Game design thoughts - making all classes MAD

[Quietus]

First, let me state - yes, this would require a massive redesign of pretty much every class and subclass to make it work. I'm ust musing on the idea to see if it's got feet at all.

The thought is - every base class should function off of a single stat (plus con). Casters have their casting stat, martial have their attacking stat. But take any features that key off of a secondary stat, and move those into the subclass - or at least have them define by the subclass you've chosen. Paladins still get their aura, for instance, but their subclass determines what stat they use for it, so you could have a str/wis based Paladin (Redemption? Watchers?). We have some of this in the game as it is (swashbucklers, arcane tricksters, eldritch knights), the idea would be to extend that out over every class. Sure, AT/EK can take spells that don't rely on attack rolls/saves, and stay relatively SAD, but then they're limiting what they could do to focus entirely on one side of themselves, and I think that's a reasonable decision to make.

[OldTrees1]

The opening post, and title seem to contradict each other. So let's ask some clarifying questions:

1) What is the objective?

Are you trying to make each class have 3 abilities: Con + primary ability + secondary ability?
Are you trying to have the secondary ability be changed?
Are you trying to increase the number of abilities relevant to each character?
For example Rogue uses Dex+Con for combat, but has reasons to use Wis+Dex+Int out of combat.

[Damon_Tor]

I had a player who wanted a "chess master" experience playing a fighter, and was looking for a non-magic reason to invest in int. I decided to give him extra reactions based on his int mod. It worked well for what he wanted, but I'd hesitate to allow, say, a wizard to have access to the rule.

In other instances I've allowed players to impact NPC combat behavior with intimidation/deception checks made as a bonus action vs passive insight.

[Amechra]

So let's ask some clarifying questions:

It seems pretty clear to me that they're asking for a combination of your first two bullets: they want every class to use three ability scores:


Constitution, for HP.
A primary ability score determined by their class.
A secondary ability score defined by their subclass.


Personally, I question the need for Constitution - it's an almost purely passive stat that everyone wants to keep high.

[Xervous]

I’ve thought this through and in order for it to really work you need to change how ASIs work. Without increasing costs for higher and higher scores it’s still going to be a race to 20 in main stat.

[False God]

All classes should absolutely be MAD.

I don't have any great ideas for how to implement this in D&D, but MAD design is IMO, far superior to SAD.

[LudicSavant]

If I were designing the game, I would make it work like so:

- Each class has a primary attribute; a Wizard is generally going to be smart, a Sorcerer is generally going to be charismatic, etc.
- However, each secondary attribute should provide comparable value. I would endeavor to make it such that there was an interesting choice between being a suave Wizard (charisma secondary), muscle wizard (strength secondary), or precise wizard (dex secondary). And so forth for all classes.

[GeneralVryth]

I kind of like the idea of every class having a primary stat and a secondary stat controlled by subclass. Though some classes I think would have some issues offloading enough effects to the secondary stat, though I am sure there are ways you could do it (one example that just popped in to my mine, is having martials add their secondary stat to weapon damage as a standard power like extra attack, plus other minor effects).

Heck, this is already kind of true in practice but it help fill a lot of niches. Bladesingers for example already kind of have Dex as a secondary stat. Monks could be Wis primary and then have their sub-classes be Dex or Str, opening the Str unarmed fighter that is regularly missing. Champion Fighters could use Dex or Str equally, with their main stat being controlled mostly by weapon/armor choice (since in general Fighters have the option of Str or Dex as primaries). Battlemasters slot in nicely as an Int secondary. Paladins, could use Cha primary, and then let Str or Dex be the secondaries enabling both styles as a kind of inverse holy Fighter.

That said, I think the more important thing though is every stat (with maybe the exception of con) should have the same value disconnected with class, and ideally at least some value disconnected from skills (though a stat could have less non-skill value if attached to lots of skills). Right now that's clearly not the case. Con, and Dex reign supreme, Wis and Cha take the middle, and Int and Str tend to be pretty or only used if connected to a class.

