Advice requested about a Wu Jen/JPM gish

[remetagross]

Hello, fellow Playgrounders. How is your day? Mine's good so far.

Context:
-So, I'm currently in a 20-level PbP campaign, where the GM does not pull his punches. I'm considering a replacement character, just in case. I've been fiddling with the well-known Wu Jen/Jade Phœnix Mage build. Indeed, since I would be playing the build straight at level 20, I can at once benefit from the Transcend Mortality/Emerald Immolation trick, instead of avidly contemplating it on my wishlist for the next two years while I'm languishing at ECL 10. You see my point?
-The GM is fairly permissive power-wise, as long as RAW sticks. His upper acceptable power limit and only time he's bent RAW so far: 120% real illusions from our Shadowcraft Mage. He's ruled that succeeding on the Will save inflicts upon you the 100% real illusion, while failing gives you the 120% real one. Flaws are OK, and I guess location-based feats would be too.
-The rest of the party: said Shadowcraft Mage, a Silver Key with absurd social and infiltration skills, a Duelist with absurd saves and AC. All fairly optimized. My current character is a Dragonborn Knight 20 where I've been pulling all the levers I know to crank up his threat level at its ceiling, so as not to let the rest of the party down too much.

So that gives you mates some insight about what is and what is not acceptable. Anyway. I've got several questions, and here is the first.

The standard build in the Gish handbook says Wu Jen 5/Crusader 1/JPM 10/Abjurant Champion 4. I don't like this build. Abjurant Champion requires the pretty useless Combat Casting, and quickening Shield and Mage Armor. But first, Wu Jens don't get Mage Armor. Second, gishes have a lot of things to do with their swift actions, and martial initiators even more so. I'm not sold on spending one of them even on Luminous Armor (the Str damage is annoying for a Gish). Third, Arcane Boost is redundant with Arcane Wrath, the similar class feature from JPM. Fourth, if I swap Abjurant Champion 4 with AC 3/Spellsword 1, I can ignore 10% of ASF. Since Crusader gives heavy armor proficiency, I can then use a Blended Quartz (A&EG) Thistledown padded Feycraft full plate and bam, +8 armor AC bonus with no ASF. And since I get shield proficiency, let's put in an Animated heavy blended quartz shield for a +3 shield AC for good measure. Which means, no need for either swift action something-Armor nor Shield.
For all these reasons, and given that Wu Jens can cast Command Plant (something Wizards cannot do), I naturally qualify for Verdant Lord. This is another full-BAB, full-casting PrC, with no feat tax, better skill points, better saves, and that gives me a bonus item creating feat, Craft Infusion. Not a bad one, at that, since that more or less makes up for the lack of Scribe Scroll from Wizard 1. Hence, I was thinking about Wu Jen 6/Crusader 1/Spellsword 1/Verdant Lord 2/JPM 10. Since I'm nabbing an item creation feat with Verdant Lord and a bonus metamagic feat with Wu Jen 1, I just need one more useful metamagic feat (of which there are a lot), visit a Frog God's Fane and bam, I can swap Verdant Lord 2 with Loremaster 1 at level 20 and nab a bonus feat (maybe Martial Study for a high-level manœuver). And I keep 9ths and BAB+16.

My build so far is thus Wu Jen 4/Crusader 1/Wu Jen 2/Spellsword 1/Verdant Lord 1/JPM 10/Loremaster 1. Now, do you think it's worse than the Abjurant Champion build?

[NontheistCleric]

Does Verdant Lord not require the Plant Control and Plant Defiance feats, both of which require the ability to cast spells the Wu Jen lacks access to?

Also, it has better skills, but has skill taxes unlikely to be useful to you, and you're only taking it for a single level, so it comes out of the equation worse. The HD is smaller, too.

I would spend those feats on a way to negate ability damage if it bothers you (Strongheart Vest Soulmeld?) and play with the Sanctified spells and a little Abjurant Champion boost. Your AC will end up better and you can save your GP for something else. Besides, sacrifice damage takes effect when the spell ends, so depending on timing it might not even be an issue.

The overlap between Arcane Boost and Arcane Wrath hardly matters, since you can use those slots on spells more powerful than either of their effects.

[remetagross]

Wow, for some reason I had overlooked the two prerequisite feats for Verdant Lord. Good catch. In this case, yeah, Verdant Lord definitely becomes less interesting than Abjurant Champion.

