Top 10 level 4 spells at ECL 8 & 20

[Anthrowhale]

Continuing the series (0 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?657743-Top-10-cantrips),1 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?657825-Top-10-level-1-spells-at-ECL2-amp-20),2 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?658094-Top-10-level-2-spells-at-ECL-4-amp-20),3 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?658251-Top-10-level-3-spells-at-ECL6-amp-20)), we are attempting to nail down the top 10 level 4 spells at ECL 8 and 20. Questions/Comments/Thoughts on the below are welcome.

Some clarifying questions:
What level? Let's go with ECL8 and ECL20 (which is basically a limiting case). Note that bards don't quite get level 4 spells at ECL 8.
Essentials? Yes, let's include essentials like healing. There are many ways to find this in the game, but a list of 10 spells is also generous.
Combos? Yes, let's include relevant combos. These are most applicable in the ECL20 limit since often combos are incomplete at lower levels.
What about offbeat prestige classes giving early access? I'm happy to make a note about early access, but the general preference was to not include. I'm happy to make a note of it.
What level? For spells at different levels on different lists, it's the level on a core class or domain, and if that's not available on some other base class.

ECL8

W4O5 Polymorph (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm). Transmutation. For minute/level willing touched creature changes form to a wide array of creatures overwriting type, physical stats, size, and more. A ridiculously powerful spell with it's own handbook (https://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=519.0). As an alternative, D Enhance Wild Shape(Spell Compendium). Transmutation. For hour/level gain extraordinary abilities of wildshape form (or become a plant, Str+2, Dex+2, Con+2). Eggynack has indexed the possibilities (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?439991-Being-Everything-Eggynack-s-Comprehensive-Druid-Handbook), but the standouts are via aberration wildshape (a feat) giving Nilshai (extra standard actions/round), Dharculus (reside on ethereal plane), Dolgaunt (360' blindsight), and Grell (60' blindsight, immune illusions, 30'(perfect) flight, and with Venomfire you can get 10x +8 melee (1d4+1+paralysis+8d6 acid)). These benefits are eventually well-surpassed by Shapechange but at ECL8 they differ from Polymorph and are quite powerful. However, you can really only benefit from one or the other.
Wu Lesser Spirit Binding(Complete Arcane). Conjuration(Calling). Call, trap, and extract services from any 8HD- spirit {=Incorporeal Undead, Fey (Compendium (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?226612-3-5-The-Fey-Compendium)), Elemental, Astral forms/bodies, Spirit Subtype, Spirit Folk, Telthors, Spirit Creatures}. This provides access to a boatload of SLAs (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?248262-Shaman-Handbook-Oriental-Adventures&p=13489944#post13489944) including things like at-will fireball, cleric+wizard L6 casting, and caster level 8 shapechange (see the shapechange handbook (https://docs.google.com/document/d/127el4KqlL2ALu1chZ9WLPGFOu1InVTJ2pmxAmYAARbE/edit#) for inspiration). If there are ghosts in the campaign, that further broadens potential access to a ghost of any aberration, animal, dragon, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, or plant. Like lesser planar binding, there is a retribution clause for any creatures which survive their service. With highly permissive DM you might be able to instead abuse Lesser Planar Binding (https://dndtools.org/spells/players-handbook-v35--6/planar-binding-lesser--2422/) off the Demonologist lists for access to a broad set of SLAs (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?531126-Attempting-to-create-a-Planar-Binding-handbook-Need-some-help) although the revenge clause is again something to consider.
Sa Animate with the Spirit(Champions of Valor). Conjuration(Summoning)[Good]. For 10 minutes/level animate corpse with deity's chosen 6-HD good outsider. This varies between mediocre and amazing depending on whether the deity (i.e. the DM) goes with requests or not. With requests, looking at Eggynack's list (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?439991-Being-Everything-Eggynack-s-Comprehensive-Druid-Handbook) you get access to:

Emprix (https://web.archive.org/web/20161101181031/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20001101a): At will aid, continual flame, flare, cure light wounds, detect magic, dispel magic, holy aura, daylight, remove disease, remove fear, daze, charm person, suggestion, charm monster, confusion, emotion, 3/day mass charm, 1/month geas/quest, Always active: detect evil, detect chaos, see invisibility, and true seeing
Equinal: At will: aid, command, detect evil, detect magic, dimension door, dispel magic, fog cloud, light, magic circle against evil (self only), magic missile, and see invisibility; 1/day—slow and wall of stone
Holyphant: At will—blessed sight*, detect chaos, detect law, detect poison, detect thoughts, invisibility, know direction, see invisibility, suggestion, bless, light, greater teleport (self and up to 20 pounds of objects only); 3/day—cure moderate wounds, protection from evil; 1/day—banishment, flame strike, heal, raise dead.
Movanic Deva: At will—aid, consecrate, continual flame, create food and water, death ward, detect evil, discern lies, prayer, protection from arrows; 3/day—atonement, bless weapon, cure serious wounds, daylight, divination, ethereal jaunt, hallow, holy smite, neutralize poison, plane shift, remove curse, remove disease, remove fear; 1/day—commune, raise dead.

Without requests, you get outsiders like a lantern archon (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/archon.htm#lanternArchon) which "merely" give at-will continual flame for infinite wealth and incidentally reset the timeline for application of Last Breath. The timeline reset for Last Breath makes this superior to Lesser Planar Ally (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarAllyLesser.htm) which has broader applicability but costs significantly more to use. Revenance provides an alternative-if-weaker way to reset the Last Breath timeline.
With a highly restrictive DM, Summon Monster IV (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterIV.htm) provides no-nonsense access to a large number of lesser SLAs (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?255219-The-Summoner-s-Desk-Reference-D-amp-D-3-5).
D Last Breath(Spell Compendium). Transmutation. For 500gp reincarnates 1 round dead creature with no level loss. The first way to cure death, at half the price and a level earlier than Revivify. The chaotic mechanics of reincarnation add to the fun, especialy if you are a lessear aasimar. Gentle Repose increases time available. Revenance and Animate with the Spirit could potentially be used after an encounter to reset eligibility. At higher levels, Revivify (available via Planar Binding[[Trumpet Archon]) or Miracle appear superior.
CP Restoration (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/restoration.htm) Conjuration(Healing). Cure ability drain, level drain, level loss which are essential status effects to address. Level 3 on the healer list. At higher levels, a bone ring, Substitute Domain[Hope,Renewal], Limited Wish[Restoration], or Miracle[Restoration] are alternatives.
CW Dweomer of Transference (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/spells/dweomerOfTransference.htm). Evocation. For round/level all spells cast on psionic creature converted to power points. This spell means your psionic ally is immune to spells(!) and can nova every fight if you can charge up with SLAs. Other characters could benefit via Polymorph[Phthisic (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phthisic.htm)] (for example) followed by DoT. At higher level, the inability to benefit from friendly spells becomes more problematic, you can access this anyways via Greater Anyspell or Miracle, and alternatives like Skin of the Steel Dragon/Mystic Shield/Antimagic Field/Planar Bubble[Dead Magic] become available.


ECL20

BW Celerity(PHBII). Transmutation. As an immediate action, get a standard action and then be dazed until the end of your next turn. A good spell which becomes ridiculously good if you counter the daze. Fire-Souled creature (LA+3) is the best approach. Favor of the Martyr is solid. Even Quick Recovery can allow you to effectively cast 2 spells/round. This is also goes great with Twin Spell which enables an infinite action loop. A little bit to expensive at ECL8.
BW Ruin Delver's Fortune(Spell Compendium). Transmutation. For 1d4 rounds, 4d8+cha temp hps or one save+cha(luck) and evasion or immunity to poison or fear. Persistable and much more powerful when persisted.
C Consumptive Field (Spell Compendiuim). Necromancy[Death,Evil]. For level rounds, creatures in 30' radius with <0 hp Will or die. Death=>Str+2 +1d8 temp hp, +1 effective caster level max half original. This spell is ridiculous. Even unpersisted you can arrange a ritual sacrifice of toads (or whatever) to escalate daily buff caster levels. With persistence all of your spells have a significantly escalated caster level. The biggest issue here is friendly fire.
R Bloodfreeze Arrow(Champions of Ruin). Transmutation. As a swift action arrow or bolt target takes 2d6 cold and paralyzes fort negates. This can be cast offline in downtime with targeting much broader than Sacred Item. Cooperative Spell could potentially make the arrows coming from Ranger college have a 95% success rate.
B Fugue(Spell Compendium). Evocation[Sonic]. At a medium range in a 30' radius spread while concentrating up to 1 round/level every round every creature affected by perform check 3d6 nonlethal DC 15, 3d6 sonic DC 20, prone DC 25, nauseated DC 30, stunned DC 35, attack nearest target DC 40 Will negates. This works on essentially every creature, including Undead. It's also party friendly since you can flub perform checks on party members.
P Favor of the Martyr(Spell Compendium). Necromancy. At medium range for minute/level, creature is immune to nonlethal, charm, compulsion, pain, dazed, exhausted, fatigued, nauseated, sickened, staggered, stunned, unconscious at -1 to -9 hp and gains benefit of Endurance feat. The daze immunity in particular is extremely important to mitigate Celerity and defend against Bladesong. If Favor of the Martyr is available earlier (via an Archivist with good scroll access for example) than we are considering here, it's also a solid choice given that Bladesong, Celerity, and Wings of Flurry are all threatening daze sources.


ECL8&20

S Wings of Flurry(Races of the Dragon). Evocation[Force]. Enemies in 30' radius take d6/level force damage Refl half and daze Refl negate. This is both a universal party friendly 1-round crowd control and a scaling source of multitarget damage.
A Mindworms(Dragon #343). Conjuration[Evil]. Target takes 1d6 Wisdom damage Will half and loses 3 spell levels of targets choice Will negates. If three 1st level spells are drained, apply any metamagic for free in the next hour. This is a lower investment approach to using persistent spell than even Divine Metamagic since it requires a feat (Wormbound), but doesn't require an investment in Extra Turning. W.r.t. minions, a Banelar Naga (accessible via Lesser Spirit Binding) has 9 first level spells.
CW4D5 Wall of Sand(Spell Compendium). Conjuration(Creation)[Earth]. At medium range for concentration+round/level 10' square/level filled with 10' high sand blinding, deafening, suffocating, full round strength check 15 to move, no verbal spells and 20+spell level concentration effect for others. Devastating to weak creatures in tight confines resulting in no-save death. At higher levels this falls off somewhat due to Teleport SLAs and strength of creatures but if you combine it with Kelpstrand this is a good lockdown effect.
CD Sheltered Vitality(Spell Compendium). Abjuration. For minute/level living creature touched is immune to ability damage or drain. This is a late add to the list, primarily to counter things like L3 Shivering Touch although also useful vs. Shadow or Wraith types of enemies. Polymorphing into a cold type is an alternative, but relying on Sheltered Vitality instead allows you to fully use Polymorph.


A=Any, B=Bard, C=Cleric, D=Druid, O=dOmain, P=Paladin, R=Ranger, Sa=Sanctified, S=Sorcerer only, W=Wizard, Wu=Wu Jen

Count by:
class: 1A, 1.5B, 3.5C, 1.5D, 1P, 0.5R, 0.5Sa, 1S, 0.5Wu, 3W
school: 1 Abj, 3.5 Conj, 2 Evoc, 1 Necro, 2.5 Trans
modifier: 0.5 Calling, 1 Creation, 0.5 Death, 1 Earth, 1.5 Evil, 1 Force, 0.5 Good, 0.5 Healing, 0.5 Sonic, 0.5 Summoning,
source: 0.5 CA, 0.5 CoR, 0.5 CoV, 1 Dragon, 1 PHB, 0.5 PHBII, 0.5 Psionics Expanded, 1 RotD, 4.5 SC

Pass for now?
Freedom of Movement---we already have access via Heart of Water and eventually we could get a ring.
Heart of Earth--not a big enough effect.
Solid Fog--Wall of Sand is shapeable and provides straight up blindness, deafness, suffocation, and spell disruption.
Evard's Black Tentacles--Kelpstrand has a better grapple check (caster level+wis+bab vs. caster level+8).
Greater Mirror Image---a solid spell, but we can already mess with targeting using obscuring snow.
Lesser Holy Transformation--an otherwise-minor spell which provides the outsider subtype enabling polymorph[kelvezu]. A great effect but a bit niche.
Dimension Door---long range teleport. A great obstacle bypass spell, but we already have access to Shadow Jaunt via Heroics which gives close range teleport. Maybe that's good enough for now? If it's not, Animate with the Spirit[Equinal] may provide a minion with access to dimension door.
Celestial Brilliance---exceptionally long-lasting light that damages undead and evil outsiders. A great effect, but the damage is to slow to matter in most cases.
Divine Power---a great spell that can be persisted. It's only a modest bonus to hit though, incomparable with wraithstrike. Also, it's available via substitute domain from War, Competition, Orc, and Pride.
Divination---An information-from-deities spell. Potentially a strong effect, but it's available from Oracle (at level 3), Knowledge, and Pact domains.
Sacred Item---10d4 damage to touching undead/evil outsider/shapechanger. A great downtime effect, but to narrow.
Sheltered Vitality---immunity to ability damage and ability drain. Handy for a spelldancer or a corrupt/sanctified spellcaster. This feels a little to niche, but it would be a winner for certain builds.
Delay Death---No death from hp damage. Traditionally this is paired with Beastland Ferocity to keep going even at deeply negative hitpoints. However, the round/level duration is a drag, so you really need Ocular+persistent spell to effectively exploit this. That level of optimization is certainly possible but by then you are probably near immune to damage anyways.
Battle Arms---An extra 4 arms for gishing activities + full BAB. It's unquestionably potent in the role, but lower level spells seem to have maxed out the value of melee combat effectively already.
Flame Sands---15d6 fire for round/level. A potent encounter ender, but Boreal Wind's additional multitarget damage, crowd control, long range, and potential utility applications seems superior.
Dalamar's Lightning Lance---39d6 (~=136.5) damage to medium range is (eventually) very potent for a 4th level slot but it's only 11d6 at 8th level and it's not clear the lightning lance is a serious option at ECL20.
Death Ward---The plan is to have really good saves as a more universal counter. Hopefully that's good enough until you can afford Soulfire armor (25k gp => ECL11+)?
D4BCW5 Boreal Wind(Frostburn). Evocation[Cold]. For round+round/2 levels, 1d4/level max 15d4 damage + push back 3'/caster level in a 20'x20'xLong range Fort negates. The save to negate is a bummer, but the push back and multiples rounds of damage to long(!) range in a large area means this single spell make this a potential army killer. In the end though, you rarely need to kill large numbers of weak army members.
C4B6 Revenance(Spell Compendium). Conjuration(Healing). For minute/level cure ally death within round/level with no level loss and half hit points. This is an excellent combat healing spell accomplishing significant hit point recovery and resetting the timeline for Last Breath applicability. When a character has more than 300 hit points, this even cures more damage than Heal. This is left off the main list for now, since Animate with the Spirit provides a better Last Breath timeline reset.
Orb of Fire or Force. These are good damage causing spells, but Wings of Flurry does comparable damage + rider and targets multiple opponents.
DW Desert Burial(Dragon#331). Evocation. At medium range in 20' radius, bury creatures to neck rendering helpless Refl negates. A multitarget helpless effect is pretty amazing. Famously, this is a SR:No Save:No spell as used by a spellwarp sniper. The situationality of this spell (loose earth), is a bit to specialized even if the effect is amazing.
CW Mark of the Enlightened Soul(Dragon Magic). Transmutation[Good]. As a swift action for 3 rounds all spells are good and level max(3,spell slot sacrificed-1) spells do damage+50% vs evil. This is most potent on Shivering Touch, where the difference between ~10.5 damage and ~16 damage is highly notable. If you have Ocular spell, you can cast this while loading your eyes. Increases in caster level and metamagic feats offer more universal alternatives to this spell.
BW Shadow Conjuration (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowConjuration.htm). Illusion(Shadow). Mimic any Conjuration(Summoning) or Conjuration(Calling) wizard spell of L3- except with only a standard action to cast and V,S components. This is subtle, because Anyspell obviates much of the spell access provided. However, the ability to avoid material components makes war spells from Dragon#309 valid, although you must pay a feat to get them on list. The two relevant spells are "Summon the Pack and Herd" and "Summon Monstrous Horde" which provide access to 200(!) L2 SNA creatures or L2 SMII creatures (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?255219-The-Summoner-s-Desk-Reference-D-amp-D-3-5&p=13865609#post13865609). The creatures only last 8 rounds, but quantity really does have a quality of its own. In the end, doesn't quite make the cut, but very good for a few levels at ECL8.
BO4W5 Dominate Person (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dominatePerson.htm) Enchantment(Compulsion)[Mind-Affecting]. For day/level humanoid does as you command Will negates. The first domination effect available at ECL8 via the Domination domain. Necrotic Domination is a notable alternative but harder to use in combat. Domination isn't to much more powerful than Charm or Suggestion, so the scope restriction to humanoids makes this unappealing.
DW Friendly Fire(Exemplars of Evil). Abjuration. As an immediate action for one attack or for round/level redirect ranged attacks. This is persistable. It's a fantastic spell, but AC optimization partially compensates.
W Arcane Eye (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/arcaneEye.htm). Divination. After 10 minutes casting, for minute/level invisible eye moves 30'/round and sees as you while you concentrate. An expendable super-scout. Another great spell, but access to scouting minions is available.
O3CW4 Dimensional Anchor (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionalAnchor.htm). Abjuration. A relatively unique effect which keeps the bad guys from being able to escape via the very common Greater Teleport SLA. This is a bit to expensive at low levels but seems to become a critical tool at higher levels. This is actually available at level 3 via the portal domain. We're skipping here since Bladesong works in melee, Greater Anyspell works once level 6 spells become available, and other options (Dimensional Lock, Energy Transformation Field) work at higher levels.
Charm Monster. For in-combat use L2 Suggestion has a much better save. At high levels, L9 Mindrape is more effective. Out of combat, L6 Dream Casting can replicate Charm Monster amongst others. That leaves a potential 4 character levels of use which Animate With the Spirit[Emprix] can potentially cover.
Otiluke's Suppressing Field. With a high caster level, this is pretty amazing. However, Dweomer of Transference hard locks all spells.

[Fero]

More to think about

*****top tier*****

1. Enhance Wild Shape: This is a fantastic upgrade for druids. Get day long invisibilty and magic immunity through Will o' the Wisp (aberrant wild shape) and much, much more.

2. Shadow Conjuration: Discussions of this spell usually beco e SCM optimization discussions but it is fantastic in its own right. Vastly increase spells available to spontaneous casters. Add significant spontaneity to prepared casters. Allows clerics, specialists, etc. to back door into large portions of the wizard/sorc list. Bypass various material components, casting time, and feat requirements. Mimic War Spells from Dragon 309 to throw a few hundred Summons onto the battlefield as a standard action, etc.

*****Worth Considering******

1. Dweomer of Transference: The ability to turn spells into PP i, I am fairly certain, highly abusable.

2. Giant Vermin: The ability to throw down colossal creatures at mid levels is amazing.

3. Imprison Possessor: Can extend the duration of possession to infinate.

4. Minor Creation: Bucketloads of abuse potential. Poisonous bucketloads.

5. Mnemonic Enhancer: Useful for all sorts of cool spell list manipulation.

6. Suspension: in terms of raw power, lifting thousands of pounds for days is very impressive.

7. Stone Metamorphosis: The power of this spell is limited to how your DM defines "rock." Is voidstone a rock? If so, have fun.

**** Worth Reconsidering*****

1. Heart of Earth: This is solid temp HP that turns into DR and can arguably pseudo-stack with itself due to how placing multiples of the same spell on a target works. HP may not be glamorous, but HP is essential.

2. Black Tentacles: The grapple checks are only limited by CL and can therefore be very high.

[Anthrowhale]

As always, a key question is: What to drop in favor of new things?



1. Enhance Wild Shape: This is a fantastic upgrade for druids. Get day long invisibilty and magic immunity through Will o' the Wisp (aberrant wild shape) and much, much more.

This is kind of a tough one on a universal list, because it naturally gets compared to Polymorph which is a super-powerful spell. It's clearly different, so it need not compare directly. I'll need to study the range of forms a bit.


2. Shadow Conjuration: Discussions of this spell usually beco e SCM optimization discussions but it is fantastic in its own right. Vastly increase spells available to spontaneous casters. Add significant spontaneity to prepared casters. Allows clerics, specialists, etc. to back door into large portions of the wizard/sorc list. Bypass various material components, casting time, and feat requirements. Mimic War Spells from Dragon 309 to throw a few hundred Summons onto the battlefield as a standard action, etc.

Ah, very nice. I hadn't quite appreciated the scope of utility spells in the conjuration[creation] L3- list and the war spells are pretty over the top. 200 hippogriffs for 8 rounds sounds ... impressive. This seems plausible for the ECL8 list.


1. Dweomer of Transference: The ability to turn spells into PP i, I am fairly certain, highly abusable.

Probably, not sure.


2. Giant Vermin: The ability to throw down colossal creatures at mid levels is amazing.

Is it worthwhile at ECL20? Definitely not at ECL8.


3. Imprison Possessor: Can extend the duration of possession to infinate.

It looks potent with Magic Jar, but I'll evaluate at the next level.


4. Minor Creation: Bucketloads of abuse potential. Poisonous bucketloads.

This appears well-dominated by Shadow Conjuration.


5. Mnemonic Enhancer: Useful for all sorts of cool spell list manipulation.

I'm not quite seeing it. Explain?


6. Suspension: in terms of raw power, lifting thousands of pounds for days is very impressive.

Where is this one?


7. Stone Metamorphosis: The power of this spell is limited to how your DM defines "rock." Is voidstone a rock? If so, have fun.

Probably not due to the monetary value clause.


1. Heart of Earth: This is solid temp HP that turns into DR and can arguably pseudo-stack with itself due to how placing multiples of the same spell on a target works. HP may not be glamorous, but HP is essential.

