Levitate and Weapon Properties

[Nagog]

Had an interesting thought the other day and would love to hear how ya'll would rule/handle this, as well as how potentially gamebreaking this could be.

If the party Wizard/Sorcerer/Artificer were to cast Levitate on the Barbarian/Fighter's Greataxe, would it then be considered light? Could it then be used for two-weapon fighting, as long as it is weightless? Could it then be thrown at great range as an (improvised) ranged attack?

What about casting Levitate on an arrow or crossbow bolt to give it longer range? Theoretically, it would no longer have to deal with gravity dragging it back to earth, though wind/wind resistance would probably make such an attack be made at disadvantage.

What sayest the Playground?

[JNAProductions]

No. I would not rule that.

Light isn’t just pure weight-it’s also balance and size and construction. Moreover, unless the wielded was trained with a levitating axe, the decreased weight would make it really awkward to use.

I could see a magic item working on those principles, but not that spell.

[tokek]

The effect I can think of which would come closest to doing this would be the Graviturgy Wizard Adjust Density feature

The problem is - and I speak from experience of using reproduction weapons in reenactments - a very light weapon would handle poorly, be poorly balanced and basically hit like a sharpened wooden stick. A lightweight greataxe would just bounce off a shield rather than smashing it aside to hit the person cowering behind it.

[Unoriginal]

Had an interesting thought the other day and would love to hear how ya'll would rule/handle this, as well as how potentially gamebreaking this could be.

If the party Wizard/Sorcerer/Artificer were to cast Levitate on the Barbarian/Fighter's Greataxe, would it then be considered light? Could it then be used for two-weapon fighting, as long as it is weightless? Could it then be thrown at great range as an (improvised) ranged attack?

What about casting Levitate on an arrow or crossbow bolt to give it longer range? Theoretically, it would no longer have to deal with gravity dragging it back to earth, though wind/wind resistance would probably make such an attack be made at disadvantage.

What sayest the Playground?

The light and heavy weapon properties have basically nothing to do with the actual weight of the weapons.

Furthermore, nothing you mention can be done via the Levitate spell, which states:



One creature or object of your choice that you can see within range rises vertically, up to 20 feet, and remains suspended there for the duration. The spell can levitate a target that weighs up to 500 pounds. An unwilling creature that succeeds on a Constitution saving throw is unaffected.

The target can move only by pushing or pulling against a fixed object or surface within reach (such as a wall or a ceiling), which allows it to move as if it were climbing. You can change the target's altitude by up to 20 feet in either direction on your turn.

Highlights are mine.

So casting Levitate on a greataxe or an arrow would just make them impossible to use as weapons, as they float on a specific spot and stays there.

[kazaryu]

Had an interesting thought the other day and would love to hear how ya'll would rule/handle this, as well as how potentially gamebreaking this could be. if my players come up with a cool idea, that seems like it'd be really fun, i don't *tend* to spend much time worrying about how game breaking it could be, at least from a mechanical perspective. there are some things that 'just don't work like that' from a world building perspective, but beyond that, unless your group is highly competitive balance isn't really a primary concern especially for ideas that require teamwork.



If the party Wizard/Sorcerer/Artificer were to cast Levitate on the Barbarian/Fighter's Greataxe, would it then be considered light? Could it then be used for two-weapon fighting, as long as it is weightless? as far as RaW no, making an item weightless wouldn't inherently give it the light weapon property. as others have mentioned, the 'light' weapon property isn't just about weight that being said, considering it requires either a single caster with access to twin metamagic, or 2 separate caster's to use their concentration to give 1 character an extra weapon attack per turn using a 2d6 weapon. and if you're talking about just a greataxe alongside an actual light weapon then you don't need the second casting...but then the effect is even less impressive. its basically a higher damage/higher cost version of spiritual weapon at that point. so...i wouldn't really call that game breaking. no. if you and your group thinks its cool/fun and it doesn't get in the way of how magic works in your world (i.e. for some people spells are discrete things that do just what they say on the tin) then i don't think there's any real reason to not allow it.


Could it then be thrown at great range as an (improvised) ranged attack?

What about casting Levitate on an arrow or crossbow bolt to give it longer range? Theoretically, it would no longer have to deal with gravity dragging it back to earth, though wind/wind resistance would probably make such an attack be made at disadvantage.

