PDA

View Full Version : Help with Sundering



turkishproverb
2007-12-07, 08:09 PM
Hey, besides the obvious (Improved sunder, power attack) does anyone know of any items/feats that help with sundering objects?

Citizen Joe
2007-12-07, 08:11 PM
Adamantine weapons bypass hardness up to 40 (adamantine)

turkishproverb
2007-12-07, 08:18 PM
Adamantine weapons bypass hardness up to 40 (adamantine)

That one I knew. Any other ideas?

FinalJustice
2007-12-07, 08:30 PM
Combat Brute (CWar), if you destroy someone's object, you get an attack with the same bonus against the dude.

Jack Zander
2007-12-07, 08:33 PM
Combat Brute (CWar), if you destroy someone's object, you get an attack with the same bonus against the dude.

Cleave through the weapon into the opponent, nice. However, players and DMs alike generally don't like to sunder as it destroys pcs loot. However, against mooks with no magical stuff sunder is okay (but then again, you could probably kill them easier anyway).

Fax Celestis
2007-12-07, 08:35 PM
Ranged Sunder? Item of on-command/charges-per-day shatter? One-level warlock dip for Baleful Utterance?

tyckspoon
2007-12-07, 08:38 PM
Realmshelp returns the following feats as specifically involved with Sunder (there are probably better ones that help out with sunder as a package deal, like Combat Brute.) There are also a couple of Epic sunder feats, but they suck like most weapon-focused Epic feats do.

Focused Sunder: Psionic, expend focus to ignore half of target object's hardness.
Raging Sunder: Requires Rage, Improved Sunder (Dragon Mag. 310) +4 to hit carried and held objects with Sunder attempt, stacks with Imp. Sunder.
Ranged Sunder: Sundering for archers, allows a ranged sunder attempt from within 30 ft. Piercing weapons do half damage.

OzymandiasVolt
2007-12-07, 08:58 PM
The Maul of the Titans does triple damage to inanimate objects.

turkishproverb
2007-12-07, 09:08 PM
The Maul of the Titans does triple damage to inanimate objects.

that a feat or a weapon?

Zeful
2007-12-07, 09:14 PM
The Psy Warrior power dissipating touch is good for sundering, because when you manifest that at about a tenth level power you can generally destroy any weapon you touch.

Signmaker
2007-12-07, 09:18 PM
Supposedly there's this Complete Champion feat that allows you to ignore hardness for a minute at a time. If someone who actually has the book could post it, that would be helpful.

UserClone
2007-12-07, 09:20 PM
Three words. (no, wait, four.)


(Large.) ADAMANTINE. SHATTERSPIKE. SWORDBREAKER.

RTGoodman
2007-12-07, 09:23 PM
The Sundering weapon property (MIC, and probably elsewhere) gives you Improved Sunder and +1d6 damage on sunders.

turkishproverb
2007-12-07, 09:42 PM
Supposedly there's this Complete Champion feat that allows you to ignore hardness for a minute at a time. If someone who actually has the book could post it, that would be helpful.

Yea, I'd love to know about that.

SadisticFishing
2007-12-07, 10:02 PM
Strength Devotion.

turkishproverb
2007-12-07, 10:12 PM
Strength Devotion.

Nice. Prereque's?

herrhauptmann
2007-12-07, 10:30 PM
I think it was said, but... Shatterspike in the DMG is a weapon with 'shatter' on it. Given example is a longsword, but put it on any weapon, especially a 2 hander. +1 bonus
Adamantine weapons ignore hardness for everything but other adamantine weapons.
The sundering property from MIC. +1 bonus
Armbands of might from MIC 4400 gold
Shock trooper feat from Com War
Combat Brute feat from Com War.
Leap attack feat from Com Adv

Part of shock trooper allows you to use power attack on a charge and put part of your PA penalty to your AC. I always run it so that a point of PA can only go to AC or to Damage. I've seen people try to argue both...

Assume a 10th level fighter with 18 strength sundering with a +1 shatterspike greatsword and 8 points of powerattack. Attacking an elf with dual shortswords. Weapon focus, Greater weapon focus, and weapon spec.

