Does a cloistered cleric dip make sense on a Focused Specialist Wizard?

[incog64]

With a quick dip, I can get the magic domain (access to all schools via scrolls, wands, etc) and other cleric goodness?

Thoughts?

Thanks in advance

[Fero]

With a quick dip, I can get the magic domain (access to all schools via scrolls, wands, etc) and other cleric goodness?

Thoughts?

Thanks in advance

Most people will probably say that you should never sacrifice a caster level in your primary casting class. I personally don't agree with that sentiment and think a dip can be worthwhile if it will have a significant impact through your adventuring career. That said, I am not sure the Magic Domain, at least in isolation, meets that burden, as you are limited to 1st level spells. What other things are you thinking of grabbing and what is your overall build?

[incog64]

Most people will probably say that you should never sacrifice a caster level in your primary casting class. I personally don't agree with that sentiment and think a dip can be worthwhile if it will have a significant impact through your adventuring career. That said, I am not sure the Magic Domain, at least in isolation, meets that burden, as you are limited to 1st level spells. What other things are you thinking of grabbing and what is your overall build?

I am more interested in the granted power as I will have access to all schools through scrolls etc.

Granted Power: Use scrolls, wands, and other devices with spell completion or spell trigger activation as a wizard of one-half your cleric level (at least 1st level). For the purpose of using a scroll or other magic device, if you are also a wizard, actual wizard levels and these effective wizard levels stack.

Kind of open to the other two domains.

[RandomPeasant]

If you want access to all schools, just don't be a Focused Specialist. As a FS Wizard 9/Cleric 1, you'll get 6/6/6/5/4/3 spells per day, while as a Domain Specialist Wizard 10 you'll get 5/5/5/4/4/3. That's nearly as many spells with substantially more flexibility in what you prepare (which I would expect to be important to you if you think banned-school scrolls are worth giving up casting for). Even Elf Generalist gets you as many top-level spells as delayed progression Focused Specialist.

[Fero]

I am more interested in the granted power as I will have access to all schools through scrolls etc.

Granted Power: Use scrolls, wands, and other devices with spell completion or spell trigger activation as a wizard of one-half your cleric level (at least 1st level). For the purpose of using a scroll or other magic device, if you are also a wizard, actual wizard levels and these effective wizard levels stack.

Kind of open to the other two domains.

That is clever. I suspect many DMs would limit the stacking to the schools you have, but it seems to work RaW. Still, I think it is worth pinning what else you plan to grab. Of course, you could just go Southern Magician/DMM and call it a day. You can also use the Cleric level to qualify for Dweomorkeeper, easily one if the top 10 Wizard PrCs.

[Zarvistic]

If it's mostly about the domain, there's the acf from Complete champion called Domain granted power you could use instead.

[Vizzerdrix]

A CC dip is like the cherry on a Sunday. It isn't needed, but it always makes things better.

[Rebel7284]

In general, even with the reading that Wizard levels stack for banned schools, it's still not terribly amazing. High level spells are among some of the most powerful effects in the game and getting access to them as early as possible is typically considered one of the top priorities for a caster.
You can also replicate this effect in a number of ways without losing casting progression.
- Several prestige classes have UMD as a class skill
- Domain Granted Power ACF has been mentioned
- Planar Touchstone -> Catalogues of Enlightenment -> Domain
- Apprentice [Spellcaster] gives you UMD as well
- Any class that grants a domain + Substitute Domain spell

or really... just don't ban Conjuration and you can eventually get any spell in the game with the right Summoning/Calling spell.

[Kurald Galain]

I am more interested in the granted power as I will have access to all schools through scrolls etc.

The ability to use scrolls of your banned school is really not worth a loss of caster level. If you want fewer banned schools, just don't play a focused specialist.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Thoughts?

