Building a magus. what's an 'optimal' build? (help with character building)

[thebladeofchaos]

Let me preface this right now, I don't do this often. I hate doing optimal stuff, and would much rather just go 'screw it, let's have fun'. But the campaign I'm in has pretty much gotten to the point where nuance is out the window, we're gonna face things out of our reach entirely (Adult dragon at level 4 for a party of 4. 2 of them. CR 11 twice ain't gonna lose to 4 level 4s is it?) so I'm basically responding in kind and aiming to go as powerful as I can.

so then, lads and lasses, what's the most powerful I can be going with Magus at level 5?

there's 4 modifications to this.

if you melee attack and the target is fighting someone else, you get +10 to hit. this is NOT flanking, this is just them being focused on you. DM's reasoning is this makes it so that if you're fighting weak things, he can just throw more at us to make them more powerful. (bear in mind this was used against us quite handily as we're often outnumbered, and being snuck up on by a goblin who did 30 odd damage hurts)

3.5 is allowed to mix in. yes, this does mean that you can pull, ex, 3.5 Ranger with Pathfinder Rogue. I don't know why either. Party knows 3.5, we pull from 3 at times, I'm just so many levels of 'I'm sticking with pathfinder, if you disagree I'll pull up that list'. helps a lot considering feats normally are 1, 3, 6, 9 etc. when pathfinder is every odd. Knowledge checks don't seem to do much.

Guns and associated classes are off limits. Guns EXIST, but you must follow dnd rules when it comes to making and using them, with one exception being 'use it once, it becomes a martial weapon for you'.

Shield spell and some other spells have been modified to last 24 hours. Shield in particular has been changed to provide +7 AC, but only to your front (it's like 'pick 4 tiles next to one another. that's where the shield is, every other space is open')

Not so much a a change but something to keep in mind: Perception isn't a thing. it's Spot, Listen, etc.

Current thoughts that might help you because they're at least helping me think things through.

probably aiming for Dex build Magus. I want that speed. thinking of going with a thornblade. not 100% on the feats to add dex to damage. to that end thinking of going Elf. in my mind my spells are my damage, not me.

no traits unless you take the extra trait feat. thinking of just using them both to improve metamagic shocking grasp.

Flaws are allowed. 1 per allowable feat. yes this does mean I can have 3 flaws at level 5. learned the lesson of NOT taking ones that require me to take a penalty to listen and spot.

archtypes are allowed. debating Bladebound but open to ideas. for the love of all things holy, avoid anything that needs me to stay good aligned. the party rogue has done enough evil deeds that we'd be looking at party PvP almost instantly. worried what the party healer is going to be like. I am way too convinced that if I have anything exalted I'm gonna be

rolls were 8, 16, 16, 15, 14, 13.

I will say as well, I'm open to pretty much EVERYTHING, but try not to go TOO complex on things. I have to be able to cite these things. I don't mind if you give me an idea I have to google and save the link for, but throw ideas at me. I've done weirder. Crusader/cleric was fun but dropped because tanking isn't as easy when things have +10 to hit you (DM in the open got a double crit with a long bow....)

Terrain tends to be mostly wood areas. DM will play to height, to hiding, sometimes just sitting -just- out of our range to pick us off.

last thing: have fun. I'm not saying this is a definite but I'm just farming ideas right now. My brother for instance things go strength based and a simpler weapon.

[Kurald Galain]

Well, let's start with the Magus guide (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?423754-Myrrh-Frankincense-and-Steel-Kurald-Galain-s-Guide-to-the-Magus) and take it from there :smallwink:

Bladebound is awesome. Also, Magus excels at mobility, so you can start with spells like Exp Retreat, Bladed Dash, and Storm Step (all of which are usable in spell combat), culminating in Dimension Door + Dimensional Agility at level 10 (meaning you can pounce from 800' away). Also, go for the feats Step Up and Lunge for more mobility options. HTH.

