Optimization Things that exist only to be broken [Archive]

Chronos

2023-08-13, 04:29 PM

In any system as large and complicated as D&D, there are inevitably going to be some things that, through no fault of the designers, end up broken, just because nobody can anticipate everything. That's not what this thread is about.

Sometimes, though, there are some things for which there just isn't any non-broken use case. I half suspect that a lot of these, their designers wanted to powergame at their own tables, and so they deliberately snuck OP options past their editors, so they could point to it and say "Look, see, it's in a published book, I'm allowed to do it!". And, honestly, there are a lot of these things.

1: Thought Bottles. Supposedly, their purpose is to restore your XP if you get level drained or raised from the dead. But for level drain, Restoration spells are a lot easier and more effective. And to make use of for Raise Dead, you'd have to have an awfully accurate notion of when you're going to die (you can't just use it routinely, because it still costs XP to use), and if you know that accurately when you're likely to die, you can probably use that knowledge to just, you know, not die. So it's pretty bad for its supposed use cases... but it's excellent for deliberately spending XP, on crafting magic items or casting Wish spells or whatever. Now, all those things that were designed to cost multiple thousands of XPs all cost only 500, for as many of them as you can fit in your level.

2: Tainted Scholar. A spellcasting prestige class, that lets you use your Taint score instead of your Int to cast spells. But the drawback is that, once your taint gets too high, you die or go insane. And another effect of the class is that casting your spells now itself causes you to gain Taint. As-is, this class would only be a power upgrade for a window of a few days, between when your Taint was higher than your Int, and when you ceased to be a PC. Except... fiends and undead are immune to the negative effects of Taint, so if you're an undead wizard, there's no longer any drawback, and you can just deliberately skyrocket your Taint, until you have so many spell slots that you can cast one every six seconds and your DC is so high that even gods only succeed on a 20.

3: Festering Anger. It's a disease that deals 2 Con damage per day, but also causes your Str to increase by 2 points per day. This is often mentioned in combination with the Cancer Mage prestige class, in the same book, that ignores the negative effects (but not any benefits) of disease, as a way of getting a ludicrous Str score just by waiting. But you don't even need Cancer Mage to break it: There are a lot of ways to heal or ignore Con damage. Even just in Core, there's Lesser Restoration, meaning it's free Str for anyone who can afford one spell slot per day. Heck, just natural bed rest will, on average, keep up with 2 points per day, so even without spells you can sleep it off until the random walk of your Con gets lower than you'd like, and still get a huge Str bonus.

4: The Planar Familiar spell. It's from one of the web articles, and my wayback-fu isn't strong enough to find it, but it's an instantaneous (hence non-dispellable) spell that gives your familiar, animal companion, mount, or other bonded creature the Celestial, Fiendish, Axiomatic, or Anarchic template. The catch is that it can only be used on your bonded creature, and it's only on the cleric list, the one casting class without a companion. So just what is the intended use case, here? The real use case, of course, is that every single non-cleric caster is going to UMD a scroll or Limited Wish or something and get a free upgrade. What moves this one even further into the "snuck one past the designers" category is that you'd think that all four alignment options are equivalent... but the Axiomatic and Anarchic templates are significantly more powerful than Celestial or Fiendish. In particular, Axiomatic lets both you and your familiar use whichever initiative score is higher.

5: Sarrukhs. What the heck do you expect to happen, when you publish something that has an ability to give a creature any ability? Sure, it took some time to find the quickest route to Pun-Pun, but it's not like PCs getting their hands on monster abilities is anything new.

Anyone think of any others?

Inevitability

2023-08-13, 04:50 PM

Fero

2023-08-13, 05:08 PM

Shalantha's Delicate Disk.

Any of the Tainted spellcasters.

AvatarVecna

2023-08-13, 06:36 PM

Crake

2023-08-13, 09:05 PM

Regarding tainted scholar: fiends and undead have set taint scores, and do not accrue more. It only is broken if you allow them to accrue more infinitely, which makes no sense why they would give them a set score, instead of saying they have a minimum

NontheistCleric

2023-08-14, 12:43 AM

RNightstalker

2023-08-14, 04:25 AM

Persistent Spell: spells designed to last only one round or 1 round/level now last all day.

Chronos

2023-08-14, 06:23 AM

Lion barbarians getting Pounce with a one-level dip is maybe more powerful than what most martial classes get, but I think that mostly indicates that other martial abilities tend to be underpowered. I'm not sure that qualifies.

Nor am I sure about Persist Spell. It can be used by increasing the spell slot level, in which case it's not broken. Maybe not worth taking the feat for, but the use case exists. It only gets broken when you include metamagic cost reducers/replacements.

What's Shalantha's Delicate Disk?

RNightstalker

2023-08-14, 07:48 AM

Nor am I sure about Persist Spell. It can be used by increasing the spell slot level, in which case it's not broken. Maybe not worth taking the feat for, but the use case exists. It only gets broken when you include metamagic cost reducers/replacements.

You have a point. Then maybe the metamagic cost reducers/replacements are what's broken. Now that I'm on that line of thought, maybe metamagic feats themselves are what's broken.

Gruftzwerg

2023-08-14, 08:23 AM

Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian. As a lvl 1 character, lose fast movement in exchange for Pounce. The ability to make a full attack on a charge. I guess you could combine it with whirling frenzy, or TWF? Latter sucks, former only turns on during rage.

Like let's be real, if this was actually designed for barbarian. This would be like the lvl 6 ability of an ACF instead of the lvl 1 ability. It exists purely for other meleers to dip into barbarian for free pounce. That's why it's lvl 1. That's why it's not rage-gated the way a lot of Barbarian ACFs are.
&

Lion barbarians getting Pounce with a one-level dip is maybe more powerful than what most martial classes get, but I think that mostly indicates that other martial abilities tend to be underpowered. I'm not sure that qualifies.

Nor am I sure about Persist Spell. It can be used by increasing the spell slot level, in which case it's not broken. Maybe not worth taking the feat for, but the use case exists. It only gets broken when you include metamagic cost reducers/replacements.

What's Shalantha's Delicate Disk?

While I know that the Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian dip is often used to get pounce, I really have to ask if it is that powerful as most people depict it. Imho it is overrated..^^

1. For Uberchargers: Greater Cleave > Pounce
Since pounce relies on charging in the first place we are talking about an Ubercharger here (because non uberchargers have other options to swift move + full attack). Anything should die within a single blow anyway. Pounce has to deal with lowered BAB while Greater Cleave is executed at full BAB.
Pounce is just the lesser build resource investment (1/20 class level compared to 3/7 feats).

2. For Uberchargers: Whirlwind Attack; Mithral Tornado; Adamantine Hurricane > Pounce
Again, if you kill everything in a single blow, Pounce is the weaker options here. But again, it is easier to get in comprehension.

3. For NON-Uberchargers: Swift Action Movement (swift teleport, Sudden Leap maneuver, Travel Devotion, ...) > Pounce
If you are not an Ubercharger, you probably don't have any charge multipliers. Thus other than the +2 to hit and the restricted movement, it doesn't have that much to offer here. Travel Devotion and other swift movement is way better, even if limited in its daily uses.

I'm not saying that it is bad. Don't get me wrong. But it is definitively overrated. There are better options than Pounce. No matter if you are an Ubercharger or not. It's just that it is very cheap/easy to get and "at-will" what makes it really useful. But for that, you trade up to 5 lvls of early lvl power where your pounce ability does nothing for you. It has its niche imho.

Bucky

2023-08-14, 10:10 AM

tyckspoon

2023-08-14, 10:20 AM

What's Shalantha's Delicate Disk?

A spell that creates an object you can cast another spell into, and cast that spell by breaking the object. Kind of like Glyph of Warding, but with no real restrictions on what sort of spell you can put into it and a more flexible activation mechanism. It allows you to convert downtime resources into active situation resources, transfer Personal spells to other users, and if you're careful about it build Book of Exploding Runes-style stacks of spell-bombs. Has a modest GP cost but it's much cheaper and more flexible than buying or crafting scrolls or potions, which are the items that are actually designed for that kind of purpose.

Fero

2023-08-14, 11:33 AM

A spell that creates an object you can cast another spell into, and cast that spell by breaking the object. Kind of like Glyph of Warding, but with no real restrictions on what sort of spell you can put into it and a more flexible activation mechanism. It allows you to convert downtime resources into active situation resources, transfer Personal spells to other users, and if you're careful about it build Book of Exploding Runes-style stacks of spell-bombs. Has a modest GP cost but it's much cheaper and more flexible than buying or crafting scrolls or potions, which are the items that are actually designed for that kind of purpose.

This is an excellent explanation of why the Disk is broken. It is one of two spells that I always advise DMs to ban (the other, Shapechange, is less of an issue as it doesn't come online until very late in a game).

Rebel7284

2023-08-14, 12:07 PM

While I know that the Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian dip is often used to get pounce, I really have to ask if it is that powerful as most people depict it. Imho it is overrated..^^

1. For Uberchargers: Greater Cleave > Pounce
Since pounce relies on charging in the first place we are talking about an Ubercharger here (because non uberchargers have other options to swift move + full attack). Anything should die within a single blow anyway. Pounce has to deal with lowered BAB while Greater Cleave is executed at full BAB.
Pounce is just the lesser build resource investment (1/20 class level compared to 3/7 feats).

2. For Uberchargers: Whirlwind Attack; Mithral Tornado; Adamantine Hurricane > Pounce
Again, if you kill everything in a single blow, Pounce is the weaker options here. But again, it is easier to get in comprehension.

