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MisterSaturnine
2007-12-07, 06:17 PM
What with all the bard talk a week or two back, I got into making a Bard, but I wanted a bard that could do some combat in melee, still cast spells competently (going into Sublime Chord), and still have some skills to throw around to act as a party face.

I kept looking at a number of options, such as taking Power Attack/Improved Bullrush/Shock Trooper, but it didn't really feel right and sounds like it wouldn't really be worth it until he got Shock Trooper at level 9.

Then I stumbled upon this idea flipping through sourcebooks, and I think it might work.

Human: Dragontouched
1st level: Martial Study (Sapphire Nightmare Blade)
3rd level: Dragonfire Inspiration
6th level: Martial Study (Emerald Razor)
9th level: Martial Stance (Pearl of Black Doubt)
12th level: Battle Caster
15th level: Martial Study (Ruby Nightmare Blade)
18th level: Fell Drain

He'd be taking plenty of spells to help with defense, like Mirror Image, Blur, Displacement, and Greater Blink. Any thoughts?

zaei
2007-12-07, 09:17 PM
If you want to mix in ToB stuff, why not just take some warblade levels, and then go into Jade Phoenix Mage?

MisterSaturnine
2007-12-07, 09:28 PM
Mostly because I don't want to lose any spells--although I want the character to be combat-able enough, the main focus is the spells, hence going into Sublime Chord. I could take a few Warblade levels and then take Practiced Spellcaster, but I'd lose a bunch of useful spells.

Thanks for the suggestion, though, and it does deserve consideration. :smallsmile:

Nermy
2007-12-07, 09:33 PM
If you have access to Dragon #311 and are willing to make your character worship Gruumsh, you can take:
5 / 5 / 4 / 5 / 1
Bard / Battle Howler of Gruumsh / Sublime Chord / Abjurant Champion / Spellsword.

It would mean two less feats, since you'd have to invest in Cleave and Power Attack to get into Battle Howler, but you get +17 BAB and full casting progression and the ability to rage.

zaei
2007-12-07, 09:37 PM
Alternatively, you could take Sublime Chord, and then stack JPM on top of it. Just seems like an awful lot of feats getting dumped for a few maneuvers that you could probably pick up from a level or two of warblade. 7 Bard/3 Warblade gets you into SC, and then JPM.

Also, Snowflake Wardance is a nice feat for fighting bards.

MisterSaturnine
2007-12-07, 10:42 PM
Nermy: Unfortunately, neither rage nor worship fit the character concept very well. He's the sneaky con-man roguish type, but enjoys using magic/music to augment these abilities.

Zaei: Your point is getting progressively clearer and clearer...back to the drawing board. *sigh*

BardicDuelist
2007-12-07, 10:45 PM
If you're going sublime chord, you really only need bard 8 to get third level spells and inspire courage +2 (insipre greatness really isn't worth it). Two levels of warblade will free up your feats and make you better at melee without any real loss of spellcasting.

That being said, five level of Jade Phoenix Mage (if you can enter it with only one warblade level, which I don't know if you can as I don't know a whole lot about ToB), would net you an excellent combination of sublime chord and martial adept. You do need to spend a feat to make perform a class skill to be viable, though (Able Learner should do the trick, actually).

Edit: Bard 7/Warblade 2/JPM 1/SC 1/JPM 4/SC 5 does make a very viable build to blend bard and martial adept. I still highly reccomend Able Learner to keep up with some of your bard skills.

Kurobara
2007-12-07, 11:19 PM
Also, keep in mind that Dragonfire Inspiration by default gives fire for the energy type on the damage, which a lot of things resist or are immune to. I'd recommend picking up the Draconic Heritage feat for a dragon with a better breath weapon type - core dragon types only, I'd mostly go with copper, black, or green for acid, or perhaps bronze or blue for electricity. Otherwise, definitely go with emerald (MM2) or battle (Draconomicon) - they both grant sonic, which very little resists and is also very fitting for a bard.

Still not a bad feat even with fire damage if you can't find room for another feat, though. Especially since you can decide whether to give xd6 energy damage or the normal inspire courage bonuses.

I had a Bard/Crusader based around DFI once myself, with the sonic damage from Draconic Heritage (Battle Dragon). The party loved it, especially since I convinced the party face with enough bard levels to get 3rd level spells to pick up Creaking Cacophony (SC).

