Subclass features

[paladinn]

Hypothetical question (or maybe not). On the given "subclass levels" where subclasses get their specific "distinguishing" features, has anyone played/allowed swapping of those features between subclasses of the same class? I.e. between Rogue thieves and swashbucklers or assassins, etc? Or is that too "game-breaking"?

[animorte]

Yes, I began talking about this with Build Your Own Subclass and somebody recently opened a thread on this exact same topic, more along the nature of "what would you do with this freedom?"

It doesn't really break very much, but you need to be aware of not having access to certain things that may build upon earlier class features. Say the GenieLock improves its vessel at level 10, but if you didn't take Genie first to get the vessel, that feature will serve you no purpose.


My brother has been running a Cleric off and on for a couple years as such: War spell list, Light feature at 1, Life feature at 2, Twilight feature at 6, hasn't leveled up enough for the next one (except 8 which is basically same across all Clerics).

Another example: I have a Monk with Mercy features at level 3, Ascendant Dragon at 6, and planning to go with Long Death at 11.

[Unoriginal]

Hypothetical question (or maybe not). On the given "subclass levels" where subclasses get their specific "distinguishing" features, has anyone played/allowed swapping of those features between subclasses of the same class? I.e. between Rogue thieves and swashbucklers or assassins, etc? Or is that too "game-breaking"?

It's only game-breaking in the sense it is an unnecesary bookkeeping hassle with potentially major consequences.

No all subclass features are equal, swapping them can result in outlandish "I gaveup next to nothing and got a big payday out of it" situations, or in characters who look cool on paper but are a mess when you play or level up.

If you think it's fun, it's no one's business to tell you otherwise. But if want that at a table, everyone needs to agree to the extra workload.

[animorte]

No all subclass features are equal, swapping them can result in outlandish "I gaveup next to nothing and got a big payday out of it" situations
Subclass Creation Guide and Analysis (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wGeddYfci8vzpvCe_v19mtVrKL2w_h9ieNTPEFN3kk4/edit) by nickl_2000

Though it may not have been updated very recently, it is an excellent breakdown of what types of features can be found at each relevant levels, and how that differs from one base class to the next. It explains where to expect (or place) out of combat vs in-combat features, based on the patterns pre-existing subclasses present.

[paladinn]

It's only game-breaking in the sense it is an unnecesary bookkeeping hassle with potentially major consequences.

No all subclass features are equal, swapping them can result in outlandish "I gaveup next to nothing and got a big payday out of it" situations, or in characters who look cool on paper but are a mess when you play or level up.

If you think it's fun, it's no one's business to tell you otherwise. But if want that at a table, everyone needs to agree to the extra workload.

I'm just thinking of ways to open up other character concepts without multiclassing. Especially since you can't MC within a class to get two subclasses. As animorte mentioned, I think cross-pollination between subclasses could be interesting. A cleric of Apollo, for instance, could mix between features of Light and Life. Or a champion fighter could swap out some features with battlemaster or brute.

Granted, some subclass features build on previous levels; some don't. I think it could be fun. Or it could be a trainwreck. Multi-subclassing??

[CommAndersson]

Hypothetical question (or maybe not). On the given "subclass levels" where subclasses get their specific "distinguishing" features, has anyone played/allowed swapping of those features between subclasses of the same class? I.e. between Rogue thieves and swashbucklers or assassins, etc? Or is that too "game-breaking"?

I've been playing a barbarian paladin, with 2 'mixing'/homebrewed subclasses:
- My DM came up with an idea to replace the Totem barbarian, so that every time I rage, I choose between 3 'forms' (wolf beast, treant or gecko). Each has some resistances and some other minor benefits, but not the all-but-psychic damage resistance.
- Paladin oath we call dedication. Close to devotion, with a splash of vengeance, and can be roleplayed more neutral or even 'evil'.

For me, it works very well and we have used a lot of time trying to balance it (even changing it along the way). Gives me a sense of unique character depth and flavor, without too much having to remember 30-something house rules.
Whatever works for you and your group is good! Querks and perks that makes a character stand out and contribute to the group is always welcome I believe :)

[paladinn]

I've been playing a barbarian paladin, with 2 'mixing'/homebrewed subclasses:
- My DM came up with an idea to replace the Totem barbarian, so that every time I rage, I choose between 3 'forms' (wolf beast, treant or gecko). Each has some resistances and some other minor benefits, but not the all-but-psychic damage resistance.
- Paladin oath we call dedication. Close to devotion, with a splash of vengeance, and can be roleplayed more neutral or even 'evil'.

