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ChudoJogurt
2023-08-13, 06:02 PM
I know everyone and their D&D playing mother has thought about putting guns into D&D.
But still, I have had some thoughts, mostly inspired by the Exalted version of gunpowder.

This is a short write-up of some basic gun-like "firedust" weapons, modifications, and feats relevant to them.

Firedust
Firedust is a substance that sometimes accumulates in the rocks in the hot deserts, or mined from the Plane of Fire.
When alchemically treated it turns into avery fine golden-white powder that ignites easily on contact with air, producing bright, pure flame.

Firedust weapons, general.
Firedust weapons count as [Firedust] weapons, that require corresponding feat to use well. Those who are not proficient with firedust weapons run a much greater chance of misfiring, and causing more damage to themselves than to the enemy.
Firedust weapons are also considered Ranged weapons, and thus provoke AoO when shooting into melee.
Firedust weapons work by propelling (mechanically or magically) alchemically-treated fire-dust. Initially coated, once dispersed and coming into contact with air, firedust burns, creating an impressive tongue of fire.
While seemingly simple to use and powerful, firedust weapons are volatile and dangerous to the user if not as much as to the target. It is the weapon of the desperate, foolish or fireproof.

Misfire:
Firedust is volatile and dangerous substance. If two 1's are rolled on the damage dice, it explodes prematurely, causing the damage equal to the shot damage in a 5ft radius centered on the user (and including him) instead. The creatures in the blast are can half the (Reflex DC 10 half, but the user himself cannot make the saving throw). This makes firewand useless, until it's fixed. (requiring Craft check at DC 20 and an hour of work with reasonable number of instruments).
If the user is not proficient with the firewand, then 1's and 2's both count towards the chance of misfire.

Carrying firedust weapons.
Firedust weapons take a bit of time to load, so most would take to carrying them loaded. However, firedust is not the most endurant of substances. When carrying a loaded firedust weapon, it would become defunct if it comes in contact with water — e.g. during rain, during a river crossing, or underwater.
In that case the firewand charge becomes intert, and is completely lost.
Firewand weapon then needs to be cleaned (a simple process requiring five minutes given basic instruments), re-cranked (if applicable), and re-charged before it can be used.

Loaded firedust weapons also react poorly to open flames. When a person carrying a firedust weapon is subject to area-of-effect fire energy attack (including a shot from a firewand) for which he suffers damage and has failed a saving throw, then the firedust currently loaded into their weapon or weapons explodes, as per Misfire.
If the attack does not permit a saving throw (e.g. Alchemist fire attack) then it does not have a chance of igniting the firedust.

Alternatively, one may target the firewand weapon directly with a fire attack, with intention of igniting the firedust within. That is resolved as Sunder attempt, except on success, the firedust ignites, dealing Misfire damage, regardless of the damage dealt.

Finally, Heat Metal (or equivalent) spell that targets the firedust weapon automatically causes the dust within to explode, dealing Misfire damage.

Items:
Firedust pellet (Alchemical item)
Cost 5gp (cheaper near the Western Desert)
Firedust pellets are created by alchemically treating natural firedust pellets, coating them in a thin protective film that prevents them from igniting before being dispersed.
They are sold in sealed clayen balls, that protect them from heat, accidental air exposure and water.
In order to charge the firedust weapon, one usually crushes the clay container, and pours the firedust into the muzzle of the weapon, sealing it with a piece of parchment or cloth.

Firewand, one-handed, Exotic, 50gp.
Firewand resembles a repeated crossbow, except instead of the string,it has a hollowed-out tube.
[It's a gun, mkay? Like a muzzle-charged pistol]
It is charged with pellets of firedust, collected in the deserts beyond the Western Steppe, and hand-cranked to charge the pneumatic engine inside.

Once the trigger is released, it shoots out the firedust, which immediately ignites on contact with air, dealing 2d4 damage in a 15-ft line. The user can also overstuff the firewand, adding more pellets of the firedust than intended, upping the damage by 1d4 per pellet, up to 5d4.
Reflex (DC 7+1 per dose above first) halves the damage.
Recharging the firewand takes a full round action to stuff it with the desired amount of pellets and crank the mechanism, and provokes AoO.