First round make a jumping charge (leap attack), use shock trooper to raise AC if you wish. Assuming no AC bonus Leap attack gives you 24 points of damage on your charge (8x3). Improved Sunder gives you +4 to attack their weapon. 2 handed weapons give additional +4 on attack, Light weapons give -4 penalty during the opposed attack rolls. Bigger person gets a +4 for every size category difference.
For a 2d6+4 (shatterspike) +24 (leap attack) + 6 (str mod) +2. Average damage 43.
Your opposed roll will be 1d20 +4 (shatterspike) +4 (improved sunder) +4(greatsword) +2 (charging) +2 BAB +2 (G. Weapon Focus). So 1d20+18. And your opponent will get a -4 just because he's wielding a light weapon.

If you break his weapon use Combat Brute for Sundering Cleave.

Regardless if you break his weapon Momentum swing from Combat brute lets you powerattack again in the second round, once again every point of penalty for power attack gets to count for triple again.

Edited to add in the math.

tyckspoon
2007-12-07, 10:33 PM
Part of shock trooper allows you to use power attack on a charge and put part of your PA penalty to your AC. I always run it so that a point of PA can only go to AC or to Damage. I've seen people try to argue both...

Assume greatsword and 8 points of powerattack.
First round make a jumping charge (leap attack), use shock trooper to raise AC if you wish. Assuming no AC bonus Leap attack gives you 24 points of damage on your charge (8x3). Improved Sunder gives you +4 to attack their weapon. 2 handed weapons give additional +4 on attack, Light weapons give -4 penalty during the opposed attack rolls. Bigger person gets a +4 for every size category difference.


You have a significant misunderstanding of Shock Trooper, here. It doesn't let you use Power Attack to raise your AC; it lets you convert the to-hit penalty to an AC penalty. Power Attack's benefit is always to raise your damage, and Shock Trooper doesn't change that. It only changes what you trade for the damage.

FinalJustice
2007-12-07, 10:42 PM
But shocktroopering into sunder is still a really valid strategy. Choose to put all the penalty into AC, leaving your attack bonus as good as it gets with things like improved sunder, charge and leap attack the foe's weapon. With the stupid ammount of damage you deal by full power attacking, with an adamantine weapon, just pray for the foe's weapon have a magic bonus equal or lower than yours. Given that, you can shatter his weapon into oblivion, deal a load of damage with Sunder Cleave and probably don't get full-attacked, since the poor guy will have to draw another weapon and quick draw isn't really a common feat choice, or use natural weapons, which prevents some extra strength bonus damage.

herrhauptmann
2007-12-07, 10:43 PM
I hope OGL doesn't kill me for this...
'The penalty you take on your attack roll must be -5 or worse. In addition to normal charge mods, you can assign any portion of the attack roll penalty from PA to your AC instead, up to your full BAB.'

Unless I misstyped in my above post, I stick by what I said.

herrhauptmann
2007-12-07, 10:47 PM
But shocktroopering into sunder is still a really valid strategy. Choose to put all the penalty into AC, leaving your attack bonus as good as it gets with things like improved sunder, charge and leap attack the foe's weapon. With the stupid ammount of damage you deal by full power attacking, with an adamantine weapon, just pray for the foe's weapon have a magic bonus equal or lower than yours. Given that, you can shatter his weapon into oblivion, deal a load of damage with Sunder Cleave and probably don't get full-attacked, since the poor guy will have to draw another weapon and quick draw isn't really a common feat choice, or use natural weapons, which prevents some extra strength bonus damage.


That's part of the goodness of shatterspike.
"Wielders without imp sund use it as a +1 weapon only. Wielders with imp sunder add a +4 bonus(including the swords +1 enhancement) to the opposed roll. If successful it deals 1d8+4 (for a +1 weapon) plus str mod. It can damage weaons of +4 or less."

