BG3 inspired level cap adjustment (and a bit more)

[Arkhios]

I'll admit it straight away, BG3 is partially to blame!

Anyway, I was thinking that I'd try this in my game, and reset the hard level cap to 12 instead of 20. Obviously not touching the CR system. Reasonable monsters to throw at the players would be restricted by this change.

However, since feats are fun (and so are ability score increases), I was wondering if I should adjust the levels when the characters gain them as follows.

Option A): Feats and Ability Score improvements are gained at every two levels.
+ Pros: Everyone will get six of them by level 12, up from three.
- Cons: Fighters and Rogues gain extra at levels 6 and 10, respectively, and I'd rather not let them gain two at those levels.
Concern: Should I move the extra one level lower for both, or should I design new features to replace them? If design, any ideas are welcome!

Option B): Feats and Ability Score improvements are gained at every three levels.
+ Pros: Everyone will get four of them by level 12, up from three.
- Cons: Levels 3, 6, 9, and 12 are already quite full of other features in general.
Concern: the Con above may cause feature bloat since feats are quite extensive packages.

Also, since level cap is reduced to 12, I was wondering if it would be good idea to squish the proficiency bonus progression by a bit:
Option 1a): Proficiency Bonus starts at +0, increasing to +6 by level 12 (math: level divided by half, rounded down)
Option 1b): Proficiency Bonus starts at +2, increasing by 1 at levels 3, 7, 9, and 11 (to a maximum of +6 at level 11).

Option 2): Proficiency Bonus starts at +2, increasing by 1 at levels 4, 7, and 10 (to a maximum of +5 at level 10).


Also, any progression that would normally advance a character to a level beyond 12 would instead grant them an Epic Boon. Characters may gain multiple Boons and expend them as follows.

Gain a class feature you don't already have (as shown in your class table), extra hit die, maybe a feat, etc. (again, ideas are welcome).





Thoughts?

[JackPhoenix]

11 is better end point that 12. There's nothing special about 12, but as 11 is one of the tier breaks, most classes get a power bump that would serve well as a capstone: 6th level spell for fullcasters, 3rd Extra Attack for fighters, Reliable Talent for rogues, Improved Divine Smite, etc.. 12 is just an ASI, there's nothing special about that.

There's no reason to touch either ASI or (especially) proficiency bonuses. You may reward extra ASI/feats after level 11.

[Arkhios]

11 is better end point that 12. There's nothing special about 12, but as 11 is one of the tier breaks, most classes get a power bump that would serve well as a capstone: 6th level spell for fullcasters, 3rd Extra Attack for fighters, Reliable Talent for rogues, Improved Divine Smite, etc.. 12 is just an ASI, there's nothing special about that.

There's no reason to touch either ASI or (especially) proficiency bonuses. You may reward extra ASI/feats after level 11.

Well, you're not wrong about 12th level. Still, 11 would feel (and is) odd as cap level.

As for the ASI, I have to admit that there's is external reason to decrease the gap between them. That said, it's true I could reward extra ASI/feats as Epic Boons or something as mentioned.

[stoutstien]

Epic X style games have been around for a while and can work quick wel for certain tables.

[GloatingSwine]

11 is better end point that 12. There's nothing special about 12.

Actually there is. 12 is a highly compound number, which means it can be divided by a lot of other numbers.

Which means that a progression system of 12 levels can pace things out at intervals of 2, 3, 4, and 6 levels.

[Kane0]

12 is my sweet spot number too, if i were cutting down from the existing 20 then 12 would be what I choose.

[Arkhios]

Actually there is. 12 is a highly compound number, which means it can be divided by a lot of other numbers.

Which means that a progression system of 12 levels can pace things out at intervals of 2, 3, 4, and 6 levels.

That is a good point. Indeed, 12 levels is easily divided for several purposes, which may or may not include revamped proficiency bonus for example, or new "tiers of play".

[JackPhoenix]

Well, you're not wrong about 12th level. Still, 11 would feel (and is) odd as cap level.

As for the ASI, I have to admit that there's is external reason to decrease the gap between them. That said, it's true I could reward extra ASI/feats as Epic Boons or something as mentioned.

Ending things at 12 also encourages 1-level dips. You get power boost at 11, at 12, there's only the ASI (which you'd get anyway if you treated them as Epic Boons) and few HP, there's no reason not to multiclass. If you multiclass when the max is 11, you're missing out on the capstone, which, IMO, is desirable outcome.

[Theodoxus]

I picked 12 a long time ago, mostly for the symmetry GloatingSwine mentioned. 12 basically became the Music of the Sphere's number for my campaign world. 12 classes, 12 gods, 12 kingdoms... originally 12 races, but that got culled down to 1 during the first two campaigns. So, naturally, I went with 12 levels.

In the version with the least deviation from 5E (for the game has truly evolved out of the d20 realm), I didn't change the PB progress, so the game maxed out at +4. I don't think it would be detrimental to allow a +5 PB as an epic boon though. Especially since in a standard game, they'd be getting it at the next level.

