Superiority Dice vs. Psionic Energy Dice

[Nagog]

I've been delving into the Fighter lately as a class, and discovered an interesting disparity: Battle Masters get 4 Superiority Dice, and gain one more at 7th and 15th level, for a total of 6 dice, and they refresh on a Short or Long rest

Psi Warriors get Psionic Energy dice equal to double proficiency bonus, as well as 1 free one as a bonus action, all replenished on a Long Rest. This means your budget for these dice are 5 at 1st level at 13 by 20th level.

The UA Psionic system had a scaling dice that didn't get expended on use, but could be "burned out" if used too effectively too often.

If you were to swap another Dice Resource system to allow for Battle Master (or other martials) to use Maneuvers more frequently, which system would you use? Why?

[Skrum]

Neither of those options, but instead, a third way...

I would favor a "1 minute cooldown" system. Basically, re-creating encounter-based powers without having to make a whole new unit of time to manage. Tons of spells have a 1 minute duration, so DMs are used to making judgement calls about how long it takes for a minute to pass.

To me, martial powers make a lot more intuitive sense as powers that can be used quite frequently. On top of the that, most of the powers martials get now would be absolutely fine if they were available to use 1/minute.

[Trask]

Neither of those options, but instead, a third way...

I would favor a "1 minute cooldown" system. Basically, re-creating encounter-based powers without having to make a whole new unit of time to manage. Tons of spells have a 1 minute duration, so DMs are used to making judgement calls about how long it takes for a minute to pass.

To me, martial powers make a lot more intuitive sense as powers that can be used quite frequently. On top of the that, most of the powers martials get now would be absolutely fine if they were available to use 1/minute.

IIRC WotC's Diablo adaptation for 2e used powers with these sort of timers; once every 10 combat rounds or something to that effect. The existing language would be "once each time you roll initiative" which sounds elegant, until you have any abilities that could have use outside of a combat situation.

[Derges]

What about recharging on a d8 when empty and making an attack roll?

[Amechra]

Honestly, what I want is the playtest maneuver system back.

In playtest packet #5, they were going to give martial characters a scaling pool of d6s that they could add to damage, with Fighters and Monks (plus some Rogues) getting to spend them on maneuvers as well. This pool recharged every turn, and maneuvers scaled off of how many dice you spent on them. In general, maneuvers were less about damage (since, you know, that was the default use of those dice) and more about utility - for example, you could pick up stuff like dodge rolls, lunges, and area attacks as maneuvers.

(One other nice thing? The feature that every Fighter got at first level was the ability to parry as a reaction. You rolled your Skill Die (this was when they were testing using Proficiency as a die), added any number of damage dice, and canceled that much damage. If you wouldn't take damage, the attack didn't hit.)

[Skrum]

Honestly, what I want is the playtest maneuver system back.

In playtest packet #5, they were going to give martial characters a scaling pool of d6s that they could add to damage, with Fighters and Monks (plus some Rogues) getting to spend them on maneuvers as well. This pool recharged every turn, and maneuvers scaled off of how many dice you spent on them. In general, maneuvers were less about damage (since, you know, that was the default use of those dice) and more about utility - for example, you could pick up stuff like dodge rolls, lunges, and area attacks as maneuvers.

(One other nice thing? The feature that every Fighter got at first level was the ability to parry as a reaction. You rolled your Skill Die (this was when they were testing using Proficiency as a die), added any number of damage dice, and canceled that much damage. If you wouldn't take damage, the attack didn't hit.)

That also sounds like it could be awesome - though I would still want it paired with stronger 1/minute or short rest powers. If a power is available literally every turn, there's a hard ceiling on how impactful that ability can be. Little bit of movement, extra reach, a trip, that sort of thing, because it's literally spammable.

I want fighters to have those powers, AND the ability to shake up the battlefield on the occasion.

[Sigreid]

I'd keep the superiority dice the same and let then use their maneuvers at will without needing to spend dice. So the dice would be an enhancer, not a requirement to use the effect.

[Nagog]

I'd keep the superiority dice the same and let then use their maneuvers at will without needing to spend dice. So the dice would be an enhancer, not a requirement to use the effect.

What about for the ones that depend on the dice to function, such as Parry, Evasive Footwork, the Skill maneuvers, and the like? Would those be a must for expending them?

Also, some maneuvers, such as Riposte and Lunging attack, are potentially very powerful if used repeatedly. Not to say that Fighters can't use the extra boost, but they are fairly exploitable if their use is unlimited.

[JNAProductions]

What about for the ones that depend on the dice to function, such as Parry, Evasive Footwork, the Skill maneuvers, and the like? Would those be a must for expending them?

Also, some maneuvers, such as Riposte and Lunging attack, are potentially very powerful if used repeatedly. Not to say that Fighters can't use the extra boost, but they are fairly exploitable if their use is unlimited.