Firestaff, two-handed, Exotic [100gp]
Firestaffs are a bigger version of a firewand, with a longer barrel allowing to focus the stream of fire better, and thicker, heavier frame, allowing to stuff more firedust without as much danger of a misfire.
They work the same way as firewands, except they deal 2d8 damage in 20ft line + 1d8 per 2 fire pellets, with Misfire triggered on having 1's and 2's for proficient users, and on 1's, 2's, 3's and 4's for non-proficient user.
One can stuff up to 10 pellets in a firewand.

Firestaff, stream.
As Firestaff, except instead of 20ft line, it does a 10-ft cone.

Firebomb (300gp+)
Firebomb is a vessel (glass, or clay) full of firedust, and a small detonation charge (magical, alchemical or mechanical) that disperses it on impact.
It's a thrown weapon with 10ft range increment.
It has no misfire chance on use, and deals 2d6 damage on impact in a 5ft radius. It requires a ranged touch attack vs AC 5 to put in a desired square, else it misses per grenadelike weapon rules.
More doses of firedust can be added, up to 5d6, at a cost of 150gp worth of extra firedust per 1d6.

Bigger firebomb (1000gp+)
Even more doses of firedust can be added on top of the biggest firebomb, but at that point it becomes too big and unwieldy to throw effectively.
It now resembles a big pot, rather than a grenadelike weapon.
At 150gp per another d6 it can be increased from 6d6 to 10d6
It has a throwing range of 5ft.
Big firebombs tend to be even more volatile and unpredictable then firedust weapons, and, when stored improperly (or just somebody looked at them too hard) can explode.
For each day a bigger firebomb is moved, kept in anything but a specially made, air- and temperature- stable closed room with regular inspections, roll 1d100, and on a roll of 5 or less it goes boom in an explosion, taking along any firedust that's stored nearby.

Modification
There are many modifications to the firedust weapons, that try to alleviate some of their flaws or increase their potency.
Here are some of the most common ones:

Firedust weapon, masterwork [+300gp for firewand, +600 gp for firestaff]
Masterwork firedust weapons are much better designed. They will only misfire when three 1's (or three 1's and 2's for non-proficient users) come up on the damage dice.
They also include a mechanical stopper for keeping firedust safe before it's fired, which means it does not suffer misfire when it is hit by AoO fire spell.

Firedust weapons, magic [+1000gp]
A firedust weapon enchanted to propel the firedust pellets through the means of magic, instead of hand-cranked air-pressure mechanisms. This allows to recharge the firedust weapon as a move action.
Magic firedust weapons do not function in the antimagic field.

Firewand, multi-barrel.
Prerequisite: Must be Masterwork.
Cost: multiply base cost by number of barrels.

In order to mitigate the long loading times of a firewand, some firewands have 2, 3 or even 4 barrels. More barrels are not really possible without custom and very clever engineering.
Multibarrel firewands function just like normal firewands, except the firedust charge is counted separately for each barrel.
However, if a multibarrel firewand misfires, the misfire of the barrel is increased by +2 dmg for each charge in the remaining barrels, as the charges in them explode as well.
If the misfire is caused by external cause, then the barrel with the most charges determines the number of d4's rolled.
Each barrel, once expended, must be recharged separately.
Firestaves cannot be multibarrel.

Firedust weapon, enhanced.
Enhcanting a firework weapon makes the firedust stream more focused and dense. Increase Reflex Save DC by 2 for each +1 of the Enhancement bonus, and add +1 damage per enhancement bonus per die.
(So a +2 Firestaff with 4 firedust charges would deal 5d4+10 damage)

Bayonet. [30 gp]
Bayonet can be affixed to a firestaff, in order to turn it to a makeshift spear.
Fixing and un-fixing a bayonet is a move action that provokes AoO.
Once fixed with bayonet, a firestaff weapon can be used as an improvised shortspear, with all the stats of the shortspear, except that it has a -2 penalty for using it. When bayonet is affixed, firestaff cannot be fired or recharged.

Firespear [700gp].
Firespear is a longspear with a firewand exhausts on each side of the speartip.
It can thus be used as a (single-barrel) masterwork firewand, with additional reach of a longspear, or as a regular, if somewhat unwieldy longspear. It is however very time-consuming to recharge, requiring to detach the spear tip to refill the firedust compartment, which takes at least 5 minutes.
When used as a longspear, it has stats of longspear.