Good point on the overlap between Arcane Wrath and Arcane Boost, but I'd note that I'm quite liable to use my low-level spell slots for either of these two effects, rather than on the spells themselves. So I'm expecting to still get some mileage out of these class features.

Alright, I'm sold. Let's change this build to Wu Jen 4/Crusader 1/Wu Jen 2/Abjurant Champion 2/JPM 10/Loremaster 1.

Now, here's the other question. I was planning on taking Illumian as my race, for two reasons.

1. The Krau power sigil lets me catch up on 2 out of the 3 points of CL I lose in this build, hence negating the need for Practised Spellcaster.
2. I was planning to take Improved Power Sigil (Krau) and Sanctum Spell to be able to cast 8th-level spells at ECL 15 (CL 12) and 10th-level spells at ECL 18 (CL15). This would then allow me to pick Extra Slot (7th-level slot) at ECL 15 and then Extra Slot (9th-level slot) at ECL 18. This way, I can enjoy Giant size and Body outside body as soon as ECL 15 (since my Int would grant me an extra 7th-level spell on top of the one granted by the feat), and Shapechange, etc. as soon as ECL 18 (instead of having to wait till ECL 20).

Now, since I was going to play a gish...I was thinking about picking either Uur or Ash for my second sigil. With Uurkrau, I'm using Dex for bonus spells, so I can crank up Dex at maximum, not care too much about save-allowing spells, have a good AC, good Ref saves, a good Init modifier, and I would use Feycraft weapons for Weapon Finesse. Plus, Desert Wind manœuvers mesh well with two-weapon fighting. Or, if I pick Aeshkrau, I'm pumping Str as high as I can, and I can deal good damage as a two-handed fighter, that can use Power Attack at maximum with the touch attacks from the Lightning Blade spell, for example.

I'm kind of torn here. Opinions?

[NontheistCleric]

I'd go with Uurkrau. It has more benefits overall, and as a caster and initiator, you don't really need Power Attack to be relevant in melee.

Saves you a feat, too.

[remetagross]

Makes sense. Combining two-handed Power Attack with touch attacks from Lightning Blade works all the same, since you can't apply Str bonus to the damage caused by this spell anyway. The one thing I'll regret is the ability to reach Str 66 with Giant Size, which would allow me to beat Kord in a wrestling contest. I guess that's settled then.

[Chronos]

Being able to quicken Mage Armor and/or Luminous Armor is basically irrelevant, since they both have a duration of 1 hour per level. You should already have them cast before combat starts.

There's an argument that sanctified spells don't work with things that prevent ability score damage, because the damage is a component of the spell, and so if you're preventing the damage, you don't have the needed component. On the other hand, 1d3 Str damage at the end of the day isn't very much-- You could just get an item that casts Lesser Restoration 1/day, or something. Or use a Strike of Righteous Vitality, if you can manage 9th-level maneuvers (I think that build tops out at 8ths, but there might be some trick I'm missing).

One other combo to remember with a Jade Phoenix Wu Jen is Body Outside Body. The duplicates can't cast spells, but they can do everything else, including all of your maneuvers. That's a lot more useful than it is on a strait Wu Jen, for whom they're basically just 10th-level warriors.

[sleepyphoenixx]

Being able to quicken Mage Armor and/or Luminous Armor is basically irrelevant, since they both have a duration of 1 hour per level. You should already have them cast before combat starts.
2 hours per level actually since Abjurant Champion auto-extends abjurations. So by the time you actually take your first level of AC it'll already last all day.
That also means you can just dismiss the spell immediately before resting (and healing the ability damage with your natural healing).


There's an argument that sanctified spells don't work with things that prevent ability score damage, because the damage is a component of the spell, and so if you're preventing the damage, you don't have the needed component. On the other hand, 1d3 Str damage at the end of the day isn't very much-- You could just get an item that casts Lesser Restoration 1/day, or something. Or use a Strike of Righteous Vitality, if you can manage 9th-level maneuvers (I think that build tops out at 8ths, but there might be some trick I'm missing).
A Rod of Bodily Restoration (MIC, 3100gp) is probably your best bet. And something you'll likely want to buy anyway.

As for SoRV you could use it from an item if you have a bard to Inspire Greatness you, but otherwise the build caps out at IL 16 unless you want to give up 9th level spells.