Consumptive Field seems to give way more temp hp?


2. Black Tentacles: The grapple checks are only limited by CL and can therefore be very high.
Why would I use a 4th level spell when I can use a 2nd level spell that grapples harder instead?

[Quertus]

Ah, I see you say it's when the spell first appears, so that's a reason not to include Animate Dead on this list. Fair enough.

I'm surprised you didn't list Dimensional Anchor. That spell has received a lot of virtual ink, and has seen play at my tables, too. What do we have to fill this niche, of preventing foes from using extradimensional movement?

I'm less surprised that Restoration didn't make the cut (most needs can be handled earlier and cheaper). Or Remove Curse (fewer workarounds for this one, but very situational) for that matter.

I'm not surprised at all that Stoneskin isn't on the list. Although, to be pedantic, in a combo with something (like Tainted Sorcerer or Blood Component) that removes the cost, or at a table where WBL is part of the physics of the universe, it's probably not so bad.

Speaking of pedantic, I hadn't noticed it on previous lists, but you used "to" instead of "too" in Celerity, Celestial Brilliance, Sacred Item, and Sheltered Vitality. And you didn't update your Bard for ECL 8.

Why is Celerity too expensive at ECL 8? Is your logic, "you're spending your highest level slots to cast more lower level slots"? If that's the argument, I'm not sure how well it holds - see the Fireball conversation from the previous thread, where casting 2 fireballs now is often much better than casting most any 1 of these 4th level spells. Yes, you can burn through slots quickly, but it's just an option in your toolkit, a way to handle those pesky ECL +3 encounters, to handle something your party is particularly weak against, to help counter a bad roll (party fighter taken out on bad save roll on round 1), or to stick a spell you need to work this round (including one that was inexplicable counterspelled - the famed OotS counterspell encounter could have gone much differently had Celerity been used).

One last silly bit of pedantry: for Freedom of Movement, you talk about the fact that one could just get a Ring. But one cannot make said Ring without Freedom of Movement, making Freedom of Movement still one of the top 10 spells if that Ring is a must-have item. In other words, these spells seem biased towards the individual, rather than the big picture of society. This feels like Chaos's list of top 10 spells, and Law demands an equal say! (that would be blue, but it felt more appropriate as lawful evil text, the blue is just implied).

[pabelfly]

No Orb of X spells on the list? Targets touch AC, ignores spell resistance, and saving throws only negate some effects but not the damage. Great stuff for a blaster.

There are four worth consideration, in my opinion - Orb of Fire, Cold, Electricity and Force. Fire, Cold, and Electricity have good element-specific metamagics that help with immunities. They also cap at 15d6, which is a nice damage cap to start with metamagic. Orb of Force is my personal preference though - while it only caps at 10d6, there are few creatures that resist Force and it's a nice counterpart to Wings of Flurry, since adding modifiers to Force damage, like Argent Savant, or Force caster level boost the two of them.

[Eldan]

The main reason why boreal winds sucks is that no one has more than about 3d4s, so it takes forever to roll.

[RandomPeasant]

You should have lesser planar ally on the ECL 8 list, because a 6 HD outsider is great at ECL 8.

I still don't really understand what the criteria for qualification are supposed to be here, but bloodfreeze arrow is a 4th level spell on all the lists its on and because it's templated wrong for what I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be doing you can cast it as far in advance as you want and stack it, meaning that all the archer's arrows do extra damage and force saves versus paralysis.

Also wall of salt is at this level and is the first of the spells you can use to really break WBL, which is an important part of what makes casting powerful.

call of stone is an interesting choice at ECL 20. At ECL 8 it barely does anything, but the way it works is that nothing breaks the spell and you die if you fail four saves total. So jack up your caster level, Extend it (or Ocular + Persist if you believe in that and have the resources), and then you kill anything that doesn't carry dispel magic (and a lot of things that do, because you'll probably beat their CL) with iterative probability.


BO4W5 Dominate Person (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dominatePerson.htm) Enchantment(Compulsion)[Mind-Affecting]. For day/level humanoid does as you command Will negates. The first domination effect available at ECL8 via the Domination domain. Necrotic Domination is a notable alternative but harder to use in combat.

Again, I don't understand the position where this is a 4th level spell but haste is not a 1st level one (also why charm monster wasn't considered for the 3rd level one). Just put necrotic domination if you really need full control, or charm monster (which is fine, particularly in conjunction with Diplomacy) if you care about in-combat use. But honestly you probably don't, since it's pretty easy to non-lethal the last few points on whatever you want to turn.


D4BCW5 Boreal Wind(Frostburn). Evocation[Cold]. For round+round/2 levels, 1d4/level max 15d4 damage + push back 3'/caster level in a 20'x20'xLong range Fort negates. The save to negate is a bummer, but the push back and multiples rounds of damage to long(!) range in a large area means this single spell can easily end many encounters. Deployed in battlefield conditions, this can even be an army killer. Best of all, it's definitely redirectable as a move action unlike Flame Sands.

This does not strike me as particularly good. The damage is low, the pushback is not all that useful (ranged attackers will still be close enough to attack, melee attackers will still be close enough to charge), and moving out of it is not particularly difficult. If you want an AoE crowd control spell, get black tentacles, that actually locks things down.


CW Mark of the Enlightened Soul(Dragon Magic). Transmutation[Good]. As a swift action for 3 rounds all spells are good and level max(3,spell slot sacrificed-1) spells do damage+50% vs evil. This is most potent on Shivering Touch, where the difference between ~10.5 damage and ~16 damage is highly notable. If you have Ocular spell, you can cast this while loading your eyes.

I am not convinced the transparency you want between "damage" and "ability damage" exists, or that boosting regular damage is particularly worth your while at ECL20. I would drop this and put whichever version of mind magic you want on both the ECL 8 and ECL 20 lists. Plenty of the things you want to dominate are humanoids.


C Consumptive Field (Spell Compendiuim). Necromancy[Death,Evil]. For level rounds, creatures in 30' radius with <0 hp Will or die. Death=>Str+2 +1d8 temp hp, +1 effective caster level max half original. This spell is ridiculous. Even unpersisted you can arrange a ritual sacrifice of toads (or whatever) to escalate daily buff caster levels. With persistence all of your spells have a significantly escalated caster level. The biggest issue here is friendly fire.

The case for this at 8th level seems dicey. If you can persist it, it's quite good, but if you can't I don't think the duration changes matter. Both "8 hours" and "12 hours" are long enough to last all day, and I think having to cast at the start of the day more than negates the value of going from 80 minutes to 120 minutes (let alone 8 to 12). Interestingly, I think this is plausibly superior to the greater version, as they give the same benefits and it is less likely to fire on targets you don't want.


S Wings of Flurry(Races of the Dragon). Evocation[Force]. Enemies in 30' radius take d6/level force damage Refl half and daze Refl negate. This is both a universal party friendly 1-round crowd control and a scaling source of multitarget damage.

I do not think this is particularly worthwhile at 20th level. At that point if you want to boost your caster level to win encounters you just cast whichever holy word variant makes your enemies fall over. Certainly good at ECL 8.


Evard's Black Tentacles--Kelpstrand has a better grapple check (caster level+wis+bab vs. caster level+8).

And this has an AoE and does damage over time.


Dimension Door---long range teleport. A great obstacle bypass spell, but we already have access to Shadow Jaunt via Heroics which gives close range teleport. Maybe that's good enough for now?

You can't take your friends with heroics for shadow jaunt. Also "You must have line of sight and line of effect to your destination", which removes the vast majority of the point of teleportation effects.


Divine Power---a great spell that can be persisted. It's only a modest bonus to hit though, incomparable with wraithstrike. Also, it's available via substitute domain from War, Competition, Orc, and Pride.

Because it adjusts your BAB, it gives you extra attacks. I think this is at the very least better than mark of the enlightened soul at 20th level.


Death Ward---The plan is to have really good saves as a more universal counter. Hopefully that's good enough until you can afford Soulfire armor (25k gp => ECL11+)?

The alternative way of phrasing this is that this spell generates 25k GP for each ally you are able to target with it, which seems quite good to me.


Shadow Conjuration: Discussions of this spell usually beco e SCM optimization discussions but it is fantastic in its own right. Vastly increase spells available to spontaneous casters. Add significant spontaneity to prepared casters. Allows clerics, specialists, etc. to back door into large portions of the wizard/sorc list. Bypass various material components, casting time, and feat requirements. Mimic War Spells from Dragon 309 to throw a few hundred Summons onto the battlefield as a standard action, etc.

I'm not super sold on this one. "Convince your DM you're using War Spells so you can turn a 4th level spell into hundreds of 3rd level spells" seems like a big ask. My preference would be to wait until greater shadow conjuration, which can mimic major creation and drop piles of lava or poison on people as standard actions (or, by the standard we're apparently judging Evocations, just point at SCM and roll all this into silent image).


Heart of Earth: This is solid temp HP that turns into DR and can arguably pseudo-stack with itself due to how placing multiples of the same spell on a target works. HP may not be glamorous, but HP is essential.

Also if you're picking up any of the heart spells you may as well get them all, they synergize very nicely.


No Orb of X spells on the list? Targets touch AC, ignores spell resistance, and saving throws only negate some effects but not the damage. Great stuff for a blaster.

I'm sure it's great for a blaster, but this is not a blaster list. It's a general-purpose list, and wings of flurry is better if you do not have the full Mailman metamagic stack.

[Fero]

@Anthrowhale

*****My Earlier Suggestions*****

Re Enhance Wild Shape: This operates very differently than polymorph, in large part due to the very long duration.

Re Dweomer of Transference: I think combining this with SLAs would give unlimited PP, which sounds pretty nice. Also, I think a technical RaW reading of the spell makes the target immune to all spells.

Re Giant Vermin: I actually see this as being better at ECL 8 than 20. The big draw here is how well the spell scales up with CL boosters. That said, increasing CL does take a lot of effort that is perhaps better spent on other spells.

Re Mnemonic Enhancer: I personally use this when I want a large # of first level spells. For example, I recently had a character who combined Anticipate Teleportation and Scramble True Position to devastating effect. There are also a number of tricks to get arbitrarily large numbers of spells. For example, a Spell Dancer who casts Twinned/Sanctum Mnemonic Enhancers can use one of the twins to regain the mnemonic Enhancer and the other to get spell slots, generating about 18 levels of spells/hour. If your character doesn't sleep, that is about 48 bonus Fireballs (or whatever) while the party rests.

Re Suspension: This is from Shining South. I highly recommend you read through the spells in there, as many are flashy and over the top. I particularly like Sparkles (although it is not top 10) as a massive AoE Faerie Fire.

Re Black Tentacles/Kelp Strand: I realize I always assumed these spells prevent a grappled foe from moving. However, now I am less sure. Does anyone know of how spell based grapples restrict movement/actions?


*****Things to Maybe Remove*****

Boreal Wind: This is very powerful. However, the Fort negates is very painful, as Fort tends to be the highest monster save. Also, the massive AoE is a double edged sword as you can easily damage innocents etc without realizing it. I used it on a CE weather Spirit Shaman, and it was a lot of fun. However, that character also regularly threw down widened tornado force Control Winds in the middle of towns so. . . probably not a great role model?

Ruin Delver's Fortune: This is very good for Cha based casters. Other casters will have a harder time taking advantage of the whole suit of abilities.

Mark if the Enlightened Soul: I love this spell. However, it is only really useful for blaster builds and, even then, isn't truly necessary (although it is very good).

Last Breath: This is obviously useful but seems like a high risky proposition mid combat.

Wings of Flurry: I still prefer Fireball as commented before. Notably, the range really hurts.

@RandomPeasent

I agree that Lesser Planar Ally, Dimension Door, and Wall of Salt should be considered. Although, I am torn between WoSalt and WoSand. Can you cast WoSand on an opponent's square? If so, that may be the deciding factor to me.

Re Shadow Conjuration: I agree most DMs will probably stop War Magic shenanigans, although they are theoretically doable. I just cited that as an extreme example of what the spell can do. Even without tricky stuff I rank the spell in the top 10 just for the versatility (to wizards) and access to a large portion of the Wizard spell list (to everyone else). The spell grants a dizzying array of damage and control options as well as a lot of solid utility, including: Phantom Steeds, Corpse Candle (find secret doors, etc.), Summon SLAs, wards, a bridge, a permanent Gelatanous Cube (Engulfing horror), a curse, and the Empreor's New Clothes (Clothier's Closet), amongst many others.

[pabelfly]

I'm sure it's great for a blaster, but this is not a blaster list. It's a general-purpose list, and wings of flurry is better if you do not have the full Mailman metamagic stack.

Wings of Flurry is SR: Yes and Reflex: Half. Orb of X spells do not have this drawback, their only issue is that they are single-target spells. They compliment eachother quite nicely.

[RandomPeasant]

Enhance Wild Shape: This operates very differently than polymorph, in large part due to the very long duration.

If venomfire makes the 3rd level list, I think this makes the 4th level one. It's not as flashy, but it's applicable to a much wider range of forms.


Last Breath: This is obviously useful but seems like a high risky proposition mid combat.

I also think it is just sort of silly and inefficient to dedicate two slots to resurrection effects. Just tag them together and say both of them are good.


Wings of Flurry: I still prefer Fireball as commented before. Notably, the range really hurts.

I think the number of situations where wings of flurry being able to selectively target matters greatly exceeds the number of situations where fireball's range matters. Last thread the best we could come up with was "what if someone was kiting you on a featureless plane and they also happened to love fireball". Getting into a crowded melee with the party is what enemies will do naturally in any encounter where there are multiple enemies, which is to say any encounter where you would consider using blasting spells in the first place.


I agree that Lesser Planar Ally, Dimension Door, and Wall of Salt should be considered. Although, I am torn between WoSalt and WoSand. Can you cast WoSand on an opponent's square? If so, that may be the deciding factor to me.

wall of salt and wall of sand are serving completely different purposes. You don't care what wall of salt does in combat at all, you are casting it in downtime because it makes salt that you can sell for money, which you can use to buy gear that trivializes level-appropriate encounters.


Wings of Flurry is SR: Yes and Reflex: Half. Orb of X spells do not have this drawback, their only issue is that they are single-target spells. They compliment eachother quite nicely.

Orbs do the same amount of damage as wings of flurry, but only hit one target. The save is a bad argument, because the part of the orb you care about (the status rider) also offers a save, so the difference is that against a single target that makes its save your orb does an additional 14 points of damage and I do not care because that is the amount of bonus damage a Rogue deals from sneak attack on every one of the attacks he makes. If you're worried about SR, cast black tentacles.

I am aware that you are now going to explain that it is unfair to expect that people will simply cast orb spells without stacking a half-dozen different damage boosting effects on them, but that's a bad argument when you're talking about individual spells. Plenty of people are not going to spend all their feats trying to make blasting work, and the ones that do will find nearly as much success if they happen to like scorching ray or combust. The input spell just doesn't matter all that much, and the orbs get attention because of how clearly they are the best, not because they are the best by a very large margin.

[Fero]

Wall of Salt brings up an interesting question. What do we do with uses that are so exploitive as to be useless? On one hand, it probably works RaW. On the other hand, I have never heard of anyone actually using Wall of Salt to amass wealth in a game and cannot see any but the most naive of DMs allowing it.

If the list allows for things DMs will never actually allow, then Wall of Salt deserves a spot (unless a lower level spell can do the same thing). Otherwise, it is still worth consideration as an early wall spell.

[Anthrowhale]

I'm surprised you didn't list Dimensional Anchor. That spell has received a lot of virtual ink, and has seen play at my tables, too. What do we have to fill this niche, of preventing foes from using extradimensional movement?

The only thing we have at present is Anticipate Teleportation, so there is a real case here.


I'm less surprised that Restoration didn't make the cut (most needs can be handled earlier and cheaper). Or Remove Curse (fewer workarounds for this one, but very situational) for that matter.

Restoration is actually there. I included because some way to cure ability drain / level drain is fairly necessary. For Remove Curse though, there is usually a save so save boosters + Resurgence is fine. (And possibly Iron Heart Surge.)



Speaking of pedantic, I hadn't noticed it on previous lists, but you used "to" instead of "too" in Celerity, Celestial Brilliance, Sacred Item, and Sheltered Vitality. And you didn't update your Bard for ECL 8.

Fixed the latter. You'll have to be more explicit about the former.



Why is Celerity too expensive at ECL 8? Is your logic, "you're spending your highest level slots to cast more lower level slots"? If that's the argument, I'm not sure how well it holds - see the Fireball conversation from the previous thread, where casting 2 fireballs now is often much better than casting most any 1 of these 4th level spells. Yes, you can burn through slots quickly, but it's just an option in your toolkit, a way to handle those pesky ECL +3 encounters, to handle something your party is particularly weak against, to help counter a bad roll (party fighter taken out on bad save roll on round 1), or to stick a spell you need to work this round (including one that was inexplicable counterspelled - the famed OotS counterspell encounter could have gone much differently had Celerity been used).

There's a good point here.



One last silly bit of pedantry: for Freedom of Movement, you talk about the fact that one could just get a Ring. But one cannot make said Ring without Freedom of Movement, making Freedom of Movement still one of the top 10 spells if that Ring is a must-have item. In other words, these spells seem biased towards the individual, rather than the big picture of society. This feels like Chaos's list of top 10 spells, and Law demands an equal say! (that would be blue, but it felt more appropriate as lawful evil text, the blue is just implied).
That's a fair point. Can we avoid the ring and just use Heart of Water?

[Anthrowhale]

No Orb of X spells on the list? Targets touch AC, ignores spell resistance, and saving throws only negate some effects but not the damage. Great stuff for a blaster.
Yeah, the orbs are pretty awesome. I prefer orb of fire because the daze rider is the strongest amongst the orbs, it's easy to boost caster level for fire spells, and you can turn half of that fire into force anyways via the Planar Sorcerer 5 substitution level, so even in the worst case it's 7.5d6 force vs. 10d6 force.

I would love to include it, but what should be dropped?


The main reason why boreal winds sucks is that no one has more than about 3d4s, so it takes forever to roll.
Heh :-) I guess you could roll d6s and the reroll any 5s or 6s. And if you hate recursive rerolls, you could turn it into a single reroll according to 5->1 on odd 2 on even, 6->3 on odd 4 on even.

[Anthrowhale]

You should have lesser planar ally on the ECL 8 list, because a 6 HD outsider is great at ECL 8.
Is Animate with the Spirit a better alternative?


I still don't really understand what the criteria for qualification are supposed to be here, but bloodfreeze arrow is a 4th level spell on all the lists its on and because it's templated wrong for what I'm pretty sure it's supposed to be doing you can cast it as far in advance as you want and stack it, meaning that all the archer's arrows do extra damage and force saves versus paralysis.

That is indeed potent due to the paralysis rider and it qualifies for the ECL20 list.


Also wall of salt is at this level and is the first of the spells you can use to really break WBL, which is an important part of what makes casting powerful.

Breaking the economy is so easy it hardly seems worth optimizing for.


call of stone is an interesting choice at ECL 20. At ECL 8 it barely does anything, but the way it works is that nothing breaks the spell and you die if you fail four saves total. So jack up your caster level, Extend it (or Ocular + Persist if you believe in that and have the resources), and then you kill anything that doesn't carry dispel magic (and a lot of things that do, because you'll probably beat their CL) with iterative probability.

It's to slow-acting in my opinion. By the time they lock up, the encounter is typically over anyways.


Again, I don't understand the position where this is a 4th level spell but haste is not a 1st level one (also why charm monster wasn't considered for the 3rd level one). Just put necrotic domination if you really need full control, or charm monster (which is fine, particularly in conjunction with Diplomacy) if you care about in-combat use. But honestly you probably don't, since it's pretty easy to non-lethal the last few points on whatever you want to turn.

This is on the 4th level list because it's a 4th level domain spell.

Charm Monster seems like only a modest improvement over Suggestion in practice.

Necrotic Domination is extremely potent, but it can convert an enemy to an ally in the middle of combat very effectively.


This does not strike me as particularly good. The damage is low, the pushback is not all that useful (ranged attackers will still be close enough to attack, melee attackers will still be close enough to charge), and moving out of it is not particularly difficult. If you want an AoE crowd control spell, get black tentacles, that actually locks things down.

Kelpstrand has a significantly stronger grapple than Black tentacles.

You may be right about Boreal Wind...


I am not convinced the transparency you want between "damage" and "ability damage" exists,

Oh? What's the case for it not?



The case for this at 8th level seems dicey. If you can persist it, it's quite good, but if you can't I don't think the duration changes matter. Both "8 hours" and "12 hours" are long enough to last all day, and I think having to cast at the start of the day more than negates the value of going from 80 minutes to 120 minutes (let alone 8 to 12). Interestingly, I think this is plausibly superior to the greater version, as they give the same benefits and it is less likely to fire on targets you don't want.
When considering buffing spells, it's also important to note that caster level increases create durability vs. dispel.

It's perhaps also worth noting that since Greater Consumptive Field is a different spell, it's effect is cumulative.


I do not think this is particularly worthwhile at 20th level.

Scenario: the bad guys ambushed you and their wailing on the party from all directions. Luckily, you survived the surprise round and rolled high on initiative. Which spell do you use? ... Possibly the one with party-friendly multitarget daze?


And this has an AoE and does damage over time.

I'm not sure AoE beats scalable multitarget by much and 1d6+4 wins the battle extremely slowly. I'm unconvinced.


You can't take your friends with heroics for shadow jaunt. Also "You must have line of sight and line of effect to your destination", which removes the vast majority of the point of teleportation effects.

Hmm... That's a good point.


Because it adjusts your BAB, it gives you extra attacks. I think this is at the very least better than mark of the enlightened soul at 20th level.

I'm kind of charmed by Mark of the Enlightened Soul + rod[maximize] Ocular Shivering Touch. It's a low-level encounter ender event at 20th level.


The alternative way of phrasing this is that this spell generates 25k GP for each ally you are able to target with it, which seems quite good to me.

