Ideas for a skill based system

[S@tanicoaldo]

Hey guys, so I'm working on a skill based system with roll under mechanics since I have severe dyscalculia and those games are easier for me to grasp.

I wanted some general board skills since my focus would be on roleplaying and not rolling dice, but I didn't want to ignore rolling dice in it's entirety, it's an RPG after all.

So far I was able to come up with 20 skills:

-Athletics:
-Awareness:
-Dodge:
-Fight:
-Fortitude:
-Interaction:
-Knowledge:
-Languages:
-Parry:
-Performance:
-Profession:
-Reflex:
-Science:
-Shoot:
-Technology:
-Thievery:
-Toughness:
-Vehicle:
-Wilderness:
-Willpower:

People would roll for it, re-roll one, switch one and add some extra points for customization, but the values can't can't go over 18.


They would roll under the stat with a d20.

I think I got a nice selection of skills very board and general the way I wanted, but players said:

>20 is way too many, I disagree since I think it's a good number for general skills, each class with have their own things going on on top of it, the ideia is that the game is simple but not too simplistic... and since we will be using a d20 I liked the ideia of 20 skills. What you guys think?

>Some players really disliked all social interactions boiling down to one skill (interaction) and how that would be an issue, I argued that roleplaying should be more important than rolls in social interactions, and they said it was a bad ideia.

What you guys think?

[MrStabby]

If numbers are a challenge, could you use a card based system? Succes, failure, conditional succes, conditional failure - other benefits? As you gain skills you get to stack the deck with better cards and skills that narrow conditions for faiure and expand success as wel as changing the consequences? No calculations and you can get a feel for outcomes by looking through the deck?

[akma]

>20 is way too many, I disagree since I think it's a good number for general skills, each class with have their own things going on on top of it, the ideia is that the game is simple but not too simplistic... and since we will be using a d20 I liked the ideia of 20 skills. What you guys think?

There seems to be some redundancy in the skill list itself. Why are reflex, dodge and parry three different skills? Why do you need both science and technology? Both toughness and fortitude? Fight could be covered by several of the others in the list without needing a separate skill.
I am not sure if a player would ever need to roll languages.



>Some players really disliked all social interactions boiling down to one skill (interaction) and how that would be an issue, I argued that roleplaying should be more important than rolls in social interactions, and they said it was a bad ideia.


It would make the social aspect of the system incredibly shallow.

[Devils_Advocate]

It's not necessarily bad to have some overlap, but some of those currently seem so broad as to include others entirely. For example, changing "Fight" to e.g. "Swing" would help to differentiate it from Shoot and Parry. And "Knowledge" potentially covers a lot: the entirety of "Science", for starters; and "Science" is itself still extremely broad! (Then again, how similar is the setting supposed to be to the real world?)


Some players really disliked all social interactions boiling down to one skill (interaction) and how that would be an issue, I argued that roleplaying should be more important than rolls in social interactions
So the purported character trait is basically worthless? (https://www.demonac.com/anothergamingcomic/agc004) Dump it entirely, then.

Dump "classes" too if a simple (character) skills-based system is what you want.

[S@tanicoaldo]

If numbers are a challenge, could you use a card based system? Succes, failure, conditional succes, conditional failure - other benefits? As you gain skills you get to stack the deck with better cards and skills that narrow conditions for faiure and expand success as wel as changing the consequences? No calculations and you can get a feel for outcomes by looking through the deck?

People told me that but honestly, non die systems seem like such a headache to organize and set up and are not as popular, besides I have zero experience with them and I really wanted to make a skill die system to work!


There seems to be some redundancy in the skill list itself. Why are reflex, dodge and parry three different skills? Why do you need both science and technology? Both toughness and fortitude? Fight could be covered by several of the others in the list without needing a separate skill.
I am not sure if a player would ever need to roll languages.



It would make the social aspect of the system incredibly shallow.

Well, in my read reflex is like when it's a surprise, kind of like a spider sense. For traps or surprise attacks.
Dodge is when your body dodges the attack and you are able to create some distance.
Parry is when your weapon deflects an attack and you create a window of opportunity to counter attack.

So they may be similar but to me completely different.


