The one minute short rest and how does it affect balance

[clash]

So I'm going to approach this topic from a question of rebalancing classes. Right now I would rank classes from strongest to weakest probably something like this:

1: Wizard, Bard, Druid, paladin
2: cleric, fighter
3: rogue, warlock, sorcerer, Monk
4: barbarian, ranger

Not looking at tiers or anything just overall power and effectiveness. Maybe you agree or maybe you don't. My question is what would this look like if short rests were only a minute long?

What classes would it affect? Would it boost theor overall strength and balance? Wood it make any of them stronger then the ones at the top of the list?

[noob]

So I'm going to approach this topic from a question of rebalancing classes. Right now I would rank classes from strongest to weakest probably something like this:

1: Wizard, Bard, Druid, paladin
2: cleric, fighter
3: rogue, warlock, sorcerer, Monk
4: barbarian, ranger

Not looking at tiers or anything just overall power and effectiveness. Maybe you agree or maybe you don't. My question is what would this look like if short rests were only a minute long?

What classes would it affect? Would it boost theor overall strength and balance? Wood it make any of them stronger then the ones at the top of the list?

I guess the effect is that up to level 12 wizards would be able to replace their long rests by less than 30 minutes of short resting(at level 1, it is really short, at level 12, it starts getting long)
You could probably make so that arcane recovery can only be reused once you spent the latest spell slots you got from arcane recovery to prevent that unless you want a team with a mark of healing halfling wizard and a bunch of short rest characters to essentially fill themselves with resources entirely (except hit dice but you can still get hp) 10 times a day to do the equivalent of 10 adventuring days in one day.
Sadly the barbarian and rangers are not the ones who would benefit the most from shorter rests, it is likely the monk and warlock that benefits from it the most.
Rogues are basically a rest less class, as long as you can funnel healing between encounters a rogue can go forever, they do not care much about short rests either.
The fighter would be really happy.

[JNAProductions]

I guess the effect is that up to level 12 wizards would be able to replace their long rests by less than 30 minutes of short resting(at level 1, it is really short, at level 12, it starts getting long)
You could probably make so that arcane recovery can only be reused once you spent the latest spell slots you got from arcane recovery to prevent that unless you want a team with a mark of healing halfling wizard and a bunch of short rest characters to essentially fill themselves with resources entirely (except hit dice but you can still get hp) 10 times a day to do the equivalent of 10 adventuring days in one day.
Sadly the barbarian and rangers are not the ones who would benefit the most from shorter rests, it is likely the monk and warlock that benefits from it the most.
Rogues are basically a rest less class, as long as you can funnel healing between encounters a rogue can go forever, they do not care much about short rests either.
The fighter would be really happy.

Arcane Recovery is once per day. You do it on a short rest, but it's not EVERY short rest.

[noob]

Arcane Recovery is once per day. You do it on a short rest, but it's not EVERY short rest.

Solves the problem then.

[Kane0]

*maniacal warlock laughter*

Fighters and monks would also have a great time (HP recovery ceases to be a concern for them amongst other things), plus druids/clerics/paladins with especially interesting wildshape/channel powers. Sorcerers with a bloodwell vial too.

Bards would like the inspiration and song of rest would be considerably better

Basically, barb and ranger stay at the bottom while everyone else shuffles around a bit and the gap widens

[Skrum]

In the "average" game, warlock would absolutely come out the best. They'd essentially be able to spam top-level spells in every combat. Fighter and monk would be feeling great as well, but they don't have any abilities that are as singularly impactful as spells. This is assuming of course that you have several combats per long rest - the less combats, and the less the change makes at all. In that environment, I'd probably bump warlock up above the paladin but still worse than the top 3, fighter up to roughly the paladin, and monk below paladin. I'd like to note that I think you are *hard* underrating cleric and sorcerer (they are absolutely better than paladin, for example), but that's another topic.