The spell is minute/level, so for all day coverage at caster level 60 you would need 24 L3 pearls of power costing 216k gp.


I'm not super sold on this one. "Convince your DM you're using War Spells so you can turn a 4th level spell into hundreds of 3rd level spells" seems like a big ask.

This seems like a creative source, but I don't presently see anything invalid? (and, technically, hundreds of 2nd level spells).


I'm sure it's great for a blaster, but this is not a blaster list. It's a general-purpose list, and wings of flurry is better if you do not have the full Mailman metamagic stack.
They can both work well on a mailmain. Arcane Thesis[Arcane Fusion] + Twin Spell applies to both.

[pabelfly]

Orbs do the same amount of damage as wings of flurry, but only hit one target. The save is a bad argument, because the part of the orb you care about (the status rider) also offers a save, so the difference is that against a single target that makes its save your orb does an additional 14 points of damage and I do not care because that is the amount of bonus damage a Rogue deals from sneak attack on every one of the attacks he makes. If you're worried about SR, cast black tentacles.

I am aware that you are now going to explain that it is unfair to expect that people will simply cast orb spells without stacking a half-dozen different damage boosting effects on them, but that's a bad argument when you're talking about individual spells. Plenty of people are not going to spend all their feats trying to make blasting work, and the ones that do will find nearly as much success if they happen to like scorching ray or combust. The input spell just doesn't matter all that much, and the orbs get attention because of how clearly they are the best, not because they are the best by a very large margin.

I don't buy your argument. You want to imagine a game where blasters aren't taking any feats or class abilities to boost damage, but then, you're not only going to ignore four caster levels worth of damage on a damage-dealing spell, you'll also ignore the opportunity to target elemental weaknesses and do extra damage with your spells.

You also mention Black Tentacles as a great spell, and I agree, but you know what compliments that spell well? The Orb of X spell line. I'd argue that enemies with high grapple checks, which negates Black Tentacles, often have low touch ACs and low reflex, not to mention the chance of elemental weaknesses, such as giants and dragons, which make them the perfect target for the Orb spells.

[Fero]

I don't know what to make of the Orb lf X spells.

I don't see them as particularly good for a dedicated blaster, because: 1) They can only ever hit 1 target; 2) If you are building around single target blasting, your target should die, making the secondary effects pointless; and 3) Other spells do more damage (As examples, Hailstones and Unicorn Arrows are both lower level, do more damage, and are also SR:no).

I also don't see the orbs as particularly good for a non-dedicated blaster. They don't do dramatic single target damage like Lightning Lance, Moonbow, or Streamers. They also don't provide the tactical usefulness of AoE damage spells.

Overall, the Orb of X spells to seem to be in a middle ground between dedicated blasting, more casual blasting, and save or suck control. That is not a terrible place to be, but not amazing either.

[eggynack]

Enhance wild shape is funny in this context because it becomes way way better at specifically 9th level. Cause aberrations. Without those, plants also make it substantially better starting at level 12. But yeah, it's one of the best druid spells. It does a massive variety of stuff, ranging from really strong effects like vision modes and healing, to outright broken effects, like extra turns and wacky ethereal nonsense. I dunno if it's better or worse than polymorph, especially given how strong unenhanced wild shape is, but I'm also not sure if it matters. It's not like these are hanging out on a spell list together. Even if they were both wizard spells or something, the fact that you'd maybe never take the weaker option doesn't mean it's worse than it is.

[RandomPeasant]

Wall of Salt brings up an interesting question. What do we do with uses that are so exploitive as to be useless? On one hand, it probably works RaW. On the other hand, I have never heard of anyone actually using Wall of Salt to amass wealth in a game and cannot see any but the most naive of DMs allowing it.

We have polymorph on the list, and there are absolutely uses of polymorph that most DMs would never allow. We're going to have planar binding on the 6th level list and polymorph any object on the 8th level list and shapechange/wish/gate on the 9th level list, and so on. Saying "we'll skip the spells that break the game" requires you to decide what "break the game" means, and as I mentioned in my discussion of polymorph any object last thread, I think the correct solution is to instead list them individually, but try to ignore them in the evaluation of unrelated spells.


Is Animate with the Spirit a better alternative?

I would rather have the version any character can use.


Breaking the economy is so easy it hardly seems worth optimizing for.

Skipping "break the economy" in a discussion of casters is like skipping "have minions" or "produce utility effects". Yes, there are lots of ways to do it, but it's a powerful thing to do.


It's to slow-acting in my opinion. By the time they lock up, the encounter is typically over anyways.

You don't cast call of stone and then have an encounter. You cast it, leave (easy to do as a 20th level character), and then come back in 5 minutes, at which point a target with a 20% chance of failing any given save has an almost 90% chance of being dead, assuming Extend + CL 30. It's like flensing or power word pain, just with a different "defense" that it targets (not having anti-magic, rather than low CHA/CON or HP).


Charm Monster seems like only a modest improvement over Suggestion in practice.

charm monster has days/level duration and makes people Friendly (meaning the DC to make them Helpful is only 20). suggestion is a modestly useful in-combat effect.


Kelpstrand has a significantly stronger grapple than Black tentacles.

kelpstrand has a somewhat stronger grapple check than black tentacles (probably somewhere around 2 to 6 points at this level). But the cost is that it hits less targets (2 at ECL 8 versus a 20ft spread) and doesn't acquire new targets. kelpstrand is (basically) a single-target spell that targets people's grapple, black tentacles is an extremely powerful crowd control effect.


Oh? What's the case for it not?

What's the case for it? Does DR also apply to ability damage?


When considering buffing spells, it's also important to note that caster level increases create durability vs. dispel.

Are you getting dispelled often enough at 8th level to make spending a 4th level spell slot to reduce someone's chance of doing that for specifically your hours/level buffs go from 50% to 30% is one of the best things you can get out of 4th level spells? And that's only against someone who has done nothing to optimize their dispelling.


Scenario: the bad guys ambushed you and their wailing on the party from all directions. Luckily, you survived the surprise round and rolled high on initiative. Which spell do you use? ... Possibly the one with party-friendly multitarget daze?

holy word is perfectly safe to use on a party that's all Good, and inflicts "dead, no save" (assuming enough CL boosting, otherwise it's just various forms of no-save suckitude). By 20th level you will also have other options for selective AoEs, like the mass versions of both hold monster and charm monster, or a metamagic rod of Sculpt Spell, which will generally be sufficient to avoid hitting friendlies with whatever your favorite BFC is.


The spell is minute/level, so for all day coverage at caster level 60 you would need 24 L3 pearls of power costing 216k gp.

It's also Persistable.


I don't buy your argument. You want to imagine a game where blasters aren't taking any feats or class abilities to boost damage, but then, you're not only going to ignore four caster levels worth of damage on a damage-dealing spell, you'll also ignore the opportunity to target elemental weaknesses and do extra damage with your spells.

I am imagining an analytical framework where we evaluate spells as spells, not as inputs into some sort of rube goldberg machine that can turn acid arrow into enough damage to kill CR 10 monsters. No one demanded that we evaluate major image on the basis of how it fits into the Shadowcraft Mage build.

And, as I said last thread, you can't "target elemental weaknesses", because as a Wizard you can't prepare enough orbs to do that and as a Sorcerer you can't learn enough orbs to do that. It works for a Warmage, but they don't select enough spells to make any use of this list. In practice, you as likely to end up in a situation where your orb is resisted as one where it is super-effective.


You also mention Black Tentacles as a great spell, and I agree, but you know what compliments that spell well?

Buffs that apply to ranged attacks? Minions that have ranged attacks? solid fog?


The Orb of X spell line. I'd argue that enemies with high grapple checks, which negates Black Tentacles, often have low touch ACs and low reflex, not to mention the chance of elemental weaknesses, such as giants and dragons, which make them the perfect target for the Orb spells.

Let's check in on some CR 8 dragons, shall we? First up, we've got the juvenile blue dragon. It's got no elemental weakness, so no luck for you there, but let's hope you weren't a fan of entangling people, as it is immune to orb of electricity. Oh, and it's got a breath weapon that's a line of lightning, which since it's large has almost double the range of your orb at CL 8. But let's suppose we get past all that and tag it with an orb of fire. Your baseline average damage is 28, and it has 142 HP. So as a Sorcerer or specialist Evoker, you might be able to kill it with a mere "all your 4th level spell slots" if you can muster 34 INT/CHA. Seems a compelling alternative to the shivering touch you could've learned last level. But maybe blue dragons are just good against orbs. Maybe if we move on to the other dragons we can rescue your point (I do not think you can rescue your point by 6x-ing your per-spell damage output, because at that point everyone else is just going to have, like, venomfire + Persistent wraithstrike and polymorph).

The juvenile brass dragon has less HP, and even a vulnerability to cold, and since it's medium its breath weapon only about a third longer range than your orbs. So if you can hit it with them reliably, it takes only three baseline orbs of cold to kill it. The green dragon is the first not to be able to outrange you with its breath weapon, but it's back to having no elemental weakness and it has nearly as much HP as the blue dragon (though because of how the math works out you can kill it in one fewer orb -- now you only need 26 in your casting stat!). Finally, you've got the white dragon, which does have an elemental weakness, but unfortunately the opposite one of the brass dragon. And it's got as much HP as the blue, meaning it lives "way too many" neutral orbs.

Of course, there's another thing to consider about dragons: they cast spells themselves. None of these ones get 2nd level spells, but once you encounter a dragon that does, it can pop its touch AC up from "nearly impossible for you to miss" to "nearly impossible for you to hit" just by casting scintillating scales.

Things do look a bit happier for you against the stone giant, as it has less HP, but it has no elemental interactions or spell resistance, so I'd rather just cast something to target the Reflex save there (like wings of flurry). Or its Will save, since that's also low, and would you look at that greater rebuke is this level.


I dunno if it's better or worse than polymorph, especially given how strong unenhanced wild shape is, but I'm also not sure if it matters. It's not like these are hanging out on a spell list together. Even if they were both wizard spells or something, the fact that you'd maybe never take the weaker option doesn't mean it's worse than it is.

I mean there is a real issue there, namely how we're supposed to evaluate spells that interact with class features (which is mostly "wild shape and/or animal companion"). Even more than venomfire, enhance wild shape is useless if you are not specifically a Druid, which I think is fine to ignore if you are evaluating these spells mostly in the context of the classes that get them, but is more dubious if "it's 4th level on a domain list somewhere" means the spell goes on this list.

[eggynack]

I mean there is a real issue there, namely how we're supposed to evaluate spells that interact with class features (which is mostly "wild shape and/or animal companion"). Even more than venomfire, enhance wild shape is useless if you are not specifically a Druid, which I think is fine to ignore if you are evaluating these spells mostly in the context of the classes that get them, but is more dubious if "it's 4th level on a domain list somewhere" means the spell goes on this list.
The overall list here is pretty combo friendly in general, and this is barely a combo. I'm rather skeptical that saying it's a top spell implies that an archivist should pop it on their list, y'know? Especially because that setup implies that the spell is ranked lower partially because it's also usable by spirit shamans. It is, as you state, a druid spell. It does good thing for druid. I dunno, if you think it should rank lower than polymorph or something because other classes that can use it won't use it, or because wild shape is doing a lot of the work, that could be somewhat justifiable. The idea of excluding it entirely strikes me as rather wild though. It's one of the strongest spells in the game. If you optimize it, it beats out the vast majority of the spells being listed. How much of this stuff is better than literally exclusively will-o'-wisp form for both invisibility and magic immunity? And that's only like the third or fourth best thing you can do.

Edit: Just noticed an error. Friendly fire is immediate, not swift.

[pabelfly]

Of course, there's another thing to consider about dragons: they cast spells themselves. None of these ones get 2nd level spells, but once you encounter a dragon that does, it can pop its touch AC up from "nearly impossible for you to miss" to "nearly impossible for you to hit" just by casting scintillating scales.

If a dragon spends a turn boosting its touch AC to fend off a potential Orb attack instead of using a breath weapon or it's attack routine that turn, I'd consider that a pretty solid contribution.

[Chronos]

I'll put in a nomination for Summon Monster IV. Both Lantern Archon and Yeth Hound provide effects that are not available at all at lower levels, and mephits also offer some utility (mostly 2nd-level spells, but you get versatility in your options). Or you can just get some bruiser. If we're counting "wreck the economy", Lantern Archons can also do that, by making free Everburning Torches for you. It's probably not on the ECL 20 list, since by then there are many options for duplicating all it does (any higher level Summon Monster, or Greater Shadow Conjuration, for starters), but it gets a lot for you at 8 (definitely better than Wall of Salt).

It probably doesn't quite make the cut, but I'll also mention Summon Nature's Ally IV. When I played a druid, if Summon Unicorn were a 4th-level spell by itself, it'd have been good enough for me to prepare it. But it also has a bunch of other options, and a druid doesn't even need to prepare it.

[eggynack]

It probably doesn't quite make the cut, but I'll also mention Summon Nature's Ally IV. When I played a druid, if Summon Unicorn were a 4th-level spell by itself, it'd have been good enough for me to prepare it. But it also has a bunch of other options, and a druid doesn't even need to prepare it.
Yeah, was considering mentioning this one. Unicorns are excellent utility in multiple ways, and then you also get giant crocodile for high quality face smashing, and finally you get spriggan and yellow musk creeper for wacky nonsense. Just a really strong option from the line.

[RandomPeasant]

The overall list here is pretty combo friendly in general, and this is barely a combo. I'm rather skeptical that saying it's a top spell implies that an archivist should pop it on their list, y'know?

I mean I kinda think you don't know. It's still not entirely clear to me how the list is meant to be read. Sticking dominate person on it at this level only really makes sense if you are saying "hey Archivists, look over here".


If a dragon spends a turn boosting its touch AC to fend off a potential Orb attack instead of using a breath weapon or it's attack routine that turn, I'd consider that a pretty solid contribution.

I suspect the CR 15+ monster with triple standard treasure can get its hands on a lesser rod of quicken.


I'll put in a nomination for Summon Monster IV.

I just don't see how that beats lesser planar ally. Sure, you get some additional flexibility, but the jump between what it gives you and (effectively) permanent 6 HD outsiders is huge. It's also really hard to justify both at 8th level (not doing enough to justify losing combat spells) and at 20th level (you can get a way better summon and still not care about the slot).

[eggynack]

I mean I kinda think you don't know. It's still not entirely clear to me how the list is meant to be read. Sticking dominate person on it at this level only really makes sense if you are saying "hey Archivists, look over here".
One thing I'd note is that I feel like a spell would make sense on the list even if it were literally exclusive to a single class. I would think the inclusion of domain stuff would point towards that rather than away from it, because it means the spell is substantially more specific and exclusive. You can only use it if you have a particular domain or are this one class. That enhance wild shape is basically class limited, therefore, doesn't seem like a particularly big deal.

[Chronos]

Quoth RandomPeasant:

I just don't see how that beats lesser planar ally. Sure, you get some additional flexibility, but the jump between what it gives you and (effectively) permanent 6 HD outsiders is huge.
I'd say that not needing to negotiate payment and not having to worry (as much, if cleric, or at all, if wizard) about the creature's ethos are both very significant advantages. It's certainly more worth the spot than Wall of Salt, since both spells can generate free wealth (but Lesser Planar Binding can't, because any outsider who can generate wealth is going to charge at least that much for its services).

On the question of "What level is this spell?", I think it's fair to consider Animate Dead at its cleric level rather than its wizard level, because wizards and clerics are both quite common. Most groups will include a wizard, and most groups will include a cleric. And bard and druid aren't exactly rare, either. But I don't think it's reasonable to include a spell based just on one non-Core domain. That's useful if the user of this list is an Archivist, but not if it's anyone else at all (when was the last time you saw someone playing a cleric with the domination domain?). And there are a lot more anyone-elses than archivists.

Basically, I think there are three sets of players we're considering, here:
1: Players who play relatively common spellcasting classes who get some choice of what spells to take.
2: Players who play rare, obscure classes or class options that have weird spell lists, and might not even have a choice of spells.
3: Players who play uncommon (non-core, at least) classes that have a way to poach spells from many or all spell lists.

Including a non-core domain spell (or a list like Trapsmith) caters to categories 2 and 3, but even combined, those categories are much, much smaller than category 1. And it only barely caters to category 2, because if you play a domination cleric, you're going to have Dominate Person, regardless, and don't need to choose it.

[eggynack]

I'd say that not needing to negotiate payment and not having to worry (as much, if cleric, or at all, if wizard) about the creature's ethos are both very significant advantages. It's certainly more worth the spot than Wall of Salt, since both spells can generate free wealth (but Lesser Planar Binding can't, because any outsider who can generate wealth is going to charge at least that much for its services).
The DM dependency is also not great. There are broken creatures you can get with lesser planar ally, but there're also a lot of garbage creatures, and the fact that you can be "balanced" within the rules is a limiting factor on cheese.

[pabelfly]

I suspect the CR 15+ monster with triple standard treasure can get its hands on a lesser rod of quicken.

1) How have we went from dragons without second-level spellcasting to CR 15+ monsters?
2) If your argument is that the DM can bypass the treasure generation rules to give enemies custom equipment solely to counter a spellcaster's specific spell, it's probably a good spell.

[RandomPeasant]

One thing I'd note is that I feel like a spell would make sense on the list even if it were literally exclusive to a single class. I would think the inclusion of domain stuff would point towards that rather than away from it, because it means the spell is substantially more specific and exclusive. You can only use it if you have a particular domain or are this one class. That enhance wild shape is basically class limited, therefore, doesn't seem like a particularly big deal.

Then what about lesser planar binding on this list? It's 4th level on the Nar Demonbinder list, and I think it certainly earns a spot here as it addresses any conceivable issue with lesser planar ally.

To be clear, I don't disagree with enhance wild shape on this list. My issue is with the broader lack of clear and consistent principles about what goes on this list at what levels.


(but Lesser Planar Binding can't, because any outsider who can generate wealth is going to charge at least that much for its services).

Why? The creatures you call with lesser planar binding aren't inherently opposed to you being very rich. They have some set of capabilities (which, if you're trying to become very rich, presumably includes some at-will spell that generates resources that can be sold for money), and some set of desires (which hopefully includes something you can provide with your other spell slots). There's no reason why a Lantern Archon would be a priori unwilling to trade "8 hours of casting continual flame" for "one casting of fabricate", it can produce zero castings of fabricate, and has no reason to attach any value but the time it's spending to the castings of continual flame. It can't even replicate the exchange back home, because wherever it's from is full of other Archons who can also cast continual flame as much as they want.


And bard and druid aren't exactly rare, either.

I would flag Bard, because Bards get a different casting progression, such that for practical purposes something that is e.g. a 4th level spell for Bards is a 5th level spell for anyone else, in terms of when you get access to it.


That's useful if the user of this list is an Archivist, but not if it's anyone else at all (when was the last time you saw someone playing a cleric with the domination domain?). And there are a lot more anyone-elses than archivists.

And Archivists (and particularly Artificers) can access a lot of things we very intentionally did not put on the previous list. If you're plundering from spell lists hither and yon, greater dispel magic and wall of stone are 3rd level spells for you if your campaign is using whatever book Trapsmiths are in. Those are both easily good enough to make the 3rd level list.


if you play a domination cleric, you're going to have Dominate Person, regardless, and don't need to choose it.

You're also (barring additional options that change the dynamic) only going to get one dominate person per day, which is rather different from how other spells work for other classes.


The DM dependency is also not great. There are broken creatures you can get with lesser planar ally, but there're also a lot of garbage creatures, and the fact that you can be "balanced" within the rules is a limiting factor on cheese.

You can request specific creatures by name. "What if your DM screws you by giving you something else anyway" is on par with "what if dominate person is very bad because all the humanoids you encounter are 1st level peasants", in that both are possible within the rules, but also represent a degree of game-warping on the part of the spell that indicates to me that it's very powerful.


1) How have we went from dragons without second-level spellcasting to CR 15+ monsters?

Because that is (roughly, obviously there is great variance) when dragons consistently have 2nd level spells, and therefore the point at which scintillating scales becomes a relevant point of discussion. If you would like to just discuss the CR 8 dragons, I invite you to go take another look at the analysis I did of them and explain your plan to do enough damage for a juvenile blue dragon to care with your orb of fire at a level of optimization where the party's melee cannot obliterate it with a single round of attacks.


2) If your argument is that the DM can bypass the treasure generation rules to give enemies custom equipment solely to counter a spellcaster's specific spell, it's probably a good spell.

Either you are not boosting the damage output of the orbs (in which case they deal very little damage and are bad), or you are optimizing the damage output of the orbs and it is reasonable to assume the monsters you face are optimized as well (in which case the dragon boosts its touch AC and they are bad). If you think there is a sweet spot, I would invite you to spell out what you think that sweet spot is.

[eggynack]

Then what about lesser planar binding on this list? It's 4th level on the Nar Demonbinder list, and I think it certainly earns a spot here as it addresses any conceivable issue with lesser planar ally.

To be clear, I don't disagree with enhance wild shape on this list. My issue is with the broader lack of clear and consistent principles about what goes on this list at what levels.
Dang, that one's weird. My typical objection to prestige classes is that you're not really getting a 4th level spell, because prerequisites move your access later, but I guess this one just kinda lines up fine. Prestige classes in general are kinda weird though. Like, prestige classes are weirder than slow casters which are weirder than basic 9th level casters. I think it would be rather unusual to come up with a rule set for inclusion in which enhance wild shape was disallowed. It doesn't strike me as particularly fringe, in other words.



You can request specific creatures by name. "What if your DM screws you by giving you something else anyway" is on par with "what if dominate person is very bad because all the humanoids you encounter are 1st level peasants", in that both are possible within the rules, but also represent a degree of game-warping on the part of the spell that indicates to me that it's very powerful.
You have to know the name of a specific movanic deva or whatever to do that though, so that's weird. More broadly though, I think it's rather different when a spell is explicitly like, "The DM has the right to screw you over on this one." It's the same reason wish discussion tends to limit itself to listed applications, for example. Sure, we could always imagine a variety of bizarre scenarios in which a given spell sucks, but it's not like dominate person says, "Your DM is allowed to change the target of your spell if they think your selection would be too powerful."