What sayest the Playground?

i wouldn't worry much about wind resistance for something like a greataxe unless they're trying to throw it truly far but, yes, it makes absolute sense that you'd be able to throw a thing further if it didn't have to worry about gravity, thats an implicit function of the spell. disadvantage seems like it would be fair (on top of not getting proficiency bonus) depending on how far they're trying to extend its range...and remember especially for a thrown weapon, even if the initial throw was accurate, if its thrown too far...whoever they're chucking it at may see it coming, so beyond a certain range its fair to say it just...automatically doesn't hit because the person had so much time to dodge. Heck, i might even consider letting them spend downtime actually training to gain proficiency in throwing/shooting levitated weapons/arrows/bolts.



Highlights are mine.

So casting Levitate on a greataxe or an arrow would just make them impossible to use as weapons, as they float on a specific spot and stays there.

to be fair...you literally bolded the section that explicitly allows them to be moved...they just need to push/pull on a fixed object. they spell doesn't make an object a temporary immovable rod, based on how the spell itself explains that it works its not meant to hold things in place. sure you could interpret to the spell to mean that there's an inherent resistance to movement (beyond inertia i mean), but the wording doesn't obligate that interpretation.

[Unoriginal]

i
to be fair...you literally bolded the section that explicitly allows them to be moved...they just need to push/pull on a fixed object.

How is a (non-animated) greataxe going to push/pull on a fixed object?

[McGarnagle]

You're muddling the distinction between weight and mass with your proposed greataxe trick. A levitating greataxe is easier to carry, but you'll need to exert the same amount of effort to wield it as a weapon as you would with a non-levitating greataxe.

Levitate has a range of 60 feet, which upon reading the language in the spell description I take to mean "within 60 feet of the caster's position at the time of casting." Based on this reading, I don't think there's any improvement to the range of a bow that shoots arrows affected by Levitate.

[Nagog]

How is a (non-animated) greataxe going to push/pull on a fixed object?

Because a Greataxe is not a living creature. Under you're ruling, a creature under the effects of Levitate is immune to any form of Forced Movement, because.... Reasons? Which is decidedly not how the spell works.



Levitate has a range of 60 feet, which upon reading the language in the spell description I take to mean "within 60 feet of the caster's position at the time of casting." Based on this reading, I don't think there's any improvement to the range of a bow that shoots arrows affected by Levitate.

The 60ft range is the maximum distance between the caster and the target at time of casting. If the spell would end early due to leaving that range from the caster, it would have language specifically saying so, such as the terms present in Witch Bolt and Compelled Duel.

Considering the lack of terminology, it should work just fine to cast it on said ammunition, then fire it. What it does from there is what I'm concerned about.

[Unoriginal]

Because a Greataxe is not a living creature. Under you're ruling, a creature under the effects of Levitate is immune to any form of Forced Movement, because.... Reasons? Which is decidedly not how the spell works.


First, let's establish how the spell work for limiting the movement of those caught in it.

The spell says the only way for the target to move is to push or pull against a fixed object. "The target can move only by" is pretty explicit as far as spell wording go. That means they can't swim if it's cast on them while they're in water, or fly if they have the ability to fly, or using other spells or abilities to make them move except if they're pushing/pulling on a fixed object (I'd say teleportation effects would work because it's more "changing the spot where you stand" than moving).

The spell also states that the target "remains suspended there for the duration", which indicates that the purpose of the spell is partially to keep the target stationary on the horizontal plane.

Are we in agreement so far?

[Nagog]

Are we in agreement so far?

No, but go off. Your explanation, while amusing, is so obviously far beyond RAI and won't be supported by any DM, it's like watching one of those Reddit Breaking Bad memes develop in real time.

[Sigreid]

AFB but I don't think levitate has any effect on weight or mass, I think it just lifts things up.

[Lord Torath]

First, let's establish how the spell work for limiting the movement of those caught in it.

The spell says the only way for the target to move is to push or pull against a fixed object. "The target can move only by" is pretty explicit as far as spell wording go. That means they can't swim if it's cast on them while they're in water, or fly if they have the ability to fly, or using other spells or abilities to make them move except if they're pushing/pulling on a fixed object (I'd say teleportation effects would work because it's more "changing the spot where you stand" than moving).

The spell also states that the target "remains suspended there for the duration", which indicates that the purpose of the spell is partially to keep the target stationary on the horizontal plane.

Are we in agreement so far?It appears the writer/editor did not anticipate it being cast on a swimming or flying creatures, as both are already 'levitating' (not touching a solid surface).