I think in a deadly+ game, warlocks would still prove to be somewhat dysfunctional - or at least, a total glass cannon. Being able to spam fireball, hypnotic pattern, sickening radiance, and summon undead is all well and good, but in a very deadly game defense matters a lot. And warlocks have essentially no defense and no spells slots with which to defend themselves. In that kind of game, I think the monk and fighter end up being the more complete, functional classes. They won't reach the heights that a warlock will at the lock's best, but they won't get counterspelled twice and be utterly useless either.

[Kane0]

Tomb of Levistus is on a short rest recharge

[Theodoxus]

And warlocks have essentially no defense and no spells slots with which to defend themselves. In that kind of game, I think the monk and fighter end up being the more complete, functional classes. They won't reach the heights that a warlock will at the lock's best, but they won't get counterspelled twice and be utterly useless either.

Depends on what the encounter is, and what environmental factors, and party composition.

Vs non-range having ground based opponents? Warlock 5th level Fly is getting 3 folks up in the air. (And hopefully others in the party can use similar tactics.)
Vs ranged non-spell casters, Darkness / EB spam with devil's sight is very effective defensively. Let the tanks run around getting the potshots (or sitting in the middle of the dark, having a beer - meh).

I don't think Warlocks are ever utterly useless when out of spells. Boring and repetitive, sure, but they're either pushing and pulling folks around the battlefield with modified EBs, or dashing around slicing and dicing with (Hex)Blades. One trick ponies for sure, but it is definitely NOT a useless (utterly or otherwise) trick.

[Chronos]

Quoth Skrum:

I think in a deadly+ game, warlocks would still prove to be somewhat dysfunctional - or at least, a total glass cannon. Being able to spam fireball, hypnotic pattern, sickening radiance, and summon undead is all well and good, but in a very deadly game defense matters a lot. And warlocks have essentially no defense and no spells slots with which to defend themselves.
At the very least, they'll start every combat with 30 Armor of Agathys HP (and all their spell slots, since they'll just rest again right after casting). And HP are a very reliable defense.

For a different approach, my group houserules that short rests only take a minute or so, but you're only allowed to take two per long rest. This maintains the intended balance, but frees you from situations where spending an hour without wandering monsters isn't realistic.

[clash]

At the very least, they'll start every combat with 30 Armor of Agathys HP (and all their spell slots, since they'll just rest again right after casting). And HP are a very reliable defense.

For a different approach, my group houserules that short rests only take a minute or so, but you're only allowed to take two per long rest. This maintains the intended balance, but frees you from situations where spending an hour without wandering monsters isn't realistic.

The spamming potential could be controlled with a rule that of you regain a short rest resource like a spell slot it ends any ongoing affect of the spell slot, that may have unintended affects on longer duration spells though

[stoutstien]

Balance wouldn't shift because it's one ability to transfer resources into a few actions vs not that cause the gaps not the total pool and their refilling patterns.

[Mastikator]

Limit short rests to twice per long rest and you'll be golden IMO. It should fix the short/long rest discrepancy between the classes.

However allowing unlimited short rests on a day would enable some very egregious shenanigans like using second wind to always be at full HP, a fighter would be completely tireless. And a warlock that happens to have healing magic (by multiclassing into divine soul or bard for example) could fully heal the entire party in matter of minutes. The best way to challenge and threaten a party is to attrition their resources before the dungeon-end-boss (otherwise you risk very swingy, unsatisfying fights).

[Witty Username]

I think in the case of monks people already assume a similar play pattern of short resting between every encounter.

I would say warlock bears watching, as it is already decent in low short rest environments. I am not sure if it is too much, but that may need some playtesting.

Fighter is probably in a fine spot either way. They get a nice spike every short rest but it is short lived, I think it may make combats slightly shorter but more active.

[Snowbluff]

It doesn't; I fundamentally disagree with the premise. In general, when you have time to rest is up to the DM. When you don't have time to rest is also up to the DM. The only functional amount of time for a short rest is whatever the DM thinks is correct for their reality and narrative. This is why there are variant resting options in the text. A better framing might be "1/encounter short rest," assuming that is your intention.