[ciopo]

I was waiting for the 6th level topic, but it keeps popping up so I'm going to say my piece on planar binding: I don't feel it belongs to the list of top 10 at all.

Because my experience with it has been one of two:

we either gentlemanly pretend it doesn't exists, except as a gm tool for the villians.

Or the campaign quickly goes in a direction where spell selection stops mattering, and the spell access of every spellcaster is "all the spells, all the time"

A middle ground of course can exists, but it's a very artificial middle ground, and mostly "a contrivance", which again in regard to spell access it's whateverish



I'm seconding the sentiment that this effort seems to lack a focus, other thanthe fun of discussing whatspells are top spells itself

[Fero]

I'm seconding the sentiment that this effort seems to lack a focus, other thanthe fun of discussing whatspells are top spells itself

I think that the discussion is the point. Like club-wielding philosphers debating the nature of the Lady of Pain, our answers don't really matter and are almost certainly wrong. Instead, the discussion is what is important, and fun!

[RandomPeasant]

Dang, that one's weird. My typical objection to prestige classes is that you're not really getting a 4th level spell, because prerequisites move your access later, but I guess this one just kinda lines up fine. Prestige classes in general are kinda weird though. Like, prestige classes are weirder than slow casters which are weirder than basic 9th level casters.

As I said in the previous thread, I think "no PrCs" is a perfectly principled stance. But then you've got other problems like animate dead needing to be a 2nd level spell. I outlined what I thought was a reasonable set of pretty general rules, but it would put dominate person as a 5th level spell (Domination being a non-Core domain).


I think it would be rather unusual to come up with a rule set for inclusion in which enhance wild shape was disallowed. It doesn't strike me as particularly fringe, in other words.

My concern about enhance wild shape comes from the other direction, in that if this really is a totally class-agnostic list, it's not really justifiable to to include something so dependent on a specific class feature. Yes, there's other stuff that's discussed in the context of its synergies (and I'll be honest, I think too much weight is given to even some of those -- "what if you get a setting-specific feat and a different setting-specific item" is not a reasonable standard by which to evaluate a spell). But there's not really a way to just pick up Wild Shape like there is with the items or spells or feats that make other spells better. If you're an Archivist using this list for scroll shopping, enhance wild shape is going to be the worst choice to make. Worse than picking up snowsight without obscuring snow, even.


it's not like dominate person says, "Your DM is allowed to change the target of your spell if they think your selection would be too powerful."

The DM does have total control over what possible targets exist, though. In that respect it's even worse than lesser planar ally, as while you could hypothetically have a no-humanoids campaign, casting LPA is going to give you some 6HD outsider, even if it's not the one you wanted for Christmas.


we either gentlemanly pretend it doesn't exists, except as a gm tool for the villians.

I think if you have to pretend a spell doesn't exist, that's a sign it's a really strong spell. Also, I don't think this concern is specific to planar binding, as there's a very similar question to be had on the subject of "what does polymorph actually do after you've evaluated all the sources that say they effect it, and which of those sources do you think are lying to us about having an effect".

[Anthrowhale]

I'm well behind the comment frontier, but do fully intend to work through things (if slowly).



Re Enhance Wild Shape: This operates very differently than polymorph, in large part due to the very long duration.

Looking through Eggynack's guide, it looks like boss choices at ECL8 are:
Nilshai (extra standard actions/round)
Dharculus (reside on ethereal plane)
Grell (60' blindsight, 30'(perfect) flight)

The thing I'm having difficulty balancing is that you basically must commit to being a Druid to use this. Of all the commitments a build makes, class levels are the most significant. Is there anyway to get wildshape on a nondruid full caster?



Re Dweomer of Transference: I think combining this with SLAs would give unlimited PP, which sounds pretty nice. Also, I think a technical RaW reading of the spell makes the target immune to all spells.

That does seem ridiculously powerful. I suspect there's an editing error where the key line "... any spells cast at the subject..." was plausibly supposed to be "any spells you cast at the subject". As is, you would sort of like to have DoT up even at high levels to squash any area of effect spells the party is subject to.



Re Mnemonic Enhancer: I personally use this when I want a large # of first level spells. For example, I recently had a character who combined Anticipate Teleportation and Scramble True Position to devastating effect. There are also a number of tricks to get arbitrarily large numbers of spells. For example, a Spell Dancer who casts Twinned/Sanctum Mnemonic Enhancers can use one of the twins to regain the mnemonic Enhancer ...

I think the latter doesn't work because Sanctum Mnemonic Enhancer is a 4th level spell until it is _cast_ outside of your sanctum. Recovery must happen before casting.



Re Suspension: This is from Shining South. I highly recommend you read through the spells in there, as many are flashy and over the top. I particularly like Sparkles (although it is not top 10) as a massive AoE Faerie Fire.

It's a strong effect, but there seem to be other ways to achieve the utility, for example utilizing Polymorph for flight and Shrink for carrying stuff.



Re Black Tentacles/Kelp Strand: I realize I always assumed these spells prevent a grappled foe from moving. However, now I am less sure. Does anyone know of how spell based grapples restrict movement/actions?

The grappled condition (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapplingConsequences) limits movement directly.



*****Things to Maybe Remove*****

Very helpful.



Ruin Delver's Fortune: This is very good for Cha based casters. Other casters will have a harder time taking advantage of the whole suit of abilities.

There are a bunch of cumulative cha-boosting spells out there, so even non-Cha casters can get a pretty solid save boost off of this at high levels. For example: Nixie's Grace(+8 enhance), Inner Beauty (+4 sacred), Snowsong(+4 morale), Greater Visage of the Deity (+4 untyped), and if you want to splurge on wishes +4 inherent. That leaves a character with 8 Cha getting a +11 save boost.

More generally, this is the only all-saves (admittedly with multiple castings) boost I'm aware of which scales with a stat.


Mark if the Enlightened Soul: I love this spell. However, it is only really useful for blaster builds and, even then, isn't truly necessary (although it is very good).

There's a fairly significant nonlinear effect associated with crossing damage thresholds. I took a look at this for srd monsters A-D to check out this effect. Looking at this, Shivering Touch achieves at least a 50% chance of shutdown for 23% of monsters, MotES enhances that to 43%, Shivering Touch+Empower pushes this to 63%, and Shivering Touch+Empower+MotES reaches 72%. Altogether, I'd have to agree that MotES is not _necessary_, but it's a very nice cheap damage enhancer.


Last Breath: This is obviously useful but seems like a high risky proposition mid combat.

I agree---Revenance seems like the better combat spell.

But, a cure for death seems like a can't-miss effect, yes? And the fact this one is available at 4th level and is so cheap seems like a significant win, plausibly until we reach true resurrection.


Wings of Flurry: I still prefer Fireball as commented before. Notably, the range really hurts.

The rider seems particularly potent to me. It's like great thunderclap except it's party friendly and no types of creatures are immune.



Can you cast WoSand on an opponent's square?

Yes you can.

[pabelfly]

Because that is (roughly, obviously there is great variance) when dragons consistently have 2nd level spells, and therefore the point at which scintillating scales becomes a relevant point of discussion. If you would like to just discuss the CR 8 dragons, I invite you to go take another look at the analysis I did of them and explain your plan to do enough damage for a juvenile blue dragon to care with your orb of fire at a level of optimization where the party's melee cannot obliterate it with a single round of attacks.



Either you are not boosting the damage output of the orbs (in which case they deal very little damage and are bad), or you are optimizing the damage output of the orbs and it is reasonable to assume the monsters you face are optimized as well (in which case the dragon boosts its touch AC and they are bad). If you think there is a sweet spot, I would invite you to spell out what you think that sweet spot is.

If we're talking high optimization at level 15 for a blaster, I would imagine they would have Arcane Fusion and can combine a fourth-level Orb spell with True Strike and the extra time the dragon spent buffing their touch AC is largely meaningless.

[Anthrowhale]

Wall of Salt brings up an interesting question. What do we do with uses that are so exploitive as to be useless? On one hand, it probably works RaW. On the other hand, I have never heard of anyone actually using Wall of Salt to amass wealth in a game and cannot see any but the most naive of DMs allowing it.

I think we should list them in general.

Wall of Salt is however just not that compelling to me as a financial engine though. Is it good salt that people would actually pay for? Or more like the salt you melt snow with? Salt is a quite generic term that covers both edible and inedible varieties in popular usage. And just setting up shop in some town and offering spells for hire according to the spellcasting services already can generate quite a bit of cash.

[Anthrowhale]

Enhance wild shape is funny in this context because it becomes way way better at specifically 9th level.

Oh, I see what you mean. It's _technically_ possible to pick it up at 6th level, but then you are delaying natural spell until 9th level.

It may be possible to use Dragonborn tricks for off-cycle feats in at least some cases.

[RandomPeasant]

The thing I'm having difficulty balancing is that you basically must commit to being a Druid to use this. Of all the commitments a build makes, class levels are the most significant. Is there anyway to get wildshape on a nondruid full caster?

You also have to be a Druid to learn it. Or I guess a Spirit Shaman, though I think "you're learning spells without the class features to make them sing" is accepted as a result the Spirit Shaman is sub-par. As I've been saying, a great deal depends on what you think the list is for.


The rider seems particularly potent to me. It's like great thunderclap except it's party friendly and no types of creatures are immune.

wings of flurry basically solves the problems blasting spells have. If you're going to put fireball on one of these lists, there is absolutely no excuse for excluding it.


If we're talking high optimization at level 15 for a blaster, I would imagine they would have Arcane Fusion and can combine a fourth-level Orb spell with True Strike and the extra time the dragon spent buffing their touch AC is largely meaningless.

I would love for you to instead talk "how do you expect the orb you are casting as an 8th level character to deal an amount of damage to a dragon or giant that the monster cares about".


Wall of Salt is however just not that compelling to me as a financial engine though. Is it good salt that people would actually pay for? Or more like the salt you melt snow with? Salt is a quite generic term that covers both edible and inedible varieties in popular usage. And just setting up shop in some town and offering spells for hire according to the spellcasting services already can generate quite a bit of cash.

wall of salt generates "a gleaming wall of salt crystal", and the rules for trade goods specify "One pound of salt or silver" sells for 5 GP. So there's not really any RAW angle to nickel-and-dime you on what kind of salt it is. Also, someone suggested that summon monster IV (lantern archon) is better, but I don't think that's actually true. At CL 8, SMIV gives you a lantern archon for 8 rounds, which makes eight everburning torches with SLA continual flame, which comes to 880 GP worth of stuff, which sells for 440 GP. On the other hand, wall of salt gives you eight 8-inch thick 5ft squares, which comes to 16.67 cubic feet which, at the 80 lbs/cubic foot figure I found for salt density, comes to 1333.6 pounds of salt, which is 6668 GP, which sells for full price as a trade good. This also beats selling spellcasting services, which it's not clear to me is RAW-legal.

[eggynack]

Oh, I see what you mean. It's _technically_ possible to pick it up at 6th level, but then you are delaying natural spell until 9th level.
I just mean that the evaluation is taking place at ECL 8, which is one level before enhance really kicks off. I guess you can use surrogate spellcaster or something if you wanna do this earlier wild shape feat shtick.

[Anthrowhale]

I would rather have the version any character can use.

We are considering class-specific spells and have considered alignment-specific ones in the past.

As far as I can tell, Animate with the Spirit is somewhere between Animate Dead and Planar Ally.

Vs. Animate Dead:
Lower BAB (up to +6 vs. up to +10)
gain automatic Ex/Su abilities of host.
gain SLAs/SUs/mental abilities of the spirit.

Vs. Planar Ally:
Only good outsiders rather than outsiders or elementals.
Far cheaper---you need a single Restoration (100gp) and that could potentially be applied for multiple castings. Planar Ally is at least 600gp/casting.
Significantly longer---10 minutes/level instead of 1 minute/level.
Much beefier---you can use a troll body or whatever, and even equip it without fretting about what happens when the creature "dies". It also "scales" since you encounter more powerful corpses over time.
AwtS plausibly resets the timing for Last Breath since the summons+corpse is "treated as if were still alive but possessed."

It seems overall better than Animate Dead, but vs. Planar Ally I'm less familiar. Animate with the Spirit was studied by Eggynack who lists:

Emprix (https://web.archive.org/web/20161101181031/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mm/20001101a): At will aid, continual flame, flare, cure light wounds, detect magic, dispel magic, holy aura, daylight, remove disease, remove fear, daze, charm person, suggestion, charm monster, confusion, emotion, 3/day mass charm, 1/month geas/quest, Always active: detect evil, detect chaos, see invisibility, and true seeing
Equinal: At will: aid, command, detect evil, detect magic, dimension door, dispel magic, fog cloud, light, magic circle against evil (self only), magic missile, and see invisibility; 1/day—slow and wall of stone
Holyphant: At will—blessed sight*, detect chaos, detect law, detect poison, detect thoughts, invisibility, know direction, see invisibility, suggestion, bless, light, greater teleport (self and up to 20 pounds of objects only); 3/day—cure moderate wounds, protection from evil; 1/day—banishment, flame strike, heal, raise dead.
Movanic Deva: At will—aid, consecrate, continual flame, create food and water, death ward, detect evil, discern lies, prayer, protection from arrows; 3/day—atonement, bless weapon, cure serious wounds, daylight, divination, ethereal jaunt, hallow, holy smite, neutralize poison, plane shift, remove curse, remove disease, remove fear; 1/day—commune, raise dead.


So, what other SLAs/abilities can Planar Ally bring to the table?



You don't cast call of stone and then have an encounter. You cast it, leave (easy to do as a 20th level character), and then come back in 5 minutes, at which point a target with a 20% chance of failing any given save has an almost 90% chance of being dead, assuming Extend + CL 30. It's like flensing or power word pain, just with a different "defense" that it targets (not having anti-magic, rather than low CHA/CON or HP).

Yeah, I get the use. It's a tactic you could use sometimes but it seems inconvenient.



charm monster has days/level duration and makes people Friendly (meaning the DC to make them Helpful is only 20). suggestion is a modestly useful in-combat effect.

And apparently it's an easily-available SLA.



kelpstrand has a somewhat stronger grapple check than black tentacles (probably somewhere around 2 to 6 points at this level). But the cost is that it hits less targets (2 at ECL 8 versus a 20ft spread) and doesn't acquire new targets. kelpstrand is (basically) a single-target spell that targets people's grapple, black tentacles is an extremely powerful crowd control effect.

How many opponents are we worried about? If it's a mob, Wall of Sand or plain old Fireball seems pretty adequate at ECL8. If it's just a few Kelpstrand hits well. If it's a mob of high level opponents, you should probably consider running anyways.


What's the case for it?

Ability damage is (by definition) a form of damage.


Does DR also apply to ability damage?

Maybe, if it was inflicted by a weapon.


Are you getting dispelled often enough at 8th level to make spending a 4th level spell slot to reduce someone's chance of doing that for specifically your hours/level buffs go from 50% to 30% is one of the best things you can get out of 4th level spells? And that's only against someone who has done nothing to optimize their dispelling.

You could get an extra +2 via Anyspell[Suffer the Flesh] even without persistomancy but there's some point here.



holy word is perfectly safe to use on a party that's all Good, and inflicts "dead, no save" (assuming enough CL boosting, otherwise it's just various forms of no-save suckitude). By 20th level you will also have other options for selective AoEs, like the mass versions of both hold monster and charm monster, or a metamagic rod of Sculpt Spell, which will generally be sufficient to avoid hitting friendlies with whatever your favorite BFC is.

These are worth considering. It's tempting to keep WoF around anyways, simply because it's a lower level spell slot which might be able to de-facto deal with the ambush scenario.


It's also Persistable.

With Ocular Spell, yes. But it seems you are going back and forth about whether or not we should assume multiple feats to enhance a spell?

In any case, Animate with the Spirit gives at-will access and lasts for 10 minutes/level.

[Anthrowhale]

The overall list here is pretty combo friendly in general, and this is barely a combo. I'm rather skeptical that saying it's a top spell implies that an archivist should pop it on their list, y'know? Especially because that setup implies that the spell is ranked lower partially because it's also usable by spirit shamans. It is, as you state, a druid spell. It does good thing for druid. I dunno, if you think it should rank lower than polymorph or something because other classes that can use it won't use it, or because wild shape is doing a lot of the work, that could be somewhat justifiable. The idea of excluding it entirely strikes me as rather wild though. It's one of the strongest spells in the game. If you optimize it, it beats out the vast majority of the spells being listed. How much of this stuff is better than literally exclusively will-o'-wisp form for both invisibility and magic immunity? And that's only like the third or fourth best thing you can do.

Enhance Wild Shape seems valid to consider, although I do believe we should take into account only the delta on top of Wild Shape and the opportunity cost associated with committing to a druid vs. other chassis. I'm not counting spell access itself in that opportunity cost however.


Edit: Just noticed an error. Friendly fire is immediate, not swift.
Thanks, fixed.

[Anthrowhale]

I was waiting for the 6th level topic, but it keeps popping up so I'm going to say my piece on planar binding: I don't feel it belongs to the list of top 10 at all.
I'm willing to consider it when we get there. The DM-control aspects are definitely iffy.

[RandomPeasant]

We are considering class-specific spells and have considered alignment-specific ones in the past.

Class-specific is much less specific than Sanctified. It can also be cast on a different day than you use the creature.


Yeah, I get the use. It's a tactic you could use sometimes but it seems inconvenient.

It certainly seems better than wings of flurry at ECL 20.


And apparently it's an easily-available SLA.

So are we not going to put wish on the 9th level list because Efreet exist?


How many opponents are we worried about? If it's a mob, Wall of Sand or plain old Fireball seems pretty adequate at ECL8. If it's just a few Kelpstrand hits well. If it's a mob of high level opponents, you should probably consider running anyways.

Monster HP scales super-linearly. fireball was already inadequate at ECL 6, it's even worse at ECL 8. wall of sand has the notable disadvantage of being much harder to attack into. The nice thing about black tentacles is that it's quite easy to dispatch the enemies you've locked down.


Ability damage is (by definition) a form of damage.

Do you have a rules citation for that definition? "Ability damage" seems quite different from other forms of "damage" inasmuch as, for instance, something that deals "bludgeoning damage" does not reduce your "bludgeoning", nor "fire damage" your "fire".


These are worth considering. It's tempting to keep WoF around anyways, simply because it's a lower level spell slot which might be able to de-facto deal with the ambush scenario.

At ECL 20 you have the same number of 4th and 7th level slots (or maybe one more from a high stat). I'd rather spend the 4th level slots on celerity and the 7th level slots on something useful in a wider variety of situations.


With Ocular Spell, yes.

No, it's just persistable. Touch is a fixed range.

[Anthrowhale]

As I said in the previous thread, I think "no PrCs" is a perfectly principled stance. But then you've got other problems like animate dead needing to be a 2nd level spell. I outlined what I thought was a reasonable set of pretty general rules, but it would put dominate person as a 5th level spell (Domination being a non-Core domain).

Lesser Planar Binding at level 4 off the Nar Demonbinder list is ... interesting.

There is a fightdiscussion to be had about Lesser Planar Binding. If you use it heavily, the odds of attracting something high level with a snuff attack is nontrivial. Dragon #336 features "Exaction" which allows you to make a sacrifice to a planar bound outsider in a manner which explicitly avoids retribution. However, it's a L7 spell. Overall, I'm not sure if I want to open this can of worms until next level.

Domains seem a bit different from prestige classes to me, particularly spell compendium domains. I expect those are about as available as Spell Compendium spells.

[Anthrowhale]

wall of salt generates "a gleaming wall of salt crystal", and the rules for trade goods specify "One pound of salt or silver" sells for 5 GP. So there's not really any RAW angle to nickel-and-dime you on what kind of salt it is. Also, someone suggested that summon monster IV (lantern archon) is better, but I don't think that's actually true. At CL 8, SMIV gives you a lantern archon for 8 rounds, which makes eight everburning torches with SLA continual flame, which comes to 880 GP worth of stuff, which sells for 440 GP. On the other hand, wall of salt gives you eight 8-inch thick 5ft squares, which comes to 16.67 cubic feet which, at the 80 lbs/cubic foot figure I found for salt density, comes to 1333.6 pounds of salt, which is 6668 GP, which sells for full price as a trade good. This also beats selling spellcasting services, which it's not clear to me is RAW-legal.

Or you could Animate with the Spirit[Emprix or Movanic Deva] and cast Continual Flame every round for 80 minutes. By your calculation that's... 26.4k GP after selling off the results?

[Anthrowhale]

Class-specific is much less specific than Sanctified. It can also be cast on a different day than you use the creature.
I'm not following either statement---the first appears false and the second I don't understand.

We already have one sanctified spell on-list.


So are we not going to put wish on the 9th level list because Efreet exist?

I'll worry about that later.


No, it's just persistable. Touch is a fixed range.
That's controversial.

[Anthrowhale]

I just mean that the evaluation is taking place at ECL 8, which is one level before enhance really kicks off. I guess you can use surrogate spellcaster or something if you wanna do this earlier wild shape feat shtick.

I believe Nilshai, Dharculus, and Grell are all available and pretty good at ECL8?

[Chronos]

Wall of Salt is more efficient at generating wealth than Summon Monster IV, but once you're turning spell slots into free wealth, I don't think efficiency matters all that much. What sells me on Summon Monster IV is the versatility. Using a lantern archon to make CL-number of Everburning Torches is one option for the spell, but it's only one option out of many. A lantern archon can also deliver an item of up to 50 pounds anywhere on the plane, unerringly. Or give the whole party a nice buff and all the enemies a nice debuff for a fight, while also contributing some very reliable DPR. Or multiple of those: You could summon a lantern archon for a 5-round battle, make two continual flames, and then send the Macguffin you just recovered to a friendly temple, for instance. A yeth hound can turn the tide of a mass battle, by panicking half of the enemy army. Mephits can give you the effects of a variety of second-level spells, and yes, a fourth-level slot is expensive for that, but sometimes the second-level spell is just what you need and you don't have it. Or you can go for any of the generic beatstick summons.