Firesword [700gp].
Firespear is a longsword with a firewand exhausts poking out of the top of the hilt, and running along the first third of the the blade instead of the fuller.
It can thus be used as a (single-barrel) masterwork firewand, except it only shoots a 5-ft line of fire.
It is also very time-consuming to recharge, requiring to detach the spear tip to refill the firedust compartment, which takes at least 5 minutes.
When used as a longsword, it has stats of longsword, except it deals 1d6 damage, and only threatens a critical hit on nat 20.

Feats:

Firedust weapon proficiency [Fighter, General]
You're proficient with firewands and firestaves.
You can also use fireswords and firespears, as long as you're also proficient with longsword and longspear respectively.
//Firebombs don't really require proficiency.

Packer:
You can pack more bang with more buck.
You may stuff extra pellets into firedust weapons, charging up to 6d4 damage into a firewand, and 6d8 into firestaff

Careful.
Prerequisite: Proficient with Firedust Weapons.
You know the dangers and techniques for proper treatment of the firedust.
Misfire is triggered only when at least 3 damage dice show 1's
Usual: Misfire is triggered when 2 damage dice show 1's

rel
2023-08-16, 04:15 AM
These weapons don't seem worth using.
They're exotic, there's a non zero chance of them exploding whenever you use them. Actually a pretty high chance if you charge them for maximum damage.
they're too expensive for use at the low levels where they might actually see use before people gain multiple attacks and just give up on them in favor of hitting more than once.
They don't add a stat, making them often less damaging than a mundane weapon.
they reload very slowly and can suffer from damp.
Also, they provoke and have a short range.

The semi guaranteed damage of an AOE doesn't do nearly enough to justify the problems. I suppose I could see the muggle fireball getting some use, but even then, the price is so high a scroll of regular fireball might be cheaper.

Like if you want a thematic but ultimately crappy weapon that only ever gets used by NPC's, you have that. But I can't see a PC buying one of these when a composite bow is so much better.

Zhorn
2023-08-16, 11:10 AM
Misfire:
Firedust is volatile and dangerous substance. If two 1's are rolled on the damage dice, it explodes prematurely, causing the damage equal to the shot damage in a 5ft radius centered on the user (and including him) instead. The creatures in the blast are can half the (Reflex DC 10 half, but the user himself cannot make the saving throw). This makes firewand useless, until it's fixed. (requiring Craft check at DC 20 and an hour of work with reasonable number of instruments).
If the user is not proficient with the firewand, then 1's and 2's both count towards the chance of misfire.


The moment I got to here was the moment I was noping out of this.

The fundamental issue with misfire rules is the same for the issue with fumble rules; you have a mechanic that lopsidedly punishes one specific style of play while another style gets off without any issue.
"attack rolls of a nat 1 do a bad thing to the wielder... but magic predominantly uses saving throws and so they won't have to deal with it... and generally only make a single d20 roll a turn if at all, but the non-casters are making 2-4 every round and then some" <- that just tells players to avoid interacting with the punished aspect of play.

Misfire is the same for firearms of all stars and stripes. Roll bad with firearms and be punished, but don't use them and you won't be.
It's all well and good to intend for 'power at a cost' type gameplay. But you need to take an even approach to it, for it to be fun for the table it needs consistency so that one specific aspect isn't copping all of the trouble and driving players away from it to safer routes.
Either no misfires/fumbles/miscasts, or all three in even amounts.

Grod_The_Giant
2023-08-16, 12:05 PM
It's been a while since I looked at the actual rules for firedust weapons in Exalted, but iirc they had two key features: you added a flat amount of bonus damage instead of factoring in your Strength, and they had reduced accuracy penalties at very short ranges.

If I were to directly translate that into d&d terms, I'd say maybe flame pieces should use twice as many damage dice as a crossbow of the same size, but not let you add your Dex to damage. Their range would be significantly lower, but you wouldn't suffer disadvantage from using one in melee.

That might not be what you're going for, though, so I need to ask: what role do you see these rules as playing in an actual game. Are these weapons supposed to be commonplace? Exotic, expensive, and deadly? Some damn fool gnomish invention more likely to kill the user than the target?

