A brainstorming about stealth and sneaking

[Old Harry MTX]

The work so far: The Glossary (https://docs.google.com/document/d/15qDuefrWn9RU8t_xtrQQJEZrgK5aE4m9G0wnXAnQwVQ/edit?usp=sharing)


== Original Post ==

Hello lads
I really like stealth characters and video games, but I'm not happy with how it is implemented in TTRPGs. For this reason I'd like your help brainstorming how (if possible) to implement a fun way to sneak behind enemy lines, stunning foes along the way, and hiding them in trash bins. These are the premises, plus some ideas that I had but that are made to be questioned:

No target system. The result can be a class, a subclass, a prestige class, a system of additional or alternative rules, or an entire original system (Ninjas & Necromancers...).
Stealth play must be choral. Too many times it happened that during a session the action was monopolized by one, maximum two players able to move silently, while the rest of the team remained hidden on the sidelines. I'd like to find a way to actively involve everyone all the time, maybe via combined actions, diversions, etc...
A valid alternative to combat. The stealth approach should offer the same possibilities, fun, degree of challenge, and variety of gameplay as normal combat.
Silent and lethal. It should be possible to stun or kill almost anyone caught unawares. An idea I had is to introduce Alert Points, alongside the Hit Points, and calculated in a similar way (E.G. 1dX + its Wisdom modifier per creature level). Stealth Actions reduce Alert Points as attacks and spells do to Hit Points during combat, and when a creature goes to zero it can be eliminated with a single blow.
How to sneak. A Stealth Action is any action that reduces a creature's number of Alert Points: Lure it away from allies, flank it, charm it, blind it, deafen it, narcotize it, hide self, disguise self, create diversions, use puppets or illusions, reach an elevated position... these actions should be many and expanded by ad hoc features, spells and maneuvers. As with attacks and spells, they should have attack rolls or saving throws, and additional rolls + any modifiers to determine how much "damage" has been done to Alert Points.
Huh? Who's there? I think that every stage should have some kind of Level of Alarm, which rises every time someone fails a Stealth Action, and that once reached a certain value the party is discovered. I imagine it similar to the saving throws against death featured in D&D 5e.
Patterns, paths and awareness. One of the biggest problems is figuring out how to handle enemy behavior. In a stealth video game you study the paths and interactions between enemies, wait for the right moment to strike, drag the body away, disarm the alarm system hoping to succeed before being seen, and finally move on to the next enemy. In a TTRPG it would be very difficult to replicate the adrenaline-pumping feeling of sneaking up behind an enemy through an air duct without knowing if he'll hear you coming, or if one of his allies will jump around a corner before you've managed to hide his body. I would like to avoid reducing everything to a series of dice rolls resulting in success or failure. Furthermore, enemies must act as if they are oblivious to what is going on, and react to any anomalies accordingly. An idea that came to me is to determine the actions of the enemies through cards that the DM plays face down at the beginning of the round, and which are discovered as the infiltration continues, determining the behavior of the enemies in their turns. But it's just an idea, this is the most problematic part.

I think that's all, do you have any opinion? Have you ever tried to develop something similar? Do you know any games, even board games, with similar mechanics?

Thankyou in advance for your time and help!

[NichG]

A system I've used and liked is that your stealth abilities generate a certain number of 'pips' for a given scene. This system had skills take values from 0 to 7, and characters got 1+Stealth pips, plus expanded mechanics for each point of the skill.

Anyhow, as long as you have pips left, you have not been spotted. Furthermore, the system is deterministic but not complete information - if you know where the guards are and how good they are, you can calculate exactly how many pips it would cost to sneak past.

- Crossing the view of an alert character or group of alert characters with partial cover of some form costs 1 pip base. Crossing a totally exposed area costs 2 pips base.

- Manipulating something that is being watched also costs a pip (opening a closed door, stealing an object being monitored), or two if monitored by a high Perception guard.

- Attacking or interacting with someone without breaking Stealth costs 3 pips if the attack doesn't drop all witnesses.

