Rune Knight: BA heavy. What feats to take, if any?

[5eNeedsDarksun]

So I'm looking at the Rune Knight, which is obviously a solid subclass even if you're not going to grapple. But it's very Bonus Action Heavy; it doesn't really start out that way, so I can see people picking something like XBE or PAM then realizing about level 7 that maybe they've picked a trap option.

Assuming 2 Short Rests, over the course of an adventuring day a 7th level RK has
3 Second Winds,
6 Hill/ Storm Runes, and
3 Giant's Might, which continue to scale with proficiency.
So 12+ for the remainder of your career.

Is it worth even taking a feat that uses your bonus action when you might use it half the time depending on length of combats, ability to use some of these out of combat, etc?
What feats would be worth taking?

Reactions don't look too bad at 7, but by 10, depending on what Runes you (re) pick they're starting to add up as well, so things like Sentinel start to look pretty iffy as well.

Given that some Runes are based off of Con there's an argument to be made to pump this as opposed to feats... but from level 7 to 9 if you picked Cloud Rune it's possible to have no runes based off of Con.

Anyway, I'm sure lots of people have played these. Thoughts? Experiences?

[Mastikator]

Sentinel, if your bonus action is busy then start looking into how to make your reaction a bit more busy.

[KorvinStarmast]

So I'm looking at the Rune Knight, which is obviously a solid subclass even if you're not going to grapple. But it's very Bonus Action Heavy; In play, I have found it to be a bit reaction heavy.

Assuming 2 Short Rests, over the course of an adventuring day a 7th level RK has
3 Second Winds,
6 Hill / Storm Runes, and
3 Giant's Might, which continue to scale with proficiency.
So 12+ for the remainder of your career.
You forgot two action surges.
And doesn't the shield rune come on line at 7th?
That's 3 per day at 7 and 4 per day at 9.


Is it worth even taking a feat that uses your bonus action when you might use it half the time depending on length of combats, ability to use some of these out of combat, etc?
I took the one that gives you misty step (Fey Touched) and never looked back.
That's 1 per long rest, and 1 hex per long rest. When you want it, it's nice.


Reactions don't look too bad at 7, but by 10, depending on what Runes you (re) pick they're starting to add up as well, so things like Sentinel start to look pretty iffy as well. If you are getting two short rests per day, and 4 to 6 encounters per day, Sentinel may or may not give you what you need.

Given that some Runes are based off of Con there's an argument to be made to pump this as opposed to feats... but from level 7 to 9 if you picked Cloud Rune it's possible to have no runes based off of Con. I am at level 8 and have Cloud Fire and Storm. While I like storm, I think maybe I should have gone with Hill. But if you like to support the party it is really nice to, as a reaction, give someone advantage or disadvantage. I don't use it that often, but when I do it's quite nice.

Now, I chose to double down on pushing and shoving. So I took skill expert at 8. With deception as the skill so with Cloud, I am now a BS artist: advantage on proficient Deception checks. :smallbiggrin:

I put CON at 16. Not sure if I'll boost it again.

[stoutstien]

Sentinel, if your bonus action is busy then start looking into how to make your reaction a bit more busy.

The long/short of the RK is that the reaction is pretty crowded as well. 3 different runes use it and runic shield. All are solid options and provide better mitigation than sentinel anyways.

Not a bad option but you definitely get less from it then say a barbarian that probably has nothing to do but OAs anyways.

[LudicSavant]

So I'm looking at the Rune Knight, which is obviously a solid subclass even if you're not going to grapple. But it's very Bonus Action Heavy; it doesn't really start out that way, so I can see people picking something like XBE or PAM then realizing about level 7 that maybe they've picked a trap option.

Assuming 2 Short Rests, over the course of an adventuring day a 7th level RK has
3 Second Winds,
6 Hill/ Storm Runes, and
3 Giant's Might, which continue to scale with proficiency.
So 12+ for the remainder of your career.