The only thing I did in regards to feats was grant everyone one at 1st level. (Humans weren't a thing in my original campaign, and now the only option is Custom Lineage, so a 1st level feat being potentially problematic is moot.)

One thing you might think about doing for feats is pick a level or two (4 and/or 8 are probably the best) where the characters get both an ASI and a feat. Makes the toons feel a bit more epic without completely reworking the system.

[Arkhios]

Ending things at 12 also encourages 1-level dips. You get power boost at 11, at 12, there's only the ASI (which you'd get anyway if you treated them as Epic Boons) and few HP, there's no reason not to multiclass. If you multiclass when the max is 11, you're missing out on the capstone, which, IMO, is desirable outcome.

I have nothing against multiclassing as long as players follow the rules to the letter and keep the requirements in mind. However, I do encourage players to provide a reasonable explanation for any particular multiclass, in a way that makes sense for the character, rather than do it for mere power creep (I don't forbid it outright, but I try to make it clear it doesn't sit right with me). Luckily my players seem content with single-classed characters so this is not a big issue.

I know you didn't mean it literally, but I'd not "end things" at 12th. That's just the maximum total of class levels characters could reach. The campaign could continue from that point onward for unforeseeable future, and occasionally the PC's might encounter foes that are "outside their payroll", but those would also have bigger rewards.


I picked 12 a long time ago, mostly for the symmetry GloatingSwine mentioned. 12 basically became the Music of the Sphere's number for my campaign world. 12 classes, 12 gods, 12 kingdoms... originally 12 races, but that got culled down to 1 during the first two campaigns. So, naturally, I went with 12 levels.

In the version with the least deviation from 5E (for the game has truly evolved out of the d20 realm), I didn't change the PB progress, so the game maxed out at +4. I don't think it would be detrimental to allow a +5 PB as an epic boon though. Especially since in a standard game, they'd be getting it at the next level.

The only thing I did in regards to feats was grant everyone one at 1st level. (Humans weren't a thing in my original campaign, and now the only option is Custom Lineage, so a 1st level feat being potentially problematic is moot.)

One thing you might think about doing for feats is pick a level or two (4 and/or 8 are probably the best) where the characters get both an ASI and a feat. Makes the toons feel a bit more epic without completely reworking the system.

That is an interesting idea, indeed! Maybe include the 12th level as well. Or, maybe if I did that for the 12th level only, it would feel more of a capstone that someone would miss out on if they decide to multiclass instead.

[ZRN]

Maybe instead of adding 3 new feats, add extra single-point ASIs on all even levels (including the ones that currently get a feat/ASI), and a bonus feat at level 1?

Bonus feat at 1 we're probably all clear on - more customizability out the gate, etc.

The single-point ASIs are small enough not to feel overpowering but still obviously impactful.

[Saelethil]

Maybe instead of adding 3 new feats, add extra single-point ASIs on all even levels (including the ones that currently get a feat/ASI), and a bonus feat at level 1?

Bonus feat at 1 we're probably all clear on - more customizability out the gate, etc.

The single-point ASIs are small enough not to feel overpowering but still obviously impactful.

I was going to suggest something similar. I might add a restriction that the additional +1 gained at regular ASI levels can’t increase the total asi to +3 (so no jumping from 15 to 18). Maybe it would be fine but it feels like too much of a jump to me.

[Arkhios]

Maybe instead of adding 3 new feats, add extra single-point ASIs on all even levels (including the ones that currently get a feat/ASI), and a bonus feat at level 1?

Bonus feat at 1 we're probably all clear on - more customizability out the gate, etc.

The single-point ASIs are small enough not to feel overpowering but still obviously impactful.


I was going to suggest something similar. I might add a restriction that the additional +1 gained at regular ASI levels can’t increase the total asi to +3 (so no jumping from 15 to 18). Maybe it would be fine but it feels like too much of a jump to me.

Actually, I'm trying something like that already. This is new addition to it.

Basically what I'm doing is that at 1st level characters have their ability scores distributed by point buy or standard array. On every level starting 2nd, a character can increase ONE of their ability score by one, and at the levels when they would get an ASI normally, they instead may choose to increase an Ability Score by an additional one (stacking with the other) OR take a feat (except that in this scheme feats don't increase ability scores).

The change above would only basically add more of the "ASI levels", so it's technically possible to implement on top of it.

[Brookshw]

Anyway, I was thinking that I'd try this in my game, and reset the hard level cap to 12 instead of 20. Obviously not touching the CR system. Reasonable monsters to throw at the players would be restricted by this change.



Huh. I had no idea there was a level cap and have been generally ignoring reviews on the game so that it was fresh when I inevitably pick it up. Somehow this level cap just backstabbed my interest.

[Arkhios]

Huh. I had no idea there was a level cap and have been generally ignoring reviews on the game so that it was fresh when I inevitably pick it up. Somehow this level cap just backstabbed my interest.

I agree it's bit of a shame that BG3 cap is 12, but there are several good reasons why, and the game is still very good and has a lot of content to dig through. I wouldn't mind getting more levels to play through with an expansion or something, but I don't mind this either.