[Theodoxus]

If I were designing the game, I would make it work like so:

- Each class has a primary attribute; a Wizard is generally going to be smart, a Sorcerer is generally going to be charismatic, etc.
- However, each secondary attribute should provide comparable value. I would endeavor to make it such that there was an interesting choice between being a suave Wizard (charisma secondary), muscle wizard (strength secondary), or precise wizard (dex secondary). And so forth for all classes.


I kind of like the idea of every class having a primary stat and a secondary stat controlled by subclass. Though some classes I think would have some issues offloading enough effects to the secondary stat, though I am sure there are ways you could do it (one example that just popped in to my mine, is having martials add their secondary stat to weapon damage as a standard power like extra attack, plus other minor effects).

Heck, this is already kind of true in practice but it help fill a lot of niches. Bladesingers for example already kind of have Dex as a secondary stat. Monks could be Wis primary and then have their sub-classes be Dex or Str, opening the Str unarmed fighter that is regularly missing. Champion Fighters could use Dex or Str equally, with their main stat being controlled mostly by weapon/armor choice (since in general Fighters have the option of Str or Dex as primaries). Battlemasters slot in nicely as an Int secondary. Paladins, could use Cha primary, and then let Str or Dex be the secondaries enabling both styles as a kind of inverse holy Fighter.

That said, I think the more important thing though is every stat (with maybe the exception of con) should have the same value disconnected with class, and ideally at least some value disconnected from skills (though a stat could have less non-skill value if attached to lots of skills). Right now that's clearly not the case. Con, and Dex reign supreme, Wis and Cha take the middle, and Int and Str tend to be pretty or only used if connected to a class.

I think it would be interesting to take this idea and run with it. For instance, if we start with the premise that every class wants Con, but few classes want/need Con lower than 14 or higher than 16, we could put an absolute starting Con at 15 for everyone and let ASIs and Feats handle the rest.

Then, have a couple of classes that use 1 of the other 5 stats as their primary. Fighter/Barbarian STR; Cleric/Druid: WIS; Warlock/Wizard: INT; Ranger/Rogue: DEX; Bard/Sorcerer: CHA. (Monk and Paladin can either be squeezed into Dex and Cha, or turned into subclasses, whatever). Then have 4 subclasses for each class that emphasizes the four remaining attributes not covered by Con or their primary. So, Fighter would have 4 classes: EK (Int), Chevalier/Purple Knight (Cha), Champion (Dex), Battlemaster (Wis).

Wizards might keep their 8 schools, but each school has an attribute assigned to it: Enchantment/Illusion: Cha; Abjuration/Divination: Wis; Evocation/Conjuration: Dex; Transmutation/Necromancy: Str...

I mean, they're just ideas that popped up, but I think it would work well with the concept.

[Psyren]

If I were designing the game, I would make it work like so:

- Each class has a primary attribute; a Wizard is generally going to be smart, a Sorcerer is generally going to be charismatic, etc.
- However, each secondary attribute should provide comparable value. I would endeavor to make it such that there was an interesting choice between being a suave Wizard (charisma secondary), muscle wizard (strength secondary), or precise wizard (dex secondary). And so forth for all classes.

I wouldn't mind this, so long as both primary and secondary can both be increased at a decent rate. Either each ASI would give up to +2/+2, or there would be more of them (e.g every even level) and you're forced to increase a stat you didn't pick last time or something.

[LudicSavant]

I wouldn't mind this, so long as both primary and secondary can both be increased at a decent rate. Either each ASI would give up to +2/+2, or there would be more of them (e.g every even level) and you're forced to increase a stat you didn't pick last time or something.

I would also probably remove Constitution from the game. As is, that attribute is basically just generically rewarding people who need fewer stats, and not adding much in the way of character expression (if anything, it acts as a sink for excess points so that players don't use them for character expression. Oof). Would probably roll some of its functions into Strength.

[Quietus]

The opening post, and title seem to contradict each other. So let's ask some clarifying questions:

1) What is the objective?