[Clause]

you can be a
illumian
wu jen4 / initiator1/ JPM 10/ grey hand enforcer 5

but if you make: initiator5, warrior skald4 (illumians are human, hight?),Sublime Chord1/JPM10??

[herrhauptmann]

you can be a
illumian
wu jen4 / initiator1/ JPM 10/ grey hand enforcer 5

but if you make: initiator5, warrior skald4 (illumians are human, hight?),Sublime Chord1/JPM10??

Human subtype I think. So yes, but some differences.

Remetagross.

Are you fighting a lot of casters? How does the Mageslayer line of feats look to you?
If you take them as soon as you can, you can then take Abjurant Champion to 5 to tie your CL to BAB instead of dealing with that -12.
A level of Ranger with Favored Enemy: Arcanists.
Then Nemesis from BoED. You can sense their distance/direction; spells and blindfight (from PMC) handle the rest.
You can then finish your progression up with JPM, but you won't hit capstone at 20.
For variety sake, you can take Suel Arcanamach and Sublime Chord for a different gish mix. But it's a bit limited in spell selection; and overall a little worse than Sorcadin on most metrics: CL, BAB, spell per day, etc.

[Clause]

Human subtype I think. So yes, but some diferences.
[/LIST]

I see illumians like a diferent etny. Cause they are humanoid(humans). Its like they are the atlant people, or like anhone with a chromossome diference. Like a guy or girl with triple chromossome. Its a human, but with a diference, that no make them other thing diferent of a human.

[Chronos]

The human subtype still makes them eligible for thing that require human, though, just like grey elves, sun elves, dark elves, etc. all count as elves.

[remetagross]

Thanks for the answers, mates.


Being able to quicken Mage Armor and/or Luminous Armor is basically irrelevant, since they both have a duration of 1 hour per level. You should already have them cast before combat starts.

There's an argument that sanctified spells don't work with things that prevent ability score damage, because the damage is a component of the spell, and so if you're preventing the damage, you don't have the needed component. On the other hand, 1d3 Str damage at the end of the day isn't very much-- You could just get an item that casts Lesser Restoration 1/day, or something. Or use a Strike of Righteous Vitality, if you can manage 9th-level maneuvers (I think that build tops out at 8ths, but there might be some trick I'm missing).

One other combo to remember with a Jade Phoenix Wu Jen is Body Outside Body. The duplicates can't cast spells, but they can do everything else, including all of your maneuvers. That's a lot more useful than it is on a strait Wu Jen, for whom they're basically just 10th-level warriors.

Good catch on their duration. That means I can save up my 1st round swift action for something else: Minor shapeshift, or entering the JPM special stances, or initiating a boost, or casting something while under the effect of Arcane Spellsurge. I like that. And yeah, I've tried fairly hard, but as far as I know hitting both 9th level Wu Jen spells and 9th level maneuvers and JPM 10 is a very tight business. It can be done if you consider Legacy Champion can extend JPM's class features past JPM 10, for example, but I think that enters the realm of "no" from my GM. Such a messy trick is a bit too inelegant to my taste, anyway.


2 hours per level actually since Abjurant Champion auto-extends abjurations. So by the time you actually take your first level of AC it'll already last all day.
That also means you can just dismiss the spell immediately before resting (and healing the ability damage with your natural healing).


A Rod of Bodily Restoration (MIC, 3100gp) is probably your best bet. And something you'll likely want to buy anyway.

As for SoRV you could use it from an item if you have a bard to Inspire Greatness you, but otherwise the build caps out at IL 16 unless you want to give up 9th level spells.

Yeah, I was thinking about that rod as well. A very inexpensive and useful magic item. About the Inspire Greatness trick, good catch. We don't have a Bard in the party currently, and I don't think Leader is on the table, but it's good to know. With that 45k item to learn any one Devoted Spirit maneuver, I can work around this build's fairly tight number of known maneuvers.


you can be a
illumian
wu jen4 / initiator1/ JPM 10/ grey hand enforcer 5

but if you make: initiator5, warrior skald4 (illumians are human, hight?),Sublime Chord1/JPM10??