Is it worth even taking a feat that uses your bonus action when you might use it half the time depending on length of combats, ability to use some of these out of combat, etc?
What feats would be worth taking?

Reactions don't look too bad at 7, but by 10, depending on what Runes you (re) pick they're starting to add up as well, so things like Sentinel start to look pretty iffy as well.

Given that some Runes are based off of Con there's an argument to be made to pump this as opposed to feats... but from level 7 to 9 if you picked Cloud Rune it's possible to have no runes based off of Con.

Anyway, I'm sure lots of people have played these. Thoughts? Experiences?

Polearm Master is worse for Fighters than it is for, say, Barbarians or Paladins, and this is even more true for Rune Knights with their arsenal of effective bonus actions and reactions.

So what do you take instead? Well, let's see...

- Alert: Think of it this way, every time this prevents Surprise? It provided a bigger benefit than Action Surge that combat. Every time it turns losing initiative into winning initiative, relative to Team Monster? Same thing! Given how hard a Rune Knight can shut enemies down, being able to go before them may very well mean they don't get to do anything at all.

Also, it prevents advantage and disadvantage from cancelling out when both sides can't see each other (such as in a fog cloud).

- Sharpshooter & Great Weapon Master: Scale well with a Fighter's many smaller attacks. News at 11.

- Elven Accuracy: Great for the Dex-based Rune Knights in teams that regularly generate Advantage.

- Ritual Caster: Phantom Steed, Find Familiar, Magic Mouth, Rary's Telepathic Bond... huge value to be had here for a martial who properly knows their way around wizardry.

- Fey-Touched: Having a teleport up your sleeve is always a nice thing. Hex is a per-attack bonus (so scales well with many attacks) and gives enemies Disadvantage to resist your grappling. Alternatively, Gift of Alacrity provides a nearly-Alert-sized initiative boost.

- Skill Expert: Boosts your main stat while also making your grappling much more reliable. Alternatively, can be used for other skills (such as anything that you get Advantage on from a Rune).

- Resilient: Because failing saves is bad, mkay.

- Gift of the Chromatic Dragon: This provides a per-attack damage buff, which is good for Fighters. Also, diet Absorb Elements (even diet absorb elements is really good). Still competes with your Reaction though.

- Mobile: I've seen grappler wombo combo RKs occasionally take this to make sure that difficult terrain can't slow down their terrifying cheese grating, and also give them a bigger base number to multiply when they're like, quadruple moving.

- Tavern Brawler: Str/Con boosting half-feat that helps grappling.

- Crusher/Piercer/Slasher: These half-feats all scale favorably with high numbers of attacks.

- Gunner: Your weapon damage die actually matters if you have a large number of attacks, and this'll take you from a 1d8 longbow to a 1d12 gun (essentially getting +2 damage per hit and +4 per crit). Also, lets you shoot in melee no problem, and (unlike CBE) boosts your main stat (which can potentially get you another +1 damage per hit, and more hits from greater accuracy).

- Inspiring Leader: If you have the Charisma to qualify, and your party doesn't already have temp HP generation, this is quite good.

- Lucky: Rerolls are nice. Better in short adventuring days than long ones, though.

- Dragon Fear: +1 Str that a Gem Dragonborn Rune Knight might consider for managing mobs. The DC is Cha-based, but Fighters are SAD enough that you can at least afford a 14, and you can actually do something with Cha-based skills because of Advantage from runes.

- Heavy Armor Master: Another +1 Str half-feat. Folks say this doesn't scale, but it sort of does -- higher levels enemies are more likely to have more attacks, or be accompanied by more mooks.

- Wood Elf Magic: Pass Without Trace (for devastating surprise), Longstrider (you like mobility boosts), and Guidance (which you can spam freely since nothing competes for your Concentration, and can combo with your runic bonuses to skills). Remember, in tier 1 and 2, Guidance is a similar sized bonus to Expertise, and Advantage is bigger than Expertise, and Fire Rune gives expertise on tool checks. Wood Elves only though.

- +2 Con will raise the DC for Stone Rune and Fire Rune, in addition to the usual benefits.