3. For NON-Uberchargers: Swift Action Movement (swift teleport, Sudden Leap maneuver, Travel Devotion, ...) > Pounce
If you are not an Ubercharger, you probably don't have any charge multipliers. Thus other than the +2 to hit and the restricted movement, it doesn't have that much to offer here. Travel Devotion and other swift movement is way better, even if limited in its daily uses.

I'm not saying that it is bad. Don't get me wrong. But it is definitively overrated. There are better options than Pounce. No matter if you are an Ubercharger or not. It's just that it is very cheap/easy to get and "at-will" what makes it really useful. But for that, you trade up to 5 lvls of early lvl power where your pounce ability does nothing for you. It has its niche imho.

How are you combining whirlwind attack/mithral tornado with a charge?

Uberchargers typically need a ton of feats to do their thing, and getting Pounce in one level is a good deal. Combining with Whirling Frenzy, you can make it useful from level 1, but admittedly it gets better as the game progresses. Cleave is nifty, but you also have some movement restrictions when you charge so setting it up is harder, no to mention that sometimes you are fighting one opponent. Not to mention that your attack might miss or not actually kill your opponent in one hit due to a particularly high HP opponents.

With that said, while pounce is _very_ good, it's on a very different level than something like thought bottle.

Beni-Kujaku

2023-08-14, 01:29 PM

The Sharn and Phaerimm as published in Monsters of Faerun are both playable races. You know‚ the guys who cast spells as SLA (so no material or somatic components‚ and standard action casting)‚ and total CL equal or higher than their ECL. Seriously go read the Sharn and Juvenile Phaerimm and tell me how they thought it could have been anything else than broken.

Chronos

2023-08-14, 01:56 PM

Those are a lot less broken if you interpret their racial spellcasting as being based on racial HD, not total HD. Which is probably what the designers intended, but just botched it up.

Gruftzwerg

2023-08-14, 02:10 PM

How are you combining whirlwind attack/mithral tornado with a charge?
Mounted charge. Your mount takes the charge action and you benefit when attacking at the end of its charge as if charging yourself. You still use your own action for your own attacks and don't use the charge action yourself.

I have to admit that I'm stretching the rules here a bit.
The problem here is the bad editing of the authors regarding the mounted combat rules. They tell you what kind of "attacks" you can make and how often and how you can cast spells. But general rules for the use of "actions" are missing and thus need to be extrapolated...

Imho standard action maneuvers should definitively work.

Whirlwind Attack maybe questionable thou.
It's easier used with Pounce (without a mount).

Uberchargers typically need a ton of feats to do their thing, and getting Pounce in one level is a good deal. Combining with Whirling Frenzy, you can make it useful from level 1, but admittedly it gets better as the game progresses. Cleave is nifty, but you also have some movement restrictions when you charge so setting it up is harder, no to mention that sometimes you are fighting one opponent. Not to mention that your attack might miss or not actually kill your opponent in one hit due to a particularly high HP opponents.

With that said, while pounce is _very_ good, it's on a very different level than something like thought bottle.
Gr. Cleave is really easy to get for an Ubercharger. Power Attack is already a feat requirement for Shock Trooper thus we are looking at 2 extra feats to kill everything in reach. You have full BAB to easily hit everything (unless mischances are involved). Imho worth it and much better than pounce.

Olive_Sophia

2023-08-14, 02:16 PM

&

While I know that the Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian dip is often used to get pounce, I really have to ask if it is that powerful as most people depict it. Imho it is overrated..^^

1. For Uberchargers: Greater Cleave > Pounce
Since pounce relies on charging in the first place we are talking about an Ubercharger here (because non uberchargers have other options to swift move + full attack). Anything should die within a single blow anyway. Pounce has to deal with lowered BAB while Greater Cleave is executed at full BAB.
Pounce is just the lesser build resource investment (1/20 class level compared to 3/7 feats).

2. For Uberchargers: Whirlwind Attack; Mithral Tornado; Adamantine Hurricane > Pounce
Again, if you kill everything in a single blow, Pounce is the weaker options here. But again, it is easier to get in comprehension.

3. For NON-Uberchargers: Swift Action Movement (swift teleport, Sudden Leap maneuver, Travel Devotion, ...) > Pounce
If you are not an Ubercharger, you probably don't have any charge multipliers. Thus other than the +2 to hit and the restricted movement, it doesn't have that much to offer here. Travel Devotion and other swift movement is way better, even if limited in its daily uses.

I'm not saying that it is bad. Don't get me wrong. But it is definitively overrated. There are better options than Pounce. No matter if you are an Ubercharger or not. It's just that it is very cheap/easy to get and "at-will" what makes it really useful. But for that, you trade up to 5 lvls of early lvl power where your pounce ability does nothing for you. It has its niche imho.

I feel that this is a flawed analysis. You really only need a few feats to start ubercharging, and pounce is always great past level 5. If you're not ubercharging, it's a pretty big assumption to think that things are going to go down in one hit. And even if you are, it often takes two hits until later on due to the way monster HP scales. It seems like you're ignoring the fact that you can already split up the additional attacks in your full attack among different targets. Spending two more feats to get a situational way to spread damage just isn't as good as pouncing and spending those feats to make sure that you actually kill. Mithral Tornado is a move exclusive to mid level initiators, and Whirlwind attack is literally buried under 4 mediocre feats.

Charging is just the best way to do damage in melee. Those multipliers get you damage far above most standard builds. Other melee build paths can't easily replicate those numbers without charging. And Pounce is just the best way to charge. But this is a digression.

Gruftzwerg

2023-08-14, 02:41 PM

I feel that this is a flawed analysis. You really only need a few feats to start ubercharging, and pounce is always great past level 5. If you're not ubercharging, it's a pretty big assumption to think that things are going to go down in one hit. And even if you are, it often takes two hits until later on due to the way monster HP scales. It seems like you're ignoring the fact that you can already split up the additional attacks in your full attack among different targets. Spending two more feats to get a situational way to spread damage just isn't as good as pouncing and spending those feats to make sure that you actually kill. Mithral Tornado is a move exclusive to mid level initiators, and Whirlwind attack is literally buried under 4 mediocre feats.

Charging is just the best way to do damage in melee. Those multipliers get you damage far above most standard builds. Other melee build paths can't easily replicate those numbers without charging. And Pounce is just the best way to charge. But this is a digression.

You don't need to wait for Shock Trooper to 1-hit stuff. Why not start directly at lvl 1?

Pick Power Attack and buy a Lance for double damage on a mounted charge. If you have 18 STR you 1-hit everything on your level. And if you have a bonus feat to spare (human/fighter/...), you could already cleave 2 enemies in the first round.

And Ubercharger doesn't have to wait until Shocktrooper to rock the house ;)
And having it early doesn't help that much with dmg. The payoff starts at the mid lvls (8+).

_______________

edit: I would like to add Simulacrum and Ice Assassin to the list. Make clones of your party or strong monsters/villains and use em as cannon folder.

Zanos

2023-08-14, 03:00 PM

I'll throw Incantatrix out here. 4 free metamagic feats over ten levels, and who would actually think maximizing a cloudkill was a good use of two turns? Are you really going to maximize your cloudkill or extend your wall of fire? Maybe it wasn't made specifically for Persistent spell, but both persistent spell and incantatrix are published in player's guide to faerun, and the only good way to use the incantatrix class features is out of combat to boost durations. It seems to me that it's there specifically for ease of use of persistent spell. Notably the DC for the incantatrix class features is quite high(18+3*SL, or 45 for a modified 9th), making me think that it was known that this feature was broken and a very high check was bolted on to "balance" it.

137beth

2023-08-14, 10:00 PM

Do Calling spells count? They're too slow to use in combat...but they last long enough that you don't need to cast them in combat.

Here's The Giant himself ten years ago talking about how Planar Binding and Planar Ally are broken:

A casting time of 10 minutes, plus time spent bartering, plus time spent preparing the room also makes Planar Ally/Binding not viable during combat.

That being said, I don't think you're going to find many people who would argue that the Planar Ally/Binding line of spells is totally balanced and entirely reasonable at their level. Half the ways to break the game start with, "Cast Greater Planar Ally to..."

Tenser's floating disc is only as powerful as the person behind it, too. So is every other spell. The difference is, no matter how skilled or devious the player, the floating disc can only do so much. It is very, very easy to break the game with Planar Ally, simply because there are so many different ways to do it. Planar Ally can do almost anything due to some poorly-conceived monster design, and the only way to stop it is for the DM—outside of the game—to impose rules on the players that involve not reading books those players probably paid good money for. That's not OK.

I'm not going to go further into debating this because I'm not especially invested in convincing anyone. Suffice to say, a lot of people will agree that you have to lean your head and squint and put a bunch of caveats and invoke Rule 0 about a half-dozen times before they're balanced with other spells of the same level. If you're willing to do that, then awesome, have fun. But that doesn't mean they were well-designed.

