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Maat Mons
2023-08-24, 03:05 AM
Minor tangent: Capitalizing “for” looks wrong to me, but as best I understand, “looking for” is a phrasal verb, and all component words in a phrasal verb are capitalized in titles. Any grammarians want to weigh in?

On the actual topic, I’ve been thinking about what would constitute reasonable army compositions in Pathfinder, assuming armies were primarily low level, and almost wholly mundane. I’m hoping that restriction will result in typical large-scale battles having at least a vague, superficial resemblance to historical warfare. With that in mind, I designed some infantrymen with polearms, some non-mounted archers, and some horsemen. (Additional minor tangent, What’s the real term for non-mounted archers?) Could someone take a look and tell me how they’d fare against similarly leveled forces with a similar lack of magical support?


Human Fighter (High Guardian) 2
Str 17, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 8
Feats: Power Attack, Phalanx Formation, Combat Reflexes
Skill Ranks: Perception 2, Handle Animal 1, Intimidate 1, Ride 1, Survival 1
Gear: Banded mail, masterwork horsechopper, longsword, dagger, sling, sling bullets (10), belt pouch, uniform

Obligation (Ex): He can spend 1 minute of focused concentration each day to select a single ally as his obligation, vowing to keep that person alive for that day. Once he has chosen, he can’t change his obligation until the following day. If his obligation dies, the high guardian must atone for 1 week before he can select another obligation.

Right Hand (Ex): Can take a 5-foot step as an immediate action, as long as he ends this movement adjacent to his obligation. If he takes this step, he cannot take a 5-foot step during his next turn and his total movement is reduced by 5 feet during his next turn.

Defender’s Reflexes (Ex): Use Strength modifier instead of his Dexterity modifier to determine the number of additional attacks of opportunity he can make per round.

Unassailable Allegiance (Ex): +1 on Will saves vs. compulsion effects.

Human Fighter (High Guardian, Molthuni Defender) 6
Str 18, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 8
Feats: Power Attack, Phalanx Formation, Combat Reflexes, Dirty Fighting, Bodyguard, In Harms’s Way, Improved Trip, Greater Trip
Skill Ranks: Perception 6, Handle Animal 3, Intimidate 3, Ride 3, Survival 3
Gear: Masterwork full plate, +1 horsechopper, longsword, dagger, sling, sling bullets (10), belt pouch, uniform

Obligation (Ex): He can spend 1 minute of focused concentration each day to select a single ally as his obligation, vowing to keep that person alive for that day. Once he has chosen, he can’t change his obligation until the following day. If his obligation dies, the high guardian must atone for 1 week before he can select another obligation.

Right Hand (Ex): Can take a 5-foot step as an immediate action, as long as he ends this movement adjacent to his obligation. If he takes this step, he cannot take a 5-foot step during his next turn and his total movement is reduced by 5 feet during his next turn.

Defender’s Reflexes (Ex): Use Strength modifier instead of his Dexterity modifier to determine the number of additional attacks of opportunity he can make per round.

Unassailable Allegiance (Ex): +2 on Will saves vs. compulsion effects.

Armored Defense (Ex): He gains a bonus to his CMD against bull rush, dirty trick, drag, grapple, overrun, reposition, and trip combat maneuver checks. This bonus also applies to the DC of foes’ Acrobatics checks to move through squares he threatens. This bonus is +1 when he is wearing medium armor, and +3 when he is wearing heavy armor. When he is wearing heavy armor, he adds a +1 bonus on combat maneuver checks to trip.

Royal Protector (Ex): Bodyguard and In Harm’s Way feats, can be used only to improve his obligation’s AC or intercept a successful attack against his obligation.

Weapon Training (Ex): +1 attack and damage with polearms.

Fighter (Rough Rider) 3
Str 17, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 8
Feats: Power Attack, Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge, Skill Focus (Ride)
Skill Ranks: Perception 3, Handle Animal 1, Intimidate 1, Ride 3, Survival 1
Gear: Banded mail, heavy wooden shield, masterwork lance, longsword, dagger, sling, sling bullets (10), belt pouch, uniform, heavy warhorse, scale mail barding, military saddle, bit and bridle

Steadfast Mount (Ex): After he has spent 1 hour practicing with a mount, the mount gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC and a +1 morale bonus on saves, but only while he is mounted on it or adjacent to it.

Armored Charger (Ex): He doesn’t suffer armor check penalties on Ride skill checks. His mount’s speed is not reduced when carrying a medium load or wearing medium barding.