[tokek]

I have played one to currently 15th level. The BA glut gets even more pronounced at 15th level as you get 5 runes with two uses each and enough Giant's Might to use it pretty much every combat.

Your reaction gets really congested too.

Things which really survived the test of time as Feats and are still very worthwhile:

Lucky. Top pick this one - take it and you will never regret it.
Sharpshooter / GWM depending on your build choice. I took sharpshooter on a dart thrower build
Resilient Wisdom. Actually Resilient anything that would disable you on a failed save. Combine with Lucky and later on Indomitable to be really hard to disable with control effects.

Polearm master is not a waste - even at 15th level sometimes that's my best BA option or Reaction option.

I was allowed to take Squire of Solamnia feat and popping advantage on an attack to land your Fire Rune is well worth having if you can. The mount part of it is situational at first and then not really useful at higher levels when no mount can survive the hostile environment of high tier encounters.

I sometimes wish I had Mobile feat but the dart throwing lets my character still contribute when a pure melee build would be struggling.

[LudicSavant]

Polearm master is not a waste - even at 15th level sometimes that's my best BA option or Reaction option.

True, but let's take a closer look.

Unlike many characters, Fighters make enough attacks that their weapon damage die actually matters. If we're using Polearm Master, that means we're dropping from a greatsword to a glaive (or from a warhammer to a spear), which means we're losing some damage on every normal attack. 1.5 damage on every would-be greatsword attack (3 on crits, more with GWF style), or 1 damage on every warhammer attack (2 on crits).

This might not sound like a lot, but level 15 Fighters make a lot of attacks, so this can start to add up.

Also, you'll be using that PAM bonus action only "sometimes." At this level, Giant's Might is coming up 5 times a day (so, 1 round out of almost every combat). Then you've got Hill Rune and Storm Rune and Second Wind. If you took Great Weapon Master, that'll be generating bonus action attacks sometimes too! If you make 3 attacks, you've got a ~14% chance of activating that, ~26% with Advantage, 46% on an Action Surge. Plus any procs you get from knocking foes to 0 HP. And of course that's more attacks that keep adding on that bonus 1.5-3 damage per hit.

Meanwhile, the bonus action attack you add isn't worth a whole ton of damage since Fighters don't have big per-hit damage boosters, unless like, you somehow found yourself a flametongue glaive. Then again, it can still be like, 1d4+15 damage, plus any bonuses from magic weapons, so it certainly ain't nothin'.

So basically you want it to be at a point where not only is it your best BA or Reaction sometimes, but also is your best BA or Reaction often enough to break even with a larger weapon damage die, and to additionally do it often enough to catch up to the value of whatever feat it's replacing.

What do you think?

[Skrum]

There's a player at my table that has a rune knight, and yeah, he mentions being quite reaction-heavy. To me, that's one of the markers of rune knight being a good subclass - it actually uses all of the available action econ. This is subtly one of the ways the casters become so much more effective; they have options at every part of the round. But I digress.

But I think your instincts about the bonus action are correct. When I'm making builds, I try to avoid combining too many "set up" moves like hunter's mark or hexblade's curse with two weapon fighting, martials arts, polearm master, etc. While extra damage and lots of attacks are a great combination on paper, in reality most combats last 3 rounds or less. That's 3 potential bonus action attacks. If you start adding bonus action abilities on top, your number of bonus action attacks very quickly becomes barely worthwhile.

A rune knight is in the exact same place. They have hill rune + giant's might, giving them 2 rounds of set up. Unless you know your DM favors marathon combats, you are not going to get mileage out of PAM.

So, my pick for feats would be
ASI. Get max str. Rune Knights get a lot of tools, and work great "out of the box." Unlike most other martial classes, they don't really need additional mechanics in the form of feats to function. Thus, getting to 20 str ASAP is very attractive.

Mobility. RK's gravitate towards tanking, for obvious reasons, and being where you need to be is an underrated aspect of tanking. Mobility is very handy for that.