I will say that ranger is generally better than barbarian, rogue, fighter. Fighter has more DPR but often doesn't contribute much else. Ironically, none of the classes at the bottom would be affected by resting one way or another. Barbarian Rogue and Ranger are generally the odd ducks out when it comes to short resting mechanics, but also this means they don't really improve with more short rests.

[diplomancer]

Celestial Warlock becomes the best class by far, except in a 5-min adventuring day group.

[Danielqueue1]

Even though the DM does set the pace of the adventure, there are things with specific durations. One minute short rests result in characters being able to take short rests entirely within the duration of abilities, spells and other effects. A cleric could cast sanctuary on someone and they could complete a short rest on the same turn it wears off for example.

Casting a spell as a ritual takes 10 additional minutes, meaning characters would be able to take multiple short rests while waiting for the spell to be cast.

For example, a party of level 11 adventures have been going through a dungeon. It has been difficult so they don't want to waste resources. The wizard decides to ritual cast Detect Magic. In the time it takes for the wizard to cast the spell, let alone be able to use its effects to find anything magical, the rest of the party would have time to do the following:

The fighter would be able to use Second Wind 9 times, healing himself for 9D10+99 health, while still recovering a 10th Second Wind for use later. Odds are this is more health then the fighter has, so they probably will use whatever time they don't need doing something else.

The bard would be able to do similar with Song of Rest, but to a lesser degree, for the whole party. As long as those party members aren't busy doing something else.

A character built specifically to take advantage of one minute short rests, for example: a Celestial Warlock Devine Soul Sorcerer multi-class would be able to short rest, use the spell slots they recovered to cast Armor of Agathys on themselves and Aid on 3 party members, short rest again, cast Aid on any other party members; short rest again- use Animate Dead on the enemies they just killed before taking the rest, short rest again- and still have time left over for anything else they wanted to do.

This proposed change would definitely affect balance. A DM wanting to reduce that effect would have to apply additional rule changes, such as the previously mentioned restricting the maximum number of short rests per long rests. A DM who tries to prevent those changes by controlling the pacing, would also have to make changes to many other affects, such as Ritual Casting or their players will find they will never be able to use things like Ritual Casting because an encounter that interrupts a one minute short rest will definitely interrupt a 10 minute Ritual Casting. A DM who wants these changes however, would likely be in for an exciting game, unless their players choose exclusively long rest classes.

[clash]

The warlock issues are mostly solved by my suggested rule I think, a spell effect ends of you regain the slot used to cast it.

The biggest issues that I'm seeing suggested above is anything with healing. Abby class that can get healing on a short rest basically can get everyone maxed out between combats with no resources expended.

Something interesting to think about.

[Justin Sane]

Even though the DM does set the pace of the adventureFull agree here. Rest time is a narrative constraint, and nothing stops the DM from adjusting rest times based on circumstances ("no, camping out on the Forest of Doom while it is on fire does not count as a rest, no matter how long you stay in it" vs "you find a magical glen in the Woods of Peace, feel free to stop for a few minutes and top everything up").
there are things with specific durations. One minute short rests result in characters being able to take short rests entirely within the duration of abilities, spells and other effects. A cleric could cast sanctuary on someone and they could complete a short rest on the same turn it wears off for example.

Casting a spell as a ritual takes 10 additional minutes, meaning characters would be able to take multiple short rests while waiting for the spell to be cast.

For example, a party of level 11 adventures have been going through a dungeon. It has been difficult so they don't want to waste resources. The wizard decides to ritual cast Detect Magic. In the time it takes for the wizard to cast the spell, let alone be able to use its effects to find anything magical, the rest of the party would have time to do the following:

The fighter would be able to use Second Wind 9 times, healing himself for 9D10+99 health, while still recovering a 10th Second Wind for use later. Odds are this is more health then the fighter has, so they probably will use whatever time they don't need doing something else.