Fighter (Rough Rider) 6
Str 18, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 8
Feats: Power Attack, Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge, Skill Focus (Ride), Mounted Blade, Wheeling Charge, Lunge
Skill Ranks: Perception 6, Handle Animal 2, Intimidate 2, Ride 6, Survival 2
Gear: Masterwork full plate, heavy wooden shield, +1 lance, longsword, dagger, sling, sling bullets (10), belt pouch, uniform, heavy warhorse, scale mail barding, military saddle, bit and bridle

Steadfast Mount (Ex): After he has spent 1 hour practicing with a mount, the mount gains a +2 dodge bonus to AC and a +2 morale bonus on saves, but only while he is mounted on it or adjacent to it.

Armored Charger (Ex): He doesn’t suffer armor check penalties on Ride skill checks. His mount’s speed is not reduced when carrying a medium load or wearing medium barding.

Mounted Mettle (Ex): He and his mount gain a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when he is mounted or adjacent to his mount.

Human Fighter (Drill Sergeant) 2
Str 14, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 8
Feats: Deadly Aim, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Volley Fire
Skill Ranks: Perception 2, Handle Animal 1, Intimidate 1, Ride 1, Survival 1
Gear: Scale mail, masterwork mighty composite longbow (Str 14), common arrows (20), flight arrows (20), longsword, dagger, uniform, belt pouch

Tactician (Ex): As a standard action, he can grant Volley Fire to all allies within 30 feet who can see and hear him. Allies retain the use of this bonus feat for 4 rounds. Allies do not need to meet the prerequisites of these bonus feats. He can use this ability once per day.

Human Fighter 6
Str 14, Dex 18, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 8
Feats: Deadly Aim, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Volley Fire, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Point Blank Master, Clustered Shots
Skill Ranks: Perception 6, Handle Animal 3, Intimidate 3, Ride 3, Survival 3
Gear: Full plate, +1 mighty composite longbow (Str 14), common arrows (20), flight arrows (20), longsword, dagger, uniform, belt pouch

Tactician (Ex): As a standard action, he can grant Volley Fire to all allies within 30 feet who can see and hear him. Allies retain the use of this bonus feat for 6 rounds. Allies do not need to meet the prerequisites of these bonus feats. He can use this ability twice per day.

Armor Training (Ex): Whenever he is wearing armor, he reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor by 1. In addition, he can also move at his normal speed while wearing medium armor.

Weapon Training (Ex): +1 attack and damage with bows.

On the issue of level range, I initially was planning for Fighter 1 to be the minimum standard for professional soldiers, with Warrior 1 being used for levied troops, and higher-level Fighters being seasoned veterans. But the more I looked at it, the more it seemed that various important and even fundamental aspects of the builds couldn’t come online at 1st level. I mean, did you know a Cavalier’s mount isn’t “trained for war” until he reaches 4th level? Good luck making the DC 20 check to control that thing in battle with any reliability at 1st level. And other classes don’t tend to have a way of eliminating the armor check penalty on Ride, making most of them unable to fulfill the heavily-armored mounted warrior archetype at low levels too. So, at least for this particular professional army, soldiers aren’t considered fully trained until level 2 or 3, depending on role.

After I decided the archers and infantrymen (are non-mounted archers considered infantry?) needed to start at level 2, but before I decided the cavalry needed to start at level 3, I came up with the following approximate correlation between rank and level:

Private (Recruit): Warrior 1
Private (Basic): Fighter 1
Private (Trained): Fighter 2
Corporal: Fighter 3; commands Team (4 soldiers)
Sergeant: Fighter 4; commands Squad (2-3 Teams)
Lieutenant: Fighter 5; commands Platoon (2-4 Squads)
Captain: Fighter 6; commands Company (3-5 Platoons)
Major: Fighter 7; commands Battalion (3-5 Companies)
Colonel: Fighter 8; commands Regiment (3+ Battalions)
Brigadier: Fighter 9; commands Brigade (3 Regiments)
General: Fighter 10; commands Division (3-5 Brigades)

It’s loosely based on a hodgepodge of the militaries of various English-speaking countries. But I eliminated a lot of ranks. Mostly the ones with multi-word titles. Those were too confusing for me. I mean, Sergeant Major is higher than Sergeant, but Major General is lower than General? Why doesn’t adding “major” have a consistent effect? If you ask me, Major General should be higher than General, and the rank below General should be Minor General.

NPCs get favored class bonuses, right? I didn't stat these guys up with extra skill ranks, so I guess they picked extra hit points.