Fighting Initiate: defensive fighting style is very attractive on tanks. But dueling fighting style is very attractive if you're gonna be using a shield. Well, get 'em both. This is a very vanilla, not-flashy option, but will absolutely make you more effective.

Skill Expert: this is my go-to feat to bump my initial 17 in my main stat to an 18 on martial characters (casters get the superior fey touched). Half-feat, extra proficiency, and on a rune knight, I'm probably taking expertise with athletics for an effectively unbeatable grapple. Second choice is perception, just cause perception is probably the most-used skill.

Crusher/Piercer/Slasher: Assuming you're using point buy and have a 17 in str at level 1, you'll need something to get to 18. I think these feats are all inferior to Skill Expert, but it's more a matter of personal preference. Crusher is by far the best of the 3, if you go this route. If you're not using point buy and don't have a starting 17 in str, skip this and go straight to ASI's.

[Dr.Samurai]

I'm currently playing a Rune Knight now (level 12) and I definitely run into Reaction and Bonus Action clog.

I did grab Mobile as one of my feats, and Great Weapon Master as another.

Bonus Actions

1. Giant Might - I don't always pop Giant Might first thing in combat. If I feel a section of the map will benefit from being large (like blocking an entrance or something), I'll use it. If I need to control enemy movement (like grabbing a large dragon that kept flying away), I'll use it. I like to use it as well to knock giant's Prone for my power attacks, but if the Open Hand Monk stuns or knocks them down, Giant Might isn't always necessary for that.

2. Hill Giant Rune - This is a strong feature, so I like to use this whenever we're in a tough fight. But we have several encounters (3-4) before a short rest, so once it's used, I'm not seeing it again for some time. As an example, I just used it in an encounter with 2 frost giants, 2 fire giants, and a handful of ogres. Since then, we've had another encounter, and are now in a third encounter. So I do use it, but I definitely have other encounters where it's not an option.

3. Great Weapon Master - This comes up fairly frequently. Between knocking enemies Prone, or the monk Stunning them or knocking them Prone, Advantage+3 attacks means I crit often, which procs the bonus action attack. And since we're fighting giants, Power Attacking + 2d6 from Waythe means I kill a lot of giants, so the bonus action attack is proc'ed that way as well.

4. Charger feat - Giants can start combat from quite a ways a way, and also their corpses are difficult terrain for us. So I have gotten a lot of use out of Mobile+Charger. A fair number of our encounters have occurred in large halls with various corridors leading into them, and having to cross the space to engage more giants entering from another side requires double movement (or more if there's a bunch of dead giants in the way). So I have actually used this more than just closing the distance at the start of combat. Between Waythe (giant-slaying greatsword), Power Attack, and Charger's +5 damage, a Charger attack can deal between 20-30% of a giant's HP total, and potentially knock them Prone (Waythe), debuffing them against the much more mobile Monk and the Druid.

5. Storm Giant Rune - I have not used this often, and I think it's for two reasons: if I can take the GWM attack, I'll choose that over activating Storm Giant Rune. Also, by the time I've activated Giant Might or Hill Rune, or I've Dashed to engage and used Charger, or I've gotten GWM attacks off, it doesn't seem necessary to activate Storm Giant Rune at that time. In addition to that, it requires my Reaction to use the benefit, and I have other reactions I want to take as well. Which leads me to:

Reactions

1. Cloud Rune - This rune is ridiculous, and I've killed many enemies using this Rune, partly because giant's deal a lot of damage, but I also pay attention to how may hits enemies have taken. Love this Rune, can't wait until I have 2 uses per Short Rest. I routinely go to use this Rune only to see that I've already checked it off because it's been used lol.

2. Stone Rune - Another great rune. It forces a Wisdom saving throw, but the effect is powerful. I used this on a second dragon to knock it out of the sky. Because this allows for a saving throw, and I haven't pumped my Constitution, I use Cloud Rune before this.