Are you trying to make each class have 3 abilities: Con + primary ability + secondary ability?
Are you trying to have the secondary ability be changed?
Are you trying to increase the number of abilities relevant to each character?
For example Rogue uses Dex+Con for combat, but has reasons to use Wis+Dex+Int out of combat.




It seems pretty clear to me that they're asking for a combination of your first two bullets: they want every class to use three ability scores:


Constitution, for HP.
A primary ability score determined by their class.
A secondary ability score defined by their subclass.


Personally, I question the need for Constitution - it's an almost purely passive stat that everyone wants to keep high.

This is exactly the thought experiment I'm looking at here. I do think there exists a reason to have constitution though - it creates a variance in a given character's toughness, so two different characters of the same class/subclass have another way to differentiate themselves. It also creates an interesting tension in stat allocation - do you really need those two 16's in primary/secondary? If so, are you going to be lowering con to get a better spread over the rest of your abilities, or are you going to sacrifice a little con to increase what would otherwise be dump stats?


I’ve thought this through and in order for it to really work you need to change how ASIs work. Without increasing costs for higher and higher scores it’s still going to be a race to 20 in main stat.

It's already a race to 20 in main stat. The goal here would be to make these secondary stats useful even if they aren't maxed out - and to create tension in the decision between ASIs and feats.


If I were designing the game, I would make it work like so:

- Each class has a primary attribute; a Wizard is generally going to be smart, a Sorcerer is generally going to be charismatic, etc.
- However, each secondary attribute should provide comparable value. I would endeavor to make it such that there was an interesting choice between being a suave Wizard (charisma secondary), muscle wizard (strength secondary), or precise wizard (dex secondary). And so forth for all classes.

This is precisely what I want to set up. Enchanter wizard? Definitely wants Charisma. Bladesinger likely wants dex. War or Abjuration may want Strength, and could gain armor proficiencies to use it and to emphasize the idea that they're meant to be on the battlefield.


I kind of like the idea of every class having a primary stat and a secondary stat controlled by subclass. Though some classes I think would have some issues offloading enough effects to the secondary stat, though I am sure there are ways you could do it (one example that just popped in to my mine, is having martials add their secondary stat to weapon damage as a standard power like extra attack, plus other minor effects).

Heck, this is already kind of true in practice but it help fill a lot of niches. Bladesingers for example already kind of have Dex as a secondary stat. Monks could be Wis primary and then have their sub-classes be Dex or Str, opening the Str unarmed fighter that is regularly missing. Champion Fighters could use Dex or Str equally, with their main stat being controlled mostly by weapon/armor choice (since in general Fighters have the option of Str or Dex as primaries). Battlemasters slot in nicely as an Int secondary. Paladins, could use Cha primary, and then let Str or Dex be the secondaries enabling both styles as a kind of inverse holy Fighter.

That said, I think the more important thing though is every stat (with maybe the exception of con) should have the same value disconnected with class, and ideally at least some value disconnected from skills (though a stat could have less non-skill value if attached to lots of skills). Right now that's clearly not the case. Con, and Dex reign supreme, Wis and Cha take the middle, and Int and Str tend to be pretty or only used if connected to a class.

You know, I'd been picturing monks as dex primary/wis secondary, but I REALLY like the way you've swapped that around, and I agree wholeheartedly that str monks are an empty area the game could do well to fill in. And you're right, every stat should matter, but that's going to require a larger remix even than what I'm toying with here.

[GeneralVryth]

You know, I'd been picturing monks as dex primary/wis secondary, but I REALLY like the way you've swapped that around, and I agree wholeheartedly that str monks are an empty area the game could do well to fill in. And you're right, every stat should matter, but that's going to require a larger remix even than what I'm toying with here.

I don't even think it's really that hard to balance all of the stats. it's giving them all non-skill uses that is the trick. For just balancing the stats, the question pretty easily becomes how do I make Dex weaker and Str and Int stronger?

The first simple option is make Int the contributor to Initiative instead of Dex. That kills 2 birds with one stone (3 if you care about the non-skill usages).