In particular, the "generate free wealth" option isn't available from any spell of lower level, and the "deliver an item" or "turn the tide of a mass battle" options are not, so far as I know, available from any spell even of the same level.

[eggynack]

Enhance Wild Shape seems valid to consider, although I do believe we should take into account only the delta on top of Wild Shape and the opportunity cost associated with committing to a druid vs. other chassis. I'm not counting spell access itself in that opportunity cost however.

I mean, yeah, you don't consider the high defenses and flight speed. Just the hours/level blindsense. The extra stuff is just really good a lot of the time though. I'm not really sure what it would even mean to evaluate the opportunity cost associated with committing to druid though.


I believe Nilshai, Dharculus, and Grell are all available and pretty good at ECL8?
Yeah, bunch of other nonsense too. It's definitely not a bad setup. Probably a mistake, given how accessible the alternative is, but I just generally think of the natural spell entry point instead of the surrogate spellcasting one.

[Anthrowhale]

In particular, the "generate free wealth" option isn't available from any spell of lower level, and the "deliver an item" or "turn the tide of a mass battle" options are not, so far as I know, available from any spell even of the same level.
Animate with the Spirit seems to have the potential to generate mass wealth and deliver an item. Turn the tide of mass battle would be a good use for Boreal Wind. The Yeth Hound's version is somewhat more subject to friendly fire.

The drawback to Animate with the Spirit and Lesser Planar Ally is that there is no surety about _what_ you get since it's explicitly deity's (i.e. DM's) choice. As a consequence, the result could be _much_ more powerful than SMIV or essentially negligible.

At the moment I'm leaning towards Animate with the Spirit over Lesser Planar Ally since the former is a summons while the latter is a calling effect. Presumably, a summons is much less taxing on a deity's resources. But, even there I'm not sure how to evaluate: does the DM say yes or no to the preferred optimal spirit?


I mean, yeah, you don't consider the high defenses and flight speed. Just the hours/level blindsense. The extra stuff is just really good a lot of the time though. I'm not really sure what it would even mean to evaluate the opportunity cost associated with committing to druid though.

Yeah, it's a tough one. Druid is a pretty good chassis, but it doesn't get domains, turn undead, bonus feats, the native ability to learn any divine spell, etc...

[Fero]

Yeah, it's a tough one. Druid is a pretty good chassis, but it doesn't get domains, turn undead, bonus feats, the native ability to learn any divine spell, etc...

I think you underestimate druids. I personally rate them as the #1 most powerful class in the game. They come online at level #1 and stay dominant through 20.

[Anthrowhale]

I think you underestimate druids. I personally rate them as the #1 most powerful class in the game. They come online at level #1 and stay dominant through 20.

I'm not doubting they are good and Eggynack's deep study of Druids is extremely helpful as a guide.

At the same time, it's hard to ignore other classes which lack as comprehensive of a guide but which plausibly have exceptional capabilities.

Clerics: Persistomancer from L1, use Surge of Fortune+Sense Weakness in mid-levels for automatic kills, exceptional skill access via domains and skill-enhancing spells. At high levels, there is access to several of the top L9 spells via domains.

Wizards: Uncanny Forethought at L1, easy caster level doubling via Theurgic Specialist in the mid-levels, the class with native access to the most top-10 spells so far.

If force to complain about a druid, I'd say:
a) They are a inconsistent as far as stealth. Or rather, the druid's full complement including the AC is inconsistent as far as stealth. Having a stealthy party is pretty nice and the Druid might be the weak link.
b) They are not PRC friendly since the non-spell part of the chassis is substantial. Anything more than a dip typically disrupts their non-spell elements substantially.

[ciopo]

It's extremely easy to bring hide/move silently checks to 20+ with druid/ranger spells, most of those I rememeber for such are either hour/level or 10minutes/level, are personal, and are 1st--3rd, the premiere one is called forestfold iirc,and being personal your AC benefit from it, too.

Saying druids are weak at stealth strikes me as very odd! We have a very easy time at it even without putting ranks, it comes with the chassis and the naturey flavour of druid/ranger spells

I do agree the AC have a bit of a problem with this, at later levels, when we potentially start trotting around with huge-size ones, but at those levels mundane hiding is way past relevance anyway

[RandomPeasant]

If you use it heavily, the odds of attracting something high level with a snuff attack is nontrivial.

The mechanism, let alone odds, of that happening are entirely unspecified. The entirety of the "payback" stuff in the spell is "The creature might later seek revenge". Which is not really concerning if you're running five or six of them at any given time. People would like that to mean "and then maybe the creature's boss's boss's boss comes and ganks you", because for some reason they think this is a good or effective way to balance the spell. But there's a lot of "I'm filling this in because the spell is broken as written" between what is on the page and the idea that you are courting vengeance from demon lords.

And even if you do think it works that way it's fairly easy to use planar binding in a way that does not leave your minions with any desire to seek revenge. You can pay them, and the spell is quite good for generating resources. Especially since, once you start casting it, you can not only offer the products of your own spells to what you're summoning, but also from whatever else you're summoning.


Domains seem a bit different from prestige classes to me, particularly spell compendium domains. I expect those are about as available as Spell Compendium spells.

I think if it's a core spell, it is reasonable to expect people to get it at the levels core classes get it at. I also think domains run into "who is this for" issues. You're picking a package of spells, not a specific one, and by default you only get one slot a day.


Or you could Animate with the Spirit[Emprix or Movanic Deva] and cast Continual Flame every round for 80 minutes. By your calculation that's... 26.4k GP after selling off the results?

I think if we're considering a DM who's going to try to get out of giving you "salt", they are probably going to take the explicit escape hatch animate with the spirit gives them and just not give you the money fountain. wall of salt is good precisely because it just gives you the money, with no room for arguing against you.


I'm not following either statement---the first appears false and the second I don't understand.

Requiring Good alignment and spell preparation is more restrictive than requiring access to a particular class list, particularly because at this point all of them have at least two different classes pulling from them. The duration question is in reference to the advantage lesser planar ally has of lasting up to 1 day/CL, which is substantially longer than animate with the spirit. One of the big advantages of minionmancy is that it can be cast in advance, rather than costing you slots the day of.


We already have one sanctified spell on-list.

Yes, and I would not have put it there.


I'll worry about that later.

You really should worry about defining the framework for what allows spells to qualify for or be disqualified from the list as early as possible. It's very important for consistency. What if the argument goes one way in this thread and another way in the 9th level thread and the result is a list that doesn't follow a consistent framework?


That's controversial.

So is the suggestion that you can expect people to get PAO as a part of their buff routines.


A lantern archon can also deliver an item of up to 50 pounds anywhere on the plane, unerringly.

Not if you've summoned it with summon monster IV it can't:


A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities.


At the moment I'm leaning towards Animate with the Spirit over Lesser Planar Ally since the former is a summons while the latter is a calling effect. Presumably, a summons is much less taxing on a deity's resources. But, even there I'm not sure how to evaluate: does the DM say yes or no to the preferred optimal spirit?

I do not think any DM is doing that level of analysis. Put the one that is generally accessible, lasts multiple days, and works for Favored Souls or whatever on the list.


Yeah, it's a tough one. Druid is a pretty good chassis, but it doesn't get domains, turn undead, bonus feats, the native ability to learn any divine spell, etc...

You actually can get Turn Undead out of Druid. And, while it doesn't get bonus feats, it does get enough class benefits to make you not take PrCs, which the bonus feats aren't.


I think you underestimate druids. I personally rate them as the #1 most powerful class in the game. They come online at level #1 and stay dominant through 20.

It depends on a lot on the specific assumptions you're making. At low-op, Druid is very strong. But other classes pull ahead eventually. Wild Shape doesn't get you that far when other people get Persistent polymorph, and the Druid list is not especially strong. At mid or high-op, I think the Druid is middle of the pack to slightly below average.

[Anthrowhale]

It's extremely easy to bring hide/move silently checks to 20+ with druid/ranger spells, most of those I rememeber for such are either hour/level or 10minutes/level, are personal, and are 1st--3rd, the premiere one is called forestfold iirc,and being personal your AC benefit from it, too.

Saying druids are weak at stealth strikes me as very odd! We have a very easy time at it even without putting ranks, it comes with the chassis and the naturey flavour of druid/ranger spells

I do agree the AC have a bit of a problem with this, at later levels, when we potentially start trotting around with huge-size ones, but at those levels mundane hiding is way past relevance anyway

Examining this a bit, the spells are:

3 Forestfold: hour/level range personal Hide/MS+10(competence)
3 Spiderskin: 10 minutes/level range touch Hide/MS+5(racial)
4 Essence of the Raptor: 10 minutes/level range personal Hide/MS+8(untyped)
2 Chameleon: hour/level range touch Hide+10(circumstance) (Probably not cumulative with the more common Camouflage due to similar circumstance

So that's Hide+33, MS+23. This is good in the early levels, but not so impressive vs (say) the Balor's Spot+38.

A few other points:
(a) Share Spells only remains relevant so long as Druid and AC remain with 5'. This basically means you must ride the AC. And that of course implies basically giving up on the benefits of Wild Shape. So, the AC can hide at low-medium levels if you give up on a premium class feature.
(b) There's a subtle issue with the AC which I'll call "multiple item dependency". Basically, outfitting an AC and yourself is quite expensive. So, for example, if you want to invest in Greater Shadow Armor (+15 competence to hide), that's 67.5K gp,
(c) Hide _never_ goes out of favor---it remains relevant even at very high levels. For example, a cleric can pick up Hide (23 ranks), add in Greater Shadow armor (+15 competence), and PAO[Kelvezu] for a +10 dex bonus, yielding a +48 hide.

[Chronos]

Quoth Fero:

I think you underestimate druids. I personally rate them as the #1 most powerful class in the game. They come online at level #1 and stay dominant through 20.
Indeed. There are only four or five classes in the game that don't suck at level 1, and druid is one of them. And they're very hard to screw up: If you go in to playing one knowing nothing about mechanics and just pick what seems cool, you're likely to still end up with a strong character. If you somehow end up with exactly the wrong set of spells prepared for the day, at worst you still have a bunch of Summon Nature's Ally. And even if you do know how to optimize very well, while a fully-optimized druid might be a little behind a fully-optimized wizard or cleric, it's still so far ahead of anything not Tier 1 as to be ridiculous.

Quoth RandomPeasant:

Requiring Good alignment and spell preparation is more restrictive than requiring access to a particular class list, particularly because at this point all of them have at least two different classes pulling from them.
Sanctified spells require non-evil, not good. And any given class list is used by two or three classes, while "any prepared" still leaves open wizard, cleric, druid, and archivist (plus ranger and paladin, for the low-level spells, and arguably factotum). Sanctified spells look a lot more available, to me, than conventional spell lists.


Not if you've summoned it with summon monster IV it can't:
Ooh, yeah, I missed that. Good find.

[eggynack]

Yeah, it's a tough one. Druid is a pretty good chassis, but it doesn't get domains, turn undead, bonus feats, the native ability to learn any divine spell, etc...
This seems real messy. It's not like I'm out here judging color spray for the fact that it means you have to give up the animal companion. Or a monk's AC bonus for that matter. And hell, it's not like we're criticizing entangle for the fact that you're probably not going to get a familiar. The structure of this as a metric doesn't make much sense. And while, yeah, a druid has different advantages from those of a cleric or wizard, I wouldn't exactly call them an opportunity cost. No more than I'd call the inverse an opportunity cost too, anyways. They're just three very strong classes, and you're not trading your soul for an enhance wild shape.


It depends on a lot on the specific assumptions you're making. At low-op, Druid is very strong. But other classes pull ahead eventually. Wild Shape doesn't get you that far when other people get Persistent polymorph, and the Druid list is not especially strong. At mid or high-op, I think the Druid is middle of the pack to slightly below average.
I would say it's more a matter of level than optimization. At high levels of optimization, a first level druid just seems substantially advantaged against wizards and clerics. The spell lists are broadly comparable, and the animal companion is very strong. This applies also at level six or whatever. Third level druid spells are great, wild shape is great, even the animal companion can contribute a ton. Ninth level too. You get aberration stuff, and fifth level druid spells are very powerful. It's a lot.

I feel like things really start falling apart there. Y'know, relatively. Sixth level spells are very good, but it's not quite as much of an upgrade, and your next feats aren't gonna be as game breaking. Then you get to seventh and eighth level spells, and it's just a frigging mess. The most broken eighth level spell is using fey ring, a sixth level spell, to get a siabrie. Cause you can't do it before that. It's broadly just the same kinda stuff you were doing before except maybe kinda improved. Certainly nothing truly broken. And it's here that clerics and wizards really crush the comparison. Until level 17 when all the classes just become the same, but it's not great in the meantime.

So, I suppose I'm just skeptical that these other classes offer such a huge advantage on a level by level comparison. The druid list has some exceptionally strong stuff, and there're ways to compensate for the gaps.

[RandomPeasant]

There's a subtle issue with the AC which I'll call "multiple item dependency". Basically, outfitting an AC and yourself is quite expensive. So, for example, if you want to invest in Greater Shadow Armor (+15 competence to hide), that's 67.5K gp,

Vow of Poverty, while probably not worth it for the Druid themself, works really well as a feat for their Animal Companion.


Indeed. There are only four or five classes in the game that don't suck at level 1, and druid is one of them.

Most classes don't suck at 1st level. It's certainly true that Druid is one of the best classes at 1st level, but also class power rankings are really weird at 1st level. The Artificer sucks because you need UMD checks you have no hope of making to use your good abilities. The Incarnate is incredible at 1st level because you can break the scaling on soulmelds and get an at-will 3d6 ranged touch attack. 1st level is just not very well correlated with the rest of the game, though the Druid being good there is a fair point in its advantage.


it's still so far ahead of anything not Tier 1 as to be ridiculous.

The gap between T1 and T2 is a lot smaller than people think, and has more to do with delayed spell progression than inherent power. At 12th level, a Beguiler or Dread Necromancer is very much in the same ballpark as the Druid, even if they are a lot worse at 11th or 13th level.


Sanctified spells require non-evil, not good. And any given class list is used by two or three classes, while "any prepared" still leaves open wizard, cleric, druid, and archivist (plus ranger and paladin, for the low-level spells, and arguably factotum). Sanctified spells look a lot more available, to me, than conventional spell lists.

Sanctified spells also can't be learned on level-up. I think you can certainly make the case for including Sanctified spells, but that requires defining your criteria for inclusion more than Anthro is willing to.


They're just three very strong classes, and you're not trading your soul for an enhance wild shape.

And more to the point, getting enhance wild shape (ignoring the poor Spirit Shaman, and idiots who play Shapeshift Druid) means you have the tools to use it. It's not like we're talking about some Cleric spell that requires picking the right domain to go with it. It seems to me that, by any reasonable standard, spell selection is happening after class selection, so if you're considering enhance wild shape, you're in a position to make use of it.

[Chronos]

Quoth RandomPeasant:

Most classes don't suck at 1st level. It's certainly true that Druid is one of the best classes at 1st level, but also class power rankings are really weird at 1st level. The Artificer sucks because you need UMD checks you have no hope of making to use your good abilities. The Incarnate is incredible at 1st level because you can break the scaling on soulmelds and get an at-will 3d6 ranged touch attack. 1st level is just not very well correlated with the rest of the game, though the Druid being good there is a fair point in its advantage.

Most classes do suck at 1st, and that's as it should be. First level is supposed to suck. Spellcasters don't have enough spells to really play as spellcasters. Front-liner classes like the fighter, or even barbarian, warblade, or knight, have to be on the front line to do their thing, where they're at risk of getting one-shot by a lucky crit. Skillmonkeys can pretty much count on a trap blowing up in their face at some point, if they're trying to do skillmonkey things.

Warlocks, dragonfire adepts, and incarnates don't suck at 1st level, because they can stay in the back ranks, but still contribute worthwhile magical things every round. Druids don't suck at first level because their animal companions can play the front-liner role about as well as a fighter, but it's not reroll-a-new-character catastrophic if they eat a crit. Crusaders maybe don't suck, because their delayed damage might keep them alive in the face of a crit long enough that they can heal back up.

[Anthrowhale]

This seems real messy. It's not like I'm out here judging color spray for the fact that it means you have to give up the animal companion. Or a monk's AC bonus for that matter. And hell, it's not like we're criticizing entangle for the fact that you're probably not going to get a familiar. The structure of this as a metric doesn't make much sense. And while, yeah, a druid has different advantages from those of a cleric or wizard, I wouldn't exactly call them an opportunity cost. No more than I'd call the inverse an opportunity cost too, anyways. They're just three very strong classes, and you're not trading your soul for an enhance wild shape.

It's a slightly different judgement I'm trying to make. If any spell was on list, what would you take? Thus you never lose a familiar in considering Entangle, but you do need to consider commiting to druid for enhance wildshape.


I would say it's more a matter of level than optimization.
It would be fun to go through high op ECL1/6/10 builds although that's probably best done in a different thread.

[eggynack]

It's a slightly different judgement I'm trying to make. If any spell was on list, what would you take? Thus you never lose a familiar in considering Entangle, but you do need to consider commiting to druid for enhance wildshape.
This could only plausibly make sense if you're doing a comparison to other classes that get enhance, cause otherwise it doesn't add up that this would be understood differently from color spray or whatever. So, the opportunity cost is presumably in comparison to, like, archivist, spirit shaman, taking a wild shape losing ACF, and whatever else gets the spell without being able to use it. Domains aren't really a consideration, as a result. Given that, this argument is premised entirely on the existence of specific classes with specific deals. Like, the spell was being counted better before Heroes of Horror came out, but now it loses points because it can be taken by a class that's bad at it.

Which, that's weird? That's a weird mode of evaluation. I gave a bunch of examples before, but what about, say, wings of flurry? This spell is, to a meaningful extent, the advantage you pick up for not being a wizard. One of them anyway. Wings of flurry is actually more pertinent than enhance, because sorcerer high key is a crappy wizard variant in a way that druid is decidedly not a crappy archivist variant. Let alone a crappy cleric variant. And yet, I think it would be rather silly to call wings of flurry a weaker spell because you have to be a sorcerer to access it.

[Anthrowhale]

But there's a lot of "I'm filling this in because the spell is broken as written"
Agreed here. Nevertheless, DMs may indeed balance things this way given the suggestion in the spell. Running many outsiders at the same time may increase the odds of getting attention from a lord. It probably also depends on what you are binding as well. Demons don't really organize well, and it's not super-clear that they would even notice or care about missing minions "Whatever, sucks to be you". Devils would seem much more likely to notice and they might care if enough are being killed off to disrupt plans. Angels might notice and organize a counter relatively quickly.

Incidentally, there's a handbook here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?531126-Attempting-to-create-a-Planar-Binding-handbook-Need-some-help). The Mirror Mephit is pretty nuts.



And even if you do think it works that way it's fairly easy to use planar binding in a way that does not leave your minions with any desire to seek revenge. You can pay them, and the spell is quite good for generating resources. Especially since, once you start casting it, you can not only offer the products of your own spells to what you're summoning, but also from whatever else you're summoning.

The 1000gp/hd rate of Planar Ally is pretty rough. It's certainly doable if you have an infinite wealth generation scheme (which Planar Binding provides), but I wouldn't be surprised if DMs use supply&demand arguments to limit the amount of wealth generation---I've certainly done that sort of thing in the past.

Once you access Exaction (7th level spell), there is a 50 gp/hd rate available which is far more tolerable.



I think if it's a core spell, it is reasonable to expect people to get it at the levels core classes get it at. I also think domains run into "who is this for" issues. You're picking a package of spells, not a specific one, and by default you only get one slot a day.

I think it's very reasonable for a cleric to use the spontaneous domain ACF.



I think if we're considering a DM who's going to try to get out of giving you "salt", they are probably going to take the explicit escape hatch animate with the spirit gives them and just not give you the money fountain. wall of salt is good precisely because it just gives you the money, with no room for arguing against you.

Again, saturation of the local economy is another out.


Requiring Good alignment and spell preparation is more restrictive than requiring access to a particular class list, particularly because at this point all of them have at least two different classes pulling from them.

I'm with Chronos here---it doesn't actually seem that specific to me.


The duration question is in reference to the advantage lesser planar ally has of lasting up to 1 day/CL, which is substantially longer than animate with the spirit.

6000gp is pretty expensive for lesser planar ally if you had to pay it out of WBL.


What if the argument goes one way in this thread and another way in the 9th level thread and the result is a list that doesn't follow a consistent framework?

Aliens will note a rip in the spacetime continuum centered on earth is expanding steadily to to consume the universe at approximately 1/10th light speed.


So is the suggestion that you can expect people to get PAO as a part of their buff routines.

You really don't like PAO eh? Touch-is-fixed is a rules controversy. Use of PAO or not is not a rules controversy.


You actually can get Turn Undead out of Druid.
Do you mean something other than the Bone of Turning? That allows you to Turn Undead, but doesn't seem to effectively allow divine metamagic.

[Quertus]

No, it's just persistable. Touch is a fixed range.


That's controversial.

OK, I admit, you did say something about "works at all tables" (my words, not yours), you did say that we're going with something of a "least favorable interpretation" here.

However.

Let's say I'm a 15'x15' caster with 10' reach. Let's number the squares, and put my center square at (0,0). Floating inside me is a medium Ghost caster (I'm also a ghost, so I don't block LoS or LoE), a 5'x5' caster with 5' reach, whose center is also at (0,0).

If we both cast a spell with range "Touch", then I can cast it on someone standing in, say, square (3,0), whereas the 5'x5' ghost cannot. Fine.

But let's say the spell has a 10' range. Is it not also the case that I can cast it on the person at (3,0), whereas the 5'x5' caster cannot?