Bucky
2023-08-25, 03:30 PM
Non-mounted archers are just archers.

The longbowmen should be split between Drill Sergeant feats, or 1/2 to 1/3 Drill Sergeant with the rest some other archetype or vanilla Fighter. The only point in having all of them grant the same feat is to avoid running out of total uses, but that's a tradeoff against the formation having more options for Teamwork or some archers who are debuff resistant due Bravery variants.

Regarding tactics, in an environment with AoE spells, the polearm formations would approach in loose successive lines with 15' or 20' separating adjacent men on the same rank; on contact, the second and maybe third lines would step up to close up the first line. This means the standard obligation target is the soldier in front of or behind you in approach formation, rather than the soldier beside you. There's also the tactical option to keep the front of the formation generally loose, to force enemies to move around more and thus maximize AoO opportunities. Of course, the loose formation also renders Right Hand less valuable.

Similarly, the archers approach in front of the front line of halberdiers, leaving gaps in their formation where the front halberdiers are. This lets them start shooting ASAP and filter back through the formation the round before melee contact.

The Halberdier Captain doesn't actually have any mechanical leadership function, so he's better off using his superior HD to lead in the literal sense by being in the front row and acting as an anchor and center for his subordinates to form up on. And this is only meaningful for smaller team sizes than you've given him responsibility for. So I think higher level fighters should mostly be regarded as senior sergeants, different from level 4 sergeants in competency and experience but not in responsibility level, while the platoon leaders and up are a different track that emphasizes skills relevant to commanding (e.g. Lore Warden), wide area group bonuses (e.g. Cavalier banner) or magic.

You should also have a smattering of specialists assisting the higher officers - WIS based survival/perception experts (Barbarian, possibly) and INT based experts (Lore Warden again) for monster ID purposes. At the lower rank, you should have a bit of skill diversity as well, with each squad having a Heal-trained medic and a climber.

Maat Mons
2023-08-25, 11:28 PM
For most of the time I was building the archers, I had them statted out using the Archer archetype, for +5 ft. to their range increments. Later, I started to think the 110 ft. range of composite longbows would be plenty on its own. Even later, I started statting out the archer captain, and got annoyed that he was trading Armor Training for something he’d never use. But if I the officers multiclass into something more leadershipy, I guess what the archetype does at higher levels doesn’t matter.

I think it would be kind of weird if the archers had Bravery when the front-line guys don’t. I was kind of disappointed at the lack of archetypes with direct applicability to archery. But then again, when I started looking for archetypes other than Archer, I was ruling out any that sacrificed Armor Training, for the sake of the archer captain. Maybe if I revisit the archetypes with the idea that no one is actually taking the later levels, I’ll find options I like more.

Honestly, I wasn’t even really thinking about using the Tactician ability to grant the Tactical feat to others. I was just looking at the passive benefit of having a bonus Tactical feat. A Drill Sergeant can give someone else his Tactical feat for a total of 4 rounds per day, but he has it available for his own use constantly.

What other Tactical feats would be good? Are Escape Route, Friendly Fire Maneuvers, and Shake It Off any good? Being able to grant Friendly Fire Maneuvers to allies seems like it could be for the archers in situations where friendly melee units were standing between them and their targets. And as an archer, having friendly melee units between you and your targets is highly desirable.

I was kind of figuring the Halberdier Captain would seek out individual tough enemies and trip them, giving each of his nearby subordinates an attack of opportunity. But you’re right that only a small fraction of his Company would be in a position to benefit. I guess a simple way to modify my rank/level correlation would be to go in steps of two levels. Though I really had hoped to build these guys to reflect a world in which even mid-level characters are rare and special.

I don’t know about Climb ranks. Can’t there just be a grappling hook and 50 feet of rope in the supply wagon? As it stands, they can all make the DC 5 check to climb a rope with a wall to brace against 100% of the time by taking 10.

Having someone around with the ability to stabilize dying characters would be super important, now that you mention it. A DC 15 Heal check and a use of a Healer’s Kit is one way to do it. With a Healer’s costing 50 gp and coming with 10 uses, that’s 5 gp per man saved. On the other hand, Wound Paste doesn’t require a roll. It costs 50 gp per pot, and a pot contains 5 doses. So that works out to 10 gp per man saved. A bit more expensive, but probably worth it for the 100% success rate. On the other, other hand, it’s magical in nature, and I was trying to avoid too much magic. If I were willing to up the army’s magic access, I’d probably just give them a few Adepts. Those guys can prepare Stabilize and cast it at will the rest of the day. Or I guess there are a few Traits that give at-will magical stabilization, though only at a range of touch. If I want to stay nonmagical and keep costs down, maybe the medic can have the Improvisational Healer feat?