I didn't know the Grey Hand Enforcer class. Not too shabby, but it doesn't bring much to my build I'm afraid. The warrior skald version is a really good one, I didn't know this trick to get Bardic Music without losing any BAB. Unfortunately it does not grand Wu Jen spellcasting, which was the whole point of the build. I'll keep it in mind for another version, though.


Human subtype I think. So yes, but some differences.

Remetagross.

Are you fighting a lot of casters? How does the Mageslayer line of feats look to you?
If you take them as soon as you can, you can then take Abjurant Champion to 5 to tie your CL to BAB instead of dealing with that -12.
A level of Ranger with Favored Enemy: Arcanists.
Then Nemesis from BoED. You can sense their distance/direction; spells and blindfight (from PMC) handle the rest.
You can then finish your progression up with JPM, but you won't hit capstone at 20.
For variety sake, you can take Suel Arcanamach and Sublime Chord for a different gish mix. But it's a bit limited in spell selection; and overall a little worse than Sorcadin on most metrics: CL, BAB, spell per day, etc.


-We've been through two fights so far (in 18 months of PbP :smallbiggrin:), one of which involving Su-using creatures. It's not out of the question we'll be facing high-level spellcasters, though. But I'm not super fond of that line of feats for several reasons.
1. At level 20, spellcasters have ways of getting around AoOs that make Mage Slayer a bit moot (swift-action movement, swift- or free-action spellcasting, turning spells into (Su) abilities, etc.)
2. JPM can quicken one spell per fight of 5th-level or lower, and quickening a True Seeing is an excellent choice to get around all these kind of miss chances
3. Using touch attacks with Lightning Blade means I'm not too annoyed by AC boosting spells.
-Nice trick with AC 5 to counteract the -12 to CL, though.
-What's PMC?
-I'm having trouble figuring out the outline of your build here. Initiator /Ranger 1/Wu Jen/JPM 10 AC/5?

[herrhauptmann]

Pmc would be pierce magic concealment, not private military contractor. :)

Yeah, that's the basic idea of the build, mix and match as necessary. Like you see issues with mageslayer at 20? Takes the need for AbjChamp away. Also you'll want to trade away ranger abilities for ACFs like solo hunter. Lose the companion get extra bonuses on Favored Enemy. And a noncasting ranger ACF, I don't remember what that one gives.

There's also a harper themed prc that I think gives Favored Enemy:Evil, but has its own casting. Harper Scout? Nice for some builds, but not for your jpm.

The advantage of nemesis is that it's always working, and I think it's ex, so even in an AMF. It's a lot better at lower levels when you're likely to be in the presence of hidden casters and can't just keep arcane sight going 24/7 to find them. Walking through a dungeon and you just know there's a caster around a corner? It's not as good as true seeing, but it saves a quickened spell and a slot.

Thank you on the compliment. I never see others mention it, so I worry I missed an errata or something.

[remetagross]

I'm a bit annoyed at taking Ranger levels, since they neither advance arcane spellcasting nor fully advance initiator levels.

However, I'm finding it quite difficult to figure out how to quickly buff at the beginning of the fight without wasting too much time (a single round of buffing would be ideal). I'm thinking about Ocular Spell (Lightning Blade, Haste) for example, or Arcane Spellsurge and then Body outside Body as a swift action. But swift actions are a precious resource, given I also need them to get into the Firebird stance from JPM, and to initiate boosts, and...

Any advice on how to cram the greatest possible amount of buff spells on round 1 of the fight?

[herrhauptmann]

How to break action economy?
Best I've got for you is Incantatrix with extended/persisted buffs. Two days long at that point.

How difficult are your fights, how many per day? If you spend too many slots buffing with shorter buffs, you'll be out of spells well before the rest of the party. Yeah you've got initiator to cover some of that, but still...

Custom magic items are probably your way forward. Like there's a shadow hand ability that's cloudwalk isn't it? Put it into a pair of shoes.

[remetagross]

Yeah, Incantatrix is out of the table if only because there's no room for it alongwith JPM 10 and enough initiator level to reach 8th or 9th-level maneuvers.

The fights are really hard, and 3 per day is what we have so far. Your remark holds true though, hence my will not to spend more than maybe 1 round's worth of spells before diving into melee.

Magic items, custom or not, can certainly help, with regard to flight in particular. But only to a certain extent, since any clones created with Body outside Body will not have them. This is also the reason why I don't want to rely too much on magic items to gain access to some maneuvers.