What Are the Least Painful Ways of Gaining Whirlwind Attack?

[Maat Mons]

For reference, Whirlwind Attack requires:

Dex 13
Int 13
Combat Expertise
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Base attack bonus +4



Ranger has a Divine Combat Style that gives Whirlwind Attack as a bonus feat at 6th level without needing to meet the prerequisites. This is easy on your feats and ability scores, but I was hoping for something that doesn’t eat up 6 class levels.

The Underhanded Combat Style for Ranger gives Combat Expertise as a bonus feat. It also lets you ignore the Int 13 prerequisite not just for Combat Expertise itself, but also any feat that has Combat Expertise as a prerequisite.

One level in Brawler lets you count as having Int 13.

The Artful Dodger feat lets you use Int instead of Dex to qualify for Combat feats. It also counts as Dodge for prerequisites.

The Spearfighter archetype for Fighter gives Dodge as a bonus feat at 1st level, on top of the bonus feat Fighters already get.

Defended Movement counts as both Dodge and Mobility for the purposes of feats that have Dodge and Mobility as prerequisites.

Armor Training lets you ignore the Shield Focus prerequisite on all Shield Mastery feats, which includes Defended Movement.



Is there anything else I’ve missed?

This train of thought was sparked by an attempt at building an Ogre with Whirlwind Attack. But I’d also be interested to hear about the general case.

[Seerow]

With 3PP, using the Associated Feat rules from Spheres of Might, the Mobile Striker talent qualifies as Spring attack plus its prereqs (so Dodge, Mobility, 13 Dex, BAB+4). Versatile Fighter qualifies as Combat Expertise plus its prereqs (Int 13)... so a custom martial tradition of:


Custom Tradition: Versatile Skirmisher
Equipment: Any one (Discipline) Talent
Equipment: Versatile Fighter
Athletics (Run Package)
Athletics: Mobile Striker

now qualifies to take Whirlwind attack as their first level feat. Any character with martial weapon proficiency or proficiency with at least one exotic weapon can get the martial tradition by trading in their proficiencies...

[Kurald Galain]

Is there anything else I’ve missed?

Yes actually. A nice way to improve Whirlwind Attack is by boosting your reach, meaning you should consider the Lunge feat (+5' reach), any reach weapon (duh) and a way of enlarging yourself (ogres are humanoids, so are valid for Enlarge Person). If you can fit in one level of cleric or inquisitor or druid, go for the Growth domain.

[Maat Mons]

Is “Spheres of PoW” a portmanteau of Spheres of Power and Path of War (PoW)? I’ve been meaning to get my head around both of those systems at some point. I keep putting it off though.

As long as I’m using Artful Dodger to eliminate Dexterity prerequisites, I guess getting Enlarged doesn’t cause any problems. That’s a good option in the general case. For the ogre specifically, I’m looking to keep things nonmagical.

Lunge looks pretty awesome. If you’re wielding a reach weapon, do you add the 5 feet of reach before or after doubling your reach? For the ogre, I’ll either need to bump the CR up by 1 from what I was currently tinkering with, or I’ll have to give up on circumventing the Dexterity prerequisites.

For reference, here’s the ogre build, as it stood last night:

Humanoid HD 4 / Brawler 2 / Fighter 2

HD1: Power Attack (not required for Whirlwind Attack, but I want it)
HD3: ???
HD5: Artful Dodger
Br2: Mobility
HD7: Combat Expertise
F1: Spring Attack
F2: Whirlwind Attack

CR 7, no Int or Dex needed

[Darg]

You could skip the int and combat expertise requirements with 1 level kinetic knight. It would also allow access to an on demand touch attack.

[Akal Saris]

It's not any less painful, but if you don't want to play a ranger, you could also play a Slayer 6 or a Nature Fang Druid 6 and take the slayer talent that gets you a ranger combat style feat.

Druid in particular opens up a lot of tactical options - for example, using battlefield control spells to get enemies to group up, and then surprising them with whirlwind attack. While the archetype loses wild shape, vermin shape II gives access to large forms, or you could just use a reach weapon.

[Seerow]

Is “Spheres of PoW” a portmanteau of Spheres of Power and Path of War (PoW)? I’ve been meaning to get my head around both of those systems at some point. I keep putting it off though.

My mistake, it was intended to be Spheres of Might, I am not sure if I mistyped that or had some weird auto correct from phone. Probably a mistype because I've been playing a little more with PoW personally recently and it was on my mind.

[Maat Mons]

I didn’t know about Kinetic Knight. An ability score bypass and a bonus feat for a single level could let everything be squeezed in earlier. It’s weird to find myself saying something positive about Kineticist.

That’s a good point about Slayer and Nature Fang Druid. Sarenrae seems a perfectly fitting deity for a Druid. I might have to make that a future character. Is there a way for a Druid to gain proficiency with a reach weapon without spending a feat or, worse, losing a caster level?

Having spent a bunch of time fiddling with Whirling Ogre builds, I’m now finding myself annoyed at how much more easily the pieces fall into place with a Werebear, Weretiger, or Ice Troll.

[Darg]

It’s weird to find myself saying something positive about Kineticist.