The bard would be able to do similar with Song of Rest, but to a lesser degree, for the whole party. As long as those party members aren't busy doing something else.

A character built specifically to take advantage of one minute short rests, for example: a Celestial Warlock Devine Soul Sorcerer multi-class would be able to short rest, use the spell slots they recovered to cast Armor of Agathys on themselves and Aid on 3 party members, short rest again, cast Aid on any other party members; short rest again- use Animate Dead on the enemies they just killed before taking the rest, short rest again- and still have time left over for anything else they wanted to do.

This proposed change would definitely affect balance. A DM wanting to reduce that effect would have to apply additional rule changes, such as the previously mentioned restricting the maximum number of short rests per long rests. A DM who tries to prevent those changes by controlling the pacing, would also have to make changes to many other affects, such as Ritual Casting or their players will find they will never be able to use things like Ritual Casting because an encounter that interrupts a one minute short rest will definitely interrupt a 10 minute Ritual Casting. A DM who wants these changes however, would likely be in for an exciting game, unless their players choose exclusively long rest classes.I don't know about you, but if a player tried that at my table, they'd have them book thrown at them - by the DM and the other players.

[LudicSavant]

So I'm going to approach this topic from a question of rebalancing classes. Right now I would rank classes from strongest to weakest probably something like this:

1: Wizard, Bard, Druid, paladin
2: cleric, fighter
3: rogue, warlock, sorcerer, Monk
4: barbarian, ranger

Not looking at tiers or anything just overall power and effectiveness. Maybe you agree or maybe you don't. My question is what would this look like if short rests were only a minute long?

What classes would it affect? Would it boost theor overall strength and balance? Wood it make any of them stronger then the ones at the top of the list?

In order to balance a 1 minute short rest, you'd probably want something like BG3's 2-short-rest-per-long limit.

[DarknessEternal]

It would be better to require some number of encounters* before allowing shortened short rests X times per day. Otherwise your asking people to predict the future and players are bad at that. They'll either never use their tiny rests because they're too good to use, or they'll use them too soon.

*D&D encounters as defined by the DMG which is not exclusively combat.

[sithlordnergal]

So I'm going to approach this topic from a question of rebalancing classes. Right now I would rank classes from strongest to weakest probably something like this:

1: Wizard, Bard, Druid, paladin
2: cleric, fighter
3: rogue, warlock, sorcerer, Monk
4: barbarian, ranger

Not looking at tiers or anything just overall power and effectiveness. Maybe you agree or maybe you don't. My question is what would this look like if short rests were only a minute long?

What classes would it affect? Would it boost theor overall strength and balance? Wood it make any of them stronger then the ones at the top of the list?

I think you'd need to make a new list. With 1-minute short rests I think you'd you'd see:

S: Druid, Bard
A: Cleric, Wizard, Paladin, Fighter, Monk
B: Warlock, Rogue
C: Sorcerer, Barbarian
D: Ranger


To break that list down further:

Druids and Bards are now the strongest classes in the game, bar none. Wild Shape and Bardic Inspiration are insanely strong, and refresh on Short Rests. Mix that with their spells and class abilities and they are exceptionally powerful. I fear the Moon Druid that refreshes their Wild Shapes in 1 minute.


Wizards aren't really affected by this. Sure, they have easier access to Arcane Recovery, but that's once per day. Paladins see a slight jump in power because they have an easier time recharging their Channel Divinity. But Paladin's channel divinity ranges from being OP, like with Redemption and Vengeance, to borderline useless, like Ancients and Glory.


Clerics, Fighters, and Monks see a huge jump in power. Clerics can now use their Channel Divinity practically at will, and very few Cleric's have a bad Channel Divinity. On the Fighter side, expect to see Action Surge used at least once per encounter, and heaven help you if you have a Battlemaster. Finally, the Monk can spend Ki Points with abandon. You be see Flurry of Blows and Stunning Strike every single round.