Str, is funny, because it actually has a lot of uses, they just get ignored/overlooked in play/theory craft. Play Solasta or BG3 and suddenly Str is quite handy with the increased carrying capacity for loot and increased jump distances giving more combat flexibility or the ability to reach otherwise unreachable places. There is probably room for more Str usefulness in a more widely usable "shove" mechanic. If there was a bonus action that let you push someone 5 feet back as some kind of Str check (I know by the rules Shove is Athletics), then suddenly it becomes useful as kind of pseudo disengage that still lets you attack (but with a risk of failure for the disengage, and the single target limitation).

That just leaves pondering non-skill uses for Wis and Cha if that is a priority. Maybe follow the path of the previous Str suggestion, and make a couple bonus actions. A Cha based one that can inflict a -1 attack penalty for a round against a target as a check, and Wis based that gives the a +1 attack until the end of their turn. Those might be too strong in a bounded accuracy world (especially with their associated skills). Not to mention slowing the game down with more rolls. On the other hand a few more default uses for the bonus action may solve some problems as well.

[Oramac]

If I were designing the game, I would make it work like so:

- Each class has a primary attribute; a Wizard is generally going to be smart, a Sorcerer is generally going to be charismatic, etc.
- However, each secondary attribute should provide comparable value. I would endeavor to make it such that there was an interesting choice between being a suave Wizard (charisma secondary), muscle wizard (strength secondary), or precise wizard (dex secondary). And so forth for all classes.


This is precisely what I want to set up. Enchanter wizard? Definitely wants Charisma. Bladesinger likely wants dex. War or Abjuration may want Strength, and could gain armor proficiencies to use it and to emphasize the idea that they're meant to be on the battlefield.

I honestly think this is an amazing idea, and I don't think it would require all that much reworking of the system to accomplish. At least, not any more than us forumites already do when we pick apart every last detail and nuance of the existing rules.

And for the record, I am so totally on board for MUSCLE WIZARD CASTS FIST!

EDIT: and some of these already sorta work. Abjuration wizard, for instance, already gains THP equal to level + Int Mod. Just change it to level + Str Mod. Boom. Done. (not really done, but you get the idea)

[Calen]

One thing I liked about 4e was that the subclasses relied on secondary stats, like you are describing here. It wold be nice to see this ported over to 5e.

Some of the stats would seem weird as a secondary but I'm sure someone could think of something. (STR Warlocks?)

I could see something like Champion fighters able to choose for STR and DEX to be either the Primary or Secondary. Or possibly that all the martial classes wouldn't use STR and DEX in their subclasses and then the choices of weapons and skills drive the choice of a Primary stat.

[Quietus]

I honestly think this is an amazing idea, and I don't think it would require all that much reworking of the system to accomplish. At least, not any more than us forumites already do when we pick apart every last detail and nuance of the existing rules.

And for the record, I am so totally on board for MUSCLE WIZARD CASTS FIST!

EDIT: and some of these already sorta work. Abjuration wizard, for instance, already gains THP equal to level + Int Mod. Just change it to level + Str Mod. Boom. Done. (not really done, but you get the idea)

I'm on board with that. Give them heavy armor proficiency, and key some subclass stuff off Str. The ward is an easy one early game, later you can add Str to their dispel/counterspell attempts and the like. Literally blocking spells!


One thing I liked about 4e was that the subclasses relied on secondary stats, like you are describing here. It wold be nice to see this ported over to 5e.

Some of the stats would seem weird as a secondary but I'm sure someone could think of something. (STR Warlocks?)

I could see something like Champion fighters able to choose for STR and DEX to be either the Primary or Secondary. Or possibly that all the martial classes wouldn't use STR and DEX in their subclasses and then the choices of weapons and skills drive the choice of a Primary stat.