- At Stealth 3+ you can pay double cost but protect a group of characters up to your Stealth score from being seen when crossing a view.

- Perception increases the pip costs for enemies to stealth through areas you're monitoring by +1 per 2 ranks of Perception.

- Disguise is a separate skill that generates extra 'disguise pips' which can be spent on interacting openly with people but which weaken the disguise the more its pressed.

Factors like darkness, cover, distractions, etc can prevent a pip cost (with different levels of Perception stripping away those factors).

I was broadly happy with the this way of dealing with stealth. It made for heist-like gameplay - we will need to get the lockpicker past the guards, but we can't afford to pay to cover him - distraction at that point?. There were various 'waza' associated with Stealth and Perception above and beyond this, things like 'if you do something whose pip costs turns out to be different than you thought, you can spend a resource to take back the action' or '

[MrStabby]

Hello lads
I really like stealth characters and video games, but I'm not happy with how it is implemented in TTRPGs. For this reason I'd like your help brainstorming how (if possible) to implement a fun way to sneak behind enemy lines, stunning foes along the way, and hiding them in trash bins. These are the premises, plus some ideas that I had but that are made to be questioned:

No target system. The result can be a class, a subclass, a prestige class, a system of additional or alternative rules, or an entire original system (Ninjas & Necromancers...).
Stealth play must be choral. Too many times it happened that during a session the action was monopolized by one, maximum two players able to move silently, while the rest of the team remained hidden on the sidelines. I'd like to find a way to actively involve everyone all the time, maybe via combined actions, diversions, etc...
A valid alternative to combat. The stealth approach should offer the same possibilities, fun, degree of challenge, and variety of gameplay as normal combat.
Silent and lethal. It should be possible to stun or kill almost anyone caught unawares. An idea I had is to introduce Alert Points, alongside the Hit Points, and calculated in a similar way (E.G. 1dX + its Wisdom modifier per creature level). Stealth Actions reduce Alert Points as attacks and spells do to Hit Points during combat, and when a creature goes to zero it can be eliminated with a single blow.
How to sneak. A Stealth Action is any action that reduces a creature's number of Alert Points: Lure it away from allies, flank it, charm it, blind it, deafen it, narcotize it, hide self, disguise self, create diversions, use puppets or illusions, reach an elevated position... these actions should be many and expanded by ad hoc features, spells and maneuvers. As with attacks and spells, they should have attack rolls or saving throws, and additional rolls + any modifiers to determine how much "damage" has been done to Alert Points.
Huh? Who's there? I think that every stage should have some kind of Level of Alarm, which rises every time someone fails a Stealth Action, and that once reached a certain value the party is discovered. I imagine it similar to the saving throws against death featured in D&D 5e.
Patterns, paths and awareness. One of the biggest problems is figuring out how to handle enemy behavior. In a stealth video game you study the paths and interactions between enemies, wait for the right moment to strike, drag the body away, disarm the alarm system hoping to succeed before being seen, and finally move on to the next enemy. In a TTRPG it would be very difficult to replicate the adrenaline-pumping feeling of sneaking up behind an enemy through an air duct without knowing if he'll hear you coming, or if one of his allies will jump around a corner before you've managed to hide his body. I would like to avoid reducing everything to a series of dice rolls resulting in success or failure. Furthermore, enemies must act as if they are oblivious to what is going on, and react to any anomalies accordingly. An idea that came to me is to determine the actions of the enemies through cards that the DM plays face down at the beginning of the round, and which are discovered as the infiltration continues, determining the behavior of the enemies in their turns. But it's just an idea, this is the most problematic part.

I think that's all, do you have any opinion? Have you ever tried to develop something similar? Do you know any games, even board games, with similar mechanics?

Thankyou in advance for your time and help!


I think you have nailed the big ones.

One other question, or one you kind of asked, is about the alternative to combat. Do you want to support non-stealth characters? Do you want it to be a choice, or a theme for the game?
Managing the power level so people can but don't feel compelled to use stealth could be important. Fun and rich is good, but you might also want to support other playstyles (really a question - absolutely no probalem with making a game about ninja-ing about, but clarity of purpose is good.