(edit) also, with your GM's houserules make AC decidedly less useful, so get some defense spells that don't rely on AC. In particular, Mirror Image and Displacement, possibly Vanish.

[Rynjin]

It's always weird seeing a list of 4 reasonable hosuerules and one that just make syou go "...What?"

But that ain't the topic of the thread.

Kurald has a good guide he posted already for Magi, but if you want teh cliff notes of how to build a Magus, it's simple: put a few ranks in Perform, grab Dervish Dance at level 3, and use your Spell Combat and Spellstrike abilities to hit people with Shocking Grasp when you need them dead. Magi are very, very simple at that base level.

The only real trick you need to know is that you can use Spell Combat with your Arcane Mark cantrip to get an extra attack at-will, similar to two-weapon fighting.

But yeah, definitely second Kurald's advice to throw AC out the window because it does not matter with that whack ass houserule; use Blur, Mirror Image, etc. You can Spell Combat with buffing spells so if you get caught with your pants down and haven't pre-buffed, you can actually cast Blur etc. and still attack s a Full Round Action, which is neat.

Bladebound is super cool, especially if your GM is stingy with loot. Just keep in mind that it does give you fewer spell slots in exchange. And make sure you take advantage of the roleplaying opportunities having a sentient weapon allows you!

[thebladeofchaos]

Trust me, I'm raising eyebrows at that (the +10 thing) as well. None of us understand it, but we've had some rules put in to compensate. for instance, spells in reaction are a thing (mirror image, sections of the prismatic wall, deflect weapon/missile), and if someone attacks you you can back away up to 15 foot for a +10ac per space so long as you're not pinned between two....but they can follow. still doesn't make armor worth it. feels more like this is just to have it so that our attempts at armor through the roof means nothing when we're in big battles. I'm not sure at all if this is a 'it's the campaign we're in' thing or 'DM bringing in house rules to encourage a playstyle' thing.

for reference, last campaign he did, as part of the campaign setting, arcane casters suffered severe drawbacks for their power. I'm talking 10x the casting time and physical deformalities. but that was a campaign thing. I don't know if this is a thing for this campaign or if it's him.

but on topic. I actually think I have a different handbook of yours I've looking over, Kurald. google docs with images and shiney things. It's honestly been helpful, but me being me my brain got stuck with too many options, and this being a new thing for me, I'm so many flavors of torn. ESPECIALLY given the +10.

Plan right now from what I'm reading from the handbook and you two is 'screw AC, get as many ways of mitigating them hitting as possible that isn't armor class' so spamming Mirror image is going to be a god send, as is stagger, fatigue, status effects really........oh god now I'm pondering Warlock. FOCUS ME! was torn between Scimitar, Rapier and Thornblade but that's mostly because I've ALREADY been a scimitar user, a rapier I know and love and Thornblade as an Elf is just a rapier with a bonus. Conversations with the brother (also in the game) mostly result in 'go Strength based and don't dump armor, you'll still need it' because less feat investment when I'm mostly starved for feats.

no I don't listen to his opinion often when it comes to new stuff. He didn't like me playing Swordsage as 'it's too complicated when you can just play Rogue' and Crusader was a resounding 'you're doing nothing with your stance that couldn't be done with fighter' Iron Guard's glare for reference.

[Kurald Galain]

Mirror image is going to be a god send, as is stagger, fatigue, status effects really........
Magus can do status effects just fine.

For instance, Frigid Touch is a touch attack that staggers (no save) on a hit.
Frostbite is a touch attack that deals cold damage and fatigues; with the feat Chilling Amplification it also negates 5' steps; with the feat Enforcer it also inflicts shaken; and with a Cruel Weapon it also inflicts sickened. Yes, all of that at the same time.

If you don't want to use a scimitar, either go strength-primary (so you don't need to spend feats on dex-to-hit or -damage) or just don't focus on damage all that much (and instead, on debuff stacks like above).