BardicDuelist
2007-12-07, 11:24 PM
What book is dragonfire inspiration from?

MisterSaturnine
2007-12-07, 11:37 PM
I'm pretty sure it's from Dragon Magic.

zaei
2007-12-07, 11:45 PM
Edit: Bard 7/Warblade 2/JPM 1/SC 1/JPM 4/SC 5 does make a very viable build to blend bard and martial adept. I still highly reccomend Able Learner to keep up with some of your bard skills.
Make sure you take your levels of JPM AFTER getting into SC. JPM spellcasting only increases casting of a class that you belonged to before taking JPM levels.

Another feat:
Arcane Strike - You want this feat, use up spells to hit harder and more accurately (CWar)

BardicDuelist
2007-12-08, 12:03 AM
Actually, JPM says that you gain spellcasting as if you had added a level in a class that you belonged to before adding the prestige class level.

This means that it is the specific level with which you gain caster level increase that you choose to add spellcasting.

zaei
2007-12-08, 12:17 AM
Actually, JPM says that you gain spellcasting as if you had added a level in a class that you belonged to before adding the prestige class level.

This means that it is the specific level with which you gain caster level increase that you choose to add spellcasting.

Humph. That'll teach me to read the entire sentence before correcting someone =]

ocato
2007-12-08, 02:36 AM
Battle bards often do well with a Harmonizing Crystal Echoblade (Magic Item Compendium), magically enhanced to go with you as you gain in levels.

Of course, Arcane Strike (complete warrior) is nice, especially if you are going to have sublime chord spell casting. Trade a spell for a +1 to attack and +1d4 to damage per level of the spell you traded. Battlecaster offensive (complete mage) isn't bad either but you have to eat combat casting to get it. Granted, Combat Casting isn't a horrible choice since you are going to be in the fray and casting anyway. Battlecaster offensive gives you a +1 to sword attacks against a target the round after successfully hitting that target with a spell or +1 to the DC of a spell against a target the round after hitting that target with a sword. Someone already mentioned snowflake wardance (frostburn).

If you are going with the Bard/Warblade etc build and have some feats laying around, you may also like Versatile Performer (complete adventurer) for those 'never leave your lute behind again' moments, and lyric spell (complete adventurer) is nice for trading music uses for extra spells, which might work out well for you. And of course, Melodic Casting (complete mage) lets you use perform instead of concentration and cast spells during a song.

MisterSaturnine
2007-12-08, 03:54 AM
I was definitely eye-ing that Echoblade, and it's actually one of the reasons why I wanted a battlebard in the first place. :smallredface:

Thank you very much, Ocato--I think a lot of what you mentioned is exactly what I'm looking for. I'm probably gonna take 2 levels of Warblade and 8 of Bard, and spend my feats on Dragontouched/Dragonfire Inspiration, Melodic Casting, Arcane Strike, Practiced Spellcaster, and then maybe Martial Study and Extra Spell here and there to pick up a spell I wanted that I missed and to get Maneuvers I want (like Emerald Razor) later.

EDIT: Oh, also, I just wanted to say that your little schtick about the difference between how America got its independence from England and how Canada did had me cracking up. Not sure if you remember what I'm talking about, but it has an honorary place in my Facebook quotes, between the Nietzsche and Leonard Cohen. :smallwink:

ocato
2007-12-08, 04:16 AM
If you are going for Warblade with your bard, may I also suggest Song of the White Raven (tob)? It allows you to use your inspire courage song as a swift action while in a White Raven stance, and also lets you stack warblade and bard levels for inspire courage. Very effective for your hasted full attacks or for those melodic casting super buff rounds (inspire courage and a buff spell in one round). It also may allow you to use more warblade levels, since you don't have to worry about a minimum bard level for an inspire courage. Granted, you mentioned a superior interest in spell casting, so this is probably not up your alley.

Also, thanks for enjoying my little joke. It's easy to feel like your contributions are ignored on forums as large as these.

zaei
2007-12-08, 12:56 PM
I'd probably suggest Skill Focus(Concentration) over Combat Casting, unless Combat Casting is a prereq for something. It's a +3 bonus vs a +4 bonus, but Skill Focus can be used for all concentration checks.