The "Silent and Lethal" bit is a little problematic for me though. If you enable stealth to support solo-ing enemies then whoever goes first can functionally end an encounter alone. Its like spellcasting in D&D sometimes, and taking away other players opportunity/agency isn't great.

Your getting everyone involved is a good obkective, but it must be more than just "involved" it must also reflect what they want and how they want to be involved. If I am an illusionist, specialised in lights and trickery then being a diversion is exactly what I chose my character to do. If, on the other hand, I have a plate mail cad fighter dsigned for smashing th faces of monsters, I signed up to kill high profile targets not to just be the diversion.

Honestly, I think you have some great ideas, but I think it will be more cohesive and generally better if you can get your players to all buy into the system and they are all stealthing about. Backing up a strong system with class options for combinations of things to do whilst hidden and undetected etc..

[Old Harry MTX]

Thankyou for your answers!

Firs of all, i've found this list of stealth board games (https://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/40063/stealth-games), i will try to watch some video to see if there are interesting ideas.


A system I've used and liked is that your stealth abilities generate a certain number of 'pips' for a given scene. This system had skills take values from 0 to 7, and characters got 1+Stealth pips, plus expanded mechanics for each point of the skill.

Anyhow, as long as you have pips left, you have not been spotted. Furthermore, the system is deterministic but not complete information - if you know where the guards are and how good they are, you can calculate exactly how many pips it would cost to sneak past.

...

I was broadly happy with the this way of dealing with stealth. It made for heist-like gameplay - we will need to get the lockpicker past the guards, but we can't afford to pay to cover him - distraction at that point?. There were various 'waza' associated with Stealth and Perception above and beyond this, things like 'if you do something whose pip costs turns out to be different than you thought, you can spend a resource to take back the action' or '

This solution blends my Alert Points and Level of Alarm in a single mechanic. I don't know if it's deep enough to simulate what I want but it sure is interesting. Also, I like how you handle moving with different levels of coverage. What do you do with guard's paths and sights? Do they stand still or do they move? Have a cone of sight to see?


I think you have nailed the big ones.

One other question, or one you kind of asked, is about the alternative to combat. Do you want to support non-stealth characters? Do you want it to be a choice, or a theme for the game?
Managing the power level so people can but don't feel compelled to use stealth could be important. Fun and rich is good, but you might also want to support other playstyles (really a question - absolutely no probalem with making a game about ninja-ing about, but clarity of purpose is good.

The reason I would like to brainstorm this without a particular system as a target is because I believe I am able to adapt any ideas to any situation:

Original System. A system focused exclusively on stealth could be interesting, even if it is a niche one.
Additional or Alternative ruleset (for D&D 5e, ideally). If any character can have his role during a stealth infiltration (in the same way anyone have his role during a normal combat), the problem would not be "what the chain mail guy can do?", but "what to give to the guy in light armor now that he is no longer the only one who can do stealth?"
Class or subclass. This should still be fine as long as the character can share their infiltration features with the other characters via combined actions.

Anyway, Additional or Alternative ruleset would probably be my favourite route.


The "Silent and Lethal" bit is a little problematic for me though. If you enable stealth to support solo-ing enemies then whoever goes first can functionally end an encounter alone. Its like spellcasting in D&D sometimes, and taking away other players opportunity/agency isn't great.

That's why I imagined "Infiltration Operations" divided into turns and rounds like fights, to impose an action economy, and I thought of "Alert Points" so that break down an enemy requires the intervention of more than one character. Here's how I imagine a possible situation:


Char1 uses Stealth Step (?) to silently move in position to make an ambush. He moves behind half cover so Guard1 has disadvantage on his saving throw to notice (enemies have a cone of sight), but still succeeds so he suffers only half XdY reduction of his Alert Points. Also, Char1 fails the saving throw in order not to raise the Alarm Level, that became 1.
Char2 uses Luring Noise (??) to lure Guard1 into position. He fails the saving throw, suffers full XdY reduction in Alert Points and uses his reaction to move to check, as written in the description of Lurin Noise. Enemy reactions are a resource more for the party than the guards.
Char3 casts a Narcotic Dart (???) to reduce to 0 Guard1's Alert Points.
The DM drows a card from the pile for any Guard. Cards could have different outcome depending on the Alarm Level, or there could be different piles for each Alarm Level. Something happens...
End of Round
If is still possible after the card's effect, Char1 makes a Finishing Blow (????).