There's some weird ones. Warlocks I'd probably key based on their pact rather than their subclass. Bladelocks either str/dex (probably dex, and keep them in medium armor). Tome would get int. Chain, not entirely certain. I want to go Wis, but I can't quite decide. Of course you can still keep the stat linked to the subclass, and just accept there'll be optimal combinations (hexblade -> str/dex -> blade pact optimal, for instance). And I do think there'd be cases where allowing the player to choose between stats would work, lots of fighters would work well for that.

[Amechra]

Random thought: instead of having a set proficiency bonus, being proficient in something lets you add another ability score to that roll. You're proficient in Athletics? Str+Con. You're attacking with a weapon you're proficient in? Str+Dex if it's melee, Dex+Wis at range. Intimidate checks? Str+Cha.

A simpler alternative would be to just turn proficiency into an ability score - it'd be kinda funny if the proficiency rules were just "add +Con to any relevant checks", with classes getting more abilities like Bardic Inspiration (where the number of uses is defined by your Charisma) to compensate.

[LudicSavant]

Random thought: instead of having a set proficiency bonus, being proficient in something lets you add another ability score to that roll. You're proficient in Athletics? Str+Con. You're attacking with a weapon you're proficient in? Str+Dex if it's melee, Dex+Wis at range. Intimidate checks? Str+Cha. Many systems already do this, incidentally.

[Goobahfish]

Personally, I question the need for Constitution - it's an almost purely passive stat that everyone wants to keep high.

Here here.


I don't even think it's really that hard to balance all of the stats. it's giving them all non-skill uses that is the trick. For just balancing the stats, the question pretty easily becomes how do I make Dex weaker and Str and Int stronger?

IMO the goal should be to make all classes 6-stat MAD.


Random thought: instead of having a set proficiency bonus, being proficient in something lets you add another ability score to that roll. You're proficient in Athletics? Str+Con. You're attacking with a weapon you're proficient in? Str+Dex if it's melee, Dex+Wis at range. Intimidate checks? Str+Cha.

This is interesting as long as there is enough variety to make various combinations available and the player can't explicitly choose (otherwise it is all Int/Con).

*****

Having made an RPG, I did spend ages thinking about stats. In D&D you have mostly 2-stat classes (Main/CON) or 3-stat classes (Main/DEX/CON). Most stats are actually 'generically' useless (Str, Int, Wis, Cha) in so far as they only come into play when the game gets 'weird' OR if they are something to do with your class (i.e. active). If you are fighting a Goblin, which seems to be what this game usually emphasizes, DEX/CON is really the only generically relevant aspect of the game (i.e. passive relevance). DEX also gives initiative. The 'third laggard' is WIS because of Perception checks (which are kinda passive).

So, one of the easiest fixes would be to shift the game towards a more 'weird' default. Have Int/Wis etc saves become WAAAY more prevalent for example. Int for initiative is another (somewhat unsatisfying) change.

The alternative is as the OP pointed out a lot more work.

In my RPG, I have:
Strength, Dexterity, Fervour, Intellect, Fortitude, Agility, Mettle, Wit
Strength and Fortitude, both influence HP.
Strength, Dex & Agility influence AC (Dex/Ag vs Weapon attacks and Str/Ag vs grapple/shove/trip etc)
Mettle => Morale (this is a real part of the game)
Intellect => # Techniques (think prepared spells)
Wit => Perception & Initiative
Fervour => Magic item limits

So, the idea is that no stat is truly a 'dump stat' because each stat passively (rather than actively) influences every character. Lots of players have dumped Int only to be annoyed they only have a few tricks or Wit and just get surprised all the time etc. But the idea is that 6 should hurt and not just because you "can't make Arcana checks".

In D&D, there are basically 2.5 passive stats and the rest are active (i.e., only relevant for attacking). Unless they are made more 'passive' (i.e., affect all characters regularly) the MAD/SAD issue is going to remain.

***

As for stat increases. I think having it be +1/+1 every 4 levels but you can't choose the same stat (i.e., no +2) might go a long way to making the game more playable. One other thing I did in my game is to have scaling maximums.

I.e., a bit like... 18 max until level 8, 20 max until level 19. 22 max at level 19+ etc.