Bucky
2023-08-26, 03:36 PM
You want both some Wound Paste (or other healing magic) on hand for emergencies and a medic in each squad to help injured soldiers recover.

Re: Climb ranks, you want one guy with a slightly better modifier to go up first and let down a rope if the grapples won't work for some reason.

Re: Halbardier Captain, if that's the intention then give him a rank of Company Champion and split out the actual command duties to a lower leveled but differently trained Company Lieutenant. The Champion can roam anywhere on the company's part of the battlefield to take care of anything that needs to be hit hard, while the Lieutenant tries to coordinate the whole company's movement from the back.

liquidformat
2023-08-26, 11:35 PM
I don’t know about Climb ranks. Can’t there just be a grappling hook and 50 feet of rope in the supply wagon? As it stands, they can all make the DC 5 check to climb a rope with a wall to brace against 100% of the time by taking 10.

How are you taking 10 to climb on an active battlefield?

If you are allowed to use books outside of Pathfinder, Arms and Equipment Manual has pricing for a grappling ladder.

I think the basic idea you would need to go with is have an archer fire a grappling arrow, a specialized unit (berserker) climb up first to clear out the area and attach the grappling ladder then all of your troops going up the ladder.

Maat Mons
2023-08-27, 07:16 PM
Oh, I’m sorry. I didn’t realize we were talking about storming a fortification. I was only thinking about navigating terrain while getting the force to the battlefield. Okay, let’s see. Climbing a knotted rope with a wall to brace against is a DC 0 climb check. They’ve got -6 from armor and +3 from Strength. So, I need to get +2 from somewhere for them to be able to make the roll on a 1. A single rank in Climb would do it, thanks to the +3 for having a rank in a class skill. I could shift some skill points around, but I’m not sure if I should make them less intimidating, worse at reading maps, or less skilled with horses. Strictly speaking, none of those skills are essential. (Well, the Lancers kind of need the horse-centric stuff, but I wasn’t planning to send the cavalry scaling up a wall.) Alternately, I could switch their favored class bonus from HP to skill points. Or, I guess, I could even switch their 13 Wis over to Int, though that would hurt their Will saves and Perception.

I guess a grapple arrow has a maximum range of 300 feet. Is there any particular reason you couldn’t tie 6 different 50-foot lengths of silk rope together for use with it? Or would 30 pounds of rope be too much for the arrow to carry?

Maybe I’d make things easier on myself if I just assumed that magic items are as common as their prices imply. I’m not sure who exactly is spending their time making one potion of Cure Light Wounds each day for a 25 gp profit instead of some wondrous item or another for a profit of 500 gp per day, but apparently, if you’ve got 50 gp, you have no trouble finding those potions for sale. Every NPC I’ve statted out has more than 100 gp left in their equipment budget. I could give each one two potions of Cure Light Wounds, for self-medication. Or I could give them one potion of Cure Light Wounds and one pot of Wound Paste, though Wound Paste can’t generally be used on yourself. If there’s a medic on the team tough, I’m not sure when it would ever be desirable for a soldier to administer a potion to himself. He’d need to withdraw from the front lines before drinking it, or the attacks of opportunity he’d provoke would likely outweigh the healing he receives. But if he withdraws from the front lines, it’s then easy for the medic to take care of him.

If there’s going to be a medic, I suppose he should carry a wand of Cure Light Wounds. It’s not exactly cheap, at 15 gp per use, but I was already thinking of expending a use of a Healer’s kit on each wounded soldier, and those are 5 gp per use. I think the benefits of proper healing over just stabilization easily justify the tripled cost. The medic would need to be 3rd level for the wand to fall within his wealth-by-level. He’d only have 30 gp left over for other gear, but leather armor, a dagger, a soldier’s uniform, and a belt pouch only add up to 14 gp.

The only reason the Lancers need to be able to make a DC 10 Ride check is to have their mounts attack in the same round the Lancers themselves attack. But the Lancers and the mounts have different reaches that don’t overlap. Does this mean I shouldn’t bother with the horses’ attacks?

Bucky
2023-08-27, 08:24 PM
The riders also have swords, so that Ride check is relevant.

liquidformat
2023-08-28, 10:27 PM
To be frank I don't think the Halberdier need ride or handle animal, they are just general ground troops and would normally either be marching to battle or be in wagons. Horses are too expensive to have all your ground troops riding to battle.