Your getting everyone involved is a good obkective, but it must be more than just "involved" it must also reflect what they want and how they want to be involved. If I am an illusionist, specialised in lights and trickery then being a diversion is exactly what I chose my character to do. If, on the other hand, I have a plate mail cad fighter dsigned for smashing th faces of monsters, I signed up to kill high profile targets not to just be the diversion.

Totally agree, the idea is to give to anyone a "stealth role", a sort of stealth versione of the classic warrior, caster, healer, support.


Honestly, I think you have some great ideas, but I think it will be more cohesive and generally better if you can get your players to all buy into the system and they are all stealthing about. Backing up a strong system with class options for combinations of things to do whilst hidden and undetected etc..

You are probably right, but right now i'm more focused on writing down and discuss more ideas as possible.

[NichG]

This solution blends my Alert Points and Level of Alarm in a single mechanic. I don't know if it's deep enough to simulate what I want but it sure is interesting. Also, I like how you handle moving with different levels of coverage. What do you do with guard's paths and sights? Do they stand still or do they move? Have a cone of sight to see?


If it's an improvised situation (players decide to go stealth into an enemy camp or whatever on the fly) then there will generally be a few chokepoints with stationary guards that can be spotted from a distance, and there may or may not be roving patrols which could be detected with some scouting but which I won't automatically tell the party about; but I'll keep it as abstract as e.g. 'I wait for a gap in the patrols' if they do scout out the patrols, versus 'as you're sneaking, suddenly patrol!' if they don't scout them out. I won't resolve line of sight too carefully here, just theater of mind sorts of 'I hide behind a crate' things.

If it's something more planned in advance, I'll put everyone on a battle map on Roll20 and do round by round decisions for the enemies, and basically treat it as if I were running a combat. Roll20 lets me make obstacles that block line of sight or lighting, so I can drop a light source on a given guard to show what they can/can't see. Generally speaking I'll let players see those zones (I could gate it behind a given level of a skill, but I'm not sure how to get Roll20 to display that information to some players and not others - there's probably a way though). Anyhow if I'm going to this extent, there will be some default behavior I have in mind for the enemies before any sort of alerts or distractions go up, and I'll make decisions based on what happens as far as whether to change those behaviors. Losing pips for stealthing through a line of sight doesn't generally lead to a change in guard patterns, but e.g. something like a stealth kill even if there are pips to pay for it might still cause some reaction when that guard fails to check in, just not a 'they're over here!' kind of reaction. Or, say, stealing a guarded object under the guards' noses - they won't detect the thief, but in a round or so they will notice that the object is missing if they're literally keeping eyes on where it should be. And of course an intentional distraction can change behaviors.

In that campaign I had a sort of 'challenge tower' thing with 10 floors to stress test the system. Each floor had a specific, fairly short time limit to get through - 5 rounds or 7 rounds or whatever. 'Fast stealth' played a significant role in how the party approached several of the levels, not committing strictly to 'we must not be discovered at all', but trying to push how long they could stay hidden and make progress before stuff started to chase them.

[Notafish]

These are really interesting concepts! I replied to the first several bullet points.