In this scenario, is it not the case that, if Touch spells are not valid for Persist, then no spells are valid for persist, because the range at which these 2 ghosts can have the spells take effect differs for all spells?

Controversial as "Touch is Persistable" may be, I think "Touch is not a valid range for Persist" fails to basic logic (or makes Persist do nothing by RAW). "How far can different sized casters cast the spell in practice" feels like a Dysfunction, rather than a reasonable basis for a rule, unless there's a rule that says something like "spells always use the center square (which doesn't even exist on a 10'x10' caster, so is itself a Dysfunction) when determining range", making spells with explicit ranges function meaningfully differently than touch ranged spells.

Otherwise, I could just tell you all the silly house rules misinterpretations of the rules I've seen (like "metamagics are free"!), and that would be equally valid for determining the worst-case scenarios with which to evaluate all potential spells.

[ciopo]

What I find most confusing is "why is fixed range, as a category, something eligible as persistible".

I understand personal, it makes sense to me, "I want my buffs to last all day long"

I understand those with variable range are usually spells whose target are "other people", and if the primary reason for persisting stuff is "self buff", excluding stuff that targetenemies/allies, makes some sense.

But fixed range as a category it... it's a big ??? In how it doesn't map to use!

I'd rather it was classified as "spells that target you or are otherwise centered on you"

[Fero]

What I find most confusing is "why is fixed range, as a category, something eligible as persistible".

I understand personal, it makes sense to me, "I want my buffs to last all day long"

I understand those with variable range are usually spells whose target are "other people", and if the primary reason for persisting stuff is "self buff", excluding stuff that targetenemies/allies, makes some sense.

But fixed range as a category it... it's a big ??? In how it doesn't map to use!

I'd rather it was classified as "spells that target you or are otherwise centered on you"

I think the drafters just wanted to allow people to persist detection spells and didn't consider the other uses.

[RandomPeasant]

It's a slightly different judgement I'm trying to make. If any spell was on list, what would you take? Thus you never lose a familiar in considering Entangle, but you do need to consider commiting to druid for enhance wildshape.

Again, I don't understand how this is consistent with not counting Trapsmith spells. If we're considering "any spell, agnostic of class", it only makes sense to do that for the things that let you pick agnostic of class, and those things let you pick from weird PrC lists or accelerated progression classes.


Nevertheless, DMs may indeed balance things this way given the suggestion in the spell.

I do not understand why you think "DMs will read in extra vindictiveness to planar binding" is reasonable but "DMs will not let you do whatever you want with one of the most broken spells in the game" is not. Either we are talking about practical expectations of gameplay or we are talking about strict RAW.


The 1000gp/hd rate of Planar Ally is pretty rough. It's certainly doable if you have an infinite wealth generation scheme (which Planar Binding provides), but I wouldn't be surprised if DMs use supply&demand arguments to limit the amount of wealth generation---I've certainly done that sort of thing in the past.

I think the best solution is to just do what the 1st level list does for faith healing and lesser vigor. They're very similar spells, and putting one over the other is probably not worth arguing over.


I think it's very reasonable for a cleric to use the spontaneous domain ACF.

I think "this is available to a character with this specific domain and this specific ACF" is not really a reasonable standard for a general-purpose list.


Again, saturation of the local economy is another out.

Not by RAW. And not really in practice either, because unless you're just declaring that demand runs out right when people get up to WBL people are going to get enough money to break the game even if they get a non-infinite amount of money. If the price of everburning torches falls by 90% as a result of flooding the market, an archon from lesser planar ally makes 7776 GP per day, after accounting for selling at half and buying the torches. That's enough to double your WBL in about five days, even if you pay the archon in cash.


You really don't like PAO eh? Touch-is-fixed is a rules controversy. Use of PAO or not is not a rules controversy.

Yes I think the thing that allows you to turn into any printed creature is broken (your attempt to read in a 15 HD limit is still unsupported by RAW) and should not be considered a part of standard analysis in the same way that "infinite money from planar binding" should not. And, no, "touch is fixed" is not controversial. There's an actual first party example of an NPC that uses it in Elder Evils!


I'd rather it was classified as "spells that target you or are otherwise centered on you"

Honestly the broken part is the fact that it jumps things up to 24 hours regardless of base duration. If it didn't do that, it could just work with whatever and that would be fine. The best fix I've seen was to make both Extend and Persistent increase duration by one category (e.g. rounds/level to minutes/level), both have +1 adjustment, and let them stack. That way it works for making buffs last a long time, but doesn't let you do the really crazy stuff like Persistent wraithstrike (and tones down divine power, though honestly I think people complain too much about that one).


I think the drafters just wanted to allow people to persist detection spells and didn't consider the other uses.

I think at some point Persistent Spell said "a range of a fixed number of feet or personal range" rather than "a fixed or personal range". This also explains why "personal" is called out separately from "fixed", despite the fact that "personal" is pretty clearly a fixed range, insofar as you cannot possibly be a different person than yourself (I suspect this is part of why people think "touch" isn't a fixed range).

[Chronos]

Quoth ciopo:

What I find most confusing is "why is fixed range, as a category, something eligible as persistible".

I understand personal, it makes sense to me, "I want my buffs to last all day long"

I understand those with variable range are usually spells whose target are "other people", and if the primary reason for persisting stuff is "self buff", excluding stuff that targetenemies/allies, makes some sense.

But fixed range as a category it... it's a big ??? In how it doesn't map to use!

Finally, someone else saying this! The reason why "is touch fixed" is so controversial is because there is no reasonable answer to it, because we have no idea why a restriction on range is part of something that affects spell durations.

And then, to make it worse, this is the only thing in the game that refers to "fixed range", so it's not even clear "fixed with respect to what". Does it mean that there's no randomness in the range? Does it mean that it doesn't change for any given caster? That it's the same for every single caster?

[RandomPeasant]

Finally, someone else saying this! The reason why "is touch fixed" is so controversial is because there is no reasonable answer to it, because we have no idea why a restriction on range is part of something that affects spell durations.

I don't really see how that follows at all. Lots of stuff is related not for any fundamental reason, but because the designers thought that it made sense that way. Almost every PrC pre-req is like this. Why do you need to have Hide and Bluff ranks to be a Shadowcraft Mage? Because the designers though those skills (and not, say, Forgery or Move Silently) were cool things to make Gnomes pick up. That's why Persistent Spell is limited to certain ranges.

As I said, I think the source of confusion is not "why does this care about range", but "why does this call out Personal separately". Touch is clearly a fixed range (unlike Close or Medium), but Personal is also clearly a fixed range. So people are primed to read some additional detail into "fixed" that isn't there in an effort to understand why Personal needs to be called out separately. But "the editing seems weird" doesn't change the RAW.

[Chronos]

Hide is relevant to a shadowcraft mage because they need to be very familiar with shadows, and Hide is the best skill to cover familiarity with shadows. It makes thematic sense. Likewise, they need Bluff, because the class is all about convincing people that things are real when they're not.

But why are certain spells eligible for a duration boost, and not others, based on their range? There's no explanation for why that would work. And if ambiguities come up, we can't answer them based on "What was the intention of the designers?", because we don't know what they were intending.

[RandomPeasant]

Hide is relevant to a shadowcraft mage because they need to be very familiar with shadows, and Hide is the best skill to cover familiarity with shadows. It makes thematic sense. Likewise, they need Bluff, because the class is all about convincing people that things are real when they're not.

None of that explains why the class shouldn't require Forgery, the skill that is specifically about making things that are fake and convincing people they are real (or Disguise).


But why are certain spells eligible for a duration boost, and not others, based on their range? There's no explanation for why that would work.

Why are control weather, flesh to stone, polymorph, telekinesis, bull's strength, and temporal stasis all in the same school? Particularly when orb of fire and fireball are in different schools?


And if ambiguities come up, we can't answer them based on "What was the intention of the designers?", because we don't know what they were intending.

Why would you want to resolve ambiguities that way? If the designers couldn't figure out how to say what they meant, what makes you think they had the best idea for how the ambiguous cases should work?

[Anthrowhale]

...


...


...


..

The reason why this "touch is not eligible" is controversial is because it was explicitly not eligible in 3.0. You can see this by looking at Persistent Spell in FRCS:

spells with a range of touch...cannot be affected by this feat.
The specific declaration that touch is ineligible does not appear in either Deities & Demigods or Tome and Blood even though they are also 3.0. However, this is also explicitly addressed in the 3.0 FAQ available here (https://web.archive.org/web/20201111194213/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20070731a) where they declare that Touch range is ineligible. There's another variation: Persistent spell is +4 metamagic in 3.0 and +6 in 3.5. Altogether, you see;

FRCS: +4 metamagic, touch forbidden, June 1, 2001
Tome & Blood: +4 metamagic, touch unmentioned, July 1, 2001
Deities & Demigods: +4 metamagic, touch unmentioned, Feb 1, 2002
3.0 FAQ: touch forbidden, last updated, Aug 15, 2003.
PGtF: +6 metamagic, touch unmentioned, Mar 1, 2004
Complete Arcane: +6 metamagic, touch unmentioned, Nov 1, 2004
Exemplars of Evil: Persistent spell used with touch range in a statblock, Sep 18, 2007.

That's a track record which just leads to inherent controversy.


Again, I don't understand how this is consistent with not counting Trapsmith spells. If we're considering "any spell, agnostic of class", it only makes sense to do that for the things that let you pick agnostic of class, and those things let you pick from weird PrC lists or accelerated progression classes.

Trapsmith seems rather exotic to me---I've never actually run into a trapsmith character. I'm also underwhelmed by leveled-low spells which are encountered ECL-late. That obviates much of the value you might see when just looking at spell level.

The case for Planar Binding off of Demonologist seems similar, although it's at least getting planar binding at a lower ECL. Nevertheless, I'm inclined to not assume a super-permissive DM.

I do not understand why you think "DMs will read in extra vindictiveness to planar binding" is reasonable but "DMs will not let you do whatever you want with one of the most broken spells in the game" is not. Either we are talking about practical expectations of gameplay or we are talking about strict RAW.

Yeah, it's not clear there's a strong difference.



I think the best solution is to just do what the 1st level list does for faith healing and lesser vigor. They're very similar spells, and putting one over the other is probably not worth arguing over.

There are actually 4 spells we've mentioned which are filling the same 'niche'. They are:
SMIV: a no-talkback short duration access to a number of basic SLAs.
Planar Ally: Deity (aka DM) chooses creature with potential access to very strong SLAs at a high cost.
Animate with the Spirit: Deity (aka DM) chooses creature with potential access to very strong SLAs at a modest cost. Also resets timeline for Last Breath.
Planar Binding: Player chooses creature, so strongest SLA access, but with the retribution clause. Only available from esoteric Demonologist list.



I think "this is available to a character with this specific domain and this specific ACF" is not really a reasonable standard for a general-purpose list.

Or Evangelist Cleric, or Spontaneous Cleric, or Triadspell. There are a number of paths which makes "multiple uses of a domain spell in a day" seem not terribly esoteric to me.


Not by RAW.

I agree economics are not a part of RAW. Nevertheless, I've seen it in actual games.

[Remuko]

The reason why this "touch is not eligible" is controversial is because it was explicitly not eligible in 3.0. You can see this by looking at Persistent Spell in FRCS:

The specific declaration that touch is ineligible does not appear in either Deities & Demigods or Tome and Blood even though they are also 3.0. However, this is also explicitly addressed in the 3.0 FAQ available here (https://web.archive.org/web/20201111194213/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20070731a) where they declare that Touch range is ineligible. There's another variation: Persistent spell is +4 metamagic in 3.0 and +6 in 3.5. Altogether, you see;

FRCS: +4 metamagic, Touch forbidden, June 1, 2001
Tome & Blood: +4 metamagic, Touch unmentioned, July 1, 2001
Deities & Demigods: +4 metamagic, touch unmentioned, Feb 1, 2002
3.0 FAQ: Touch forbidden, last updated, Aug 15, 2003.
PGtF: +6 metamagic, touch unmentioned, Mar 1, 2004
Complete Arcane: +6 metamagic, touch unmentioned, Nov 1, 2004
Exemplars of Evil: Persistent spell used in a statblock, Sep 18, 2007.

That's a track record which just leads to inherent controversy.

im not here to get deep into this, but imo, them raising the adjustment on the metamagic seems to make the case for touch being allowed better. without it being allowed the increase isn't justified imo. but them saying "hey lets drop the touch restriction" "okay then the adjustment needs to go up a bit" "yeah thats fair" makes more sense.

[Anthrowhale]

im not here to get deep into this, but imo, them raising the adjustment on the metamagic seems to make the case for touch being allowed better. without it being allowed the increase isn't justified imo. but them saying "hey lets drop the touch restriction" "okay then the adjustment needs to go up a bit" "yeah thats fair" makes more sense.

I could imagine that flying at some tables. Others will note that touch is disallowed by the scope wording for Persistent Spell in T&B and D&D, then note that note that the same scope wording is used in PGtF and CA to conclude that touch range is disallowed and the adjustment in metamagic cost was just a game balance decision in the 3.0->3.5 transition.

Incidentally, I believe that a more balanced version of Persistent Spell would operate with a variable level adjustment like Fortify Spell, with each additional level adjustment doubling the duration. This would mean a +6 adjusted Wraithstrike would only last 64 rounds---potent, but nowhere near a full day effect. In practice, you might use a +2 or +3 adjust (i.e. a 4th or 5th level slot) for 4 or 8 round duration.

[RandomPeasant]

The reason why this "touch is not eligible" is controversial is because it was explicitly not eligible in 3.0.

Why would it be controversial that a feat does not work the way it worked in an addition that is no longer current? Is it also controversial whether haste lets you take extra standard actions in 3.5?


There are actually 4 spells we've mentioned which are filling the same 'niche'. They are:

summon monster IV is not filling the same niche as the others. It has a casting time that allows you to use it tactically, and a duration that means you have to use it that way. Even animate with the spirit lasts long enough that you can reasonably expect to use it for multiple encounters. As far as lesser planar binding goes, I would certainly say that if we are including it, it should be included in the same entry (as should the planar ally/planar binding and greater planar ally/greater planar binding). They're all "you get a 6HD outsider" with some quibbling over the details, none of them are different enough to warrant separate entries.


Or Evangelist Cleric, or Spontaneous Cleric, or Triadspell. There are a number of paths which makes "multiple uses of a domain spell in a day" seem not terribly esoteric to me.

I could say the same thing about getting Trapsmith spells (Artificer, Archivist, Erudite, Runestaves).


I agree economics are not a part of RAW. Nevertheless, I've seen it in actual games.

I could say the same thing about restrictions on polymorph any object.


I could imagine that flying at some tables. Others will note that touch is disallowed by the scope wording for Persistent Spell in T&B and D&D, then note that note that the same scope wording is used in PGtF and CA to conclude that touch range is disallowed and the adjustment in metamagic cost was just a game balance decision in the 3.0->3.5 transition.

But it's not the same wording. It's similar wording, but CA discards the examples of fixed range spells (it also flips the order from "personal range or a fixed range" to "fixed or personal range"). I also strongly suspect that most tables are not aware of how things worked in 3.0, and are not going to make decisions on that basis. Taken in a vacuum, "touch" is clearly a fixed range, and most tables are going to take it in a vacuum. The controversy is not a result of "is touch fixed" being ambiguous on its own terms, but of the "why is personal not also fixed" question, and a desire that exists among some people to try to find RAW-compatible reasons why things they think are too powerful don't work.

[Anthrowhale]

summon monster IV is not filling the same niche as the others. It has a casting time that allows you to use it tactically, and a duration that means you have to use it that way. Even animate with the spirit lasts long enough that you can reasonably expect to use it for multiple encounters.

While this is true, all of these are only really interesting due to the SLAs they potentially bring.


As far as lesser planar binding goes, I would certainly say that if we are including it, it should be included in the same entry (as should the planar ally/planar binding and greater planar ally/greater planar binding). They're all "you get a 6HD outsider" with some quibbling over the details, none of them are different enough to warrant separate entries.

Whether it's your choice or DM's choice could make a vast difference in practice, right?


I could say the same thing about getting Trapsmith spells (Artificer, Archivist, Erudite, Runestaves).

Except Trapsmith is a class that almost no one takes.


I could say the same thing about restrictions on polymorph any object.

And you should, and you did. Thank you.


But it's not the same wording. It's similar wording, but CA discards the examples of fixed range spells (it also flips the order from "personal range or a fixed range" to "fixed or personal range").

I agree there are syntactic changes, but I don't believe there is a semantic change. The parentheticals are grammatically supposed to be explanatory rather than semantic, and "personal range or a fixed range" seems to have the same semantics as "fixed or personal range".


I also strongly suspect that most tables are not aware of how things worked in 3.0, and are not going to make decisions on that basis.
Actually, I suspect a big part of the reason for the controversy is that many 3.0 tables transitioned to 3.5, noted the same (semantic-same) wording and just applied the recognized 3.0 consequence of that semantic wording.

[eggynack]

Really do feel like I should reiterate, enhance wild shape is one of the best druid spells. Like, out of all of them. It's definitely the best at fourth level, so anything that's got a D next to it could be safely swapped with enhance and thus produce a more accurate list. You could also probably ditch most of the things without a D next to them. Cause it's broken and such.

[Chronos]

Summon Monster and Planar X aren't just useful for the access they give to SLAs. That's the most powerful effect of them, to be sure, but they also let you just plain put more bodies on the battlefield, and sometimes that's exactly what you need. Versatility has value.

[Fero]

Really do feel like I should reiterate, enhance wild shape is one of the best druid spells. Like, out of all of them. It's definitely the best at fourth level, so anything that's got a D next to it could be safely swapped with enhance and thus produce a more accurate list. You could also probably ditch most of the things without a D next to them. Cause it's broken and such.

I concur (at least with the first part). I am a wizard player. I like wizards. At mid high levels, long after the T1s have (perhaps unintentionally) destroyed any semblance of balance, wizards, artificers, etc. Can, maybe overtake the Druid. Before that, largely unimportant point, the Druid is just better.

Druids are so good that, even the most aggressive optimizer I know stopped trying hard way through the class features because it was too much work to keep track of everything and the extra power was just unimportant.

Druids start the game with 3 HD and two attacks per round. They have the two best non-spellcasting features of all base classes (at least in the PHB). They have one of the 4 great spell lists, and perhaps the most versatile of the four. Druids are so good that virtually all PrCs are a strict downgrade to the base class.

I love wizards. However, I have played enough to know that, when it matters, the Druids are the ones who bring the most raw power to the table.

[RandomPeasant]

While this is true, all of these are only really interesting due to the SLAs they potentially bring.

That has more to do with in-combat summoning being a strategy that is not particularly good than any real similarity between summon monster IV and planar ally. Which I would take as suggesting that summon monster IV doesn't really make the cut.


Whether it's your choice or DM's choice could make a vast difference in practice, right?

Sure, but so does "how hard does your DM try to hit you with the revenge clause". Or look at it from the other direction: suppose both planar binding and planar ally are good enough that, in the absence of the other, they'd deserve a place on the list. Do you think either "put them both on the list in separate slots" or "figure out which one we think is better and ignore the other completely" produces a better list than "list them in a shared slot, with an explanation that planar binding is better with a permissive DM and planar ally is better with a restrictive DM"?


Except Trapsmith is a class that almost no one takes.

The Artificer doesn't care if no one takes Trapsmith. Trapsmiths simply existing in the game at all is sufficient for them to scribe scrolls of haste as a 1st level spell, or call it with spell-storing item. The Archivist and the runestaff are a bit more restricted, in that both require you to assume that a Trapsmith who is willing to craft items exists somewhere in the setting (and has whatever stuff you want to use to make divine scrolls, in the case of the Archivist). Only the Erudite requires you to even meet someone with Trapsmith levels, and even they can theoretically (assuming I am not forgetting the mechanics of a class I have never played) get their haste passed along from Erudite to Erudite.

And, more than that, if we're evaluating "almost no one takes" as a criteria, doesn't that disqualify all the web enhancement spells? I've seen more people play a weird and obscure PrC than show up to a table with "hey I found this on the WotC website, can I use it". As with PAO, I think you need to develop a clear framework for what you are or are not using as criteria for evaluation, which is why I keep hammering on these things.


I agree there are syntactic changes, but I don't believe there is a semantic change. The parentheticals are grammatically supposed to be explanatory rather than semantic, and "personal range or a fixed range" seems to have the same semantics as "fixed or personal range".

But isn't the existence of a clarifying FAQ indicative of the fact that the semantics of that text, in isolation, is that it includes "touch"? The reason it excludes touch in 3.0 is that it started out doing that explicitly and "the same rules object has the same rules in the same edition" is an important principle of consistency. But 3.5 is a different edition from 3.0, so the continuity is unnecessary. And the version they chose to print into 3.5 is the version that does not include the restriction.


Really do feel like I should reiterate, enhance wild shape is one of the best druid spells. Like, out of all of them. It's definitely the best at fourth level, so anything that's got a D next to it could be safely swapped with enhance and thus produce a more accurate list. You could also probably ditch most of the things without a D next to them. Cause it's broken and such.

I would quibble that it is not one of the best Druid spells, but one of the best spells for Druids. To some degree that's an irrelevant distinction, as it's not on the Cleric or Wizard lists, but if you think the list is "what spells would you pick if you could pick from all the spells", it's relevant that enhance wild shape is pretty terrible for the classes that can do that. No Artificer is going to go crafting wands of enhance wild shape (unless he plans to just hand them off to his Druid friend), while a wand of polymorph is perfectly reasonable for them.

That said, I agree in practice that the spell should be on the list, because it is far enough ahead of things that are currently on there (looking at you, boreal wind) to overcome these types of concerns, at least based on how the list has otherwise been implemented.


Summon Monster and Planar X aren't just useful for the access they give to SLAs. That's the most powerful effect of them, to be sure, but they also let you just plain put more bodies on the battlefield, and sometimes that's exactly what you need. Versatility has value.

