Next Damage Die Up From 1d12?

[Polyphemus]

Bit of a niche issue, but if the 2024 PHB Monk maintains the Martial Arts damage dice increase I saw in the most recent play test, there is a Monk subclass out of Keith Baker’s Exploring Eberron book where a Martial Arts damage dice bump from the 2014 Monk base is kind of one of that subclass’s selling points. So, even knowing my character who uses this subclass probably isn’t going to get so high a level as for this to be a relevant worry, for the sake of my OCD I’m trying to figure out what the best damage die to step up to at higher level Martial Arts dice from a d12 would be.

3d6? 2d8? I’ve seen elsewhere people suggest 2d6, and while I can see that being a bump in average damage in the long run, it *feels* like a bit of a lateral move, comparatively.

[JNAProductions]

1d12+1 is probably the easiest way to do it.
Alternatively, if you're playing digitally, 1d14.

[Kane0]

1d12 is almost 2d6 so the next step up would be 2d8 id say

[Inglorin]

1d12+1 is probably the easiest way to do it.
Alternatively, if you're playing digitally, 1d14.

Well, it IS obviously the D14 (and then the D16) from a DCC Dice Set. Unfortunately ever in that Dice Set there is no D18.

[JackPhoenix]

Average damage for d12 is 6.5.
For 2d6, it's 7, which is too little.
Using d8+d6 would give you 8, a bit more increase over the usual +1 damage form dice size increase, and you'd be rolling two differently-sized dice.
For 2d8, it's 9, which is a larger step than may be desired, if not necessarily overpowered.
3d6 is even larger increase, up to 11.5.
If you want the increase in dice size to result in +1 average damage, go for 3d4, that averages out to 7.5.

[Chronos]

If we're including larger "damage dice" at all, then we might not even be using the d12. It might be that the next step up from d10 (or maybe even from d8) is 2d6, which leads more naturally into 2d8, and then just increasing numbers of d6.

In 3.5, the monk damage progression was 1d6, 1d8, 1d10, 2d6, 2d8, 2d10 for a Medium monk, or 1d8, 2d6, 2d8, 3d6, 3d8, 4d8 for a Large monk (this is consistent with the rules for increasing monster natural weapon damage with size).

[Hytheter]

I'd just keep the same progression and change the feature to be a flat +1 to damage rolls. It can be kind of annoying having your unarmed damage dice be different from your martial arts dice anyway.

[Chronos]

So far as I know, "martial arts damage die" and "unarmed damage die" are basically synonymous, since you use your Martial Arts die in place of your unarmed 1 damage, or in place of the damage of a monk weapon if it's better.

[Wraith]

I've played in other RPG systems where the next dice up from 1d12 would be 1d12+1d4. That way it allows a sensible progression even further should the need arise, going +d6, +d8, etc, without needing custom dice of unusual facings.

[KorvinStarmast]

Well, it IS obviously the D14 (and then the D16) from a DCC Dice Set. Unfortunately ever in that Dice Set there is no D18.
To roll 1d18 requires two different colored d6. I'll call them Silver and Gold. One indicates the result range, the other the final result.
Silver............................Gold
1-2 (+0 to the gold)........1-6
3-4 (+6 to the gold).......7-12
5-6 (+12 to the gold) .....13-19

[Chronos]

Or just a d20 and reroll all 19s and 20s.

[DammitVictor]

3d6? 2d8? I’ve seen elsewhere people suggest 2d6, and while I can see that being a bump in average damage in the long run, it *feels* like a bit of a lateral move, comparatively.

I would say that d10 bumps to 2d6, and that d12 and 2d6 bump to 2d8, then 2d10 and 2d12 and then your model's going to get screwy no matter which way you go with it.

[Hytheter]

So far as I know, "martial arts damage die" and "unarmed damage die" are basically synonymous, since you use your Martial Arts die in place of your unarmed 1 damage, or in place of the damage of a monk weapon if it's better.

In the normal case, yes. In the case of the specific subclass that is the subject of this thread, no.


Fist of Bone and Steel

At 3rd level, when you choose this tradition, your Martial Arts damage die increases for unarmed strikes. You can roll a d6 in place of the normal damage for your unarmed strike. This die changes to a d8 at 5th level; a d10 at 11th level; and a d12 at 17th level. This increased damage can only be applied to an unarmed strike, and not to a monk weapon.

It's not made explicit but I also read this as not applying to other uses of your MA dice, such as with the Dragonhide Belt.

[JNAProductions]

In the normal case, yes. In the case of the specific subclass that is the subject of this thread, no.

It's not made explicit but I also read this as not applying to other uses of your MA dice, such as with the Dragonhide Belt.

I mean, by RAW of that brew, you still get d6 for unarmed strikes. And then d8 at 5th, d10 at 11th, and d12 at 17th.

Honestly, though speaking without having seen the entire subclass, admittedly; that's a real boring feature. It's +1 average damage per unarmed strike. That's all it is. Not useless, for sure, but really dull. If they're supposed to specialize in unarmed strikes even moreso than other Monks, I'd want something more active and/or cool to represent that.

[Hytheter]

I mean, by RAW of that brew, you still get d6 for unarmed strikes. And then d8 at 5th, d10 at 11th, and d12 at 17th.

Yes? I don't believe that was ever in question. OP is merely seeking a way to maintain this selling point of the subclass now that larger dice sizes are becoming default.


Honestly, though speaking without having seen the entire subclass, admittedly; that's a real boring feature. It's +1 average damage per unarmed strike. That's all it is. Not useless, for sure, but really dull. If they're supposed to specialize in unarmed strikes even moreso than other Monks, I'd want something more active and/or cool to represent that.