Improved toughness might not be a terrible choice, depending on various factors. Combat Expertise can also be nice.

Extend Spell is good for buffs.

Oh, duh. If you happen to meet the prereqs, Elusive Target is pretty awesome.

ocato
2007-12-08, 01:02 PM
I'd probably suggest Skill Focus(Concentration) over Combat Casting, unless Combat Casting is a prereq for something. It's a +3 bonus vs a +4 bonus, but Skill Focus can be used for all concentration checks.

Improved toughness might not be a terrible choice, depending on various factors. Combat Expertise can also be nice.

Extend Spell is good for buffs.

Oh, duh. If you happen to meet the prereqs, Elusive Target is pretty awesome.

Yes, I only suggested combat casting as a prerequesite for Battlecaster Offensive.

zaei
2007-12-08, 01:10 PM
Yes, I only suggested combat casting as a prerequesite for Battlecaster Offensive.

*fails reading entire sentence check yet again*

JaxGaret
2007-12-08, 01:23 PM
Bard6/LT2/MartialAdept1/JPM1/SC2/JPM8 is a build that I've suggested to people several times before. It's quite good.

MisterSaturnine
2007-12-08, 01:47 PM
Yay for more replies! :smallbiggrin:

As to the Song of the White Raven suggestion--I *knew* I was forgetting something. But wait, it just dawned on me--if I'm only taking two levels of Warblade, and 8 levels in Bard gets me Inspire Courage +2, do I really need it? Are the other effects worth it?

Also, this may be a silly question, but--what does Elusive Target do? And what are the prerequisites?

Now, I think I've got a pretty clear idea of what I want, but I'm not sure what order to go in. I know I'm going to take Warblade for 10th level (so I can get a nice, juicy, high(er) level maneuver), and that I'm only going to take 2 levels of it, but when should I take my 1st Warblade level? What Maneuvers should I take (probably focusing on Diamond Mind/White Raven)? What Stances? And in what order should I take the feats I want (Dragontouched, Dragonfire Inspiration, Melodic Casting, Arcane Strike, Practiced Spellcaster, and Lyric Spell)? Should I even take Practiced Spellcaster if I'm only losing 2 Bard levels, and I'm going into Sublime Chord?

BardicDuelist
2007-12-08, 02:03 PM
Yay for more replies! :smallbiggrin:

As to the Song of the White Raven suggestion--I *knew* I was forgetting something. But wait, it just dawned on me--if I'm only taking two levels of Warblade, and 8 levels in Bard gets me Inspire Courage +2, do I really need it? Are the other effects worth it?

Also, this may be a silly question, but--what does Elusive Target do? And what are the prerequisites?

Now, I think I've got a pretty clear idea of what I want, but I'm not sure what order to go in. I know I'm going to take Warblade for 10th level (so I can get a nice, juicy, high(er) level maneuver), and that I'm only going to take 2 levels of it, but when should I take my 1st Warblade level? What Maneuvers should I take (probably focusing on Diamond Mind/White Raven)? What Stances? And in what order should I take the feats I want (Dragontouched, Dragonfire Inspiration, Melodic Casting, Arcane Strike, Practiced Spellcaster, and Lyric Spell)? Should I even take Practiced Spellcaster if I'm only losing 2 Bard levels, and I'm going into Sublime Chord?

Well, if you want two martial adept levels, I would go bard 7 (why are you going 8?), then warblade two, then JPM. Otherwise, going JPM will make you lose a caster level in SC. PA doesn't seem worth it to me, but SoWR will be since, optimally, you won't get to bard 8.

BardicDuelist
2007-12-08, 02:04 PM
Yay for more replies! :smallbiggrin:

As to the Song of the White Raven suggestion--I *knew* I was forgetting something. But wait, it just dawned on me--if I'm only taking two levels of Warblade, and 8 levels in Bard gets me Inspire Courage +2, do I really need it? Are the other effects worth it?

Also, this may be a silly question, but--what does Elusive Target do? And what are the prerequisites?