Dipping Cleric can be worthwhile and a wizard can generally afford to lose 1 level of progression (it still hurts, but dropping to sorcerer progression isn't exactly a death sentence).
That said it's not worth it for the Magic domain. It wouldn't even be worth it for the Magic domain if you didn't already have the ability to use most wizards scrolls from being a wizard.

If you want to do it anyway i'd try to maximize what you get out of it. If you're dipping cleric anyway think about going into Dweomerkeeper (which also requires the Magic domain) to actually get more out of the level than an ability that will at best come up once every session or two (if it'd come up more don't ban those schools).

Otherwise i'd just put points in UMD instead (you can get it as a class skill with the Apprentice feat) and just have your familiar use the scrolls from schools you've banned.
Not only does it save you a level, UMD also has plenty of other uses.

All that is assuming no one else in the party has UMD or the ability to use scrolls at least.
Unless you're a scroll specialist you won't get more than utility out of scrolls anyway because of minimum CL & DC so it doesn't really matter who uses them, just that someone in the party has the ability. And more than one person having it adds very little, so if your party already has someone i'd just drop it entirely.

[incog64]

Dipping Cleric can be worthwhile and a wizard can generally afford to lose 1 level of progression (it still hurts, but dropping to sorcerer progression isn't exactly a death sentence).
That said it's not worth it for the Magic domain. It wouldn't even be worth it for the Magic domain if you didn't already have the ability to use most wizards scrolls from being a wizard.

If you want to do it anyway i'd try to maximize what you get out of it. If you're dipping cleric anyway think about going into Dweomerkeeper (which also requires the Magic domain) to actually get more out of the level than an ability that will at best come up once every session or two (if it'd come up more don't ban those schools).

Otherwise i'd just put points in UMD instead (you can get it as a class skill with the Apprentice feat) and just have your familiar use the scrolls from schools you've banned.
Not only does it save you a level, UMD also has plenty of other uses.

All that is assuming no one else in the party has UMD or the ability to use scrolls at least.
Unless you're a scroll specialist you won't get more than utility out of scrolls anyway because of minimum CL & DC so it doesn't really matter who uses them, just that someone in the party has the ability. And more than one person having it adds very little, so if your party already has someone i'd just drop it entirely.

Its not just scrolls.

Use scrolls, wands, and other devices with spell completion or spell trigger activation as a wizard of one-half your cleric level (at least 1st level). For the purpose of using a scroll or other magic device, if you are also a wizard, actual wizard levels and these effective wizard levels stack.

[incog64]

The ability to use scrolls of your banned school is really not worth a loss of caster level. If you want fewer banned schools, just don't play a focused specialist.

I talk to my dm but as I read it the magic domain would give me access to all schools.

[Kurald Galain]

Its not just scrolls.
Yes, we get that. It's still pretty rare (and/or expensive) that you'll find any of that that can't already be used by you-without-the-dip NOR by anyone else in the party.


I talk to my dm but as I read it the magic domain would give me access to all schools.
I mention "scrolls of your banned school" because any wizard can already use "scrolls of your NON-banned school".

[incog64]

If you want access to all schools, just don't be a Focused Specialist. As a FS Wizard 9/Cleric 1, you'll get 6/6/6/5/4/3 spells per day, while as a Domain Specialist Wizard 10 you'll get 5/5/5/4/4/3. That's nearly as many spells with substantially more flexibility in what you prepare (which I would expect to be important to you if you think banned-school scrolls are worth giving up casting for). Even Elf Generalist gets you as many top-level spells as delayed progression Focused Specialist.

Domain specialist is a banned in my game.

I like Elf Generalist but you can get into Prestige Classes faster with Specialist Wizard from what I can determine. If I am wrong please correct me.

[Rebel7284]

you can get into Prestige Classes faster with Specialist Wizard from what I can determine. If I am wrong please correct me.

I mean, you can get into Master Specialist I guess (which is an alright class, but nothing groundbreaking), but otherwise, I am confused about this part. Each prestige class has its own requirements and VERY few of them care if you specialize.