Ways I have fixed patched it in the past (not counting just disallowing it):

Explicitly requiring a successful Diplomacy check, preferably the sort described in my Diplomacy Fix article, in order to get the creature to agree. This should involve some level of haggling, where the creature can demand more than the caster is willing to give initially. This is more of an issue for Planar Ally than Binding, which has a mechanic in place already.
For Planar Binding, eliminate the ability to use Magic Circle against Evil to "foolproof" the summoning diagram. When drawing the summoning diagram, require a Spellcraft check to get it right. When the creature tries to break out, it uses either its spell resistance or its own Spellcraft, whichever is higher, against the caster level check or the caster's Spellcraft check result, whichever is lower.
For Planar Ally, rather than waiving payment for "strongly ethos-aligned" actions, the ally should only even be available for such actions. Summoning a planar ally and asking it to do something that's not ethos-aligned should cause them to give you the finger and then leave. And even for ethos-aligned actions, payment should be required. If you want to compel a planar creature to do something it wouldn't normally do, be a wizard and try Planar Binding. This is the main loophole that usually breaks the game, because it lets players cherry-pick an outsider that will agree philosophically with what they're doing. It needs to go.
The planar creature should be controlled by the DM and get XP as a henchmen for any battles in which it participates (or even all of the XP, if it solos it). In other words, this isn't a spell that defeats your enemies, this is a spell that lets you hire help anywhere you are. That help still sucks down a share of the XP and treasure, though. In fact, I would explicitly say that if you ask one of these creatures to serve as your temp adventurer for the day, it demands a fair share of the treasure...and maybe first pick of magic items.
Maximum duration of a task should be 1 hour/level. No multiple day tasks, they break the daily resource allotment system. Or at the least, they should require additional XP cost or even the next higher level version of the spell to pull off.
Asking a planar creature to cast any spell higher level than the spell used to call it increases all costs by the amount that would normally be needed to scribe a scroll with that spell. So, you can bind an efreet and ask for a wish, but the cost will be the same as scribing a wish scroll—a lot of gold and XP. This only applies if you are requesting a specific spell, not if you're asking for a task and they choose to use their spell to make it easier on them.
If the DM is really having trouble rather than allowing any planar creature, they could create an explicit list of creatures that are allowed with each version of the spell. Anything the player finds in some obscure monster book that's not on the list is a no-go. Some monsters might be included with an explicit note like, "Cannot use its [such-and-such] spell while called."

Not a perfect fix, but I guarantee you it cuts down on abuse.

JNAProductions

2023-08-14, 10:14 PM

Do Calling spells count? They're too slow to use in combat...but they last long enough that you don't need to cast them in combat.

Here's The Giant himself ten years ago talking about how Planar Binding and Planar Ally are broken:

I don't think they count, as I'm pretty sure they're there for narrative reasons.

Now, in practice they're horrifically broken if used without enough restrictions slapped on. But considering that they're from the first set of books for 3rd, and even by the end Wizards certainly didn't have a perfect grasp of balance, I doubt they were sneakily put in to be an optimization trick, and most likely just there to fill the summoner archetype or demonbinding or whatever.

Olive_Sophia

2023-08-14, 11:05 PM

While a mild example compared to magic chicanery, I feel that the feat Craven may be relevant here. It’s not that it has no downside; in fact, the downside is pretty interesting. But it’s situational, so this option just amounts to a huge buff for any rogue. It’s almost like someone realized their rogue wasn’t competing well enough in damage and snuck this in to help close the gap. It’s a great, iconic feat. But it really does outperform competitors like Deadly Precision, Martial Stance: Assassin’s Stance, and even Knowledge Devotion.

Bucky

2023-08-14, 11:31 PM

Shalantha's Delicate Disk.
This is the most broken thing in the thread in a very literal sense. It is entirely without purpose unless it's broken.

Fero

2023-08-14, 11:38 PM

This is the most broken thing in the thread in a very literal sense. It is entirely without purpose unless it's broken.

Haha, that is awesome.

Crake

2023-08-15, 12:41 AM

I don't think they count, as I'm pretty sure they're there for narrative reasons.

Now, in practice they're horrifically broken if used without enough restrictions slapped on. But considering that they're from the first set of books for 3rd, and even by the end Wizards certainly didn't have a perfect grasp of balance, I doubt they were sneakily put in to be an optimization trick, and most likely just there to fill the summoner archetype or demonbinding or whatever.

Yeah, I dont like those fixes for planar ally. The DM already gets to decide what comes to your aid, you can request a particular creature, but the DM has final say on what actually arrives. As for the creature taking xp, that should already be the case, since its not a hireling, and for treasure, you’re already paying it.

As for planar binding, the solution is simple: make outsiders exist outside of a vaccuum. You summon a creature, it has superiors and subordinates that will question and investigate where they have gone, and you will need to deal with the consequences

Zanos

2023-08-15, 12:52 AM

As for planar binding, the solution is simple: make outsiders exist outside of a vaccuum. You summon a creature, it has superiors and subordinates that will question and investigate where they have gone, and you will need to deal with the consequences
This is out of theme for the actual use of the spells by NPCs. For some reason evil NPC wizards always have enslaved evil outsiders and almost never face retribution for it. And its also out character for some entire classes of outsider. Good outsiders, sure, but it's not as though a Devil that can't defend itself is going to get much sympathy from any other devil, especially its boss. The S flows downhill in hell, not up. It's a hellish bureaucracy, your boss does not exist to help you, and your subordinates probably are neither motivated to help you, as your position is now open, nor generally able to help you, since lesser devils aren't going to be able to transit planes under their own power. And demons aren't really big on the whole "admitting a mortal enslaved you and begging other demons for help" thing. Countless demons and devils go "missing" every day as it is, what with the whole inter-planar war of unprecedented scale that they wage. The only reasonable way I can see a devil investigating is if you're routinely kidnapping enough of his subordinates that his actual plans are harmed. Easily avoided by using divination spells to just target the undesirables sent to the front lines of the blood war anyway. You know, the one where demons and devils both routinely send fiends they want to die anyway?

The spells are just overpowered. There's multiple examples in modules and adventures of NPCs using them to enslave and outright kill the fiends they summon with it with literally no harm ever coming to them as a result.

spectralphoenix

2023-08-15, 12:52 AM

Shivering Touch. Some of these could maybe be excused by the designers not taking into account possible interactions or writing something that was intended to be a DM tool. This isn't that. Ray of Enfeeblement is in the PHB, they knew letting the PCs deal out large amounts of no-save ability damage would trivialize encounters, and they wrote this one anyway.

Condé

2023-08-15, 02:25 AM

Assume Supernatural ability, Metamrophic Transfer.

Sure they might not be the most broken feats by themself. But... With all Books aspect, some shenanigans and maybe by being an outsider you can easily access abilities you are not supposée to have before a long time... And for free.q
Medusa's gaze, death Ray, improved invisibility, free action Ray from a beholder and so on...

The thing is you dont have to be high level. And every level you got something new and potentially broken.

Chronos

2023-08-15, 06:13 AM

Planar Binding and Assume Supernatural Ability aren't exactly what I'm looking for, here. They might (possibly) have been designed for powergaming, but they have non-broken uses as well. The things I'm calling out here just don't even have the non-broken uses at all.

Shivering Touch, though, probably does qualify. I mean, I guess you could use it against level-appropriate monsters that could have been defeated with some other third-level spell... but you can also use it against nearly anything, right out of the box.

Fero

2023-08-15, 08:19 AM

I think. Lot of OP things are just the result of poor drafting and editing. Shivering Touch, for example, deals Dex damage, but only for a duration. What does that even mean? My guess is that the drafter intended it to be a penalty, perhaps even one with a floor of 1, like Ray of Enfeeblement.

Similarly, I think a lot of OPness comes from the drafters/editors not knowing the materials well. For example, I doubt they realized that the average of 3d6 is greater than. The Dex of many monsters most notably dragons.

RandomPeasant

2023-08-15, 09:40 AM

Everytime I've seen someone seriously use Extra Slot and Extra Spell, it's been for cheesy reasons, like getting to bootstrap your way into a full spellbook with Chameleon's floating feat or getting any spell on demand with Void Disciple's Moment of Clarity or doing some Talfirian Song-based rules lawyering to get an 8th-level slot on your sixth-level bard.

Pre-Errata Extra Spell is a fine feat, as it lets you pick up some specific thing you want you wouldn't get normally. The issue is the errata that turns it into trash.

Like let's be real, if this was actually designed for barbarian. This would be like the lvl 6 ability of an ACF instead of the lvl 1 ability. It exists purely for other meleers to dip into barbarian for free pounce. That's why it's lvl 1. That's why it's not rage-gated the way a lot of Barbarian ACFs are.

No, it's level 1 because the only thing the Barbarian gets at 6th level is "your trap sense goes from +1 to +2", which the writers would not have considered an appropriate thing to trade out for Pounce for design aesthetic reasons. Pounce for fast movement works fine on that level, you're trading one movement ability for another. It's a trade that it is clearly correct to take, but there are plenty of trades like that because the designers did not have a reliable understanding of how good things work.

As for planar binding, the solution is simple: make outsiders exist outside of a vaccuum. You summon a creature, it has superiors and subordinates that will question and investigate where they have gone, and you will need to deal with the consequences

I've never understood the idea that the solution to people using planar binding to be overpowered and get more screentime than the rest of the party is to have an entire series of adventures that are about the guy who has been using planar binding.

Phoenix Duck

2023-08-15, 09:41 AM

This is out of theme for the actual use of the spells by NPCs. For some reason evil NPC wizards always have enslaved evil outsiders and almost never face retribution for it. And its also out character for some entire classes of outsider. Good outsiders, sure, but it's not as though a Devil that can't defend itself is going to get much sympathy from any other devil, especially its boss. The S flows downhill in hell, not up. It's a hellish bureaucracy, your boss does not exist to help you, and your subordinates probably are neither motivated to help you, as your position is now open, nor generally able to help you, since lesser devils aren't going to be able to transit planes under their own power. And demons aren't really big on the whole "admitting a mortal enslaved you and begging other demons for help" thing. Countless demons and devils go "missing" every day as it is, what with the whole inter-planar war of unprecedented scale that they wage. The only reasonable way I can see a devil investigating is if you're routinely kidnapping enough of his subordinates that his actual plans are harmed. Easily avoided by using divination spells to just target the undesirables sent to the front lines of the blood war anyway. You know, the one where demons and devils both routinely send fiends they want to die anyway?

The spells are just overpowered. There's multiple examples in modules and adventures of NPCs using them to enslave and outright kill the fiends they summon with it with literally no harm ever coming to them as a result.