Now, I think I've got a pretty clear idea of what I want, but I'm not sure what order to go in. I know I'm going to take Warblade for 10th level (so I can get a nice, juicy, high(er) level maneuver), and that I'm only going to take 2 levels of it, but when should I take my 1st Warblade level? What Maneuvers should I take (probably focusing on Diamond Mind/White Raven)? What Stances? And in what order should I take the feats I want (Dragontouched, Dragonfire Inspiration, Melodic Casting, Arcane Strike, Practiced Spellcaster, and Lyric Spell)? Should I even take Practiced Spellcaster if I'm only losing 2 Bard levels, and I'm going into Sublime Chord?

Well, if you want two martial adept levels, I would go bard 7 (why are you going 8?), then warblade two, then JPM. Otherwise, going JPM will make you lose a caster level in SC. PA doesn't seem worth it to me, but SoWR will be since, optimally, you won't get to bard 8.

Now, if you don't want to go JPM, then your strategy works well.

MisterSaturnine
2007-12-08, 04:32 PM
I wasn't really planning on Jade Phoenix Mage, but thank you for the advice. Also, I was going Bard 8 for the Inspire Courage +2, but if it's really worth spending a feat on, I could also go Bard 7/Warblade 3 and take Song of the White Raven, which I think is what I'll probably do. What do you think of this skeletal build up to 10th?


1st level: Bard
Feats: Dragontouched, Dragonfire Inspiration
Spells: Prestidigitation, Mage Hand, Ghost Sound, Detect Magic

2nd level: Warblade
Maneuvers: Sapphire NM Blade, Leading the Attack, ? (Steel Wind? Steely Strike? Moment of Perfect Mind? Douse the Flames?)
Stance: Punishing Stance

3rd level: Bard
Feats: Song of the White Raven
Spells: Light, Charm Person, Disguise Self

4th level: Bard
Spells: Grease

5th level: Warblade
Maneuvers: Emerald Razor

6th level: Bard
Feats: Arcane Strike
Spells: Glitterdust, Mirror Image

7th level: Bard
Spells: Hideous Laughter, Blur

8th level: Bard

9th level: Bard
Feats: Lyric Spell or Melodic Casting (taking the other at 12th)
Spells: Hold Person, Displacement, Major Image? Glibness? Haste?

10th level: Warblade
Maneuvers: ? Lion's Roar? White Raven Tactics? Insightful Strike? Mind Over Body? Exorcism of Steel? Iron Heart Surge?

Reel On, Love
2007-12-08, 05:21 PM
I wasn't really planning on Jade Phoenix Mage, but thank you for the advice. Also, I was going Bard 8 for the Inspire Courage +2, but if it's really worth spending a feat on, I could also go Bard 7/Warblade 3 and take Song of the White Raven, which I think is what I'll probably do. What do you think of this skeletal build up to 10th?


1st level: Bard
Feats: Dragontouched, Dragonfire Inspiration
Spells: Prestidigitation, Mage Hand, Ghost Sound, Detect Magic

2nd level: Warblade
Maneuvers: Sapphire NM Blade, Leading the Attack, ? (Steel Wind? Steely Strike? Moment of Perfect Mind? Douse the Flames?)
Stance: Punishing Stance

3rd level: Bard
Feats: Song of the White Raven
Spells: Light, Charm Person, Disguise Self

4th level: Bard
Spells: Grease

5th level: Warblade
Maneuvers: Emerald Razor

6th level: Bard
Feats: Arcane Strike
Spells: Glitterdust, Mirror Image

7th level: Bard
Spells: Hideous Laughter, Blur

8th level: Bard

9th level: Bard
Feats: Lyric Spell or Melodic Casting (taking the other at 12th)
Spells: Hold Person, Displacement, Major Image? Glibness? Haste?

10th level: Warblade
Maneuvers: ? Lion's Roar? White Raven Tactics? Insightful Strike? Mind Over Body? Exorcism of Steel? Iron Heart Surge?

If you're going Bard 7/Warblade 3 you might as well go Bard 8; your Initiator Level will be the same.

If you're entering Jade Phoenix Mage, you want to have Cruaser as your Initiator class, not Warblade. JPM only gives Devoted Spirit and Desert Wind maneuvers, and Devoted Spirit is much better.

A build that looks something like Bard 4/Crusader 2/JPM 4/Sublime Chord 2/JPM +6/Abjurant Champion 2 is solid. Alternatively, you could settle for Abjurant Champion, 1 level of Spellsword, 1 more level of JPM, etc. after Sublime Chord in order to avoid losing caster levels.