3. Runic Shield - The running gag is that I can somehow see the DM's dice rolls, because I have stopped so many critical hits from hitting our monk. Unfortunately, this is often all I can accomplish, because the enemies tend to hit even with Disadvantage. One time this actually turned the enemies hit into a Critical Hit, which was annoying.

4. Storm Giant Rune - Once activated, I mostly use this to grant the Sharpshooter ranger Advantage on attacks. Our fights haven't forced a lot of saving throws, and it seems like the giants still hit us with Disadvantage so this seems like the best use.

5. Opportunity Attacks - Our DM uses Morale, so it's possible that enemies we're engaged with will actually try to retreat. Now, he often has them Disengage, so I don't always get opportunity attacks.

I think even with those bonus actions, I'd still recommend Great Weapon Master. Large size means you can knock Huge enemies prone and get that sweet bonus damage on those attacks more reliably.

[Skrum]

Heh, I almost mentioned Charger - when the rune knight player was picking a feat, and it came down to mobility or charger, I tried to sell him on Charger. I thought he'd get more fun/impactful use out of it. Now that he's played for a while with mobility, I do think mobility is the "smart" pick. Flat +10 ft of movement and easy disengage is something that'll come up all the time while Charger is more situational.

[Dr.Samurai]

Heh, I almost mentioned Charger - when the rune knight player was picking a feat, and it came down to mobility or charger, I tried to sell him on Charger. I thought he'd get more fun/impactful use out of it. Now that he's played for a while with mobility, I do think mobility is the "smart" pick. Flat +10 ft of movement and easy disengage is something that'll come up all the time while Charger is more situational.
Yeah, Mobile has been great. But I've actually been getting more use out of the Dash benefit than the Disengage benefit. The +10ft Speed is awesome, and these two points have helped me to keep up with a rather mobile party. The monk has 50ft speed and can run on water and along walls. The ranger has 40ft speed, ignores difficult terrain, and has a climb and swim speed. The druid has a 25ft speed and... well, he can sometimes lag behind. When he goes Beast mode though, he's mobile.

I can leap over a lot of difficult terrain, which combos well with 40ft speed, but I'm not optimized for Jumping, so I can't clear the height of giant corpses, which makes sense. But ignoring difficult terrain when I Dash means I can clamber over those corpses at speed, so I've gotten a lot of use out of it. Charger letting me attack at the end has been great, but if I had to lose a feat, I'd choose to lose Charger. But I do think it's better than a lot of people give it credit for.

I'm pretty aggressive when I play though so I probably don't even think to Disengage when I should lol.

[tokek]

True, but let's take a closer look.

Unlike many characters, Fighters make enough attacks that their weapon damage die actually matters. If we're using Polearm Master, that means we're dropping from a greatsword to a glaive (or from a warhammer to a spear), which means we're losing some damage on every normal attack. 1.5 damage on every would-be greatsword attack (3 on crits, more with GWF style), or 1 damage on every warhammer attack (2 on crits).

This might not sound like a lot, but level 15 Fighters make a lot of attacks, so this can start to add up.

Also, you'll be using that PAM bonus action only "sometimes." At this level, Giant's Might is coming up 5 times a day (so, 1 round out of almost every combat). Then you've got Hill Rune and Storm Rune and Second Wind. If you took Great Weapon Master, that'll be generating bonus action attacks sometimes too! If you make 3 attacks, you've got a ~14% chance of activating that, ~26% with Advantage, 46% on an Action Surge. Plus any procs you get from knocking foes to 0 HP. And of course that's more attacks that keep adding on that bonus 1.5-3 damage per hit.

Meanwhile, the bonus action attack you add isn't worth a whole ton of damage since Fighters don't have big per-hit damage boosters, unless like, you somehow found yourself a flametongue glaive. Then again, it can still be like, 1d4+15 damage, plus any bonuses from magic weapons, so it certainly ain't nothin'.

So basically you want it to be at a point where not only is it your best BA or Reaction sometimes, but also is your best BA or Reaction often enough to break even with a larger weapon damage die, and to additionally do it often enough to catch up to the value of whatever feat it's replacing.