You may be thinking a bit too formulaically about how these spells can play out.

First off, I'm not sure I buy the explanation about fiends not caring about their minions getting summoned. Sure, you're not cutting into Asmodeus' bottom line, but it's still an insult to just kidnap his pawns. It's like rummaging through someone's trash. Just because you're taking something that someone is discarding anyway doesn't mean there aren't social ramifications for doing so. After all, if you just keep summoning fiends left and right, it'll start making their bosses look weak.

Second, I'd argue the stronger incentive in the specific case of evil outsiders is the world you're summoning them to, not the world you're summoning them from. In any setting with even the vaguest moral compass, you're going to make a lot of people very upset if you use the legions of pure evil as your minions or otherwise voluntarily seek their powers. Maybe you can get one or two summons before people notice, but that's not bad, balance-wise. Once you get a bunch of them, and if they try in any way to filibuster you (there's nothing in the rules specifying how quickly the summoned creature has to bargain with you), you may have to use a lot of time, space, and spell slots. These are things that can delay an adventure or get outside forces to notice.

Plus, I think this kind of worldbuilding-based penalty is the RAI. The spell description for lesser Planar Binding specifically calls it a "dangerous act" and seems to give ample invitation to the GM to screw over any PCs who get too cocky with it. Very few abilities have as many blatant warning signs placed into the text as Planar Binding.

Rynjin

2023-08-15, 09:58 AM

Simple Pathfinder Example: Sacred Geometry. (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/sacred-geometry/)

Setting aside the annoyance the Feat causes (it's not super complex math but it takes a while to resolve) that already makes it one of the most banned Feats in the game, whoever wrote it didn't really...math it very well.

It is extremely trivial to make the Feat an auto-success, which makes it at a base level one Feat that gives you two Feats for free. That alone would be a headscratcher (it's not like metamagic Feats are weak Feats either), but it also tosses on two other benefits:

-The metamagic can be used spontaneously even by Prepared casters.
-The metamagic does not take a higher level spell slot (though you must still be able to cast spells of the level it would NORMALLY be raised to)
-The above effect can be applied even to non-Sacred Geometry metamagic
-The feat can be taken multiple times, granting the effect above to any other two metamagic Feats of your choice.

It's a Feat that is fundamentally unbalanced. There is no use-case in which it is not broken, because even at the most baseline level of power it gives you a BOGO on a Feat your character wants. It is always objectively superior to take Sacred Geometry twice instead of grabbing 4 metamagic Feats manually. And at the highest levels of optimization (where for example, the feat can be grabbed spontaneously and changed out every day, or multiple times per day) it's a very bizarre one to have around.

It's not like...game breaking at most tables, but it is very weird, and very breakable.

Telonius

2023-08-15, 10:15 AM

Crake

2023-08-15, 10:18 AM

Pre-Errata Extra Spell is a fine feat, as it lets you pick up some specific thing you want you wouldn't get normally. The issue is the errata that turns it into trash.

No, it's level 1 because the only thing the Barbarian gets at 6th level is "your trap sense goes from +1 to +2", which the writers would not have considered an appropriate thing to trade out for Pounce for design aesthetic reasons. Pounce for fast movement works fine on that level, you're trading one movement ability for another. It's a trade that it is clearly correct to take, but there are plenty of trades like that because the designers did not have a reliable understanding of how good things work.

I've never understood the idea that the solution to people using planar binding to be overpowered and get more screentime than the rest of the party is to have an entire series of adventures that are about the guy who has been using planar binding.

Im fairly sure there are several ACFs that trade stuff at one level and give you stuff at another. Shapeshifter druid is a perfect example, you lose wildshape which comes in at 5, but gain shapeshifting at 1. Yes you also lose animal companion, but the point still stands.

As for the planar binding thing, I dont see why the party saving the idiot binder’s ass isnt a win for them. They get screentime while he has to deal with the consequences. Alternatively, they leave him to his fate because its not their problem, and the player rerolls.

RandomPeasant

2023-08-15, 10:26 AM

Im fairly sure there are several ACFs that trade stuff at one level and give you stuff at another. Shapeshifter druid is a perfect example, you lose wildshape which comes in at 5, but gain shapeshifting at 1. Yes you also lose animal companion, but the point still stands.

I don't understand how pointing to something that gives you things at the same levels it takes things from you disproves my point just because it does so at multiple different levels. Sure you could make Lion Totem spread out over multiple levels, but then it would be a different ACF. The issue here is just that they did not think pounce was that good. Look at the other options! You could get pounce or "an extra +2 when flanking" or "+4 to two skills that aren't class skills for you". The devs just didn't think pounce is very good, it's not some conspiracy where they gave it out early because they understood that every martial character is a big pile of dips.

As for the planar binding thing, I dont see why the party saving the idiot binder’s ass isnt a win for them. They get screentime while he has to deal with the consequences. Alternatively, they leave him to his fate because its not their problem, and the player rerolls.

This is just banning planar binding with extra vindictiveness.

Crake

2023-08-15, 11:31 AM

This is just banning planar binding with extra vindictiveness.

No, its making planar binding a gambit that should only be used as a last resort.

FauxKnee

2023-08-15, 11:33 AM

When I consider feats that behave exactly as intended, I think Uncanny Forethought is probably the single strongest one. I'll admit that spending two feats, (including Spell Mastery tax) suffering a reduced caster level, and casting as a full-round do offset things. Still, it's absurd to be able to pull out at least three of potentially dozens of "silver bullet" spells on the fly.

Inevitability

2023-08-15, 12:27 PM

Diplomacy. Yes, at low levels there are 'legitimate' uses, but put in the smallest amount of effort to get a good bonus and the skill just inherently breaks the game.

Like, if you play a bard who started off with 15 charisma and got it up to 20 by the end of the campaign, who owns a +6 charisma item and a masterwork tool, who got a synergy bonus from bluff or sense motive, and who dutifully maxed out the skill (which is basically nothing as far as skill optimization goes) you end up with +35 to diplomacy.

That modifier lets you:
-Be guaranteed to turn hostile creatures neutral with one full-round action.
-Turn neutral people helpful in a minute, or have an 80% chance of doing it in a round.
-Have an 80% chance of turning unfriendly people helpful in a minute.

That's not a power that the game is actually prepared to deal with! Nobody writes high-level adventures with the explicit understanding that the party bard can nonmagically autocharm anyone who understands language!

Gruftzwerg

2023-08-15, 12:34 PM

Probably the most-frequently outlawed magic item of them all: Dust of Sneezing and Choking. The only "non-broken" use of it would be if it's treated as a genuinely cursed item, and the players don't notice that it's not actually Dust of Appearance. But even then, it does something more awful to the bad guy than just making it visible: it makes it stunned for 5d4 rounds, no save. (The Con damage is just the cherry on top). This is an area-based kill button, that you can get for 2400 gp.

If people would use the item's rule instead of making up application methods it's actually not that OP as most people think:

If cast into the air, it causes those within a 20- foot spread to fall into fits of sneezing and coughing.

You are not given any permission to throw it into a space, because it doesn't spread on its own on impact!
You have to actively "cast it into the air" around you (to lead it spread 20ft).
Thus the user is also affected by it for the same duration unless it has some kind of immunities.

Sure there are still workarounds like using something that doesn't breath (undead, constructs, air races, ...) but it ain't that OP for the regular user.
Or you could also let the party rogue sneak up into the enemy group to launch it. Your allies can then finish enemies off even if the rogue is affected.

It's still very strong and maybe still broken, but it ain't that broken as most people assume it.

icefractal

2023-08-15, 01:31 PM

Rynjin

2023-08-15, 02:25 PM

Typically the way published material handles this IME is that the angels are off making sure those world-ending threats typically arise FROM the world and not from extraplanar threats. When a Demon or a Devil or what have you comes out of the Abyss or Hell to destroy [Planet] they are absolutely there to help when they can.

But usually, being MASSIVELY outnumbered, they have their hands full just making sure only relative small fries get there in the first place, and they have to trust in the strength of mortals to help themselves once they're warned something is happening and given a nudge and some aid in the right direction..

Zanos

2023-08-15, 02:30 PM

First off, I'm not sure I buy the explanation about fiends not caring about their minions getting summoned. Sure, you're not cutting into Asmodeus' bottom line, but it's still an insult to just kidnap his pawns. It's like rummaging through someone's trash. Just because you're taking something that someone is discarding anyway doesn't mean there aren't social ramifications for doing so. After all, if you just keep summoning fiends left and right, it'll start making their bosses look weak.
I absolutely agree that if you repeatedly cut into the same dudes resources that he will be upset with you; not because you took his friends and loved ones away, but because you're screwing him, personally, over. But the outer planes are big places with lots of death and missing persons that nobody really cares about. The amount that you would have to use the spell to prompt investigation by a powerful fiend would be very large, unless you start spiriting away pit fiends or the like.

Second, I'd argue the stronger incentive in the specific case of evil outsiders is the world you're summoning them to, not the world you're summoning them from. In any setting with even the vaguest moral compass, you're going to make a lot of people very upset if you use the legions of pure evil as your minions or otherwise voluntarily seek their powers. Maybe you can get one or two summons before people notice, but that's not bad, balance-wise. Once you get a bunch of them, and if they try in any way to filibuster you (there's nothing in the rules specifying how quickly the summoned creature has to bargain with you), you may have to use a lot of time, space, and spell slots. These are things that can delay an adventure or get outside forces to notice.
This is true, and usually does not come up in these arguments. I would expect people to take serious issue with a spellcaster that made a habit of publicly having fiends do his bidding. Of course, you could always use your half dozen fiends or whatever to clear dungeons that don't have creatures that regularly participate in civilized society, which is most dungeons. Still, in the worst case scenario, a single spell has warped the game into one of the PCs fighting the armies of good with his fiends. That's not good for the game.