'go Strength based and don't dump armor, you'll still need it'
Yes, that. Or go strength based, take Mithril Chainmail, and retain your 30' base movement speed.

[Rynjin]

Good thing to remember is that the Magus list is built on the Wizard list. You get basically every spell that reads "ruin an enemy's day" in the game, as long as it has an attack roll, and then more besides. You can build a Magus as the standard nova caster or as a debuffer interchangeably. The Hexcrafter is a good archetype to take for the latter.

[thebladeofchaos]

OK, it's taken a bit to ponder things over. admittedly the handbook and you two have helped a metric ton, so I've gone from 'nothing at all' to 'missing a few things but that needs input from outside to resolve' (one of the easy examples: Shield has been modified. if that's cheaper, then I need to account for it), but bright side, it's led to an.....interesting result.

Stat line ended up at 8, 18, 14, 19, 15, 11. went with Tiefling for race but Elf was high on the list (was pondering Drow noble but I don't think the DM would have gone for it, and I think I need con more then cha given glass cannon AND the +10). Ended up taking both Bladebound and Kensai archtypes so I know I'm less of a mage and more of a bruiser, so I am tempted to swap Dex with Int to really put the hammer down. armor without protectives is at 18 already (which I can't help but think is actually decent) haven't touched flaws yet (debating if I want extras) but sat on the bonus feat at 5, debating that being used for Rime spell and focusing on cold based spells or just putting that into extra arcana or more pool. unless I'm mistaken I use IT'S pool to modify IT as opposed to mine, right?

either way, the current debate is if it's worth investing in Keen for the blade, 15-20 for crit fishing, but 6k extra as opposed to using 2 points of my limited pool. admittedly if my math's right that's 3 minutes I can use it. Don't think there's a wrong answer so much as there's an answer that works now and an answer that works later, but I think my DM's going to be SLIGHTLY upset.

other then that, it's just spells. which I know Shocking Grasp and Frostbite, along with Frigid Touch, Vanish, just have fun with things really.

So....yeah, that's about it. any input you've got on this I'm more then happy to take in, but if there's nothing to really note.....This is going to be interesting and I may need to take Echoing spell later on.

[Kurald Galain]

unless I'm mistaken I use IT'S pool to modify IT as opposed to mine, right?
No, you use your own.


either way, the current debate is if it's worth investing in Keen for the blade
You can't pay for further enchantments on the black blade; it comes with its own abilities that expand (rather a lot) as you level up.


using 2 points of my limited pool.
One, actually.

[ciopo]

Personally, I would just prepare keen edge, 10min/level duration equals "whole dungeon" in practice

[SoleAr]

The only good Magus is Sublime Warmage, but it's complicated.

A good recap of a class is Legendary Magus, not so complicated.

Vanilla magus it rather weak class in OP vision.

[Rynjin]

The only good Magus is Sublime Warmage, but it's complicated.

A good recap of a class is Legendary Magus, not so complicated.

Vanilla magus it rather weak class in OP vision.

This is Pathfinder.

[SoleAr]

This is Pathfinder.

I mean 'Codex of Blood: Parasites and Paragons' Sublime Warmage. It's Path of War version of Magus.

Legendary is Pathfinder also.

[Rynjin]

I mean 'Codex of Blood: Parasites and Paragons' Sublime Warmage. It's Path of War version of Magus.

Legendary is Pathfinder also.

Magus is by no means a weak class, so I assumed you were talking about some gimped 3.5 version.

[Jay R]

I'll let others focus on the build. I'm going to point out a couple of aspects of play.

When a rule looks over-powered, and it's being used against you, then take every opportunity to use it against them in return.

So always attack the foe who's fighting someone else. Grab that +10 to hit. And then use it to make your other abilities even better.