What do you think?

That is all reasonable - but on a thrown weapon build build the spear is a good one-handed weapon choice because it counts as a thrown weapon which eliminates a lot of hand-economy issues. Can have an empty hand for grappling then instantly have the weapon in hand if instead I decide to weapon attack or even decide in the spur of the moment to go with dart attacks instead - because grabbing the weapon is part of making the attack

Also has a weapon with a decent chunk of bonus damage - so that has an impact on the value of the sheer number of attacks.

But actually while its not great - its not too bad because Fighters have Feat Glut issues at high level. Having one lower value Feat is not such a big problem when you have all the good ones plus have filled out with ASI already. It was a much better feat at lower levels than it is when you have 3 base attacks, but its far from horrible having it. One of the structural problems with the Fighter class is that you run out of really great feats to take and as you level up you end up taking feats which are less and less key to the build because you just get so many.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Another vote here for Skill Expert/Athletics, Mobile and getting your Con score up.

I'd note that there's a bit of synergy between Mobile and Athletics/grappling, as well. Getting where you need to be as a grappler/melee PC is half the battle, especially because Str-based PCs are usually pretty bad at (longer) ranged attacks.

If you play up through Tier 3, you'll get enough runes to check out Stone rune. I'm a big proponent of Stone rune's reaction disable ability (120' darkvision is nice too!). If you get to a 16-18 Con, your save DC is respectable enough that you can actually land this effect often enough to make a difference - and it's a nasty effect (especially for using only a Reaction). Breaks concentration of the target, no new saves on taking damage, and unlike Banishment they hang around for "free hits" (especially if you shove them Prone). Combo this with the Storm rune's disadvantage on all the following saves after the first, and it becomes reasonably difficult to escape from once you land it.

Stone rune alone makes the investment in a higher Con worthwhile IMHO. But of course, more HP & better Con saves are always welcome too!

[Mud Puppy]

In play right now as a Goliath with Great Weapon Fighting style, I took Crusher at 4th and then pumped up Strength to 20 using the level 6 and 8 ASIs. I'm looking to take GWM at my next ASI.

[Dr.Samurai]

I'd note that there's a bit of synergy between Mobile and Athletics/grappling, as well. Getting where you need to be as a grappler/melee PC is half the battle, especially because Str-based PCs are usually pretty bad at (longer) ranged attacks.
That reminds me... you move at half speed when grappling someone, and with Mobile, that generally means moving 20ft instead of 15ft, which is nice.

Stone rune alone makes the investment in a higher Con worthwhile IMHO. But of course, more HP & better Con saves are always welcome too!
Good idea, thanks for sharing!

[Bosh]

Well when going for bonus actions it can be good to have more than one thing you can use the bonus action for IF it's not the sort of bonus action that you feel obligated to use every single combat around (like PAM). Something like tavern brawler is fine since you get useful stuff even if you're not grappling (the stat boost and the very on flavor ability to pick up large things and hit people with them when you're large).

[tokek]

Well when going for bonus actions it can be good to have more than one thing you can use the bonus action for IF it's not the sort of bonus action that you feel obligated to use every single combat around (like PAM). Something like tavern brawler is fine since you get useful stuff even if you're not grappling (the stat boost and the very on flavor ability to pick up large things and hit people with them when you're large).

Always discuss this with your DM before taking it but tavern brawler can be a really good pick if it gives you proficiency in oversized weapons.

Generally as a DM I would not grant proficiency in oversized weapons like an ettin's morningstar. Its not listed on the martial weapons list so you are not proficient. But as an improvised weapon I think I would allow it and the feat grants proficiency with improvised weapons.

[Clause]

you can try the feats from dragonlance.
knight of the sword, is a true diamond.

aberrant dragonmark(eberron) is absolut power, specialy if your DM gives you the 10th lvl power.

piercer, will be fabulous if you have a war pick.

blessing of the X dragon. a excelent choice too