The rules do actually say how you negotiate. You compel the creature to serve by describing the service, optionally offering a reward, and then making an opposed charisma check. It only refuses if it wins the charisma check, and you can make an additional check every day. There's no option to filibuster. Remember, planar binding is magical slavery. It is not a friendly negotiation of mutual aid. There's even examples of fiends who are bound by mortal spellcasters for hundreds of years, or ones who are killed by friendly fire by the spellcaster who bound them, with no opportunity to break the hold of the binding.

Plus, I think this kind of worldbuilding-based penalty is the RAI. The spell description for lesser Planar Binding specifically calls it a "dangerous act" and seems to give ample invitation to the GM to screw over any PCs who get too cocky with it. Very few abilities have as many blatant warning signs placed into the text as Planar Binding.
I agree that planar binding isn't safe, I just don't think it's as unsafe as people make it out to be. A pit fiend isn't going to show up and gank you because you kidnapped some bearded devils and they got killed. Bearded devils die by the millions every day and nobody cares. The blood war is a dumping ground for unwanted fiends. If the creature you bind survives, it's going to have to use its own resources to try to take revenge on you, not cry to his boss and expect his boss to solve his problems for him, because that isn't how capital E Evil creatures usually operate. Crying to your boss that you got embarrassed by a mortal spellcaster is a good way to get demoted.

No, its making planar binding a gambit that should only be used as a last resort.
Which again is not how it's actually used by nearly any characters in the settings based on this ruleset.

InvisibleBison

2023-08-15, 04:19 PM

spectralphoenix

2023-08-15, 04:50 PM

Planar Binding / Planar Ally do bring a major thematic problem from the background into the spotlight: Heaven is Useless.

So in D&D you've got entire realms of angels. Powerful angels, one of whom could handle entire low-level adventures by itself. Angels who theoretically are not only Good but ultra-Good, and would desire to right any wrongs they encounter and certainly prevent any world-scale threats.

And yet, it falls to the PCs to do these things. Why? On a Doylist level, because the PCs are the protagonists and the angels aren't. But on a Watsonian level, it can make the angels look like uncaring jerks who claim to be Good, but really don't give a **** about the little people (or even, apparently, the survival of the entire world?)

When the angels are "somewhere off in another plane" it's easier to ignore them. But when you cast Planar Ally, summon one, and it's like "I'm gonna need cash in hand if you want me to save those orphans from the fire, bro" (as the suggested fix above would have them do), then it makes them look like amoral mercenaries, sure AF not the avatars of goodness.

World-scale threats dealt with by the PCs alone are still a big plot hole regardless. No way around that, AFAIK.

This is a lot like the "why do Good temples charge the PCs for healing" question. The usual answers are twofold. First, because the PCs can afford it. They're sitting on a big pile of gold, they presumably expect to be paid when they do good deeds for the king or whoever, so they should be prepared to pay when they ask for deeds from someone else. Money going to the angel is helping the forces of good at least as much as when it's piled inside the PCs' portable hole. Second, it helps make sure whatever the PCs want is actually important. The angels are out there fighting for Good already, they don't want lazy PCs dragging them away from their duties just because it's a more efficient use of spell slots than getting off their butts and solving the problem themselves. Being a champion for good on the mortal plane is why your cleric was given those spell slots in the first place, after all.

They also aren't taking that payment and spending it on good times and beer. They're using it to advance the cause of Good. They might not even take payment directly - maybe the angel demands the party endow an charity, or pass down a spare magic weapon to another upcoming hero in need.

Now, in an extreme case, maybe an angel would work for free - against a problem the PCs genuinely couldn't solve without angelic help, and when they genuinely don't have anything to spare. That's okay. But that is very rare (and DM-dependent), not something that happens just because the spellcaster doesn't feel like getting his boots muddy slogging through the Swamps of Stench to fight the Toad Prince.

Tohron

2023-08-15, 05:03 PM

The 30% crafting cost reduction on magic items by adding an alignment restriction certainly feels this way. It's practically free cost reduction if you're making something for your own use.

And, on the topic of item creation, auto-resetting magic traps are ridiculously cheap for what they do, even if you limit them to resetting once/round, rather than activating arbitrarily fast.

RandomPeasant

2023-08-15, 07:58 PM

And yet, it falls to the PCs to do these things. Why? On a Doylist level, because the PCs are the protagonists and the angels aren't. But on a Watsonian level, it can make the angels look like uncaring jerks who claim to be Good, but really don't give a **** about the little people (or even, apparently, the survival of the entire world?)

I think the best solution to this is a sort of realpolitik. Every team has stuff they want done that can be done by low-level characters. You don't need to send a Solar to go deal with some 1st level necromancer cultists, and you don't need to send a Balor to perform your standard virgin sacrifice. If you do go send a Solar to stop the sacrifice, or a Balor to protect the cultists, the immediate result is that your side wins. But the slightly longer term result is that now everyone gets Solars and Balors sent after them, and the whole thing immediately escalates to the apocalypse, which neither side particularly wants (you do have to sand down how evil Evil is a bit for this to hold). So everyone is looking for ways to intervene enough to give their side an advantage, but not so much that the other side gets to do a larger retaliatory intervention.

But when you cast Planar Ally, summon one, and it's like "I'm gonna need cash in hand if you want me to save those orphans from the fire, bro" (as the suggested fix above would have them do), then it makes them look like amoral mercenaries, sure AF not the avatars of goodness.

I never really understood why you'd pay for planar ally in money. The other option is to pay a creature that is defined as sharing your goals and values by doing a task for it, for which it will presumably pick something that fulfills the shared goals and values. What's the angel going to do, say "sure I know you just told me there's an apocalypse cult over there, and I know we both agree that apocalypses are bad, but I'm really going to need you to take a moment to go pick up my groceries"?

World-scale threats dealt with by the PCs alone are still a big plot hole regardless. No way around that, AFAIK.

It's not too hard to make it so that the action is mostly focused on the PCs without making them face the threat "alone". If you assume that all the stuff most parties want NPCs to do (make magic items, provide healing the Cleric can't cover, offer the option to scribe over spells) is done by the Fantasy UN rather than vague abstractions, it mostly works out. It's not trivial to maintain the balance, especially around the point where the PCs transition from "helping with a smaller task in the background of a larger problem" to "able to address the larger problem directly", but it is doable.

Which again is not how it's actually used by nearly any characters in the settings based on this ruleset.

It's also just not a particularly good paradigm either. Having an "only use this if you are about to lose" option risks breaking the kayfabe around risk and the PCs, and if it's genuinely random you have the spell broken in some campaigns and worthless in others. The fix for planar binding is very simple: figure out the value of minions you think it is okay to have, figure out the reduction to that value appropriate for hot-swapping being easier than it is with Leadership or animate dead, and then tell everyone that you're houseruling/gentleman's agreement-ing planar binding to provide that value worth of minions. "The clever demon tricked the foolish summoner" is not a paradigm that works well in multi-author fiction.

sreservoir

2023-08-15, 08:30 PM

You have a point. Then maybe the metamagic cost reducers/replacements are what's broken. Now that I'm on that line of thought, maybe metamagic feats themselves are what's broken.

No, it's Persistent Spell specifically that's broken. Metamagic feats on the whole are notoriously overcosted for what they do, and the only other combinations of metamagic cost reduction + feat that occasionally raise an eyebrow are the low-level Fell Drain combos.

I'll throw Incantatrix out here. 4 free metamagic feats over ten levels, and who would actually think maximizing a cloudkill was a good use of two turns? Are you really going to maximize your cloudkill or extend your wall of fire? Maybe it wasn't made specifically for Persistent spell, but both persistent spell and incantatrix are published in player's guide to faerun, and the only good way to use the incantatrix class features is out of combat to boost durations. It seems to me that it's there specifically for ease of use of persistent spell. Notably the DC for the incantatrix class features is quite high(18+3*SL, or 45 for a modified 9th), making me think that it was known that this feature was broken and a very high check was bolted on to "balance" it.

Particularly pertinent: delete Persistent Spell, and what do you have left? Still a solid PrC, to be sure, but weigh those class features, which mostly don't even work on the usual next-best metamagic to cost-sub, against the feat tax, extra banned school, and the opportunity cost of not taking all the other full casting PrCs, and without the absolutely busted effect of Persistent Spell, it really stops looking all that appealing for all but the most hardcore metamagic-stacking builds. How does Incantatrix without Persistent Spell stack up vs, say, Divine Oracle? I bet the latter is starting to look better more often than not!

I think. Lot of OP things are just the result of poor drafting and editing. Shivering Touch, for example, deals Dex damage, but only for a duration. What does that even mean? My guess is that the drafter intended it to be a penalty, perhaps even one with a floor of 1, like Ray of Enfeeblement.

Similarly, I think a lot of OPness comes from the drafters/editors not knowing the materials well. For example, I doubt they realized that the average of 3d6 is greater than. The Dex of many monsters most notably dragons.

It's even funnier if you read Lesser Shivering Touch in isolation, which ... causes touched creatures to shiver, making them take 1d6 Dex damage for a duration while shivering!

Pre-Errata Extra Spell is a fine feat, as it lets you pick up some specific thing you want you wouldn't get normally. The issue is the errata that turns it into trash.

It's not even errata, it's the FAQ advancing the interpretation that the feat "does not remove the restrictions of how you would normally pick your spells", a position utterly at odds with the text of the feat that renders it a waste of ink.

Dust of Sneezing and Choking is activated by being "cast into the air". How exactly are you able to do that without being within 20 feet of it, and thus subject to its effect?

I'm not sure sending a disposable corpse to activate the Dust before everyone else comes in to mop up the disabled foes makes it that much less borked...