No target system. This made me think about what the consequences of making stealth a focal point of the game would be. I know there are several heist and espionage TTRPGs, none of which I've played, but this did make me think about how videogames handle stealth. One that I like quite a bit is Invisible Inc., which is basically Stealth XCOM - a turn-based, grid-based, stealth focused indie game. Since it is on a grid with a computer running the game, evaluating things like line-of-sight and patrol paths is easy in a way that might be too clunky for a tabletop game. Some ideas used in Invisible that could be easily ported include an alert clock that ticks down every turn but can be accelerated by making noise or killing a guard. When the clock completes a cycle (every 7 ticks or so), the situation gets more dangerous - ranging from more guards on patrol to the guards automatically knowing that they have been infiltrated and calling in backup. It's a great mechanic that forces tricky choices - can you afford the time to explore every nook and cranny? Another idea that I think is generally helpful include the player characters being stealthy by default (if you stay out of sight and don't make noise on purpose, you won't be noticed at most alert levels. One mechanic that I think is great in a stealth focused game (as opposed to one where stealth is just an option) is high lethality. The player characters do not have hit points - they just have statuses: active, encumbered, unconscious, dying, or dead. With rare exceptions, the way to stay alive in the game is by staying out of sight.

Stealth play must be choral. I think the easiest way to accomplish this is to adopt the stance of "hidden by default" if you want the party to move stealthily together. If you would have to go out of your way to make a failed stealth roll interesting as a GM, just don't ask for it. In most of my games, I think that Sir Clanksalot should be welcome to join Sneaksy the Rogue for a bit of fort infiltration without worrying about being found through the simple act of moving around. Sneaksy should probably be the one to slip past the guard to lower the drawbridge, though. For team stealth issues like setting ambushes or hiding in merchant's cart to get out of town safely, I'd rather look for a way for the group to set a DC for the enemies than to ask for a roll.

A valid alternative to combat. In a DnD-type game, I think this comes down to adventure design more than system design. I wouldn't want the stealth part of the game to be as involved as the combat part of the game, but having ways to avoid fights by getting in and getting out unseen can be fun. I think a grid so that you can better guage sightlines could help to make the stealth game more interesting, and allow for more player engagement if you run it in initiative order.

Silent and lethal. I don't think this works in a game where one-shot kills are otherwise rare. Incorporating a rule like this into a DnD like for me would require being very clear that HP is not meat, and allowing attacks from stealth to do direct damage somehow. Having Hit Points and Alert Points have similarities might be a way around this, as you suggest. I'd count up for Alert points, though - as players take actions, enemies' guard should go up, rather than down, and 0 Alertness meaning "unconscious/incapacitated" makes a certain amount of aesthetic sense to me.

This discussion also reminded me of a rule from an old James Bond RPG that I read once: "Stolen uniforms from unconscious enemies always fit."

[Old Harry MTX]

If it's an improvised situation (players decide to go stealth into an enemy camp or whatever on the fly) then there will generally be a few chokepoints with stationary guards that can be spotted from a distance, and there may or may not be roving patrols which could be detected with some scouting but which I won't automatically tell the party about; but I'll keep it as abstract as e.g. 'I wait for a gap in the patrols' if they do scout out the patrols, versus 'as you're sneaking, suddenly patrol!' if they don't scout them out. I won't resolve line of sight too carefully here, just theater of mind sorts of 'I hide behind a crate' things.

If it's something more planned in advance, I'll put everyone on a battle map on Roll20 and do round by round decisions for the enemies, and basically treat it as if I were running a combat. Roll20 lets me make obstacles that block line of sight or lighting, so I can drop a light source on a given guard to show what they can/can't see. Generally speaking I'll let players see those zones (I could gate it behind a given level of a skill, but I'm not sure how to get Roll20 to display that information to some players and not others - there's probably a way though). Anyhow if I'm going to this extent, there will be some default behavior I have in mind for the enemies before any sort of alerts or distractions go up, and I'll make decisions based on what happens as far as whether to change those behaviors. Losing pips for stealthing through a line of sight doesn't generally lead to a change in guard patterns, but e.g. something like a stealth kill even if there are pips to pay for it might still cause some reaction when that guard fails to check in, just not a 'they're over here!' kind of reaction. Or, say, stealing a guarded object under the guards' noses - they won't detect the thief, but in a round or so they will notice that the object is missing if they're literally keeping eyes on where it should be. And of course an intentional distraction can change behaviors.

I'd like to express these cases through a set of generic rules, but trying to make everything as less verbose and complicated as possible. Thanks for your suggestions!