When you have that +10:
It makes the -2 for fighting when casting much less important.
It makes crits much more likely, so always have touch spells prepared to use the spellstrike ability.
When casting defensively, always reduce your attack rolls to improve your concentration roll. You're still likely to hit.
At 5th level, you can add +2 to your sword. You are already very likely to hit, so make that a weapon +1, with extra damage of the sort that will be best against this foe.

Most importantly, have fun. Use the abilities, but think about the battle, not the rules.

[thebladeofchaos]

When you have that +10:
It makes the -2 for fighting when casting much less important.
It makes crits much more likely, so always have touch spells prepared to use the spellstrike ability.
When casting defensively, always reduce your attack rolls to improve your concentration roll. You're still likely to hit.
At 5th level, you can add +2 to your sword. You are already very likely to hit, so make that a weapon +1, with extra damage of the sort that will be best against this foe.

Most importantly, have fun. Use the abilities, but think about the battle, not the rules.

oh we are doing. though admittedly I haven't been doing the casting improvement because I had +12 naturally. highest I had to roll was 9 and it was worth the risk. even then, I've been trying to do this.......but I'm the only one who actually got a summoning cleric going who died so...yeah. Does feel less like a story we're making and more 'here's the excuse for combat this time'

[Kurald Galain]

Right. Get the spells Clay Skin and Stoneskin, because +10 to hit doesn't matter if they can't damage you. Also get Flamboyant Arcana and the Deivon's Parry spell, so you can parry attack rolls with your own attack rolls (when they also get a +10), and in the former case you get a free riposte attack too.

Also consider the Step Up feat; if an enemy caster moves away to avoid that +10 to hit, NO he does not! :smallbiggrin:

[thebladeofchaos]

SO, DM shenanigans on this front. if you have a +10 against you, you can back up about 15ft (in 5 foot intervals, you can be followed) so long as you're not pinned between 2, and you get +10 and deny their +10 if you go the full 15.

bright side, in other DM shenanigans (and I'm just learning this one) the modified defensive spells? Mage armor is 400 gold effectively. same with shield and protection from alignment.

Guess who just got A LOT of spare cash :D

[SoleAr]

Magus is by no means a weak class, so I assumed you were talking about some gimped 3.5 version.

It's debatable. Summoner/Alchemist/Warpriest is better gish than Magus. Magus has only 1 advantage - Mirror Image on low levels.

[Kurald Galain]

It's debatable. Summoner/Alchemist/Warpriest is better gish than Magus. Magus has only 1 advantage - Mirror Image on low levels.

Lol. Maaaaybe you should read the Magus class a bit more closely, then :smallamused:

[SoleAr]

Lol. Maaaaybe you should read the Magus class a bit more closely, then :smallamused:

Magus doesn't have good to-hit ans AC buffs on low lvls. It has too few spells slots with which he can boost dmg or AC. Even in comparison with other T3 (Summoner, POW classes, Mounted Warpriest) it's weak. In comparison with battle-oriented T1 (Cleric, Druid, Eldrich Knight) mid-high lvls he is just pale.

[Kurald Galain]

AC buffs on low lvls.
What, like the Shield spell? :smallamused:


It has too few spells slots
That's funny because all those classes you mention have the exact same amount of spell slots :smallbiggrin:

[SoleAr]

What, like the Shield spell? :smallamused:


That's funny because all those classes you mention have the exact same amount of spell slots :smallbiggrin:

Magus must choose between Shield and Shocking Grasp (and may be True Strike) for his pitiful amount of spell spots. So he can buff to hit/ac or dmg, but not all.
Warpriest has heavy armour/shield that not interfere with his casting. DFavor for to hit. And he can heal himself.
Alchemist just pump his ac with his slots (also without interference), mutagen for to hit/dmg/ac in one action. And he can heal himself.
Summoner buff his eidolon while being invincible invisible.

Poor Magus is trying to kill smbdy with ShGrasp with penalties to hit or not to be killed with Shield. With 4 combat per day he is out of slots after first(ok, second) combat.