Crake

2023-08-15, 08:41 PM

"The clever demon tricked the foolish summoner" is not a paradigm that works well in multi-author fiction.

It is if the player doing the summoning buys into the narrative. I’ve had multiple players buy into it, and some handled it better IC than others.

Planar binding can also be used as a “summon the fiend to chat in relative safety, then dismiss them back home” spell, rather than meeting on common ground where they might ambush you.

Clause

2023-08-15, 08:43 PM

Illithid savant. Oh that thing is.... as powerful as the DM.

voidmaster. You can be in all magic locations at once when adventuring and combat.

The entire book of 9 swords!!!

Uncanny Forethought feat.

The illumian race

Mindbender PRC

Hellbreed race.

JNAProductions

2023-08-15, 08:45 PM

The entire book of 9 swords!!!

Is high floor/low-to-moderate ceiling really grounds for something broken?

Fero

2023-08-15, 09:14 PM

I find ToB to be one of the better written/ balanced books in 3.5.

For broken classes: Thrallherd & Beholder Mage

Crake

2023-08-15, 09:31 PM

I find ToB to be one of the better written/ balanced books in 3.5.

For broken classes: Thrallherd & Beholder Mage

I feel like you cant really include beholder mage, as it was clearly designed to be purely used as a DM tool

Gruftzwerg

2023-08-15, 10:22 PM

I feel like you cant really include beholder mage, as it was clearly designed to be purely used as a DM tool

Designed as DM tool? Maybe. Dunno about the intentions here.

But RAW it is sole a shenanigan tool for non-beholders. Beholders can't advance by class. Thus the only legal option here to qualify is via transformation magic by RAW...

Pinkie Pyro

2023-08-16, 02:51 AM

Innate spell.

Intended use: sacrifice a 9th level spell slot so you can cast a 1st level spell slot at will.

Why it exists only to be broken: well, first off, 2k-8k gold lets you get an at will or continuous 1st level spell, so the intended use is already useless, but:

A: the fact that it doesn't list having a spell slot of the appropriate level as a prerequisite or say what happens to that spell slot

B: "As well, spellcasters who become unable to cast spells of the level of the spell slot used to power the innate spell become unable to use the spell-like ability." specifically only applying if you could cast spells of that level to begin with, so sacrificing a non-existent 14th level spell slot is still kosher, and

C: "As well, you must have any focus required by the spell in order to use it as a spell-like ability, and if the innate spell has a costly material component, you must use an item worth 50 times that cost as a focus." Is just a juicy optimization idea. For instance, using fabricate to be able to instantly create 1/50th of an amount of material.

and, lets face it, having one spell you can just spam to your hearts content is a fun idea for any build, broken spell or no.

Chronos

2023-08-16, 06:39 AM

Quoth Tohron:

The 30% crafting cost reduction on magic items by adding an alignment restriction certainly feels this way. It's practically free cost reduction if you're making something for your own use.
The magic item creation rules are very often misunderstood. They're in the DMG, not the PHB, for a reason. The DM has the sole say on what custom (or even non-custom) magic items can exist in their game. Only if the DM decides that the item is possible can the player use the rules to create it. So the player can (probably) make a Wand of Magic Missiles (unless the DM has banned that item, but they probably haven't), and if the DM has decided that "Wands of Magic Missiles, but only usable by Neutral Good characters" is a thing, then the player can make that, and it's cheaper than a general-use Wand of Magic Missiles. But if the DM has not decided that such an item is possible, it just doesn't exist.

More likely, the DM has decided that only a few specific items have alignment restrictions, and which restriction they have depends on the specific item, and some items that the players might want, they can't have, because they have the wrong alignment.

Similarly, the costs for custom items are only listed as guidelines, not absolute rules, and it's expected that the DM will adjust or even completely ignore them as appropriate.

As for the "Heaven is useless" argument, my interpretation is that direct, unmediated intervention by Outer Planes denizens risks destroying the world. Calling spells like Planar Binding or Planar Ally mediate the intervention, anchoring it to a spellcaster (who's presumably from the Material Plane), and thus prevent the risk. The risk is enough to prevent celestials from interfering directly, because they don't consider risking the whole plane to be acceptable. Many fiends would consider such a risk acceptable, but they're limited by their capability, not by ethics: No published fiend has the ability to travel to the Material Plane on its own. Now, sometimes, there's a portal that's opened up to Hell, or whatever, and that presents a problem, because the fiends are willing to take advantage of that, which runs the risk both of them succeeding at whatever their evil plan is, and also the risk of them destroying the world in the process. That's why the PCs are needed, to stop them. But Heaven can't help them directly (at least, not without the mediation of the appropriate spells), because that would just make the risk even greater.

Quoth Gruftzwerg:

But RAW it is sole a shenanigan tool for non-beholders. Beholders can't advance by class. Thus the only legal option here to qualify is via transformation magic by RAW...
When a monster lists "advancement by character class", that's purely an indication of how the monster typically advances. The only actual requirement to advance by character class is having an Int of 3 or higher, which beholders have easily. As LA:-- monsters, they only gain levels by DM fiat, but that fiat is an option for DMs (just like animals gaining more HD and sometimes increasing in size also only happens by DM fiat).

Gruftzwerg

2023-08-16, 10:02 AM

When a monster lists "advancement by character class", that's purely an indication of how the monster typically advances. The only actual requirement to advance by character class is having an Int of 3 or higher, which beholders have easily. As LA:-- monsters, they only gain levels by DM fiat, but that fiat is an option for DMs (just like animals gaining more HD and sometimes increasing in size also only happens by DM fiat).

Typically? I don't see any indicator for that in the rules..

Advancement

The monster entry usually describes only the most commonly encountered version of a creature. The advancement line shows how tough a creature can get, in terms of extra Hit Dice. (This is not an absolute limit, but exceptions are extremely rare.) Often, intelligent creatures advance by gaining a level in a character class instead of just gaining a new Hit Die. (See Improving Monsters.)

Class Levels

Intelligent creatures that are reasonably humanoid in shape most commonly advance by adding class levels. Creatures that fall into this category have an entry of "By character class" in their Advancement line. When a monster adds a class level, that level usually represents an increase in experience and learned skills and capabilities.

The BM prc rules could have created a specific exception to specifically allow Beholders to advance as BM, but it doesn't. the authors missed that opportunity.

As far as I see it, the DM needs to make houserules to allow a true Beholder to become a Beholder Mage. It ain't RAW. If I'm missing any rules, pls point me to em.

NontheistCleric

2023-08-16, 12:10 PM

Improving Monsters

Each of the monster entries describes a typical creature of its kind. However, there are several methods by which extraordinary or unique monsters can be created using a typical creature as the foundation: by adding character classes, increasing a monster’s Hit Dice, or by adding a template to a monster. These methods are not mutually exclusive—it’s possible for a monster with a template to be improved by both increasing its Hit Dice and adding character class levels.

I would argue that this text, especially the last line, allows all three methods of advancing monsters–adding HD, adding class levels, and adding templates–to be applied to any monster by DMs, RAW.

The following text states that humanoid-shaped monsters most commonly advance with class levels, but it does not disallow them from having their HD advanced as well. Similarly, nonhumanoid monsters are stated to be able to advance via HD, but at no point is their ability to take class levels denied.

Indeed, it would make little sense to specify that a creature could advance in all three ways if advancement by HD and advancement by character class were mutually exclusive and a creature was limited precisely to what was stated in the 'Advancement' section of its statistics.

You must advance a monster by type if it lacks the Intelligence score to gain class levels (minimum 3).

This implies that any monster with more than 3 Intelligence can take class levels, supporting the above interpretation of the rules on improving monsters.

Gruftzwerg

2023-08-16, 04:07 PM

I would argue that this text, especially the last line, allows all three methods of advancing monsters–adding HD, adding class levels, and adding templates–to be applied to any monster by DMs, RAW.

The following text states that humanoid-shaped monsters most commonly advance with class levels, but it does not disallow them from having their HD advanced as well. Similarly, nonhumanoid monsters are stated to be able to advance via HD, but at no point is their ability to take class levels denied.

Indeed, it would make little sense to specify that a creature could advance in all three ways if advancement by HD and advancement by character class were mutually exclusive and a creature was limited precisely to what was stated in the 'Advancement' section of its statistics.

This implies that any monster with more than 3 Intelligence can take class levels, supporting the above interpretation of the rules on improving monsters.

You are referring the the general rules which tells you what is theoretically possible without specifying any monster. Yeah there may be monsters which may have both advancement options. But it doesn't say all of em can.

I provided the more specific rules how to read the "Advancement:"-line which provides you with the exact information for each monster entry how it may advance. Nowhere I see that this is sole intended as "typical" advancement (allowing other options by RAW).
It's a strict rule and if you don't follow it, you are houseruling (nothing wrong with that, but it simply ain't RAW).

Chronos

2023-08-16, 04:29 PM

Intelligent creatures that are reasonably humanoid in shape most commonly advance by adding class levels. Creatures that fall into this category have an entry of "By character class" in their Advancement line.
You bolded the wrong part. Beholders don't most commonly advance by adding class levels. Most commonly, they add racial HD. But just because they don't commonly gain class levels doesn't mean they can't. The only rule, anywhere, that limits what monsters can take class levels is the Int 3 one.

NontheistCleric

2023-08-16, 04:44 PM

You are referring the the general rules which tells you what is theoretically possible without specifying any monster. Yeah there may be monsters which may have both advancement options. But it doesn't say all of em can.

I provided the more specific rules how to read the "Advancement:"-line which provides you with the exact information for each monster entry how it may advance. Nowhere I see that this is sole intended as "typical" advancement (allowing other options by RAW).
It's a strict rule and if you don't follow it, you are houseruling (nothing wrong with that, but it simply ain't RAW).