If you just want to stay a straight Sublime Chord, focus on bardic music and casting; Bard 8/Lyric Thaumaturge (CMage) 2 is a better entry than bard 10.



Here's the thing with Inspire Courage: +1 barely even counts. +2... well, still, it's lackluster. You might as well not focus on it. If you want to focus on it, that means investing into it: you want feats like Song of the Heart and Words of Creation, plus the spell "Inspirational Boost" (which, as a swift action, adds +1 AB/damage to your Inspire Courage).

The thing is, Song of the White Raven makes Inspire Courage a swift action--which means that you can't use Inspirational Boost with it.


You have two options: focus on music + casting (you'll end up with +6-ish Inspire Courage and not lose any CLs), or focus on combat + casting (you'll need to forget about Inspire Courage- a lot of your spells with be buff-type, also).

MisterSaturnine
2007-12-08, 08:22 PM
The thing is, I have Dragonfire Inspiration in there, which turns the +2 Inspire Courage into +2d6 fire damage. Also, I'm not interested in going into JPM, Devoted Spirit/being a Crusader in general, really doesn't fit the character, and the whole point was to focus on spells and music, but be able to fight in melee with some degree of competency, hence the Warblade levels. I think I'm fairly satisfied with the build, but still have a choice to make--basically, a choice between a spell or a maneuver (I think I'm going to skip on SotWR--afterall, I'll only really have one stance, and it's not White Raven). If I go with Bard 8/Warblade 2, then I get one extra 3rd level spell and no 3rd level maneuver, which I think is OK since I kind figure out which one I want anyway. If I went Bard 7/Warblade 3, I'd get some extra HP and that maneuver. I think I'm going to go with the former, and go with something like:

1st: Dragontouched, Dragonfire Inspiration
3rd: Lyric Spell
6th: Melodic Casting
9th: Arcane Strike

ocato
2007-12-08, 08:28 PM
take melodic casting before lyric spell.

MisterSaturnine
2007-12-08, 08:35 PM
Righty-o. By the way, what are the prerequisites for the both of them? Melodic Casting and Lyric Spell, I mean.

tyckspoon
2007-12-08, 08:41 PM
9 Perform ranks and 2nd level spells for Lyric, 4 Perform and 4 Spellcraft for Melodic.

Reel On, Love
2007-12-08, 09:47 PM
The thing is, I have Dragonfire Inspiration in there, which turns the +2 Inspire Courage into +2d6 fire damage. Also, I'm not interested in going into JPM, Devoted Spirit/being a Crusader in general, really doesn't fit the character, and the whole point was to focus on spells and music, but be able to fight in melee with some degree of competency, hence the Warblade levels. I think I'm fairly satisfied with the build, but still have a choice to make--basically, a choice between a spell or a maneuver (I think I'm going to skip on SotWR--afterall, I'll only really have one stance, and it's not White Raven). If I go with Bard 8/Warblade 2, then I get one extra 3rd level spell and no 3rd level maneuver, which I think is OK since I kind figure out which one I want anyway. If I went Bard 7/Warblade 3, I'd get some extra HP and that maneuver. I think I'm going to go with the former, and go with something like:

1st: Dragontouched, Dragonfire Inspiration
3rd: Lyric Spell
6th: Melodic Casting
9th: Arcane Strike

Well, you're passing up the best way to make a sublime chord melee-effective, but.

-Skip Lyric Spell. It's for pure-caster bards, and it chews threw Bardic Music uses (pure-caster bards can afford an Extra Music or two). Instead, pick up the fabulous Snowflake Wardance from Frostburn--it lets you give up a Bardic Music use to get CHA to AB with a one-handed weapon for a number of rounds equal to your Perform(Dance) ranks.
--You can use this to get a small boost to hit... or better yet, you could neglect your Strength (or neglect DEX and avoid taking Weapon Finesse) and pump Charisma, using it for AB and Dragonfire Inspiration for damage, combined with Arcane Strike.