[Arkhios]

Wild take: separate hit points from Constitution and give Constitution some new purpose altogether: Make Constitution more equal in respect to other scores in terms of checks, throws, and rolls.

[Quietus]

Random thought: instead of having a set proficiency bonus, being proficient in something lets you add another ability score to that roll. You're proficient in Athletics? Str+Con. You're attacking with a weapon you're proficient in? Str+Dex if it's melee, Dex+Wis at range. Intimidate checks? Str+Cha.

A simpler alternative would be to just turn proficiency into an ability score - it'd be kinda funny if the proficiency rules were just "add +Con to any relevant checks", with classes getting more abilities like Bardic Inspiration (where the number of uses is defined by your Charisma) to compensate.

I do like that idea, but I think you'd have to have set secondary stats that can be used, otherwise you'll have everyone trying to justify why they're using math to calculate the arc of their arrow (dex+int for ranged attacks) and also why they're using geologic trivia to climb (str+int athletics) on their wizard. Unless you just embrace that, I guess.


Wild take: separate hit points from Constitution and give Constitution some new purpose altogether: Make Constitution more equal in respect to other scores in terms of checks, throws, and rolls.

More excuses to test a character's stamina wouldn't be the worst!

[Tanarii]

I'd rather they put some real thought into which classes should have high hit points and which shouldn't. And then build the first as MAD with primary + Con, and the second and MAD with primary + secondary.

Either that or eliminate Con, pump up the HPs on the warrior type classes, and then go with the idea of every class has primary + subclass uses secondary.

Paladins, StrClerics, Monks, and especially StRangers and VBards, having relatively low hit points for what you'd expect them to have while Wizards and Sorcs have fairly high hit points compared to what you'd expect is fairly silly design. But that's what the system encourages now.

[Oramac]

Random thought: instead of having a set proficiency bonus, being proficient in something lets you add another ability score to that roll. You're proficient in Athletics? Str+Con. You're attacking with a weapon you're proficient in? Str+Dex if it's melee, Dex+Wis at range. Intimidate checks? Str+Cha.

Check out Fabula Ultima. It essentially uses exactly that system. As do many others, I'm sure, but that's the one I'm familiar with.

[LudicSavant]

Check out Fabula Ultima. It essentially uses exactly that system. As do many others, I'm sure, but that's the one I'm familiar with.

I second this recommendation. Also, good to see a fellow FabU fan! :smallbiggrin:

[Amechra]

Many systems already do this, incidentally.

I dunno if I'd say many, honestly - I can think of a few, but Stat+Stat is way less common than Stat+Skill or just plain not using derived numbers for rolls. That said, I might need to actually read FabU at some point, instead of looking at it, going "Another JRPG-inspired RPG? Eh.", and putting it down...

(I was thinking of Ironclaw and other games built on the Cardinal system, mostly. Which have an interesting quirk where your "level" is actually just another stat...)

I've been an indie game nerd for over a decade, though I kinda fell off following the cutting edge in... 2019 or so? Half the time when I go "random thought" or whatever, I'm just suggesting a mechanic from a game that already exists. And the other half of the time it's probably still from a game that actually exists, and I just don't remember which one. :p

[Theodoxus]

Wild take: separate hit points from Constitution and give Constitution some new purpose altogether: Make Constitution more equal in respect to other scores in terms of checks, throws, and rolls.

I did this, essentially. Pushing 5 skills onto Constitution, and HP use Con as part of the formula, but not completely.

I also put weapon groups as skills, and then made skills independent of a singular PB system, but each as their own tract. So you could conceivably be +4 with Swords and +2 with Performance at the same time.

Increasing proficiency in a single skill requires both a successful roll, and a separate roll of a 6 on a d6. (it's built around a 3d6 AGE type system, but works well enough with a d20 system, just rolling an extra d6 on each attempt.) Every 6 times you get a 6 on the bonus die, your PB increases by 1 to a max of +6. Allows for gaining proficiency in untrained skills as well, practice makes perfect et al.