ChudoJogurt
2023-08-16, 02:54 PM
It's been a while since I looked at the actual rules for firedust weapons in Exalted, but iirc they had two key features: you added a flat amount of bonus damage instead of factoring in your Strength, and they had reduced accuracy penalties at very short ranges.

If I were to directly translate that into d&d terms, I'd say maybe flame pieces should use twice as many damage dice as a crossbow of the same size, but not let you add your Dex to damage. Their range would be significantly lower, but you wouldn't suffer disadvantage from using one in melee.

That might not be what you're going for, though, so I need to ask: what role do you see these rules as playing in an actual game. Are these weapons supposed to be commonplace? Exotic, expensive, and deadly? Some damn fool gnomish invention more likely to kill the user than the target?

That's actually a really good question.
In my current campaign, my players are going into a low-level (3-5 lvl) magic-poor area, with a bunch of sand-pirates and fire-based-magicians. So I wanted something that would give them a bit of novelty, and let some NPCs compete with magic-wielding kung-fu knowing well-equipped PCs of a similar level.

In a more general way, Firearms are supposed to be a supplemental/first strike weapon for characters at level 3-7, before they will either have to abandon them entirely in favor of a more elegant Sublime and Arcane means, or start seriously investing in them via dedicated feats, classes and martial arts [To be added later].
I also tried to balance on the side of caution here. Do all y'all think I overdid it? Would slashing the costs help?

Grod_The_Giant
2023-08-16, 03:46 PM
Do all y'all think I overdid it?
Drastically.

My advice for anyone looking to include guns in D&D is to start with crossbows--those are the sort of initially-strong-but-requires-investment-later the game is balanced around. (In fact, my usual suggestion is "just refluff crossbows").

Or, since you want an AoE weapon, start from cantrips--but bear in mind that (pre-scaling) cantrips are intentionally weaker than weapon attacks, so you need to boost the damage by about an ability score modifier's worth.

Something like 2d6 damage, Dex for none, seems like a good starting point. That's a decent amount of damage for a single weapon attack, and the utility of hitting a small area is balanced out by the difficulty of avoiding your own teammates and a little added price. (I once had a homebrew Warlock in my group with an at-will AoE in my group during one campaign, and it really didn't shine in most encounters).

ChudoJogurt
2023-08-16, 04:06 PM
Whoops, my bad.
I did not mark this as 3.5.
So, just in case, this is 3.5. So Crossbows don't add Dex, and cantrips deal 1d3 damage here.

Grod_The_Giant
2023-08-16, 05:13 PM
Whoops, my bad.
I did not mark this as 3.5.
So, just in case, this is 3.5. So Crossbows don't add Dex, and cantrips deal 1d3 damage here.
Ahhh, that tracks. My bad; I should have known better than to assume, especially after you referenced Tome of Battle stuff.

My gut says "still too punative" (based on my sheer hatred of fumble and misfire rules, if nothing else), but it's been a long, long time since I did anything much with 3.5e, so I wouldn't place too much trust in it.

I guess maybe you could use a wand of burning hands as a benchmark, so one shot's worth of firedust costs about as much as one charge of a first-level wand?

EDIT: Also, and I'm just throwing this out there, I bet someone out there has adapted Righteous Devil Style into maneuvers...

rel
2023-08-16, 11:53 PM
That's actually a really good question.
In my current campaign, my players are going into a low-level (3-5 lvl) magic-poor area, with a bunch of sand-pirates and fire-based-magicians. So I wanted something that would give them a bit of novelty, and let some NPCs compete with magic-wielding kung-fu knowing well-equipped PCs of a similar level.

In a more general way, Firearms are supposed to be a supplemental/first strike weapon for characters at level 3-7, before they will either have to abandon them entirely in favor of a more elegant Sublime and Arcane means, or start seriously investing in them via dedicated feats, classes and martial arts [To be added later].
I also tried to balance on the side of caution here. Do all y'all think I overdid it? Would slashing the costs help?

For that purpose it works fine. They're laughably bad weapons, but also take no skill at all to use. A low level mook with an expensive gun can deal some fairly reliable damage to a few party members before going down.
And there's the occasional cool scene where a PC punches someone out before they can blast the party, or the big gun guy lines up, everyone braces for impact, then the gun jams and the PC's get a reprieve as the enemies blow themselves up.

