[Unoriginal]

Ok, what do people think. Are the numbers presented in Chapter 9, "Monster Statistics by Challenge Rating", in your experience,


1) for Hit Points

* too high?
* too low?
* just right?
* inconsistently suitable (ie good at some levels but not at others)?
* other?

2) for Damage/Round

* too high?
* too low?
* just right?
* inconsistently suitable?
* other?


HP: there's a fairly consistent trend where each 1 <= CR < 20 differs from the previous one by adding 15 and 20 <= CR <= 30 adds 45.

If we (arguendo) take "3 rounds under fire" as the design-time baseline lifespan of a monster, those translate to roughly an expected damage scaling of 5 party DPR/level, with a baseline of 26 for CR 1. At least until you're facing CR 20+, at which point your damage is expected to scale faster...or fights are expected to take longer. Or both.

DPR: Assuming mage armor and a +2 DEX, a d6 HD character has AC 15 at level 1 and between 6 (+0 CON) and 10 (implausibly +4 CON) HP. By the table, a CR 1 hits AC 15 45% of the time. A d8 HD character in light armor has, say, AC 14. So I'm going to say a "weak" (defensively, considering here only passive AC/HP) character is hit ~50% of the time and has between 7 and 10 HP. Let's say 8 for the sake of this argument.

A CR 1 monster deals between 9 and 14 damage if everything hits. That's between 4.5 and 7 actual damage (after accounting for accuracy). Which, conveniently, is right in the right range to not be able to 1-round a fully-health "weak" character on average. Now a crit can change this, so there is a chance to drop a "weak" character.

Monster DPR increases by 6/CR (CR >= 1) up until CR 20 -> 21, where it increases by 18 and keeps that pattern through CR 30 (again with the triple-scaling after CR 20). That's conveniently exactly the amount of HP you'd get if you had a d6 HD and +2 CON or a d8 HD and +1 CON or a d10 HD and +0 CON (hah!). So until CR 21+, and accounting for the fact that monster attack bonuses grow faster than PC AC (until you include magic items and higher levels of optimization), you get something fairly steady--a CR X monster can, but is unlikely to (ie requires a max-damage roll on its attacks or crits) to drop a level X "weak" character (defined as mage armor + non-maxed dex or light armor and increasing dex to cap, with d6 +2 HD or d8 + 1 HD) from 100% to 0% in a single round.


I would say the numbers are right, but in a "favorless stat blob" fashion.

In that they work, but reaquire work and tweaking to get a statblock with personality and narrative purpose backed in.

[Chronos]

From the spoiler in the OP:

DPR: Assuming mage armor and a +2 DEX, a d6 HD character has AC 15 at level 1 and between 6 (+0 CON) and 10 (implausibly +4 CON) HP.

...

A CR 1 monster deals between 9 and 14 damage if everything hits. That's between 4.5 and 7 actual damage (after accounting for accuracy). Which, conveniently, is right in the right range to not be able to 1-round a fully-health "weak" character on average.
I'm not sure an average is really meaningful, here. At CR 1, isn't a single-attack action still fairly common? That means the monster either does 9-14 damage (which probably will drop a 1st-level character), or it does none. You can average those out and say it's doing about half of a PC's HP, but that average is something that'll never actually come up. And even if it's dealing that damage in two attacks, that's still around a 1 in 4 chance of dropping a PC, which is not something to be neglected. This isn't a matter of "what if the monster crits", just "what if the monster hits".