They also get some other benefits at the same level, which includes options like increasing the reach of your unarmed strikes or inflicting debuffs. You can also change the damage type between BPS at will. Whether these features are sufficiently compelling is a matter of taste. Personally my feelings are a bit mixed.


Martial Discipline

Starting at 3rd level, when you adopt this tradition, choose a discipline and gain its feature.

Forged Heart.

Your unarmed strikes are considered adamantine weapons. In addition, when you hit a creature with an unarmed attack, you can spend 1 ki point to cause it to make a Strength saving throw. On a failed save, the creature takes 2d6 additional damage of the same type as the unarmed strike and can be pushed up to 15 feet away from you. On a successful save, the creature only takes 1d6 points of additional damage and is not pushed back.

Nightmare Shroud.

When you hit a creature with an unarmed attack, you can spend 1 ki point to assail it with fear, causing it to make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, it takes 1d6 points of psychic damage and becomes frightened of you until the end of your next turn. If a creature succeeds on this save, they are immune to the fear effect of this ability for 24 hours.

Traveler's Blade.

Your reach extends by 5 feet. Additionally, at the start of your turn you can expend up to 4 ki points to extend your reach further. For every point of ki you spend, your reach extends by an additional 5 feet until the end of your turn.
Weretouched.

Once per turn, when you hit a creature with an unarmed attack, you can spend 1 ki point to rend your target and inflict deep bleeding wounds. At the start of each of the creature's turns for the next minute, it takes 1d4 points of slashing damage from this effect. The effect ends early if the creature has one or more hit points restored, if any creature uses its action to expend one use of a healer's kit, or makes a successful Wisdom (Medicine) check with a DC equal to your ki save DC.

When you reach 6th level, this slashing damage counts as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage.

Mutable Strike ExE

You have the power to alter your natural weapons, growing claws or reinforcing your fists. Starting at 3rd level, when you use Martial Arts to make an unarmed strike, you can choose whether you inflict slashing, bludgeoning, or piercing damage with the attack.

[Arkhios]

2d8, hands down.

1d12 (min 1, avg 6.5, max 12) is more or less equal with 2d6 (min 2, avg 7, max 12), with 2d6 average being only 0.5 higher than the 1d12 average.

2d8 (min 2, avg 9, max 16) provides the second lowest range with as few (standardized) dice as possible while also having higher average and maximum value than the 1d12/2d6 would have.

Also, this is consistent with 3.5 Monk/Monster Natural Attack scaling (as mentioned upthread) which is quite perfect. It's sad that 5e doesn't (IIRC) provide this kind of detail in DMG, where it definitely should be. I understand that 5th edition is not 3.5 and tries to be as easy to run and play as possible, but there's nothing wrong in providing tools like this nonetheless.

[Yakk]

Replace "larger die size" with a different if similar damage mechanic.

You want about +1 damage. Here are a few:

* 1s are replaced with max damage on the die. (+(N-1)/N damage per dN, slightly under 1; +0.75 d4, +0.83 d6, +0.88 d8, +0.9 d10, +0.92 d12).
* Reroll 1s and 2s until you get a higher value. (+1 damage per die)
* Treat all even rolls as max values (+(N-2)/4 damage per die; +0.5 d4, +1 d6, +1.5 d8, +2.0 d10, +2.5 d12) (20% to 40% die damage)
* Treat all odd rolls as max values (+N/4 damage per die; +1 d4, +1.5 d6, +2.0 d8, +2.5 d20, +3.0 d12) (40% to 50% die damage)
* Roll damage dice twice, take the higher value (about a 33% increase in damage die damage: (1+1/n)(2/3 n - 1/6) is about +0.75 d4, +1 d6, +1.3 d8, +1.7 d10, +2 d12 (about 30% die damage boost)
* Just add +1 to damage

Some of these "auto scale" with die sizes to be significant at higher die sizes, some do not.

[clash]

I use the below scaling each listed with it's average damage I could see skipping 2d6 of that's your preference.
1d6 (3.5) 1d8 (4.5) 1d10 (5.5) 1d12 (6.5) 2d6 (7) 2d8 (9) 3d6 (10.5) 2d10(11) 2d12(13) 4d6(14) 3d10(16.5) 5d6(17.5) 4d8(18) 3d12(19.5) 6d6(21) 4d10 (22) 5d8 (22.5) 7d6 (23.5) 4d12 (26) 5d10 (27.5)

[verbatim]

once you get to D12 you could instead make future increases turn your natural weapons into +1, +2, +3 magic weapons.

[sithlordnergal]

Go for d20 damage rolls, then get yourself a Backbiting Spear and throw it to deal 2d20!! >=D

In all honesty, probably just 2d8.

[Clause]

Make this a d20, and see all happynes at monk players arround the world

[Lord Ruby34]

There are rollable d14s. I'd purchase and use one of those.

[Joe the Rat]

I use the below scaling each listed with it's average damage I could see skipping 2d6 of that's your preference.
1d6 (3.5) 1d8 (4.5) 1d10 (5.5) 1d12 (6.5) 2d6 (7) 2d8 (9) 3d6 (10.5) 2d10(11) 2d12(13) 4d6(14) 3d10(16.5) 5d6(17.5) 4d8(18) 3d12(19.5) 6d6(21) 4d10 (22) 5d8 (22.5) 7d6 (23.5) 4d12 (26) 5d10 (27.5)

If you don't go the DCC / advanced sets likeInglorin suggests (Gamescience and Impact! Miniatures both produce sets with 14s and 16s), I would go with the above (skipping the 2d6).