Rogues aren't really changed by this. They don't really have many resources that to spend, outside of some subclass features. Surprisingly enough, Warlocks only see a minor boost. Yes, they can refresh their spell slots easier, but their core issue is a lack of resources during an encounter until level 11. You can make a Short Rest 1 minute, but that won't help the fact that they only have 2 spell slots until level 11. It does help with a few invocations, but a lot of their invocations are either passive, or they grant At-Will abilities.


The rest remain unchanged. I just feel Barbarians are better off than Ranger.

[Chronos]

Hard disagree with that. Bardic inspiration is already more limited by 1 bonus action per turn than it is by number of uses. And druids can already spend all day in wildshape: More uses just lets them change forms more often.

Meanwhile, warlocks are going from "maybe use one spell slot in an encounter, if there aren't too many encounters" to "use two spell slots in every encounter". They'll still be reduced to Eldritch Blasts in the third and subsequent rounds, but that's usually just mop-up anyway.

Fighters (especially battlemasters) and monks do definitely benefit a lot, though.

[sithlordnergal]

Hard disagree with that. Bardic inspiration is already more limited by 1 bonus action per turn than it is by number of uses. And druids can already spend all day in wildshape: More uses just lets them change forms more often.

Meanwhile, warlocks are going from "maybe use one spell slot in an encounter, if there aren't too many encounters" to "use two spell slots in every encounter". They'll still be reduced to Eldritch Blasts in the third and subsequent rounds, but that's usually just mop-up anyway.

Fighters (especially battlemasters) and monks do definitely benefit a lot, though.

I tend to find Bardic Inspiration is more limited by the number of uses. Its an insanely strong buff for allies, and just about every Bard has some special way to use it. Be it Cutting Words with the Lore Bard, a mini-Smite or AC boost with Swords, or a pseudo-Sneak Attack with Whispers. The current hour long puts a limit on how many you have over the course of an adventuring day. By making it 1 minute, you can now have that pseudo-Sneak Attack every hit.

As for Druids, yes they can spend all day in wild shape. But wild shape's power comes from the ability to instantly change to a creature that better suits the situation. Meaning more uses does equal more power. And you don't even need to be a moon druid to benefit from it. Utility Wild Shapes are very much a thing, and always having two Wild Shapes available is insanely handy for utility. Basically, you're taking the Unlimited Wild Shapes from Archdruid, and giving it to them at level 1.

Yeah, Warlocks do get to use two spells per encounter, but I think their issue is still more due to a lack of resources during an encounter. Most encounters I've seen go well past 3 rounds, and its anything but mop-up. But that may just be me.

[diplomancer]

Hard disagree with that. Bardic inspiration is already more limited by 1 bonus action per turn than it is by number of uses. And druids can already spend all day in wildshape: More uses just lets them change forms more often.

Meanwhile, warlocks are going from "maybe use one spell slot in an encounter, if there aren't too many encounters" to "use two spell slots in every encounter". They'll still be reduced to Eldritch Blasts in the third and subsequent rounds, but that's usually just mop-up anyway.

Fighters (especially battlemasters) and monks do definitely benefit a lot, though.

This. Not to mention long duration buffs for Warlocks. Gift of Alacrity for the entire party with Fey-Touched, on; Armor of Agathys, on. Summoned creature, on. If Celestial Warlock, all the party at full hit points all the time. Dao Warlock and Stone Shape makes a tunnel through a dungeon bypassing all obstacles you want to bypass (Bonus points if you're using your invisible familiar to map out the place first). Dao Warlock and Wall of Stone and you build a castle in a few hours. Undead Warlock gives the entire party Death Ward and False Life. And this is before multiclassing shennanigans (I'm not even talking Coffeelock... just scouting other spell lists for low level, long-duration, non-concentration buffs).

[LudicSavant]

Hard disagree with that. Bardic inspiration is already more limited by 1 bonus action per turn than it is by number of uses.

There are full-party pre-cast BIs to consider.

But yeah, Warlocks would be stronk.