It's not necessarily bad to have some overlap, but some of those currently seem so broad as to include others entirely. For example, changing "Fight" to e.g. "Swing" would help to differentiate it from Shoot and Parry. And "Knowledge" potentially covers a lot: the entirety of "Science", for starters; and "Science" is itself still extremely broad! (Then again, how similar is the setting supposed to be to the real world?)


So the purported character trait is basically worthless? (https://www.demonac.com/anothergamingcomic/agc004) Dump it entirely, then.

Dump "classes" too if a simple (character) skills-based system is what you want.

Fight can be used for weapons that don't swing, like they poke and stuff and even your fists LOL

Knowledge is like more general information while Science is more pratica application?

The issue is sometimes I think it makes sense to roll for social stuff but very rarely, and I would never dump CLASSES since I love job systems in RPGS I live for them and the point is that I want very original and unique archetypes to deal with. Stuff I like in fantasy stories but I don't see "represented" enough in RPGs LOL that's the whole point of the system I'm working on.

[Devils_Advocate]

Well, in my read reflex is like when it's a surprise, kind of like a spider sense. For traps or surprise attacks.
Dodge is when your body dodges the attack and you are able to create some distance.
Parry is when your weapon deflects an attack and you create a window of opportunity to counter attack.
But the value of seeing a surprise hazard coming is being able to react defensively to it. And normally defensive maneuvers are in response to perceived threats.

Like, suppose that I have excellent Reflex but terrible Dodge and Parry. Then I'm all like "Oh no, my spider sense is telling me that I'm about to get hurt a lot! Woe is me!" Whereas with great Dodge or Parry but awful Reflex, I evade or block stuff that I wasn't even aware of, like I'm a goddamn ninja or something.

Contrast that to, say, "Dodging uses the Reflex skill and parrying uses the Fight skill", which makes a lot more sense.


Fight can be used for weapons that don't swing, like they poke and stuff and even your fists LOL
Well, I'm not sure what the best word for "make a melee attack" is, but I'm pretty sure that it's not "Fight", given that ranged attacks are also fighting.


Knowledge is like more general information while Science is more pratica application?
Then what's Technology? I don't think that there are many non-technological examples of applied knowledge. Maybe a few, but not enough for a skill.

Maybe Science is knowledge of practical application and Technology is practical skill in using technology? But then Vehicle and indeed Shoot are subsumed in Technology! It's subcategories all the way down!


The issue is sometimes I think it makes sense to roll for social stuff but very rarely
In one lengthy discussion of the subject, one consensus seemed to be that the best, least B.S. character social ability is understanding others' motivations: "Sense Motive", "Insight", or whatever you want to call it. So if you're going to go with just one social skill, that should probably be it, or the core of it. (And, if nothing else, "Does it seem like this character is lying?" is the most obvious place to use character rather than player ability. Of course the GM and the players all seem like they're acting; they're portraying fictional characters!)


I would never dump CLASSES since I love job systems in RPGS I live for them and the point is that I want very original and unique archetypes to deal with. Stuff I like in fantasy stories but I don't see "represented" enough in RPGs LOL that's the whole point of the system I'm working on.
That seems like less of a simple skill-based system and more of a complex class-based system. :P But that's fine if that's what you want.

[Maat Mons]

How does Profession work? Doe a high value in Profession mean you're good at every profession that exists? Do you have to pick one profession, that's the one the number applies to, and you can never get trained in a second one? Can I learn 11 professions, each with its own Profession skill number, and actually have 30 entries for Skills on my character sheet?

[S@tanicoaldo]

Guess I should try to explain character creation briefly yo get it out of the way...

The game is a simple d20 game with freeformish gameplay. It's Roleplay heavy with some combat and puzzles.

All rolls are a simple d20 roll, if you roll under your stat you pass if you don't you fail. 01 is a critical hit 20 is a critical failure.

players will roll 3D6 for each stat, they don't need to worry if the stat is too low there will be a lot of bonus and +X actions in the games.

After rolling you can add some points freely, I often use 20 but it depends on the type of game and characters you want.

After that add a mundane equipment section to your character, write about their equipment and they are good to go.

Equipment is free. Non-magical. I prefer to keep the equipment to stuff the pcs plan to carry around, weapons, material components, adventure gear, clothes that kind of personal thing.