For me, it works very well and we have used a lot of time trying to balance it (even changing it along the way). Gives me a sense of unique character depth and flavor, without too much having to remember 30-something house rules.
Whatever works for you and your group is good! Querks and perks that makes a character stand out and contribute to the group is always welcome I believe :)

What are the specs for your Oath of Dedication? I'm also pondering a cross between Devotion and Vengeance. More devout than Vengeance and more bad@$$ than Devotion.

[CommAndersson]

What are the specs for your Oath of Dedication? I'm also pondering a cross between Devotion and Vengeance. More devout than Vengeance and more bad@$$ than Devotion.

Something like this (99% is not mine, but bits and pieces) We are currently at barbarian 6, paladin 4, and playtesting for balance. Please feel free to give feedback :smallsmile: :


Oath of Dedication
The Oath of Dedication is taken by paladins who are truly dedicated to the protection of a certain cause. Be it the specifics of a person (Soul Guardian), or a belief (Faithkeeper), they are zealously bound to uphold and protect that. Paladins with the Oath of Dedication can be found as both bodyguards as well as zealots to a belief, a higher cause which they dedicate their entire being. The call is not necessarily good or evil, but the aim is ever true

Tenets of Dedication
One above all! - There is one light that shines brighter than all else. That cause must be guarded with great passion and dedication.
Loyalty - Without loyalty to the cause, there can be no true way.
Skill - To be worthy of the guarding the cause, I must hone my skills, my very being.
Duty - Always be on guard, never shy away from protecting the cause.

Oath Spells:
You gain oath spells at the paladin levels listed:
- Lvl 3: Sanctuary, Silvery Barbs
- Lvl 5: Warding Bond, Spiritual Weapon
- Lvl 9: Thunder Step, Life Transference
- Lvl 13: Freedom of Movement, Summon (Aberration, Construct or Elemental, whichever is most fitting for the Dedication at DMs discretion, chosen permanently when the level is gained. Change only at DMs discretion (change in dedication etc., for roleplaying purposes)
- Lvl 17: Banishing Smite, Hallow
Channel Divinity:
- Vow of Protection: 2 possibilities, still playtesting):
- When another creature within 10 feet of you is hit or fails a saving throw, you can make the attacker reroll, or the creature reroll the saving throw, substituting your AC or proficiency bonus if better. (As death saves are to GM only, you must use one channel divinity before the player rolls it first
save, and the player then rerolls the first fail)
- OR Vow of Protection: When another creature within 30 feet of you takes damage, you can use your reaction to expend a use of channel divinity to use any number of available hit dice. The creature take less damage, equal to the total number rolled, and you take the same amount of damage.
- Vow of Enmity (Vengeance): As a bonus action, you can utter a vow of enmity against a creature you can see within 10 feet of you, using your Channel Divinity. You gain advantage on attack rolls against the creature for 1 minute or until it drops to 0 hit points or falls unconscious.

Bulwark of Steel (from dndbeyond, oath of protection, 18th level revisited (larger area instead of full cover):
Starting at 7th level, Allies (creatures of your choosing, other than yourself) within 5ft of you gain the benefit of half cover (+2AC and +2 DEX saving throws). At 18th level this increases to 15 feet

Bulwark of Opposing Force
At 15th level, when an ally within 10 feet of you takes damage, you may use you reaction to return half the damage to the attacker as radiant damage (ally takes half damage, attacker takes half damage as radiant). Duration (to be decided):
- 1/short rest, charisma modifier (minimum 1) pr long rest or ½ charisma modifier (round up) / long rest

Absolute Bulwark
At 20th level, you can manifest your dedication as a spiritual bulwark to shield yourself and allies from much harm. As an action or reaction, you create a 30-foot aura of radiant bulwark around you.
- Any attacks made against you or allies is made with disadvantage
- any saving throw or ability roll you or the allies make is with advantage
This bulwark last until the start of your second turn after casting (it lasts up to 2 rounds). Once you have used this bulwark, you can’t use it again until you finish a long rest