[RandomPeasant]

I like Elf Generalist but you can get into Prestige Classes faster with Specialist Wizard from what I can determine. If I am wrong please correct me.

I have no idea how Specialist Wizard would qualify you for PrCs more quickly, unless you mean specifically Master Specialist, in which case that's only one additional PrC level after adjusting for the lost casting, and I would say probably not worth it. Wizard 5/PrCs 15 is a fine build, and you even get an additional bonus feat compared to Master Specialist, or Spontaneous Divination.

You could also be a regular specialist Diviner, which would get you the extra spells at the cost of only one school (probably Evocation), which you should be able to ban without too much discomfort.

[spectralphoenix]

If your goal is to get into a wizard prestige class quickly, dipping into another class is pretty much counterproductive to that. And if we're talking about Master Specialist specifically, it takes a couple levels to get to the juicy stuff anyway.

A Wizard 5 gets 3rd level spells and a wizard bonus feat. A Wiz3/Clr1/MstrSpc1 gets 2nd level spells and... Skill Focus.

[Gruftzwerg]

I am more interested in the granted power as I will have access to all schools through scrolls etc.

Granted Power: Use scrolls, wands, and other devices with spell completion or spell trigger activation as a wizard of one-half your cleric level (at least 1st level). For the purpose of using a scroll or other magic device, if you are also a wizard, actual wizard levels and these effective wizard levels stack.

Kind of open to the other two domains.

If it's that what you want, why not go for UMD?

Go human paragon to get UMD as class skill for all classes. And if you take all 3 lvls you get a free feat and +2 to an ability score (and 2/3 lvls of spell progression).

[Gruftzwerg]

I am more interested in the granted power as I will have access to all schools through scrolls etc.

Granted Power: Use scrolls, wands, and other devices with spell completion or spell trigger activation as a wizard of one-half your cleric level (at least 1st level). For the purpose of using a scroll or other magic device, if you are also a wizard, actual wizard levels and these effective wizard levels stack.

Kind of open to the other two domains.

If it's that what you want, why not go for UMD?

Go human paragon to get UMD as class skill for all classes. And if you take all 3 lvls you get a free feat and +2 to an ability score (and 2/3 lvls of spell progression).

A bit weaker on the learly lvls, but stronger in the long run.

[Maat Mons]

I guess you could take the Arcane Schooling feat, from Player’s Guide to Faerun. That would let you activate wands and staves as if you had one level in Sorcerer. It doesn’t let you activate scrolls, which is a major deficiency relative to Planar Touchstone. But you can take Arcane Schooling five levels before you could take Planar Touchstone, which I guess counts for something.

But really, that Wizard ACF from Complete Champion seems like it has you covered.

[Darg]

The ability to use items as a wizard seems less specific than "you are prohibited from these specific schools." Of course, I'm not the DM here, but I don't even allow multiclassing to bypass this limitation. Though I do allow the specialization slots to be shared between classes.

[Curbludgeon]

An arcane Dweomerkeeper Conjurer could get Scribe Scroll from the Rune domain while switching out the other copy for Augment Summoning, or other specialties could do so for a fighter feat such as Improved Initiative.

[ixrisor]

The ability to use items as a wizard seems less specific than "you are prohibited from these specific schools." Of course, I'm not the DM here, but I don't even allow multiclassing to bypass this limitation. Though I do allow the specialization slots to be shared between classes.

“A specialist wizard pays for an increased affinity for the spells of his chosen school by selecting two prohibited schools whose spells are forever denied to him. One way around at least part of this restriction is for a specialist wizard to take levels in sorcerer, using her sorcerer spellcasting ability to master the spells and magic items she cannot use as a wizard” - complete arcane, multiclass specialists and prohibited schools, page 185

Of course you can choose to run it however you like, but the default is that specialisation only applies to the wizard part of your character.

[Darg]

Interesting. Thanks for pointing that out. I still like having prohibitions not be so easily overturned, but having RAW helps.