FinalJustice
2007-12-07, 10:55 PM
The shocktrooper works just like you explained, I agree. ^^

And, if I got things right, this Shatterspike adds a +3 enhancement bonus to the weapon for the purpose of sundering stuff, as long as you have Imp Sunder feat, thus, making it almost a 'must have' for sundering guys, since BBEGs tend to have good weapons they don't like to get pwn3d. (Imagine breaking that damn' vorpal/nine lives stealer, COOL =D)

tyckspoon
2007-12-07, 11:10 PM
I hope OGL doesn't kill me for this...
'The penalty you take on your attack roll must be -5 or worse. In addition to normal charge mods, you can assign any portion of the attack roll penalty from PA to your AC instead, up to your full BAB.'

Unless I misstyped in my above post, I stick by what I said.

*shrug* This is in opposition to the accepted use and reading of the feat according to every other mention of it I've ever seen, but if you're convinced of it I probably can't change your mind. I will point out that it makes no mention of changing the type of modifier that is being transferred. The wording of the feat implies that the attack roll penalty should be transferred to AC as a penalty; it does not say 'assign any portion of the ... penalty from power attack to your AC as a bonus.'

Ganurath
2007-12-07, 11:11 PM
Nice. Prereque's?Be someone who's deity has the Strength domain, unless your a cleric. In which case, you need to have Strength as one of your domains.

herrhauptmann
2007-12-07, 11:12 PM
The shocktrooper works just like you explained, I agree. ^^

And, if I got things right, this Shatterspike adds a +3 enhancement bonus to the weapon for the purpose of sundering stuff, as long as you have Imp Sunder feat, thus, making it almost a 'must have' for sundering guys, since BBEGs tend to have good weapons they don't like to get pwn3d. (Imagine breaking that damn' vorpal/nine lives stealer, COOL =D)

On the downside, blackguards have improved sunder as a prereq. :smalleek:

Apoc360
2007-12-07, 11:26 PM
You can always take the Great Horn Minotaur hammer from MM4 (I think this is right, don't really have my books here with me). 1d12 with a +4 bonus on sunder attempts.

Kaelik
2007-12-07, 11:55 PM
I hope OGL doesn't kill me for this...
'The penalty you take on your attack roll must be -5 or worse. In addition to normal charge mods, you can assign any portion of the attack roll penalty from PA to your AC instead, up to your full BAB.'

Unless I misstyped in my above post, I stick by what I said.

So given two possibilities:
1) Take a penalty to AC in order to gain damage.
2) Take a penalty to AB in order to gain AC.

You feel that the second one is more likely to be the correct course of events when applying Heedless charge?

herrhauptmann
2007-12-08, 12:04 AM
The way I see it, an 8th level fighter can take a -8 to attack. And put it all to damage. Put it all to AC, or split it up. Say 4 and 4, 6 and 2 and so on.
I know it doesn't fit with the title of 'heedless charge', but that's how I see it.
It sort of seems to be a combat expertise for strong dumb people.

And it's not mentioned in the errata I downloaded (8-1-2005)

I've seen people argue that you take the -8 to attack, for +8 damage AND +8 AC.

tyckspoon
2007-12-08, 12:25 AM
The way I see it, an 8th level fighter can take a -8 to attack. And put it all to damage. Put it all to AC, or split it up. Say 4 and 4, 6 and 2 and so on.
I know it doesn't fit with the title of 'heedless charge', but that's how I see it.
It sort of seems to be a combat expertise for strong dumb people.

And it's not mentioned in the errata I downloaded (8-1-2005)

I've seen people argue that you take the -8 to attack, for +8 damage AND +8 AC.

First off, smack those people who are arguing in favor of that last line, because they're both wrong and trying to wring extra curds out of an already cheese-flavored ability.

I told myself I wasn't going to keep arguing this, but apparently I'm a glutton for punishment, so-

"you can assign any portion of the attack roll penalty from Power Attack to your Armor Class instead, up to a maximum equal to your base attack bonus."