18 is cap.

If a player don't like their rolls they can have one re-roll and one swap.

All of that on top of the skills provided by the classes.

Here is an overview of the skills (I think some are missing like wildness)

Athletics : Acrobatics, Balance, Climb, Fly, Jump, Ride, Swim, Tumble.

Awareness: Concentration, Investigate, Listen, Notice, Perception, Search, Sense Motive, Spot.

Dodge: Ranged Defense.

Fight: Base Attack Bonus for Melee Attacks

Fortitude: Fortitude Save

Interaction: Bluff, Diplomacy, Innuendo, Gamble, Gather Information, Knowledge (gossip), Intimidate, Read Lips.

Knowledge: Appraise, Knowledge (all subskills not mentioned elsewhere)

Research Languages: Decipher Script, Linguistics, Read/Write Language, Speak Language, Speak Other Language.

Parry: Melee Defense

Performance : Craft (artistic, visual art, writing), Disguise, Entertain

Perform Profession: Profession (all subskills), Reputation

Reflex : Reflex Save

Science: Craft (pharmaceutical), Knowledge (architecture and engineering, behavioral sciences, earth and life sciences, physical sciences), Psicraft, Psychoanalysis, Spellcraft, Treat

Technology: Computer Use, Computers, Knowledge (technology), Repair, Scry, Use Magic Device, Use Psionic Device

Toughness: Toughness Save or Hit.

Willpower: Mental resistance and defense against domination from the forces of chaos.


How does Profession work? Doe a high value in Profession mean you're good at every profession that exists? Do you have to pick one profession, that's the one the number applies to, and you can never get trained in a second one? Can I learn 11 professions, each with its own Profession skill number, and actually have 30 entries for Skills on my character sheet?

Yeah it's weird, but that's the ideia, for exemple if someone is going to try to mend an outfit they would roll Profession, even if they are not like a tailor, it's up to the DM to see if that makes sense for the character or not...

Same for blacksmith or glassblowing or whatever, although there was for a time a specialization system.

I actually ran a short lived play by post game using this system for a while... If you guys want to check it out:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?558060-The-Ivory-tree-coven-of-witches-and-wizards-A-simple-D20-with-frefrom-elements-game"] (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?558060-The-Ivory-tree-coven-of-witches-and-wizards-A-simple-D20-with-frefrom-elements-game)

It' was a magic user only camping tho.

[Tarmor]

The Skill overview helps, but you may want to change a few names, and/or make your descriptions more defined.
For example: Fortitude and Toughness still seem like they are the same thing.
Having Knowledge and Science skills (especially when you mention Knowledge as type of Science AND Technology) is confusing, as other people have mentioned.
Maybe break some of your skills in half, and combine others that are simpler.

Consider something like "Combat - Melee" and "Combat - Ranged" (or just Melee & Ranged) instead of Fight and Shoot, then you perhaps do not require the Dodge and Parry skills.

[Maat Mons]

I don’t really get why you think a roll-under system is any simpler than any other system. You’re going to need 3 numbers, as best I can figure, to determine if a roll is a success. One number representing player skill, one number representing the difficulty of the task, and one number representing random chance. So, rolling is pretty much going to consist of taking the player’s skill value, adding or subtracting a number for the difficulty of the task, and comparing the die roll to the result of that addition or subtraction. With a D&D-like system, take the die roll, add or subtract the player’s skill value, and compare to the difficulty of the task. Either way, it’s one addition or subtraction, and one comparison. Computationally speaking, they the exact same amount of work.

The only way I can think of to avoid any sort of arithmetic is to make either player skill or task difficulty modify what dice are rolled.

This would be easy in a dice-pool system. Roll a number of dice equal to your skill. If any die shows a number greater than the task difficulty, the roll is a success. Or, if bigger numbers equate to being less skilled, roll a number of dice equal to player skill, and fail if any die shows a number lower than the difficulty. Or you can reverse the higher/lower parts if bigger numbers for difficulty represent an easier task. The down side of this is that you need to know the player skill value before rolling any dice. That may sound trivial, but it means if a player, for example, confuses Toughness and Fortitude, or Science and Technology, there isn’t necessarily any way to salvage the roll they already made. You just have to throw it out and roll again.