The text you quoted was a statement of what is more common, not a prescription that only monsters stated to advance by character class in their statistics table can do so. It doesn't contradict the prior rule that all three types of advancement can be employed for any given creature.

In contrast, the Intelligence rule actually is a definite, specific exception to the rule that says monsters can be improved in three different ways.

Crake

2023-08-16, 06:37 PM

Just like "Alignment: Always Chaotic Evil" doesn't actually mean always chaotic evil, "Advancement: By HD" doesn't mean it's exclusively by HD. Beholder mage was made for beholders, not for people polymorphing into beholders. Personally, considering you can't even use your antimagic eye or the eye rays when polymorphing, I would say that it wouldn't even count for entry into the class.

NontheistCleric

2023-08-16, 07:01 PM

Telonius

2023-08-17, 08:23 AM

Dust of Sneezing and Choking is activated by being "cast into the air". How exactly are you able to do that without being within 20 feet of it, and thus subject to its effect?

Mage Hand. A familiar. Being more than 20 feet away from other members of your party.

Gruftzwerg

2023-08-17, 09:40 AM

You bolded the wrong part. Beholders don't most commonly advance by adding class levels. Most commonly, they add racial HD. But just because they don't commonly gain class levels doesn't mean they can't. The only rule, anywhere, that limits what monsters can take class levels is the Int 3 one.
Maybe I should have bolded this part?

Intelligent creatures that are reasonably humanoid in shape most commonly advance by adding class levels.
1. It talks about creatures that are reasonably humanoid shaped. Do you really wanna argue that a Beholder fits into this?
2. "most" is an indicator that this ain't a strict rule but sole what is most commonly to be expected.
3. The real rule that remains here is what stands in the "Advancement:"-line (HD/Class) (see below in the next response)

The text you quoted was a statement of what is more common, not a prescription that only monsters stated to advance by character class in their statistics table can do so. It doesn't contradict the prior rule that all three types of advancement can be employed for any given creature.

In contrast, the Intelligence rule actually is a definite, specific exception to the rule that says monsters can be improved in three different ways.
Yeah it talks about what is more common in general, without specifying any monster at all. It talks about the majority of monsters (by race, not by individuals of a single race). Just as the text about intelligent humanoid shaped does.
It also only talks about majorities (indicator: "most") and ain't a strict rule. The strict rule is what stands in each monster's own entry in the Advancement line.

This is because the specific "Advancing a Monster" rules tell us:

Class Levels

Intelligent creatures that are reasonably humanoid in shape most commonly advance by adding class levels. Creatures that fall into this category have an entry of "By character class" in their Advancement line. When a monster adds a class level, that level usually represents an increase in experience and learned skills and capabilities.
No "most" or anything else that would water down the rule. It's a strict rule and if you don't apply it, you are beginning to houserule.
(As said, nothing wrong with houserules here. That is something every DM/table needs to decide for him-/themselves.)

Just like "Alignment: Always Chaotic Evil" doesn't actually mean always chaotic evil, "Advancement: By HD" doesn't mean it's exclusively by HD. Beholder mage was made for beholders, not for people polymorphing into beholders. Personally, considering you can't even use your antimagic eye or the eye rays when polymorphing, I would say that it wouldn't even count for entry into the class.

As shown above, you can only advance a monster by "Class Levels" if it has the correct entry in the Advancement line.
The sole option that a DM has here is "Rule 0" (make houserules), which leaves the RAW ground.

Also, did I imply anywhere that sole Polymorph would be enough to enter it?
To give you an example that I did use for a forum contest (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25368609&postcount=42) already:
1. Aberration Wild Shape
2. Warshaper 1 dip for Morphic Weapons (to grow the eye rays)
3. Assume Supernatural Abilities: Beholder (Central Eye)
This option allows you even to use your BM spells in any transformed form where you grow your Eye Rays. Note that the Spellstalks are a class ability and thus still can trump the Eye Rays you grow (thus giving you Spellstalks as normal for your BM lvls).

______________________

While we are talking about BM I think I could reveal my next showcase build which will be based on that:

PACMAN !

NontheistCleric

2023-08-17, 10:16 AM

This is because the specific "Advancing a Monster" rules tell us:
No "most" or anything else that would water down the rule. It's a strict rule and if you don't apply it, you are beginning to houserule.
(As said, nothing wrong with houserules here. That is something every DM/table needs to decide for him-/themselves.)

Creatures that fall into the category of most commonly advancing by class levels have that language, yes. It's still referencing the 'most' in the previous sentence, and thus does not constitute the strict rule you think it does.

Gnaeus

2023-08-17, 11:17 AM

This is out of theme for the actual use of the spells by NPCs. For some reason evil NPC wizards always have enslaved evil outsiders and almost never face retribution for it. And its also out character for some entire classes of outsider. Good outsiders, sure, but it's not as though a Devil that can't defend itself is going to get much sympathy from any other devil, especially its boss. The S flows downhill in hell, not up. It's a hellish bureaucracy, your boss does not exist to help you, and your subordinates probably are neither motivated to help you, as your position is now open, nor generally able to help you, since lesser devils aren't going to be able to transit planes under their own power. And demons aren't really big on the whole "admitting a mortal enslaved you and begging other demons for help" thing. Countless demons and devils go "missing" every day as it is, what with the whole inter-planar war of unprecedented scale that they wage. The only reasonable way I can see a devil investigating is if you're routinely kidnapping enough of his subordinates that his actual plans are harmed. Easily avoided by using divination spells to just target the undesirables sent to the front lines of the blood war anyway. You know, the one where demons and devils both routinely send fiends they want to die anyway?

The spells are just overpowered. There's multiple examples in modules and adventures of NPCs using them to enslave and outright kill the fiends they summon with it with literally no harm ever coming to them as a result.

And then there are the things that are basically low int animals in the lower planes, stuff that just roams around in packs. Or the fact that the vast majority of the time, you are calling on outsiders to do stuff that they want to do anyway, like calling angels to fight a demon cult or summoning demons with descriptions that say they love random murder. The thought that an angel hit squad is going to do anything seriously bad to a LG wizard for summoning LG angels and negotiating with them to do LG things is absurd. Or all the evil outsiders who get off on corrupting humans and really want to be summoned so they can cause more evil. Heck, most evil PCs wouldn't shy away with adding a few sacrifices into the pot to evil deity/fiend of choice just to grease the infernal cogs. The "outsider hierarchies will punish you for using these spells" argument passes basic logical muster about 00.1% of the time.

icefractal

2023-08-17, 12:34 PM

Intelligent creatures that are reasonably humanoid in shape most commonly advance by adding class levels.This doesn't say anything about how Beholders advance, because they're not humanoid shaped. It neither supports or opposes a Beholder advancing by class levels.

"Most cops wear belts" != "Most people who wear belts are cops"

Since the other quote about Int 3+ is relevant to Beholders, unlike this one, IMO there's more support for "they can do so".

Chronos

2023-08-17, 06:34 PM

Crake

2023-08-17, 07:12 PM

Right, exactly. Beholders don't have "by character class" listed, because they're not human-ish, and it's mostly only human-ish things that take class levels. They can, but being not human-ish, they usually don't.

I don’t even know why this discussion is being entertained, the beholder mage is literally designed for beholders. And since beholders are not eligible for use by player characters, the class was clearly designed for DM use only. The fact that players found (highly arguably valid) entry methods doesnt change that.

Gruftzwerg

2023-08-18, 02:28 AM

Creatures that fall into the category of most commonly advancing by class levels have that language, yes. It's still referencing the 'most' in the previous sentence, and thus does not constitute the strict rule you think it does.
Previous sentence?
Sorry but I don't buy that the word "most" from the rules for the "Advancement:"-line carries over to the specific rules for advancing by "Class Level". The rules for adding class levels are specific, strict and have no indicator that waters down the rule as said. If you lack the entry "Advancement: by class", it ain't possible by RAW.

Also remind you that the Advancement line's definition refers us to the actual rules for "Advancing Monsters", which contain the rules I quoted for advancing by "Class Level" or "HD".

This doesn't say anything about how Beholders advance, because they're not humanoid shaped. It neither supports or opposes a Beholder advancing by class levels.

"Most cops wear belts" != "Most people who wear belts are cops"

Since the other quote about Int 3+ is relevant to Beholders, unlike this one, IMO there's more support for "they can do so".
Which other quote with "Int 3+"? The only rule I found for this is what I already did quote and that leaves no room for Beholders with class level.

Right, exactly. Beholders don't have "by character class" listed, because they're not human-ish, and it's mostly only human-ish things that take class levels. They can, but being not human-ish, they usually don't.

Shall we look what the rules tell what happens (generally) with intelligent non-humanoid shaped creatures?

Increased Hit Dice

Intelligent creatures that are not humanoid in shape, and nonintelligent monsters, can advance by increasing their Hit Dice. Creatures with increased Hit Dice are usually superior specimens of their race, bigger and more powerful than their run-of-the-mill fellows.
The general rule for intelligent non-humanoid shaped creatures is that they advance by adding HD. And Beholder follow this rule. Without a specific call out (e.g. Advancement: "by class") you can't trump the general rules presented.

The rules for advancing by class and the rules for advancing by HD make both clear that without specific exceptions (or DM fiat) Beholders can only advance by HD. And the Beholder entry follows those general rules and doesn't call out the opposite in its Advancement line.