I also have 12 attributes, and 5 skills for each attribute, so 60 skills in total makes for a lot of unique character development.

[Amechra]

I do like that idea, but I think you'd have to have set secondary stats that can be used, otherwise you'll have everyone trying to justify why they're using math to calculate the arc of their arrow (dex+int for ranged attacks) and also why they're using geologic trivia to climb (str+int athletics) on their wizard. Unless you just embrace that, I guess.

Set secondary stats would be the idea, yeah, though what secondary stat gets used might vary from class to class.


Either that or eliminate Con, pump up the HPs on the warrior type classes, and then go with the idea of every class has primary + subclass uses secondary.

Warriors get max HP instead of rolling each level. Done - where's my Nobel Prize for Game Design?

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I'll fully agree with the OP. So many more build options are open if classes are, to some extent, dependent on more than one ability. We've had a lot of Paladins in our group, and every one was mechanically distinct. In part this is due to the number of good subclasses, but it is also due to some meaningful decisions players needed to make as they leveled. Some were more Attack stat focused (one was Dex based), some were more Cha based, and some focused more on Feats. Also, Divine Smite tends to support fighting styles that don't require the power attack, so you've got a lot of combinations to play with.

Despite it being a part of the game I've played for 40 years, I'd also agree with LudicSavant in that Constitution can probably go at this point. Most groups are using some sort of point buy now. It's mostly a stick to hit players who build innovative MAD characters. I've seen about 80% of characters with 14s, 10% with 16s+, and 10% with 12s. Sometimes people pick an odd stat and round it out with Resilient Con. It doesn't add much.

[stoutstien]

One odd side tangent is the fact that increasing one stat over and over should have some sort of diminishing return before you maxed it. They realized it in point buy at PC creation but then forgot.

Having a reward for being more diverse is fine but you really need a stick somewhere in there as well.

[Amechra]

One odd side tangent is the fact that increasing one stat over and over should have some sort of diminishing return before you maxed it. They realized it in point buy at PC creation but then forgot.

The simplest way to handle this would be to make it so the "+2 to an ability score" option for ASIs only worked on ability scores that are less than 15. You want to improve a stat that's higher than that? You get a +1 to that ability score and a +1 to another.

Something that would work really well with that would be to add more stuff like Heavy Armor that cares about you hitting an ability score threshold instead of adding your ability score modifier to things. If you get most of the reward for having a good score in [blank] by just having a 15 in it, you aren't going to have much of an incentive to race to 20.

[noob]

Currently there is two stats most should care about.
1: Con because not only it increases hit points but it is one of the most important saves in terms of what it protects against and the frequency of con saves, finally it is used for concentration checks.
2: Dex raises initiative and armour class for most characters, it also is a frequent save and even if the effect of a success in a dex save is often reduced damage taken, it still adds up because dex saves are common. A lot of characters can rely solely on dex for offense, for example a fighter is a character that can rely only on its dex and con scores, finally dex helps some very useful checks.

The other stat I would really care about outside of those two is wisdom, the skills associated with wisdom are very useful and what wisdom protects you against can be some of the most lethal effects: mind controlling effects that not only makes you stop being able to help the team but also can make you fight the team, it can literally be better for the opponent to mind control you than kill you.
If you can not rely on others to protect you from your weaknesses, you can not really live without con and wisdom.
If you main stat is anything else than con, dex or wisdom, you are in fact mad.
Ironically paladin is less mad that some other classes if you can reach above level 6 because then, low wisdom can be compensated by high charisma.
The only stats that are natively less useful than the three I mentioned are int, charisma and str, while they can participate in useful skill checks, you do not need multiple high int or charisma characters and str is just a weaker dex stat that does not boosts initiative, I do think all those stats needs to do more useful stuff outside of being solely stats for classes and skills.
I also think finesse weapons and ranged weapons using dex are just unbalancing the game in favor of dex and that all weapons should use strength for damage and attack rolls, with that change, only wisdom based characters would be sad which would then be just possible to fix by making them get some charisma, int or str based class features to encourage them to diversify.