Lunging is the example you use?
Not Menacing?

I can see Lunging being useful as part of a combo with PAM (strike them from 10'/15' away, so they have to walk into your reach and provoke an AoO) but for general usefulness, making every single attack a Wis Save vs. Frightened seems a lot more potent.

[ZRN]

Honestly, what I want is the playtest maneuver system back.

In playtest packet #5, they were going to give martial characters a scaling pool of d6s that they could add to damage, with Fighters and Monks (plus some Rogues) getting to spend them on maneuvers as well. This pool recharged every turn, and maneuvers scaled off of how many dice you spent on them. In general, maneuvers were less about damage (since, you know, that was the default use of those dice) and more about utility - for example, you could pick up stuff like dodge rolls, lunges, and area attacks as maneuvers.

The new cunning strikes in the most recent rogue playtest UA is kind of coming around full circle to this, letting you spend sneak attack dice on other effects.

[Sigreid]

What about for the ones that depend on the dice to function, such as Parry, Evasive Footwork, the Skill maneuvers, and the like? Would those be a must for expending them?

Also, some maneuvers, such as Riposte and Lunging attack, are potentially very powerful if used repeatedly. Not to say that Fighters can't use the extra boost, but they are fairly exploitable if their use is unlimited.

Haven't looked closely enough to know which ones require dice to affect, but yeah if say the maneuver only serves to add the die to some part of the attack, you'd have to spend a die to get that die effect. I don't see any reason to require a superiority die to try to trip someone for example.

[Nagog]

Lunging is the example you use?
Not Menacing?

I can see Lunging being useful as part of a combo with PAM (strike them from 10'/15' away, so they have to walk into your reach and provoke an AoO) but for general usefulness, making every single attack a Wis Save vs. Frightened seems a lot more potent.

That's fair: I compiled that list from a cursory glance, but even so a Range build can be pretty powerful.

Also, that Menacing build sounds pretty close to one of the base effects of Undead Warlock's Form of Dread. And considering it requires an attack roll and a saving throw, it wouldn't be as powerful as it would be clunky and poor game design, as now the Fighter's turn takes twice as long at least.

[JNAProductions]

That's fair: I compiled that list from a cursory glance, but even so a Range build can be pretty powerful.

Also, that Menacing build sounds pretty close to one of the base effects of Undead Warlock's Form of Dread. And considering it requires an attack roll and a saving throw, it wouldn't be as powerful as it would be clunky and poor game design, as now the Fighter's turn takes twice as long at least.

Sure, but that's a once-per-turn thing that also requires you to hit with an attack. It's also a long rest resource-not a SUPER limited one, but can't use it all day.

This would be up to five times per turn, every turn. In levels that commonly see play, you could be pretty reliably forcing two-three saves per turn, with TWF.

[Amechra]

That also sounds like it could be awesome - though I would still want it paired with stronger 1/minute or short rest powers. If a power is available literally every turn, there's a hard ceiling on how impactful that ability can be. Little bit of movement, extra reach, a trip, that sort of thing, because it's literally spammable.

I want fighters to have those powers, AND the ability to shake up the battlefield on the occasion.

Funnily enough, both Monks and Fighters kinda got that in that playtest packet - Monks got ki abilities (which were more like one-shot spells), while Fighters got Combat Surge (think Action Surge, but it also doubled the value of any martial damage die you rolled that turn, which both pumped up your damage AND made stuff like the Parry way stronger).

Rogues were actually a really interesting case - Sneak Attack was something most (not all) Rogues got, which doubled any damage dice you spent on attacks that fit the Sneak Attack criteria. Rakes (read: swashbucklers) replaced Sneak Attack with a reaction that imposed disadvantage on a melee or ranged attack made against you and the ability to learn a handful of maneuvers, and Assassins got Assassinate (when attacking a creature within 30ft that doesn't know that you're there, maximize your damage instead of rolling, and your target has to make a save vs. taking double damage).

...

One kinda weird thing I noticed when looking through that playtest packet was that there was a pretty clear divide between levels 1-10 and 11-20:

Fighters get Maneuvers in the first half and Combat Surge in the second half.
Monks get Maneuvers and their Ki abilities in the first half and their classic grab bag of abilities in the second half.
Rogues get their Skill Tricks in the first half and Ace in the Hole in the second half.
Martial characters cap out their martial damage dice pool at 11th level, with six dice, with later damage upgrades coming in the form of a big, flat bonus to damage.
Casters stopped getting lower level spell slots after 10th level (and their Deity/School choices were much more front-loaded).


It honestly would've been pretty neat if they'd actually leaned into that harder - have classes hit their caps in terms of hard numbers and combat options at the end of Tier 2, and then spend Tier 3 and 4 giving them features intended for more scaled-up adventures.