The combat summoning version of summon monster is not particularly good. It's almost always worse than summon nature's ally, and I don't think SNA would make this list unless you were ranking it with all the stuff Druids can do to boost it (e.g. Greenbound Summoning). Even then I'm not totally sure it makes sense to add to the list, because no Druid is ever going to prepare it since they can cash in for it spontaneously. Fair point as regards lesser planar ally, though.


They have one of the 4 great spell lists, and perhaps the most versatile of the four.

This part is just not remotely true. The Druid and Cleric lists are massively worse than the Wizard list, and the Druid list only (arguably) beats out the Cleric list because it comes stapled to Wild Shape and an Animal Companion, which many of the spells synergize with. The Spirit Shaman would be substantially better if it could swap to either of the other big three lists.

[remetagross]

I've personally played a Trapsmith, and it was neat.

[Anthrowhale]

Apologies for tardiness---real life has been busy.

I've rejigged the lists based on comments, adding in Enhance Wild Shape, Animate with the Spirit, and Dimensional Anchor, with some additional commentary.

My "uncertain" list has Dweomer of Transference and Shadow Conjuration, so arguments against those or about what is weakest in the existing list are very welcome. I'm hesitating on Desert Burial at the moment, because of the situational nature.

I swapped down Boreal Wind and Revenance. Orb of Fire/Force doesn't seem to keep up with Wings of Flurry very well since it has only modestly more range and single target vs. multitarget.


enhance wild shape
Done.

...they also let you just plain put more bodies on the battlefield, and sometimes that's exactly what you need.
I added an entry here.

Before that, largely unimportant point, the Druid is just better.
I'm less sure of this. An Uncanny Forethought Wizard at level 1 can be pretty amazing and Theurgic Specialist hits hard at ECL6 with Knight of the Weave. On the cleric side Persistomancy starts at level 1 and grows rapidly in power with level making an amazing gish, all while avoiding multiple-item-dependency.


...
I've added an entry. It leads with Animate with the Spirit, but discusses alternates.



...Trapsmith...

So far, I've been mostly mentioning things, but not placing them directly on the list, it seems.


And the version they chose to print into 3.5 is the version that does not include the restriction.

It's a good story, except that 2 out of 3 printings in 3.0 also did not include the restriction.


I would quibble that it is not one of the best Druid spells, but one of the best spells for Druids. To some degree that's an irrelevant distinction, as it's not on the Cleric or Wizard lists, but if you think the list is "what spells would you pick if you could pick from all the spells", it's relevant that enhance wild shape is pretty terrible for the classes that can do that. No Artificer is going to go crafting wands of enhance wild shape (unless he plans to just hand them off to his Druid friend), while a wand of polymorph is perfectly reasonable for them.

It's sort of lame in the sense that it requires a feat to really use, but 2 spells/round all day is a very powerful effect, not really matched until Shapechange.

I've personally played a Trapsmith, and it was neat.
Ah! That's great.

[RandomPeasant]

My "uncertain" list has Dweomer of Transference and Shadow Conjuration, so arguments against those or about what is weakest in the existing list are very welcome. I'm hesitating on Desert Burial at the moment, because of the situational nature.

mark of the enlightened soul is not nearly so good as you are giving it credit for. I have yet to see any evidence that effects that boost damage boost ability damage, and without that you're left with a spell that is just not very good. Spending a 9th level spell to empower three 8th level spells in the same fight is a lot of resources that you are burning in a way that just doesn't seem terribly efficient.

Also, unless there's errata I'm not aware of, it specifies "one sorcerer spell slot". Which makes the spell even more disappointing, because as a Sorcerer you get three 8th level spells ever, so you'd better figure out which of polymorph any object, greater planar binding, and trap the soul you're not getting in favor of a blasting spell to psuedo-Empower.


I'm less sure of this. An Uncanny Forethought Wizard at level 1 can be pretty amazing and Theurgic Specialist hits hard at ECL6 with Knight of the Weave. On the cleric side Persistomancy starts at level 1 and grows rapidly in power with level making an amazing gish, all while avoiding multiple-item-dependency.

The thing is all of those are way more work than the Druid. The Druid just has a wolf and casts entangle and those are PHB options. The Druid is kind of weird in that the difference between the build of an 80th percentile Druid and a 20th percentile Druid build is pretty small and a huge portion of optimizing the class is using your class package more effectively.


It's a good story, except that 2 out of 3 printings in 3.0 also did not include the restriction.

You mean the printings the FAQ had to clarify don't work with Touch spells? The reason those things inherent the restriction isn't that the text implies it. It's that the first printed version was the FRCS one, which explicitly has it, so the principle of "the same thing works the same way" means they need it. But "3.5 Persistent Spell" and "3.0 Persistent Spell" aren't the same thing, and the text 3.5 Persistent Spell has (in all its versions) is the text that does not exclude Touch spells.


It's sort of lame in the sense that it requires a feat to really use, but 2 spells/round all day is a very powerful effect, not really matched until Shapechange.

arcane spellsurge does effectively the same thing, and minionmancy is in some ways better (having your pet Glabzeru do stuff does not burn your limited spell slots twice as fast), but it is a very powerful effect. And even without the feat it's not bad. You get stuff like Pounce that you don't normally.

[eggynack]

And even without the feat it's not bad. You get stuff like Pounce that you don't normally.
Pounce is a special attack, so you pick it up no matter what. What you do get is vision modes, blindsense and blindsight being two of the most useful, immunities, with stuff like plant immunities listed explicitly as Ex special qualities in some spots or electricity immunity off of shambling mound, and wacky nonsense like fast healing off of dung snakes. It's a pretty strong collection of effects, and the duration is good, but it's not exactly game breaking. I would say the sensory capabilities are the most important part. It's like your main way of doing that.

I'm kinda surprised by grell being given so much prominence, incidentally. 60 ft. blindsight is good, but it's not exactly special, accessible even with basic wild shape. Dolgaunt gets blindsight out to 360 ft. if that's what you're after. Grell's main thing is illusion immunity, which is nice but also not unique. I'd probably go with will-o'-wisp as the third best form, with outright immunity to magic, permanent invisibility, a 50 ft. perfect flight speed, and high AC and dexterity, the first two of these abilities being granted by enhance. You don't get any vision modes unless you count darkvision, but it's not the end of the world.

[Anthrowhale]

mark of the enlightened soul is not nearly so good as you are giving it credit for. I have yet to see any evidence that effects that boost damage boost ability damage, and without that you're left with a spell that is just not very good.

I'll keep in mind, but I do consider ability damage to be a form of damage, just like nonlethal damage, fire damage, and bludgeoning damage. This seems self-evident.


The thing is all of those are way more work than the Druid.

If you track back the discussion, Fero was discussing 'under optimization'. I do agree that the Druid's have a strong baseline.


You mean the printings the FAQ had to clarify don't work with Touch spells? The reason those things inherent the restriction isn't that the text implies it. It's that the first printed version was the FRCS one, which explicitly has it, so the principle of "the same thing works the same way" means they need it. But "3.5 Persistent Spell" and "3.0 Persistent Spell" aren't the same thing, and the text 3.5 Persistent Spell has (in all its versions) is the text that does not exclude Touch spells.

It's a theory. It's not a strong enough one to make touch for persistent not controversial.


arcane spellsurge does effectively the same thing,
Sort of (we already have some pretty good actions), and it's a 7th level spell.

I would say the sensory capabilities are the most important part. It's like your main way of doing that.

Linked Perception is already extremely good here as well.



I'm kinda surprised by grell being given so much prominence, incidentally. 60 ft. blindsight is good, but it's not exactly special, accessible even with basic wild shape. Dolgaunt gets blindsight out to 360 ft. if that's what you're after. Grell's main thing is illusion immunity, which is nice but also not unique. I'd probably go with will-o'-wisp as the third best form, with outright immunity to magic, permanent invisibility, a 50 ft. perfect flight speed, and high AC and dexterity, the first two of these abilities being granted by enhance. You don't get any vision modes unless you count darkvision, but it's not the end of the world.
Will-o'-wisp is 9HD.

Dolgaunt's blindsight is impressive---I'll make a note.

I'll tweak to point out the combat abilities of Grells. Grells have 10 tentacle attacks with poison making a Grell form subject to Venomfire and an extra casting of Enhance Wildshape (for Str+2) have an attack routine of 10 tentacles +8 melee (1d4+1+paralyzation+8d6 acid). That's a very potent melee form, only really lacking a form of pounce. At later levels, you can afford specialized riverine spears and a mouthpick weapon to turn that into iteratives with a 15' reach.

[RandomPeasant]

I'll keep in mind, but I do consider ability damage to be a form of damage, just like nonlethal damage, fire damage, and bludgeoning damage. This seems self-evident.

There's a very obvious difference between "ability damage" and all those other forms of damage, namely that all of them still do HP damage.


It's a theory. It's not a strong enough one to make touch for persistent not controversial.

It doesn't need to be, because there is a published example of a Persistent touch spell (persistent bear's endurance, page 117 of Elder Evils). All the weird arguing about 3.0 is a sideshow. The first-party material says you can do it.


Will-o'-wisp is 9HD.

That's a limitation of the way you are constructing the list, not the spell.

[Anthrowhale]

There's a very obvious difference between "ability damage" and all those other forms of damage, namely that all of them still do HP damage.
I'm sticking with <adjective> <noun> implies <noun> as per standard English here.

Nevertheless, I haven't ruled out deprioritizing MotES. It's a potent effect, but so are Dweomer of Transference and Shadow Conjuration.

[Chronos]

Quoth Anthrowhale:

I'll keep in mind, but I do consider ability damage to be a form of damage, just like nonlethal damage, fire damage, and bludgeoning damage. This seems self-evident.
For comparison, there is an explicit rule that anything that adds extra damage to something that deals ability damage (such as Sneak Attack) works, but it adds negative-energy HP damage, not more ability damage. Mark of the Enlightened Soul isn't exactly the same thing as sneak attack, but it's at least similar enough to give one pause.

[Anthrowhale]

I've decided to swap Desert Burial for Dweomer of Transference. DoT is superpowerful with a psionic ally since you can potentially just charge them up after each encounter making PP/day effectively PP/encounter.

W.r.t. Shadow Conjuration, I believe you do need War Spell to get it on list for use, but free use of War Spells (even 1/5th hit point ones) are quite potent---enough to plausibly justify the cost of that feat. To compensate for this I shifted Consumptive Field to the ECL20 slot where it is far more potent.

I believe this addresses all suggestions, but please do flag if you have more.


For comparison, there is an explicit rule that anything that adds extra damage to something that deals ability damage (such as Sneak Attack) works, but it adds negative-energy HP damage, not more ability damage. Mark of the Enlightened Soul isn't exactly the same thing as sneak attack, but it's at least similar enough to give one pause.

Perhaps yes, but the RAW seems clear here.

[RandomPeasant]

Perhaps yes, but the RAW seems clear here.

I would really like one actual rules citation for this position and not just "it says damage". "Dexterity damage" is demonstrably different from "bludgeoning damage" in a way that "fire damage" is not, and you really need some rules to close that gap.

But, honestly, even if we grant that it works the way you want, that does not make the spell top ten material. "shivering touch somewhat better" does not merit a top ten spot on its own, and for anyone but a Sorcerer, that's all it does. For a Sorcerer, you have to spend one of your incredibly scarce spells known to pick up a high level blasting spell and hope that throwing a 4th level slot, a 9th level slot, and an 8th level slot at your problem ends up better than just casting wail of the banshee. Oh and it's ludicrously easy to counter, because if your CR 20 encounter is the Tarrasque it doesn't even do anything.

assay spell resistance is generally going to be better at the "make offensive spell good" job. And call of stone is better at weird voltron multi-spell combos because that can get you reliable kills against a variety of stuff and doesn't even ask that you throw away 8th and 9th level spell slots to do it.

[ciopo]

I would really like one actual rules citation for this position and not just "it says damage". "Dexterity damage" is demonstrably different from "bludgeoning damage" in a way that "fire damage" is not, and you really need some rules to close that gap.
PHB page 134, ability damage is a sub-category of damage

[Anthrowhale]

PHB page 134, ability damage is a sub-category of damage
This appears valid.



But, honestly, even if we grant that it works the way you want, that does not make the spell top ten material. "shivering touch somewhat better" does not merit a top ten spot on its own, and for anyone but a Sorcerer, that's all it does.

There are multiple amplifiers you are not considering.

You have noted previously that less than total damage is a poor status condition. With ability damage that's less true (damage creates debuff), but still valid. Shivering Touch damages to dexterity 0 a small fraction of all creatures, but Shivering Touch+MotES does the same for about twice as many creatures. Once you can afford a lesser rod of maximize spell, the combo drops just about everything vulnerable to dexterity damage.
MotES is a swift action cast that lasts for 3 rounds. Hence you can use the spell for an encounter at high levels and it will deal more damage than multiple damage causing spells themselves. It's also persistable shifting from 1/encounter to 1/2 days casting causing far more damage than any single damage causing spell.
You can of course use it with Fireball, or Venomfire, or even Sanctum Wings of Flurry without expending an extra spell slot. And, yes, Sanctum spell also makes WoF eligible for the lesser rod of maximize spell. By ECL 9 when you can afford it, that's 81 damage Refl/2 + daze Refl neg to all enemies within 30'. In many situations the encounter is over.




For a Sorcerer, you have to spend one of your incredibly scarce spells known to pick up a high level blasting spell and hope that throwing a 4th level slot, a 9th level slot, and an 8th level slot at your problem ends up better than just casting wail of the banshee.
The exact text is:

...you can sacrifice one sorcerer spell slot... The word 'can' implies an option which need not be exercised.

[RandomPeasant]

PHB page 134, ability damage is a sub-category of damage

Which cites over to the DMG, which discusses ability damage as part of "Ability Score Loss". If you read things this way, the implication would seem to be that effects that boost damage ability to ability damage, but not the ordinarily more dangerous but otherwise interchangable ability drain. Which I suppose is potentially RAW, as RAW is not obligated to be sensical, but seems like an odd interpretation to me.


You have noted previously that less than total damage is a poor status condition. With ability damage that's less true (damage creates debuff), but still valid. Shivering Touch damages to dexterity 0 a small fraction of all creatures, but Shivering Touch+MotES does the same for about twice as many creatures. Once you can afford a lesser rod of maximize spell, the combo drops just about everything vulnerable to dexterity damage.

But we already have celerity on the list, and that doubles how much shivering touch does while also stacking with all your other boosters for it and applying to other spells. Sure, it costs an extra spell slot, but "it makes you more efficient with your 3rd level slots" is not exactly selling me on something being the best 4th level spell to have at 20th level.


MotES is a swift action cast that lasts for 3 rounds. Hence you can use the spell for an encounter at high levels and it will deal more damage than multiple damage causing spells themselves.

That's misleading because the spell doesn't do anything. It makes the other things you are doing a bit better, but even at +50% horrid wilting is worse than just casting a 9th level combat spell (or even a better 8th level one).


By ECL 9 when you can afford it, that's 81 damage Refl/2 + daze Refl neg to all enemies within 30'.

Well, all the Evil ones. Which is another big issue. People talk about how Illusion and Enchantment are bad because of spells that counter them all the time, what you are proposing is an effect that is countered by your DM having you fight Slaad cultists instead of Demon cultists.


The word 'can' implies an option which need not be exercised.

Sure but if you don't exercise the option you are limited to boosting the damage of spells at or below 3rd level and that's just not very good.

[Anthrowhale]

But we already have celerity on the list, and that doubles how much shivering touch does while also stacking with all your other boosters for it and applying to other spells. Sure, it costs an extra spell slot, but "it makes you more efficient with your 3rd level slots" is not exactly selling me on something being the best 4th level spell to have at 20th level.

I'm honestly not sure if any evidence would convince you that damage can be effective, and hence that damage boosters can be effective.

Nevertheless, let me mention that persistent MotES is quite doable at ECL 20, and there are at least a half-dozen distinct ways to get a caster level of 40. In that case you could Sanctum Wings of Flurry with a lesser rod of maximize spell for 360 damage Refl half + Daze Refl negates. That's attacking the weakest save to eliminate all actions for a round and dealing damage in the neighborhood of a knockout to multiple opponents. It's an encounter-ender using a single 4th level slot (+extended persistent MotES + lesser rod of maximize spell). 4th level spells which are key ingredients to ending 20th level encounters generally belong on the top-10 list.


That's misleading because the spell doesn't do anything.

If you are thinking of it that way, yes I can understand why MotES seems like it doesn't belong.

In modern warfare, logistics, maintenance, and repair don't "do" anything, and yet good armies devote massive resources to these activities. The way to reconcile this is to note that indirect action is action.


... an effect that is countered by your DM having you fight Slaad cultists instead of Demon cultists.

I guess I'm skeptical about "it does nothing because a DM will counter it". This might be true sometimes, but spells which make the DM completely change up the bad guys sounds like spells which should be on the top-10 list.


Sure but if you don't exercise the option you are limited to boosting the damage of spells at or below 3rd level and that's just not very good.
Most of the good damage spells are sanctum 4th or lower level anyways.

[RandomPeasant]

I'm honestly not sure if any evidence would convince you that damage can be effective, and hence that damage boosters can be effective.

Ideally I would like a citation that describes it as damage that is not citing to another page that describes it as something other than damage. Is your suggestion that Ability Score Loss writ large is a subcategory of damage?


Nevertheless, let me mention that persistent MotES is quite doable at ECL 20, and there are at least a half-dozen distinct ways to get a caster level of 40.

If you can get a caster level of 40 and you are fighting Evil creatures why are you casting any spell that is not named holy word?


4th level spells which are key ingredients to ending 20th level encounters generally belong on the top-10 list.

If you can get CL 40 you can get CL 60. None of the "boost your damage output" things are "key ingredients" in anything, because there are a lot of them and you can just use different ones if one happens not to be available. A "key ingredient" is something like venomfire, where there is no other spell in the entire game that provides a comparable efficiency in boosting damage output in the same situations.


If you are thinking of it that way, yes I can understand why MotES seems like it doesn't belong.

You cannot keep putting every individual piece of voltron on this list because you like voltron. If the spell is good because of other spells that are already on the list, the spells that are good are those ones. Contrast this to, for instance, celerity which is still good even if the other spells you are casting are mediocre because "get an extra standard action" is a powerful effect in a way that "empower some 3rd level spells" is not. Or, for that matter, venomfire and shivering touch, which would both belong on this list even if there were exactly zero things that enhanced their effects in the game.


I guess I'm skeptical about "it does nothing because a DM will counter it". This might be true sometimes, but spells which make the DM completely change up the bad guys sounds like spells which should be on the top-10 list.

It's not really a "complete change-up" to write "Neutral" on some character sheets. Forcing everyone to invest in true seeing is useful because A) that's a resource investment and B) you can theoretically dispel it. You can't dispel the bad guys not being Evil, and it doesn't cost them anything to not be Evil.

[Anthrowhale]

Ideally I would like a citation that describes it as damage that is not citing to another page that describes it as something other than damage.
I don't have any evidence beyond conventional english and ciopo's point about ability damage being listed as a subcategory of damage.


If you can get a caster level of 40 and you are fighting Evil creatures why are you casting any spell that is not named holy word?

There's a few reasons:

A 4th level spell is generally less of a resource cost than a 7th level spell when it will do.
Many high level creatures have many more HD than CR, making even elevated holy word a bit iffy.
Spell access may be an issue in some circumstances.



If you can get CL 40 you can get CL 60.

It's really a question of build investment here. A 4th level spell is a smaller build investment than 5 levels of a prestige class for circle magic, a 7th level spell (greater consumptive field), or even Theurgic Specialist.


If the spell is good because of other spells that are already on the list, the spells that are good are those ones.

Yeah, I just disagree here. Spells which significantly support the delivery of attack spells are high value spells.

[RandomPeasant]

I don't have any evidence beyond conventional english and ciopo's point about ability damage being listed as a subcategory of damage.

Except the place where it is listed in the context of damage is a pointer to another section of the rules which lists it as a form of Ability Score Loss. So is "Ability Score Loss" a subcategory of damage?


4th level spell is generally less of a resource cost than a 7th level spell when it will do.

Except the 7th level spell doesn't require anything but the spell slot (and the CL boosting, but both of them need that). You don't need Sanctum Spell, you don't need the mark, you don't need any items. You just cast holy word and then your enemies stop existing.


Many high level creatures have many more HD than CR, making even elevated holy word a bit iffy.

Of the CR 20 monsters in the MM, three (Tarrasque, Wyrm Black Dragon, Ancient Brass Dragon) have enough HD to survive a CL 40 holy word, and of those only the Tarrasque survives a CL 45 one. HD is sometimes higher than CL. But not by the margins you need to eat into CL 40.


Spell access may be an issue in some circumstances.

I am begging you to formalize some criteria for how this list works. How is "you can have a spell off a non-core Domain with a way to cast it from all your slots" reasonable, but "you can have a core spell at the level it appears on core lists" not?


It's really a question of build investment here. A 4th level spell is a smaller build investment than 5 levels of a prestige class for circle magic, a 7th level spell (greater consumptive field), or even Theurgic Specialist.

Its also a question of general utility. Having a spell that boosts your 3rd level damaging spells is useful for the exact set of combos you are describing. Having a giant caster level is good for a huge range of stuff. holy word clears out crowds, call of stone kills single targets with iterative probability, and just having the CL makes you de facto immune to dispelling.


Yeah, I just disagree here. Spells which significantly support the delivery of attack spells are high value spells.

+50% is not "significant" when you have like a half-dozen different sources of it. The thing the mailman is is a combination of individually-insignificant effects that you put in a big pile. I mean, look at what you are actually saying. Your plan with wings of flurry is A) mark of the enlightened soul + B) Sanctum Spell + C) caster level boosts + D) a lesser metamagic rod. Compare this to the plan with celerity, which is "casting two spells is awesome". There is a huge qualitative difference between the standards you are applying to blasting spells and the standards you are applying to everything else, and I do not understand how you don't see it.