In that campaign I had a sort of 'challenge tower' thing with 10 floors to stress test the system. Each floor had a specific, fairly short time limit to get through - 5 rounds or 7 rounds or whatever. 'Fast stealth' played a significant role in how the party approached several of the levels, not committing strictly to 'we must not be discovered at all', but trying to push how long they could stay hidden and make progress before stuff started to chase them.


No target system. This made me think about what the consequences of making stealth a focal point of the game would be. I know there are several heist and espionage TTRPGs, none of which I've played, but this did make me think about how videogames handle stealth. One that I like quite a bit is Invisible Inc., which is basically Stealth XCOM - a turn-based, grid-based, stealth focused indie game. Since it is on a grid with a computer running the game, evaluating things like line-of-sight and patrol paths is easy in a way that might be too clunky for a tabletop game. Some ideas used in Invisible that could be easily ported include an alert clock that ticks down every turn but can be accelerated by making noise or killing a guard. When the clock completes a cycle (every 7 ticks or so), the situation gets more dangerous - ranging from more guards on patrol to the guards automatically knowing that they have been infiltrated and calling in backup. It's a great mechanic that forces tricky choices - can you afford the time to explore every nook and cranny? Another idea that I think is generally helpful include the player characters being stealthy by default (if you stay out of sight and don't make noise on purpose, you won't be noticed at most alert levels. One mechanic that I think is great in a stealth focused game (as opposed to one where stealth is just an option) is high lethality. The player characters do not have hit points - they just have statuses: active, encumbered, unconscious, dying, or dead. With rare exceptions, the way to stay alive in the game is by staying out of sight.

Ok, adding a system that rises the Alarm Level seems mandatory...


Stealth play must be choral. I think the easiest way to accomplish this is to adopt the stance of "hidden by default" if you want the party to move stealthily together. If you would have to go out of your way to make a failed stealth roll interesting as a GM, just don't ask for it. In most of my games, I think that Sir Clanksalot should be welcome to join Sneaksy the Rogue for a bit of fort infiltration without worrying about being found through the simple act of moving around. Sneaksy should probably be the one to slip past the guard to lower the drawbridge, though. For team stealth issues like setting ambushes or hiding in merchant's cart to get out of town safely, I'd rather look for a way for the group to set a DC for the enemies than to ask for a roll.

I've always hated considering knights in armor as if they were covered in cowbells and Christmas lights by default. As I said in other posts, I would like everyone to have the possibility to do stealth, obviously with specific skills, methods and roles. Maybe not everyone could do that ALONE, so focusing on combined actions could be the right way.


Silent and lethal. I don't think this works in a game where one-shot kills are otherwise rare. Incorporating a rule like this into a DnD like for me would require being very clear that HP is not meat, and allowing attacks from stealth to do direct damage somehow. Having Hit Points and Alert Points have similarities might be a way around this, as you suggest. I'd count up for Alert points, though - as players take actions, enemies' guard should go up, rather than down, and 0 Alertness meaning "unconscious/incapacitated" makes a certain amount of aesthetic sense to me.

Keeping Hit Points and Alert Points separate also creates an interesting disparity. For example, a wiry goblin shaman might have more Alert Points than a beefy berserk goblin.


This discussion also reminded me of a rule from an old James Bond RPG that I read once: "Stolen uniforms from unconscious enemies always fit."

This one seems the name of a subclass feature! XD

[Old Harry MTX]

Okay guys
Since at the moment I still have to organize the ideas, I started writing them in the way that I think is the best to lay down a basis: a glossary.

You can find it here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/15qDuefrWn9RU8t_xtrQQJEZrgK5aE4m9G0wnXAnQwVQ/edit?usp=sharing) and in the first post of the topic. You should have access as commenter.

Once I have something more defined I will also format it in the forum version, in the meantime I invite you to suggest any improvement or advice, or to write anything that may seem useful to you (mechanics, spells, maneuvers, combos, behaviors, ...).

Anything that crosses your mind is welcome!