I don’t even know why this discussion is being entertained, the beholder mage is literally designed for beholders. And since beholders are not eligible for use by player characters, the class was clearly designed for DM use only. The fact that players found (highly arguably valid) entry methods doesnt change that.
Designed and maybe even intended yeah. But RAW they simply failed, if the intention was to allow true Beholders to enter the PRC. (That's some "brokenness on another level/layer" imho and the reason why I did bring it up in the first place)

And class requirement like race is always something that can be cheesed out in most cases in 3.5. I barely see anyone complaining (in the forum) in any non-beholder cases, when someone uses transforming magic to enter stuff.
Thus I don't see that as a valid argument here.

By RAW the Beholder Mage prc can't be entered by real Beholders, but sole humanoids that transform into one.

NontheistCleric

2023-08-18, 03:48 AM

Previous sentence?
Sorry but I don't buy that the word "most" from the rules for the "Advancement:"-line carries over to the specific rules for advancing by "Class Level". The rules for adding class levels are specific, strict and have no indicator that waters down the rule as said. If you lack the entry "Advancement: by class", it ain't possible by RAW.

Also remind you that the Advancement line's definition refers us to the actual rules for "Advancing Monsters", which contain the rules I quoted for advancing by "Class Level" or "HD".

The actual rule says that "Advancement: By character class" denotes a monster belonging to the category of monsters most commonly advancing using that method, nothing more and nothing less. It does not forbid other creatures with the requisite intelligence (as stipulated by my own quote from Savage Species) from advancing using class levels.

The general rule for intelligent non-humanoid shaped creatures is that they advance by adding HD. And Beholder follow this rule. Without a specific call out (e.g. Advancement: "by class") you can't trump the general rules presented.

The rules for advancing by class and the rules for advancing by HD make both clear that without specific exceptions (or DM fiat) Beholders can only advance by HD. And the Beholder entry follows those general rules and doesn't call out the opposite in its Advancement line.

Not really. The rule you quoted says what such creatures can do, but does not exclude them from the more general permission in the Improving Monsters section to employ all three methods of advancement.

SpyOne

2023-08-18, 05:11 AM

Dust of Sneezing and Choking is activated by being "cast into the air". How exactly are you able to do that without being within 20 feet of it, and thus subject to its effect?
It doesn't say radius, it says "spread". I can cast it into the air in front of me, and thus be standing just outside its area of effect.

In fact, that seems like it's intended use. Or rather, the intended use of Dust of Appearance, which it is intended to be mistaken for. I suppose one could throw it straight up to reveal any invisible creatures that happen to be standing next to you, but it is more likely that you throw a handful of dust in the direction that you think the invisible creature is in.

SpyOne

2023-08-18, 05:29 AM

As for the "Heaven is useless" argument, my interpretation is that direct, unmediated intervention by Outer Planes denizens risks destroying the world. Calling spells like Planar Binding or Planar Ally mediate the intervention, anchoring it to a spellcaster (who's presumably from the Material Plane), and thus prevent the risk.
Just a thought here: maybe they don't. ("Prevent the risk", I mean.)
Maybe part of why those spells are considered "dangerous" is that beings from the Outer Planes being on the Material Plane is inherently dangerous. Maybe outsiders of all types might be upset if they find out you are doing that. And maybe forces on the Material Plane will seek you out and demand that you stop.

But yeah, social taboos can't balance powerful effects because Player Characters rarely care about social taboos.

InvisibleBison

2023-08-18, 07:49 AM

It doesn't say radius, it says "spread". I can cast it into the air in front of me, and thus be standing just outside its area of effect.

The problem with this approach is that "spread" (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#area) is a defined rules term, and it does in fact treat its origin as its center.

In fact, that seems like it's intended use. Or rather, the intended use of Dust of Appearance, which it is intended to be mistaken for. I suppose one could throw it straight up to reveal any invisible creatures that happen to be standing next to you, but it is more likely that you throw a handful of dust in the direction that you think the invisible creature is in.

I think the intent is less to hope that there's an invisible creature next to you than to use some method of determining what square an invisible creature is in and then moving next to it and using the dust of appearance.

ciopo

2023-08-18, 09:25 AM

It doesn't say radius, it says "spread". I can cast it into the air in front of me, and thus be standing just outside its area of effect.

In fact, that seems like it's intended use. Or rather, the intended use of Dust of Appearance, which it is intended to be mistaken for. I suppose one could throw it straight up to reveal any invisible creatures that happen to be standing next to you, but it is more likely that you throw a handful of dust in the direction that you think the invisible creature is in.

It's a cursed item, the intended use is for it to backfire when whoever wants to use the dust of appaerance tries to use it. You try to throw it at the whoever you want revealed (cast it in the air, as it were) and instead it explodes in your face as soon as it leaves your hands in a throwing motion

Gruftzwerg

2023-08-19, 12:43 AM

The actual rule says that "Advancement: By character class" denotes a monster belonging to the category of monsters most commonly advancing using that method, nothing more and nothing less. It does not forbid other creatures with the requisite intelligence (as stipulated by my own quote from Savage Species) from advancing using class levels.

Not really. The rule you quoted says what such creatures can do, but does not exclude them from the more general permission in the Improving Monsters section to employ all three methods of advancement.

Lets have a look where the word "most" stands in the quotes and what it is targeting:

Advancement

The monster entry usually describes only the most commonly encountered version of a creature. The advancement line shows how tough a creature can get, in terms of extra Hit Dice. (This is not an absolute limit, but exceptions are extremely rare.) Often, intelligent creatures advance by gaining a level in a character class instead of just gaining a new Hit Die. (See Improving Monsters.)

The first sentence talks about monster entry overall without considering the Advancement line.
Because it talks about the "most commonly encountered versions" which excludes Advanced Version in the first place.

It's the 2nd sentence that actually starts to talk about the Advancement line and there is doesn't say "most" anywhere.
It talks about extra HD and that often intelligent creatures advance by class.

The 2nd sentence also refers you to "Improving Monsters" for the actual advancement rules. And there is where the party starts. Because we have 2 distinctly defined categories which are in conflict with the general statement of advancing by HD and that "often" intelligent creatures advance by class (which was sole meant to give an oversimplified overview and thus gets trumped by the more specific rules here).

If you want to discuss this any further I request that you show me a quote and explain to me where "most" is doing what you pretend that it does. I have now often enough shown you that the sole "most"-word that I can find doesn't do what you pretend that it does.
I don't see anywhere where the rules imply "this is how a creature can most commonly can advance" or something similar.

Fiery Diamond

2023-08-19, 01:08 AM

Lets have a look where the word "most" stands in the quotes and what it is targeting:

The first sentence talks about monster entry overall without considering the Advancement line.
Because it talks about the "most commonly encountered versions" which excludes Advanced Version in the first place.

It's the 2nd sentence that actually starts to talk about the Advancement line and there is doesn't say "most" anywhere.
It talks about extra HD and that often intelligent creatures advance by class.

The 2nd sentence also refers you to "Improving Monsters" for the actual advancement rules. And there is where the party starts. Because we have 2 distinctly defined categories which are in conflict with the general statement of advancing by HD and that "often" intelligent creatures advance by class (which was sole meant to give an oversimplified overview and thus gets trumped by the more specific rules here).

If you want to discuss this any further I request that you show me a quote and explain to me where "most" is doing what you pretend that it does. I have now often enough shown you that the sole "most"-word that I can find doesn't do what you pretend that it does.
I don't see anywhere where the rules imply "this is how a creature can most commonly can advance" or something similar.

You literally quoted the "most" being referenced and then said it wasn't there. Here:

ORIGINAL QUOTE

Class Levels

Intelligent creatures that are reasonably humanoid in shape most commonly advance by adding class levels. Creatures that fall into this category have an entry of "By character class" in their Advancement line. When a monster adds a class level, that level usually represents an increase in experience and learned skills and capabilities.

YOU

No "most" or anything else that would water down the rule. It's a strict rule and if you don't apply it, you are beginning to houserule.
(As said, nothing wrong with houserules here. That is something every DM/table needs to decide for him-/themselves.)

That most. That most applies to the advancement line on monsters.

NontheistCleric

2023-08-19, 01:59 AM

If you want to discuss this any further I request that you show me a quote and explain to me where "most" is doing what you pretend that it does. I have now often enough shown you that the sole "most"-word that I can find doesn't do what you pretend that it does.
I don't see anywhere where the rules imply "this is how a creature can most commonly can advance" or something similar.

As Fiery Diamond points out, the relevant 'most' is in the text you yourself quoted in this post (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25847370&postcount=58).

Frankly, I'm a little offended that you would accuse me of pretending to have evidence I don't have. At worst, I assumed you would be aware of text you quoted yourself.

Gruftzwerg

2023-08-19, 11:38 AM

You literally quoted the "most" being referenced and then said it wasn't there. Here:

That most. That most applies to the advancement line on monsters.
&

As Fiery Diamond points out, the relevant 'most' is in the text you yourself quoted in this post (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25847370&postcount=58).

Frankly, I'm a little offended that you would accuse me of pretending to have evidence I don't have. At worst, I assumed you would be aware of text you quoted yourself.

"Intelligent creatures that are reasonably humanoid in shape most commonly advance by adding class levels."
The first sentence makes a general statement and ain't a hard rule, because we have the indicator "most". But that doesn't carry over the the entire definition.

"Creatures that fall into this category have an entry of "By character class" in their Advancement line."

It doesn't say: "Most creatures that fall into this category have an entry of "By character class" ", just because the previous sentence made a statement about "most creatures that fall into this category".
And what kind of stupid "excuse statement" would that be? I doubt that the author wanted to tell us that they have been lazy with writing the entry "by character class" on some monsters. That was definitively not the intention here, nor do I see it as RAW.

In other words:
Creatures with the "Advancement:" entry "by character class" may advance by class (what a surprise..).

The "most" you are referring to doesn't allow you to ignore the entry of the "Advancement:" line. That's not what the rules say here.