I think kineticist is great. It's their options that aren't so great. Their archetypes are purely punishment disguised as sidegrades and wild talents definitely leave a lot to be desired, both in power and variety per element. Then again, it would be quite fair to say that wizard is terrible if their spell list was terrible.

[Paragon]

Is there anything else I’ve missed?

This train of thought was sparked by an attempt at building an Ogre with Whirlwind Attack. But I’d also be interested to hear about the general case.

Ogre Binder with Improved Binding can use Whirlwind Attack, bypassing all prereqs, by binding Paimon at Binder 3.

[Maat Mons]

I decided to ditch Ogre after I realized that Weretiger gets Pounce, and Pounce works with Whirlwind Attack. For anyone who’s curious:

Human Weretiger Fighter 6
Str 14, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 6 (human form)
Str 23, Dex 16, Con 17, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 6 (hybrid form)
Feats: Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, Lunge
Skills:
Gear: Masterwork o-yoroi, +1 naginata, masterwork katana, hitatare

Change Shape (Su): Shift to any of its three alternate forms as a move-equivalent action. When slain, reverts to its humanoid form, although it remains dead.

+5 natural armor in animal or hybrid form
DR 10/silver in animal or hybrid form
pounce in animal and hybrid forms
rake in animal and hybrid forms
scent and low-light vision in all forms

Curse of Lycanthropy (Su): Bite attack in animal or hybrid form infects a humanoid target with lycanthropy (Fortitude DC 15 negates). If the victim’s size is not within one size category of the lycanthrope, this ability has no effect.

Lycanthropic Empathy (Ex): In any form, can communicate and empathize with tigers and dire tigers. They can use Diplomacy to tiger or dire tiger’s attitude, and when so doing gain a +4 racial bonus on the check.

Bravery (Ex): He gains a +2 bonus on Will saves against fear.

Armor Training (Ex): Whenever he is wearing armor, he reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor by 1. In addition, a he can also move at his normal speed while wearing medium armor.

Weapon Training (Ex): Whenever he attacks with a polearm, he gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls.

[exelsisxax]

I decided to ditch Ogre after I realized that Weretiger gets Pounce, and Pounce works with Whirlwind Attack. For anyone who’s curious:

Human Weretiger Fighter 6
Str 14, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 6 (human form)
Str 23, Dex 16, Con 17, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 6 (hybrid form)
Feats: Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, Lunge
Skills:
Gear: Masterwork o-yoroi, +1 naginata, masterwork katana, hitatare

Change Shape (Su): Shift to any of its three alternate forms as a move-equivalent action. When slain, reverts to its humanoid form, although it remains dead.

+5 natural armor in animal or hybrid form
DR 10/silver in animal or hybrid form
pounce in animal and hybrid forms
rake in animal and hybrid forms
scent and low-light vision in all forms

Curse of Lycanthropy (Su): Bite attack in animal or hybrid form infects a humanoid target with lycanthropy (Fortitude DC 15 negates). If the victim’s size is not within one size category of the lycanthrope, this ability has no effect.

Lycanthropic Empathy (Ex): In any form, can communicate and empathize with tigers and dire tigers. They can use Diplomacy to tiger or dire tiger’s attitude, and when so doing gain a +4 racial bonus on the check.

Bravery (Ex): He gains a +2 bonus on Will saves against fear.

Armor Training (Ex): Whenever he is wearing armor, he reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor by 1. In addition, a he can also move at his normal speed while wearing medium armor.

Weapon Training (Ex): Whenever he attacks with a polearm, he gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls.

That's not a realization, that's a hallucination. whirlwind requires a full attack action, not merely a full attack. Similar to spell combat offering a full attack but not being a full attack action, so it also can't be combined with whirlwind.

[Darg]

That's not a realization, that's a hallucination. whirlwind requires a full attack action, not merely a full attack. Similar to spell combat offering a full attack but not being a full attack action, so it also can't be combined with whirlwind.

In 3.5 a full attack is a full attack action just like how an attack is an attack action and a charge is a charge action. The only difference between an attack action and a full attack action is that it's a full attack action if you attack more than once without explicit permission to remain an attack action like cleave or snap kick.

So, it's not an unreasonable mistake if it is one. This makes even more sense when you realize that you can decide between making that action an attack or full attack after you resolve your first attack.

[Maat Mons]

I have two issues with this interpretation.

One is that Haste uses similar wording, saying it grants an extra attack when making “a full attack action.” If this interpretation were correct, Haste wouldn’t give an extra attack with Pounce. But the FAQ, when addressing this specific interaction, says Haste does give an extra attack when using Pounce. Bear in mind, the FAQ isn’t a place for altering the rules. It’s a place for clarifying the rules. So, this can’t be a specific exception Haste is being given. It’s an explanation of what is meant by the phrases “full attack” and “full attack action.”

The other is, if Whirlwind Attack were intended to work as you say, the sensible way to word it would have been “as a full round action…” That would ensure it was its own action that could not be performed as part of other actions that merely allow a full attack. The only reason to involve the phrase “full attack” in the wording at all is to ensure compatibility with other effects that involve a “full attack.”

I’m not sure why you’re bringing up Spell Combat. There’s an FAQ asking if Spell Combat gives a full attack action, and the answer is “yes.”