Let's do some math!
PA bonus damage (x) To-hit modifier (y) AC (Z)
Normal Power Attacking gives this: (x+4) (y-4) (Z)
Shock Trooper moves the location of the -4, no more, no less: (x+4) (y) (Z-4)

Isn't that simple? Nowhere does the feat say the penalty is converted to a bonus. Moving a penalty from one place to another leaves it as a penalty. You could be really obstinate about the text of the Power Attack feat and insist that you have to take the penalty to your attack roll to get any extra damage, which would render Heedless Charge worse than useless, but in no way does the feat provide for turning BAB into a bonus to AC. (That's what Combat Expertise is for, after all..)

Riffington
2007-12-08, 12:30 AM
assign any portion of the attack roll penalty from PA to your AC instead.

What do you think the word "instead" means in this sentence?
do you think the word "instead" means "as a bonus", so that the sentence would read "assign any portion of the attack roll penalty from PA to your AC as a bonus"?
Or do you think it's possible that "instead" actually means "instead"? i.e. that you normally apply the penalty from PA to your attack roll, but now you can assign some portion of that penalty to your AC instead of to your attack roll.

Riffington
2007-12-08, 12:38 AM
Oh, and the beauty of sunder is that you don't have to only sunder valuable things.

Sunder an archer's quiver, and his arrows are all on the floor... hampers his fire rate and you get all kinds of attacks of opportunity if he picks one up.
Or sunder a wizard's spell component pouch or a priest's holy symbol...

tyckspoon
2007-12-08, 12:41 AM
Oh, and the beauty of sunder is that you don't have to only sunder valuable things.

Sunder an archer's quiver, and his arrows are all on the floor... hampers his fire rate and you get all kinds of attacks of opportunity if he picks one up.
Or sunder a wizard's spell component pouch or a priest's holy symbol...

Although most of those other kinds of targets are very fragile and don't require any particular optimization to break. Focusing on Sunder beyond just taking Improved Sunder (and buying an adamantine weapon, when affordable) is for people who want to slash through weapons and shields and carve ballrooms out of solid rock with nothing more than a sword.

herrhauptmann
2007-12-08, 02:16 PM
Riffington, Tyckspoon, Kaelik,
Well I slept then went back and reread the entry on Shocktroopers Heedless Charge. Yeah, I had it wrong. Looking at it the right way, it actually seems more useful to me now. :smallsmile:

FinalJustice
2007-12-08, 02:28 PM
Zomfg, I didn't figured you read it the other way, I got owned by my disattention and misunderstood it all HUEHAEUHAEUAE

Enguhl
2007-12-08, 06:20 PM
Adamantine weapons bypass hardness up to 40 (adamantine)

Adamantine ignores up to 20, not 40.

Curmudgeon
2007-12-09, 06:36 AM
Adamantine ignores up to 20, not 40. Thanks for this correction, Enguhl. Also note that adamantine has no special properties versus anything with hardness 20+, such as a +5 steel sword.

Talic
2007-12-09, 07:13 AM
Certain Stone Dragon Maneuvers ignore all hardness and add damage. Thus, your iron greatsword becomes a cut above adamant. Add in shock trooper and the rest, and you can make mincemeat out of an opponent's weapon. Follow up with improved trip, and your sundering cleave can be a trip, followed up by a bash to the face. Now your foe is weaponless, prone, and messed up.

herrhauptmann
2007-12-14, 01:10 AM
I know it's printed there somewhere, but how much does each +1 improve the hardness of a material?

tyckspoon
2007-12-14, 01:16 AM
Certain Stone Dragon Maneuvers ignore all hardness and add damage. Thus, your iron greatsword becomes a cut above adamant. Add in shock trooper and the rest, and you can make mincemeat out of an opponent's weapon. Follow up with improved trip, and your sundering cleave can be a trip, followed up by a bash to the face. Now your foe is weaponless, prone, and messed up.

They're also almost all Standard actions to use, which makes it a little hard to use charge-based stuff. Combat Brute's Sundering Cleave works, but Shock Trooper and Leap Attack won't be applicable.


I know it's printed there somewhere, but how much does each +1 improve the hardness of a material?

General Magic Weapon information, where it talks about bonus damage on crits, how magic ammunition works with magic ranged weapons, and other stuff. +2 hardness and +10 HP per point of base enhancement bonus.