They make a good 'NPC only' weapon; They asymmetrically buff NPC's, and are crazy valuable so make for good loot for the PC's to sell.

As written, my PC's probably wouldn't do anything with them beyond selling all that fancy kit at the trading post.

ChudoJogurt
2023-08-17, 06:24 AM
Any suggestions on how to make them more player-friendly?

I am sort of married to the misfire idea as well as short-range AoO effect, but I would like for players to at least give them a spin.

Slashing costs? Increasing the damage die? More scalable options?

Grod_The_Giant
2023-08-17, 08:21 AM
I'd say drop the bit about AoE attacks setting off a loaded firewand entirely, and change misfire chances for proficient users to require rolling only ones--that should make them more appealing.

ChudoJogurt
2023-08-17, 01:41 PM
I'd say drop the bit about AoE attacks setting off a loaded firewand entirely, and change misfire chances for proficient users to require rolling only ones--that should make them more appealing.
I don't think the last one works, as it reduces misfire chance as the damage increases, which is counterintuitive

JNAProductions
2023-08-17, 01:46 PM
I don't think the last one works, as it reduces misfire chance as the damage increases, which is counterintuitive

So, someone with one attack (BAB 0-5, no special training) has a 1/20 chance of misfiring.
Someone with two attacks (BAB 6-10 or special training via a feat) has a 1/400 chance of misfiring.

The reduction to 1/20th of the last one might be a lil' much, but conceptually it's a good idea.

If you get, say, five attacks (Haste and BAB 16, let's say) you have a 1 in 3,200,000 chance of misfiring with Grod's suggestion.
If you misfire on ANY one, that's instead more than a 1/5 chance, though not quite a 1/4 chance.

Getting more attacks represents (with the exception of magically granted ones) more skill, training, and competence. It should also come with lesser misfire, then.

ChudoJogurt
2023-08-17, 01:56 PM
...that's not at all how it works.

JNAProductions
2023-08-17, 02:12 PM
...that's not at all how it works.

No?

Ah, I thought it was on the attack roll, not the damage roll. My bad.

Grod_The_Giant
2023-08-17, 02:28 PM
I don't think the last one works, as it reduces misfire chance as the damage increases, which is counterintuitive
Maybe--I suppose it's something you could move to a feat instead--but you said that you wanted to make these playable.

By your original rules, a firewand loaded with a single charge has a one in sixteen chance of blowing up any time you pull the trigger. Two charges takes you up somewhere around a 40% chance of a misfire. Three charges brings you past 60%, and four charges almost to 80%.

Do you think your players are going to want to use an expensive item that has a very good chance of blowing up in their face? Especially since a player will almost certainly be taking multiple shots each round--no reason not to stack TWF and Rapid Shot penalties when there's no attack roll involved.

It might make logical sense for someone shooting five times in six seconds to misfire more often than someone who only shoots once every twelve, but there's a lot that doesn't make logical sense about D&D.

-------

Restrictions like having water screw up firewands and spells like Heat Metal automatically set them off, on the other hand, are great--they're simple, distinct, and flavorful. They're not likely to come up often in isolation, but they can easily be exploited by clever players (or foes). Add that to the cost of each shot and the fact that 5d4 damage for 100 gold honestly isn't that great, because the time that becomes a reasonable expense 12.5 damage in a 15ft cone isn't going to help much, and I think you've got all the balance you need.

ChudoJogurt
2023-08-17, 05:15 PM
Alrighty, so, the problem is that as I originally wrote it, you need two feats to use Firedust effectively.
That's Weapon Proficiency and [Careful] the new feat that decreases explosion chance to 'measly' 10% on 5d4/5d8 damage.
That's ok for single-purpose NPCs, especially human ones, but probably too much for PCs, especially ones that encounter firedust weapons mid-build.