Also "The only way the target can move" is not at all the same as "The only way to move the target." If I levitate a person, can I toss them a rope, and then pull them around like a helium balloon? They're not connected to a 'fixed object', since both the rope and myself are movable, but I would certainly allow it.

I think the idea is that the levitated person can push off a fixed object. Levitate near a wall, and you can push off said wall to propel yourself horizontally at the altitude determined by the spell. If you have the wings to push off the air or flippers/limbs to push off water, you should be able to do so. You will just be unable to change your altitude from that dictated by the caster.

If you levitate a weapon, that weapon is now going to be floating at a given altitude. I suspect this would make it exceptionally hard to fight with, unless the wielder limits themself to purely horizontal thrusts/swings.

I would suggest you could use it to lighten the load on an otherwise-overloaded horse (or other mount).

Versions from previous editions have explicitly not prevented horizontal movement via wind/ropes/etc. Heck the 2E version states that if you try to use a missile weapon while levitated, you will move yourself around, making each subsequent shot that much harder to aim.

[kazaryu]

How is a (non-animated) greataxe going to push/pull on a fixed object?

the implication of that line is that the object isn't forcibly stationary...its not an immovable rod, it can be moved. just like your body can be moved. as i said in my other post there is room for the interpretation that there is some amount of force trying to keep the object (or creature) stationary, meaning that once force is no longer applied the object rapidly loses momentum. but its not overtly implicit, at least not from how im reading it.


You're muddling the distinction between weight and mass with your proposed greataxe trick. A levitating greataxe is easier to carry, but you'll need to exert the same amount of effort to wield it as a weapon as you would with a non-levitating greataxe.

Levitate has a range of 60 feet, which upon reading the language in the spell description I take to mean "within 60 feet of the caster's position at the time of casting." Based on this reading, I don't think there's any improvement to the range of a bow that shoots arrows affected by Levitate. this is only partially true. weight an mass both play a role in how a weapon responds to inputs. for example a downswing is easier due to the weight of an axe, but an upswing is harder, for exactly the same reason. similarly, its easier to stop an upswing than a down swing as a result of weight.

so you're right that the greataxe would respond differently, but it don't be 'just as hard'. in fact, all swings with such a weapon would function similar to a horizontal swing, but without the need to support the weapons weight.

as for range: the range only matters when the spell is initially cast (unless otherwise noted, see: witch bolt). you can cast a spell with a duration and then leave the range and the spell would persist. so firing an arrow with levitate cast on it wouldn't be a problem, at least from a range perspective. its just a question of if you believe that the spell itself actively opposes movement such that the target doesn't retain momentum

[Segev]

By the RAW and RAI, no, a levitating greataxe does not become a light weapon. If you can talk your DM into it, though, have fun! That said, wouldn't the same logic that makes it Light also dramatically reduce the damage it does, since its weight is a big part of the reasoning behind it hitting so hard? And if you argue that its momentum is still the same, then you have argued against it ceasing to be Heavy, let alone becoming Light.

[Chronos]

Levitating creatures or objects can move freely horizontally, but can only move vertically when the caster wills it. And when I picture someone wielding a greataxe, or almost any other weapon, there's a lot of movement in all three dimensions involved.

I suppose you could do things like holding an axe horizontally, levitating it, setting it spinning, and giving it a good shove to "throw" it at a distant enemy. Doing this might eliminate or at least greatly extend the maximum range, but it'd also apply disadvantage, at least, because that's not the way anyone ever trained to use a greataxe. I might even say "disadvantage and also no proficiency".

[kazaryu]

as for range: the range only matters when the spell is initially cast (unless otherwise noted, see: witch bolt). you can cast a spell with a duration and then leave the range and the spell would persist. so firing an arrow with levitate cast on it wouldn't be a problem, at least from a range perspective. its just a question of if you believe that the spell itself actively opposes movement such that the target doesn't retain momentum im wrong here, levitate does have the specific wording that restricts its range. it must stay within range of the spell. so it definitely wouldn't work for an arrow. that's my mistake.


Levitating creatures or objects can move freely horizontally, but can only move vertically when the caster wills it. And when I picture someone wielding a greataxe, or almost any other weapon, there's a lot of movement in all three dimensions involved.


this actually isn't explicitly true. the fact that you *can* change its vertical height doesn't have to imply that it can't otherwise move vertically. Thats a fair inherence if its how you want to play your game, but its not required by the text.