-Be a Silverbrow Human (Dragon Magic). You lose the bonus skill points for being human, but you free up a feat (since Silverbrow Humans automatically have the Dragontouched subtype). This in turn lets you, for example, take Draconic Heritage and pick a dragon type in order to get Dragonfire Inspiration to do non-fire damage (seeing as how fire damage, well, blows). You can pick up electricity or acid... or best of all, pick a non-core dragon like the Emerald (MM2) or Battle or Howling Dragon (Draconomicon), which would turn your Dragonfire Inspiration to sonic damage. Well worth the feat.

--Be careful of assuming you'll throw out Dragonfire Inspiration, then buff up, then fight. Dragonfire Inspiration is a round. Each buff is yet another round. Just how many can you spare? If you want to be melee-capable, you should really take no more than one round (plus swift actions, which you can do: Bladeweave, Wraithstrike, etc) to buff up. For you, that's Dragonfire Inspiration.

--While we're at it, you should really, really try to fit in Song of the Heart and Words of Creation, since they'd take your Inspire Courage from +2 (+3 with Inspirational Boost) to +5 (+6 with Inspirational Boost)... or rather, six instead of three extra damage dice with Dragonfire Inspiration.

So, try this:
Bard 8/Warblade 2/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion 5/whatever, odds are your game won't get this far:

Silverbrow Human
H: Draconic Heritage
1: Melodic Casting
3: Snowflake Wardance
6: Dragonfire Inspiration
9: Arcane Strike or Words of Creation
12: Combat Casting (for Abjurant Champion)
15: whichever of Arcane Strike and Words of Creation you didn't take.

Song of the Heart says you can give up a bardic music ability to get it for free--since you want to spellcast and melee, give up Suggestion (you're focusing on spellcasting and melee, and you can't give up the sucktastic Inspire Competence since Song of the Heart requires it). Coupled with the Inspirational Boost spell, this gives you 4d6 from Dragonfire Inspiration.
That's a lot of investment for four dice of bonus damage, but it *does* apply to everyone. If you'd be willing to settle for regular Inspire Courage, you wouldn't need Draconic Heritage *or* Meldoci Casting; you could pick up both Words of Creation and Power Attack and use a two-handed weapon. Not only would this give you +6 AB/Damage instead of +4d6 sonic damage, but you can power attack that into 12 damage: that's only 2 less than 4d6's average of 14. Your allies with two-handed weapons will be able to power attack that into 18 (or keep some of the AB bonus).

Spells to pick up as a bard:
-For level 1: Inspirational Boost (SpC, to up Inspire Courage), Cure Light Wounds (for wands), Grease, Improvisation (SpC, absolutely great)
-For level 2: Alter Self (as good as ever), Glibness, Bladeweave (SpC), Whirling Blade (SpC; you can combine it with things like Wraithstrike and Arcane Strike, and Snowflake Wardance and/or Power Attack as well.
-For level 3: Ray of Dizziness (SpC, no save), Haste

As a Sublime Chord:
-For level 4: Greater Mirror Image (PHB II, immediate action), Voice of the Dragon (+10 Bluff/Diplomacy/Intimidate, expend for Suggestion), Sirine's Grace (SpC, buff--CHA as deflection bonus to AC ), Ruin Delver's Fortune (SpC; CHA to a save of your choice plus another minor benefit, immediate-action casting). Alternatively, work Wraithstrike in here--it's that good.
-For level 5: Greater Blink (ridiculously good defensive spell), Greater Dispel Magic, Dragonsight, stuff.
-For level 6: Superior Resistance, Bite of the Weretiger, stuff.

And so on.

Don't expect to kick but for the first few levels, whatever you do. Unless you take Bard 1 or 2/Warblade 2, but then you're giving up higher level maneuvers... so don't do it.

Speaking of which, taking Warblade 1 and 2 at level 9 and 10:
-Warblade 1: Wall of Blades (IH 2), Iron Heart Surge (IH 3), Moment of Perfect Mind (DM 1); Bolstering Voice stance (WR 1)
-Warblade 2: White Raven Tactics (WR 3; the stance lets you qualify).
Use a Ring of the Diamond Mind to pick up Mind Over Body. Remember that the Heroics spell (take it instead of Glibness, I guess?) can be used to take Martial Study, too, so you could get it that way.

Edit: Rods of Extend Spell are your friend, especially the Lesser ones (3k)--Alter Self and Glibness are obvious targets. A lesser Rod of Sculpt Spell is also 3k, and turns Whirling Blade into an area attack better than a line.