[ciopo]

Except the place where it is listed in the context of damage is a pointer to another section of the rules which lists it as a form of Ability Score Loss. So is "Ability Score Loss" a subcategory of damage?


I was about to say no, but on reread, both damage and drain are multiplied on a crit, which to me is the "significance" that'd make me consider them to be.. "damage", in relation to being affected by stuff that affect damage, such as being multiplied on valorous charge, or when using decisive strike, or (etcetera).

So... kinda? that which requires an attack roll, for sure ( caveat specific exceptions etcetera etcetera)

[Anthrowhale]

Its also a question of general utility. Having a spell that boosts your 3rd level damaging spells is useful for the exact set of combos you are describing. Having a giant caster level is good for a huge range of stuff. holy word clears out crowds, call of stone kills single targets with iterative probability, and just having the CL makes you de facto immune to dispelling.

I agree here, but the returns to caster level going from 40 to 60 (your suggestion) diminish and the build costs increase making MotES seem like a cheaper alternative.



Your plan with wings of flurry is A) mark of the enlightened soul + B) Sanctum Spell + C) caster level boosts + D) a lesser metamagic rod. Compare this to the plan with celerity, which is "casting two spells is awesome". There is a huge qualitative difference between the standards you are applying to blasting spells and the standards you are applying to everything else, and I do not understand how you don't see it.
Celerity actually isn't there because it gives you an extra action. That's actually pretty easy---Enhance Wildshape + a feat can do it every round for hours, and the belt of battle is nominally affordable at ECL8. Celerity is instead there because it's a nova kernel---at high levels it can be chained to give you bounded-by-slots actions. This of course does require some extra support.

W.r.t. the "costs", C is basically free since ever caster wants it anyways. B is a real cost, but Sanctum Spell is a moderately handy tool amortizable over other applications. D is negligible cost at high levels.

[Chronos]

Put it this way: Let's say you were planning on using your Shivering Enlightened Touch trick in a game, but the DM banned one of your sources. If the DM bans Mark of the Enlightened Soul, you've still got a really good trick in Shivering Touch. If the DM bans Shivering Touch, then you've got... what? Yes, the combo is better than either piece individually, but the combo is mostly just "Shivering Touch, plus some other stuff to make it better". That means that Shivering Touch belongs on these lists, but it doesn't mean that the other stuff does.

[Anthrowhale]

If the DM bans Shivering Touch, then you've got... what?

At least Venomfire and Wings of Flurry.

I certainly agree that damaging spells are required for MotES to be useful, but there are several, individual castings can apply to several (or many if you persist), and the threshold nature of damage effects rewards a damage amplifier beyond the numeric effect.

With that said, I'm not close-minded. If there are alternatives which you believe are more valuable at ECL20, please speak up.

[Fero]

At least Venomfire and Wings of Flurry.

I certainly agree that damaging spells are required for MotES to be useful, but there are several, individual castings can apply to several (or many if you persist), and the threshold nature of damage effects rewards a damage amplifier beyond the numeric effect.

With that said, I'm not close-minded. If there are alternatives which you believe are more valuable at ECL20, please speak up.

I feel that MotES will often result in overkill. The spells listed will almost always be lethal when augmented. However, I would seldom use MotES as the first line augment. For example, empowered spell shards are cheap and achieve the same effect. MotES allows some extra versatility, but again, that seams more theoretically useful than actually useful.

[Anthrowhale]

I feel that MotES will often result in overkill. The spells listed will almost always be lethal when augmented. However, I would seldom use MotES as the first line augment. For example, empowered spell shards are cheap and achieve the same effect. MotES allows some extra versatility, but again, that seams more theoretically useful than actually useful.

I'll say again that if you think there are good alternatives at ECL20, that's quite worth considering. My view here is that hitpoints do grow super-linearly, so it's good to have an enhancer to keep up.

W.r.t. Empowered Spellshard, there are several caveats that come to mind:

Specific to a single spell.
Not persistable.
Not as cumulative with maximize spell. For d6 based spells, maximize is damage +71%, MotES+maximize is +157%, and Empower+maximize is +121%.
Limited to L3- spells. Sanctum Wings of Flurry certainly isn't purchasable.

The only really significant advantage I see compared to a lesser rod of empower spell (9k instead of 6k) is that you can use a rod of maximize spell and an empower spellshard at the same time, but not two rods.

[RandomPeasant]

I agree here, but the returns to caster level going from 40 to 60 (your suggestion) diminish and the build costs increase making MotES seem like a cheaper alternative.

The cost for going from 40 to 60 is that instead of having Circle Magic you have Circle Magic and consumptive field. This is the same as MotES, except it applies to other stuff as well. Also the only reason you need to go to 60 in the first place is if you refuse to just holy word people.


Celerity actually isn't there because it gives you an extra action.

What are you talking about. "It gives you an extra action" is precisely why celerity is good. Yes, there are other things that can do that too, that doesn't make celerity not good. Just look at the baseline. The baseline with celerity as a 20th level character is that you cast two 9th level spells in a round. That's good even if they are mediocre 9th level spells like meteor swarm. The baseline with mark of the enlightened soul is that you cast a fireball and it deals an extra 5d6 damage and you can repeat that for credit twice.


That means that Shivering Touch belongs on these lists, but it doesn't mean that the other stuff does.

This is exactly it. The main show is shivering touch, not the particular thing you've found to make it a little better.


At least Venomfire and Wings of Flurry.

The only class that natively gets mark of the enlightened soul + venomfire is Cleric, which is maybe the worst class in the game at making use of that particular combo. Doing anything with wings of flurry requires that you sink a feat into Sanctum Spell. But the broader question is what MotES does without spells that are good. Because all the other spells stand on their own. If lesser planar ally is the only spell you pick from this list, you still get a 6 HD outsider. enhance wildshape is a fine spell even if you don't pick up Aberration Wild Shape. Boosting your CL with consumptive field does something for almost any spell in the game. MotES needs you to be running around casting 3rd level blasting spells, which is a bad strategy at 20th level unless you are investing heavily into it, and assuming heavy investment makes the list less useful for everyone else.


With that said, I'm not close-minded. If there are alternatives which you believe are more valuable at ECL20, please speak up.

Any of assay spell resistance (genuinely, this is better, it's good with your top-line offensive spells and not weird combos), call of stone (at CL 40, Extend means an enemy has to make 37 saves or die, which is about a 15% chance of losing even if they only fail on 1s), or bloodfreeze arrow (every available 4th level slot in downtime becomes a permanent stackable rider on your archer's attacks). Or just put polymorph on the ECL 20 list too, it's not like it's a bad buff then.


I feel that MotES will often result in overkill. The spells listed will almost always be lethal when augmented. However, I would seldom use MotES as the first line augment. For example, empowered spell shards are cheap and achieve the same effect. MotES allows some extra versatility, but again, that seams more theoretically useful than actually useful.

This is true as well. There are a lot of pieces you could have to make shivering touch better. MotES is not a particularly exceptional one. As noted, in the examples Anthro gives, he can't even confine himself to evaluating just MotES with wings of flurry. There's CL boosters and Sanctum Spell and magic items in there too.


I'll say again that if you think there are good alternatives at ECL20, that's quite worth considering. My view here is that hitpoints do grow super-linearly, so it's good to have an enhancer to keep up.

You've got a solid premise there, but a faulty conclusion. Hitpoints growing super-linearly means it's better to target something else, not that we should put every single damage enhancer on this list.

[Anthrowhale]

The cost for going from 40 to 60 is that instead of having Circle Magic you have Circle Magic and consumptive field.
That's a possibility, although fairly difficult given the circle prereqs. A more straightforward scenario is that you've used Consumptive Field and Greater Consumptive Field to reach caster level 40, and then caster level 60 is a fair bit more difficult.


The baseline with mark of the enlightened soul is that you cast a fireball and it deals an extra 5d6 damage and you can repeat that for credit twice.

Think of it as half an extra action for each of 3 rounds (or possibly all day if you persist).


assay spell resistance

This seems to solve a non-problem if you are exercising Consumptive Field.


call of stone

It's a powerful but slow-acting spell. Sort of the level 4 version of power word:pain, which we didn't take then because it denies enemy actions on a to-slow timeline. Denying enemy actions now is much more useful. In some applications this would be an alternative to Dimensional Anchor, I guess? But there remains significant applications where they do not substitute.


bloodfreeze arrow

This is a good spell. It's weaker than Desert Burial in effect since there's a new save each turn. The odds of it sticking and the scope of creatures are worse since it targets Fort instead of Refl. However the ability to use downtime casting and spam many arrows/round at high levels seems potent, and you only really need a round of paralysis for a coup de grace. It's somewhat painful to rely on non-touch attacks for delivery, but on the other hand the combo with telekinesis is quite powerful if you can manage a good attack bonus. I'll think about this.



You've got a solid premise there, but a faulty conclusion. Hitpoints growing super-linearly means it's better to target something else, not that we should put every single damage enhancer on this list.
Oh, this is quite far from "every single damage enhancer".

Both giving up on damage and adding in enhancers to make it happen seem like a reasonable response.

[Chronos]

It's somewhat painful to rely on non-touch attacks for delivery, but on the other hand the combo with telekinesis is quite powerful if you can manage a good attack bonus.
You don't need to make the attacks yourself. You can just give the arrows to a fighter ally, who probably has a good enough attack bonus to hit a few times per round even with normal attacks.

[Anthrowhale]

You don't need to make the attacks yourself. You can just give the arrows to a fighter ally, who probably has a good enough attack bonus to hit a few times per round even with normal attacks.

Yep. Another element here is that you could potentially use cooperative spell offline to effectively make the save happen 5% of the time.

The effect is good, but it's making me wonder if we it should also be considered for ECL8. And, in that case, what should be dropped?

[Reprimand]

No mention of the humble arcane eye? Why risk anyone scoutting when unlimited magical probing is available?

[RandomPeasant]

Think of it as half an extra action for each of 3 rounds (or possibly all day if you persist).

But that's not what it is. It's not an "extra action" at all, in that it only ever allows you to do one thing. You cannot, for instance, lob a full-strength fireball at one group of enemies and a half-strength one at another. More than that, while it can theoretically be active all day, that's hugely misleading because it doesn't do anything at all unless you have a 3rd-or-lower slot to use on a blasting spell. Persistomancy is good because it lets you do things without spending additional spell slots. MotES cannot do that, which makes it at best an awkward fit with Persistent Spell.


This seems to solve a non-problem if you are exercising Consumptive Field.

You'll note the existence of classes (such as "Wizard") which can natively learn assay spell resistance but not consumptive field. More than that, consumptive field requires external support (namely: some way to make it Persistent) to be useful throughout the adventuring day. Not every character will have that, but everyone gets swift actions.


It's a powerful but slow-acting spell. Sort of the level 4 version of power word:pain, which we didn't take then because it denies enemy actions on a to-slow timeline.

power word pain is bad because as a 1st level character you don't have good options for disengaging. As a 20th level character, a simulacrum of you is high enough level to cast teleport.


Both giving up on damage and adding in enhancers to make it happen seem like a reasonable response.

Only the former is a good for for a list of "best spells".


You don't need to make the attacks yourself. You can just give the arrows to a fighter ally, who probably has a good enough attack bonus to hit a few times per round even with normal attacks.

Also it's not limited to one application per arrow. You can, should you have the downtime slots to make it happen, stack it multiple times on the same arrow in the same way that multiple castings of explosive runes deal stacking damage.


The effect is good, but it's making me wonder if we it should also be considered for ECL8. And, in that case, what should be dropped?

The problem with that, as I noted when mentioning it earlier, is that it only appears on the Ranger list (and some PrC lists), so including it (frankly at all, but especially at ECL 8) raises questions about why you did not include e.g. animate dead at 2nd or fabricate at 3rd.

[Fero]

No mention of the humble arcane eye? Why risk anyone scoutting when unlimited magical probing is available?

Oh yeah, Arcane Eye is epic.

[Anthrowhale]

Edit: Dropped MotES for Bloodfreeze Arrow.


No mention of the humble arcane eye? Why risk anyone scoutting when unlimited magical probing is available?
I'm happy to consider, but what should be dropped?


But that's not what it is. It's not an "extra action" at all, in that it only ever allows you to do one thing. You cannot, for instance, lob a full-strength fireball at one group of enemies and a half-strength one at another. More than that, while it can theoretically be active all day, that's hugely misleading because it doesn't do anything at all unless you have a 3rd-or-lower slot to use on a blasting spell. Persistomancy is good because it lets you do things without spending additional spell slots. MotES cannot do that, which makes it at best an awkward fit with Persistent Spell.

You are good at seeing the disadvantages. For example, a consequence of MotES not being a true half action is that the pseudo-half-action has no slot cost, better than a half action would normally allow.


(namely: some way to make it Persistent) to be useful throughout the adventuring day.

Not actually correct if you use the duration to cast long-lasting buffs.


The problem with that, as I noted when mentioning it earlier, is that it only appears on the Ranger list (and some PrC lists), so including it (frankly at all, but especially at ECL 8) ...
That's convincing.

[RandomPeasant]

You are good at seeing the disadvantages. For example, a consequence of MotES not being a true half action is that the pseudo-half-action has no slot cost, better than a half action would normally allow.

If you are able to make spells Persistent, you should have slot-free actions that are reasonable uses of your time. A Druid making a venomfire'd-up full attack in Grell form isn't spending any spell slots when they do so.


Not actually correct if you use the duration to cast long-lasting buffs.

I am very skeptical of the value of consumptive field used in this way, particularly at ECL 20. greater magic weapon and the like are CL-capped with no boosters. Hours/level spells will last long enough for you to refresh spells with them up, and if you're doing that Extend is almost always better. It's probably at its best with 10 minutes/level durations, as it gets you nearly two extra hours. But even that is on top of a base duration of over three, so I'm skeptical you see a huge impact. Any shorter duration and you're losing more time from having to cast at the start of the day than you gain from extra CL. Resistance against dispelling is nice, but at 20th level you can reasonably expect to encounter disjunction or antimagic field, neither of which cares for a boosted CL.

[Anthrowhale]

With regards to arcane eye,
(a) I believe the weakest ECL8 spell at present is Shadow Conjuration since it requires a feat (War Magic Study) to really leverage. (The feat's function is to put the spells on list, not casting war spells natively.) Note here that Anyspell already provides access to L2- wizard spells. The "bury in hippogriffs/Dire Badgers" effect is potent at ECL8 but already degrading due to the low attack bonus of summons.
(b) Any thoughts about whether it's worthwhile at ECL20? Eye of Power is a potent replacement.


If you are able to make spells Persistent, you should have slot-free actions that are reasonable uses of your time. A Druid making a venomfire'd-up full attack in Grell form isn't spending any spell slots when they do so.

When you have 50 spells/day, begrudging the use of 1/encounter seems nigh pointless to me.

[Anthrowhale]

Hearing no complaints, I swapped in Arcane Eye for Shadow Conjuration.

[Anthrowhale]

We missed an interesting spell here: Lesser Spirit Binding. It's Binding rather than Ally, so you choose rather than DM chooses, and there's quite a range of SLAs.

Lesser Spirit Binding itself was apparently published as going up to 8 HD, downgraded to 6HD in Dragon #318 (April 2004), then upgraded to 8HD again in Complete Arcane (November 2004). The Shaman handbook has a summary of options (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?248262-Shaman-Handbook-Oriental-Adventures&p=13489944#post13489944).

At a glance:
Pixie (1HD): 1/day Permanent Image, Entangle, Dispel Magic, caster level 8
Hkum Yeng Nat (4HD): At-will: Ethereal Jaunt (self-only), Invisibility, Passwall, Dispel Magic, Elemental Burst, Fireball. 1/day, Remove Curse, caster level 5.
Earth Whisper (4HD): At-will: Stone Shape 3/day Wall of Stone. caster level 10
Nymph (6HD): L7 Druid casting.
Banelar Naga (7HD): L6 Wizard and Cleric casting castable as a free action 1/round.
Lu Nat (8HD): At-will: Ethereal Jaunt (self-only), Invisibility, Passwall, Shield of Faith 3/day Fire Shuriken, Stinking Cloud 1/day Water to Poison, caster level 10
Large Nature Spirit(8HD): 5/day Shapechange (!), 1/day Any associated elemental wu jen spell.

[Chronos]

Yeah, the Shadow ____ spells are tempting for their versatility, but absent other shenanigans, you can get a big chunk of Shadow Conjuration directly from Summon Monster IV. There are still Conjuration (Creation) spells you're missing out on, as well as a few odd summons that aren't Summon Monster, but on the other hand, Shadow Conjuration is limited to level 3, and there's still the quasi-real factor. It's a good spell, but I'm not hearbroken about dropping it.

[Anthrowhale]

I swapped in Lesser Spirit Binding for Dominate Person. out of combat Dominate Person isn't to different from Charm Person + a good diplomacy check. In combat, Suggestion is a decent alternative. Altogether, it seemed the weakest effect I could find to evict.

Level 4 seems to be an excellent minion access level.

[Anthrowhale]

Another spell worth considering: Mindworms from Dragon 343, page 78. This requires a feat (Wormbound) to use. The effect though is 1d6 wisdom damage Will half+draining 3 levels of spells Will negates. If you drain 3 spells (apparently not 3 spell levels? So they must be 3 1st level spells) then you can apply any metamagic feat you know to a spell you cast within the next hour.

This is the cheapest free metamagic application system I'm aware of since it has only a 1 feat tax. It's limited to a single metamagic feat, but that of course is amazing in the context of persistent spell for example.

[Anthrowhale]

FYI, I inserted Mindworms at 8&20, downgrading Arcane Eye (minions can scout instead) and Friendly Fire (Touch AC could be optimized instead). The able to apply persistent spell for a 4th level spell slot is pretty amazing. Even simply applying Twin Spell is very good. A Pearl of Power L4 is only 16k gp.

[remetagross]

I suppose Bard-only spells do not have a place in this kind of thread, right? Unless we consider Wyrm Wizard tricks, etc.

Else, Fugue is a devastating 4th-level Bard spell. It's Will negate and SR: yes, that's the bad news. Else, it's a 30ft-radius spread at medium range, wide enough of an area to lock in an entire encounter. And then, the effects are dependant on a Perform check, going up to "affected creature attacks nearest target". So at high levels that's what you'll get for everyone. And it lasts up to 1 round/level. However, the very best part is that it has no annoying tag. It's sonic, but that's rarely an issue. It's not mind-affecting, so it works on plants, constructs, undead...which is great.

[Anthrowhale]

I suppose Bard-only spells do not have a place in this kind of thread, right? Unless we consider Wyrm Wizard tricks, etc.

Else, Fugue is a devastating 4th-level Bard spell. It's Will negate and SR: yes, that's the bad news. else, it's a 30ft-radius spread at medium range, wide enough of an area to lock in an entire encounter. And then, the effects are dependant on a Perform check, going up to "affected creature attacks nearest target". So at high levels that's what you'll get for everyone. And it lasts up to 1 round/level. However, the very best part is that it has no annoying tag. It's sonic, but that's rarely an issue. It's not mind-affecting, so it works on plants, constructs, undead...which is great.

Bard spells are definitely allowed and Fugue is pretty amazing. The key question is: what to drop? It's an ECL20 spell for sure given the many skill checks and DC20 payout.

[remetagross]

I'd say it beats Bloodfreeze arrow. Bloodfreeze arrow is a save vs paralysis, an effect against which a lot of creatures are immune, plus it allows a new save against the effect every turn. In addition, if you want to lock down an entire encounter, you'll need both a pretty high stack of pre-enchanted arrows and a buddy with a high number of attacks per round. Plus, the arrow actually has to hit, and that's not a touch attack. Cover, miss chances, etc. factor in the effectiveness of the spell.

Fugue works on pretty much everything, no miss chance, no -4 for a ranged attack to hit in melee, no AC to beat, and there's no new save each turn. Besides, even if a creature succeeds on its save, apart from the tiny -2 it takes, if its neighbour has failed and starts to attack it, it effectively takes damage from the spell anyway and is, in general, hindered in its ability to contribute to the encounter.

[Anthrowhale]

Swapped Dimensional Anchor for Bladesong.


I'd say it beats Bloodfreeze arrow. Bloodfreeze arrow is a save vs paralysis, an effect against which a lot of creatures are immune, plus it allows a new save against the effect every turn. In addition, if you want to lock down an entire encounter, you'll need both a pretty high stack of pre-enchanted arrows and a buddy with a high number of attacks per round. Plus, the arrow actually has to hit, and that's not a touch attack. Cover, miss chances, etc. factor in the effectiveness of the spell.

Fugue works on pretty much everything, no miss chance, no -4 for a ranged attack to hit in melee, no AC to beat, and there's no new save each turn. Besides, even if a creature succeeds on its save, apart from the tiny -2 it takes, if its neighbour has failed and starts to attack it, it effectively takes damage from the spell anyway and is, in general, hindered in its ability to contribute to the encounter.

I think the right choice is actually Dimensional Anchor. That's typically not really needed until higher levels where other options can be used, and we have access to Bladesong anyways in a pinch. This leaves us with 3 multitarget save-or-lose attack spells:
Fort: Bloodfreeze Arrow
Refl: Wings of Flurry
Will: Fugue

[remetagross]

I assume you meant Fugue.

Yay, i contributed! Also, good catch on the party-friendly aspect of the spell. Did you mean that you could choose to inflict the relatively harmless 3d6 nonlethal damage? Or that you could decide to somehow fail the Perform check altogether?

[Anthrowhale]

I assume you meant Fugue.
Yeah sorry, I meant 'choice to swap down'.


Yay, i contributed! Also, good catch on the party-friendly aspect of the spell. Did you mean that you could choose to inflict the relatively harmless 3d6 nonlethal damage? Or that you could decide to somehow fail the Perform check altogether?
Yes, and thanks for the help.

W.r.t. how you soften for party members, I expect many tables allow you to just flub a skill check. I'm not sure if there are rules for that, but it makes logical sense. You could always just choose the 3d6 nonlethal as suggested.