So, I've remade things a bit, following y'all's advice.
a)I slashed the costs of weapon pretty much to 1/5th and 1/10th of the original. Also cut the price of the firedust to 5gp/pellet.
Now that's an old rickety thing, barely more than a tube with a spring in it.
It's something your 1st level character buys, and generally never overstuffs, lest he goes caboom.

b)Changed the properties on the Masterwork version.
Now it does not explode on AoO, and requires three dice to go off as 1's (if you're proficient) or 1's and 2's if you're not.
That means you don't need to buy a feat, and it's a reliable weapon up to 3 dice (misfire chance of 1.5%), that can be, if the push comes to shove, be overcharged to do up to 5d8 at a 10% chance of going boom.
At a cost of 350-600gp, this is a weapon of 3rd-5th level characters, that nicely supplements them for a first-round attacks or used when they encounter swarms or DR'd creatures for which they don't yet reliably have magic weapons.
They can also easily protect themselves against the worst of misfire with the Protection from Elements or Armor Crystals.

c)Now if someone wants to play with those things for real, they buy a magic multibarrel weapon and invest in feats.
Weapon Proficiency, Careful (negligible chance of misfire on 4 dice), Rapid Reload & Two Weapon Fighting, which allows 6th level fighter dual-wielding two firewands to unleash some hell dealing 3x5d4 damage per round, with minimal shenanigans doing so every round, which, I think, is fairly neat.

d)Now if you _really_ want to play with firedust, well, then you need to start taking a prestige class I'm writing, which is supposed to take care of the cost factor as well as provide scalability to mid- high- levels.

rel
2023-08-18, 12:55 AM
Just to make sure I understand correctly, these are the numbers you're suggesting?



Wand




*with Packer feat


Pellets
1
2
3
4
5


Save DC
7
8
9
10
11


Damage
2D4
3D4
4D4
5D4
6D4










Staff




*with Packer feat


Pellets
2
4
6
8
10


Save DC
7
8
9
10
11


Damage
2D8
3D8
4D8
5D8
6D8



And the missfire chances should be identical between the two weapons because the chance of missfire doubles along with the damage die.

ChudoJogurt
2023-08-18, 04:39 AM
Just to make sure I understand correctly, these are the numbers you're suggesting?



Wand




*with Packer feat


Pellets
1
2
3
4
5


Save DC
7
8
9
10
11


Damage
2D4
3D4
4D4
5D4
6D4










Staff




*with Packer feat


Pellets
2
4
6
8
10


Save DC
7
8
9
10
11


Damage
2D8
3D8
4D8
5D8
6D8



And the missfire chances should be identical between the two weapons because the chance of missfire doubles along with the damage die.

Yup.
That's correct.

Tvtyrant
2023-08-19, 02:19 PM
If I was doing gunpowder in D&D I wouldn't pattern them off D&D weapons at all. I would give them a much higher damage output and an absurd reload time, design them to work like real life so everyone fires off their rounds/throws grenades turn 1 and then fights with normal weapons for the rest of combat.

rel
2023-08-21, 12:30 AM
Do you intend for the reduction in missfire chance from the careful feat and a masterwork weapon to stack?
i.e. a total of 4 1's required for someone wielding a masterwork weapon with the careful feat.

ChudoJogurt
2023-08-21, 07:18 AM
Yes, that was the intention

rel
2023-08-23, 12:32 AM
Alright, here's a bit of analysis.
First of all, some rough missfire rates:

Damage Dice23456
Non-Proficient0.250.500.690.810.89
Proficient0.060.150.250.350.45
Masterwork0.000.130.310.500.65
Proficient + Mwk or careful0.000.010.050.100.16
Proficient + Mwk and careful0.000.000.000.020.04


Next, let's consider DPR. Assuming a very modest +2 reflex save bonus we get the following save chances:


save chance

0.80
0.75
0.70
0.65
0.60



Using those save chances give the following DPR numbers:

Wand DPR
Non-Proficient2.22.32.01.61.2
Proficient2.84.04.95.55.7
Masterwork3.04.14.54.23.7
Proficient + Mwk or careful3.04.66.27.68.8
Proficient + Mwk and careful3.04.76.58.310.1

pellets12345
GP cost per shot510152025




staff DPR
Non-Proficient4.04.23.72.92.2
Proficient5.17.28.89.810.3
Masterwork5.47.48.17.66.6
Proficient + Mwk or careful5.48.311.213.715.9
Proficient + Mwk and careful5.48.411.714.918.2

pellets246810
GP cost per shot1020304050