You could also do the reverse, roll a number of dice based on the difficulty of the task, and compare to the player’s skill. Easy tasks could succeed if any one die succeeds, and hard tasks could fail if any die fails. This is basically what 5e calls Advantage and Disadvantage. The down side of this is that you need to know the difficulty of the task before you roll.

Instead of altering the number of dice rolled, you could always roll one die, but what type of die is rolled based on either the player’s skill, or the difficulty of the task.

[S@tanicoaldo]

The Skill overview helps, but you may want to change a few names, and/or make your descriptions more defined.

Fair, and noted.



For example: Fortitude and Toughness still seem like they are the same thing.

In my head, and clearly I didn't translate the ideia well, one would be for the moment you take damage, the other for the subsequent rolls after you get a wound.


Having Knowledge and Science skills (especially when you mention Knowledge as type of Science AND Technology) is confusing, as other people have mentioned.

To me having some overlap is good.

Say after some rocks fel and your friend's leg is stuck, you lack the Athletics to lift the rocks so you try to make a lever, you could argue that you could roll using your ____ score since there are so many things involved in making a lever.


Maybe break some of your skills in half, and combine others that are simpler.

But people were talking about the list being long as it is Hahhahahaha.


Consider something like "Combat - Melee" and "Combat - Ranged" (or just Melee & Ranged) instead of Fight and Shoot
That's a good ideia, thanks.


then you perhaps do not require the Dodge and Parry skills.

Nha I plan on keeping it since I want the combat to be very deadly and more based on avoiding damage than tanking hits. I want it very fast paced with a lot of parrying like the swashbuckling movies I used to watch as a kid.

Maybe I should do another post to talk about the project in general? Or should I just keep talking in here :smallconfused:


I don’t really get why you think a roll-under system is any simpler than any other system.
I don't know either, it's just easier for me Hahahaha, I know many other people with the issue I have that find it easier as well, I have no ideia how that works but it does.

Besides, a D&D system has a lot more calculations involved,a t least in my perception, you have to use a stat system which I already don't like since stats make no sense for me, how can you mesure wisdom? Or charisma? It makes zero sense. And after that you have to add the bonus and the things and after a while it's just too much math for me.


You’re going to need 3 numbers, as best I can figure, to determine if a roll is a success. One number representing player skill, one number representing the difficulty of the task, and one number representing random chance. So, rolling is pretty much going to consist of taking the player’s skill value, adding or subtracting a number for the difficulty of the task, and comparing the die roll to the result of that addition or subtraction. With a D&D-like system, take the die roll, add or subtract the player’s skill value, and compare to the difficulty of the task. Either way, it’s one addition or subtraction, and one comparison. Computationally speaking, they the exact same amount of work.

It seems like it should be that way, but it just isn't, at least for me, I find D&D and the like too overwehlming, the only game I had no issues was Paranoia XP for some reason and that's what I'm trying to emulate.

The perfect image to represent my issues with that: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html Hahahahaha.


This would be easy in a dice-pool system. Roll a number of dice equal to your skill. If any die shows a number greater than the task difficulty, the roll is a success. Or, if bigger numbers equate to being less skilled, roll a number of dice equal to player skill, and fail if any die shows a number lower than the difficulty. Or you can reverse the higher/lower parts if bigger numbers for difficulty represent an easier task. The down side of this is that you need to know the player skill value before rolling any dice. That may sound trivial, but it means if a player, for example, confuses Toughness and Fortitude, or Science and Technology, there isn’t necessarily any way to salvage the roll they already made. You just have to throw it out and roll again.

You could also do the reverse, roll a number of dice based on the difficulty of the task, and compare to the player’s skill. Easy tasks could succeed if any one die succeeds, and hard tasks could fail if any die fails. This is basically what 5e calls Advantage and Disadvantage. The down side of this is that you need to know the difficulty of the task before you roll.

Instead of altering the number of dice rolled, you could always roll one die, but what type of die is rolled based on either the player’s skill, or the difficulty of the task.

Maybe, but I really want to make this roll under system work.

This whole thing you said sounds way more complicated.