I also think it makes sense that your lancers are level 3 or 4; mounted knights were normally expensive both in training and in equipment and being level 3 or 4 reflects that very well. They are typically used to breakup enemy formations and cause chaos your infantry can take advantage of so they tend to be a smaller elite branch of your army.

Figuring out your level of magic in your world and military is fairly important, since an army with access to magic is a lot different than one without. Adding in troops like bards that can be relatively low level but help disseminate orders and provide boosts to all of your troops are quite powerful in a war setting for example. You could have a troop of bard drummers and the beats they play give orders to retreat advance and so forth while also giving bonuses do to bardic music. Having magical healers doing their healer thing, having wizards casting low level spells in groups such as grease can be very powerful.

SoleAr
2023-08-29, 03:48 AM
Pikemans were majority of troops in high-middle ages from historical point of view. So young recruit should be Warrrior1 with LongSpear. Most users of halbers were Swiss, who invented it. If our War1 had survived some fighting, he would be War3-4. If he became professional military (mercenary), he will retrain his lvls of War to Fighter. Some of them could be halberdies, but most prize fighters (doppelzoldners) were two-handed swordsmans. So Fighter 4-6 is professional mercenary with some training ang lot of battle experience (and has a THSword). He could be a minor commander, but not necessarily. Most of the time commanders were ruling-class: noblemans, knights, etc. Cavaliers (or Warpriest for church hierarchy) is a class especially match for them. So Cav1 is a young squire and Cav3-4 is a full-strength knight, and Cav6 is minor commander.
Again, from historical point of view, english longbowmen is spelless ranger or slayer (he hunt a lot in peaceful time). Italian/French crossbowmen is a Fighter (he is professional mercenary).
Slings in inventory of your military is logical from DnD rules but incorrect historically.

Maat Mons
2023-08-29, 06:41 PM
Okay, so being able to make a DC 10 Ride check 100% of the time still has value. Does it have enough value to keep Skill Focus (Ride) as a feat for the Lancers? Otherwise, I might replace it with Mounted Blade.

If I ditch Handle Animal and Ride on the Halberdiers, what should I spend those skill points on instead? Climb has already been suggested. I could put both ranks into Climb, but the second one wouldn’t push me past any new thresholds. I’d still be in the position of a knotted rope and wall to brace against to ensure success. Where should the second point go? Survival’s already at the point of being able to hit the DC 15 check to avoid getting lost by taking 10. Swim seems like a lost cause. Well, I guess out-of-combat swimming isn’t a lost cause. More Intimidate, maybe?

Is there any class that gives group buffs that are both long-range and continuously active? All I can come up with so far is a Bacchanal Skald who is constantly drinking. That doesn’t seem very healthy, but it would be kind of funny for the commander to be shouting orders in between prolonged swigs.

I was thinking of using Warrior to represent levied troops and Fighter to represent the professional standing army. The levies would probably be Warrior 1 with Power Attack, Phalanx Formation, splint mail, and … I’m not sure on which polearm.

I actually was considering some elite 4th-level Fighters with Whirlwind Attack. (It can be done using Fighter’s ability to swap feats at levels divisible by 4.) I kind of liked the visual of them cleaving through several men at a time with a zweihander (greatsword). On the other hand, mechanically, Whirlwind Attack is hard to use, because you need to move into position the round before, and no sane enemies will stay put if you’re lined up for a really good swing.

I’ve been struggling to find a balance between things that are mechanically good in D&D and things that make sense realistically.

liquidformat
2023-08-31, 01:15 AM
Honestly you are playing in a fantasy world that doesn't work on the same mechanics as the real world so you should embrace that. Fact is if combat worked in the real world like it does in PF then armies would have developed differently to better suit the rules of their world. As far as extra skill points goes unless you are going to put a point into heal which isn't a bad idea I would dump extra points in intimidate.

On a side note, I have never understood why anyone in DnD world would ever willingly take levels in warrior, it doesn't seem like the requirements for fighter are much more demanding. In my stuff I always removed warrior and just use fighter.

Bucky
2023-08-31, 08:22 PM
Re:Levies
I'm assuming that the statboxes are for a standing army that has the training time to professionalize. In an all-out war, these guys might be the entirety of the first force to take the field. But they'd be quickly joined by conscripts of skill or utility classes whose main job is something else but who can contribute in combat by virtue of superior hit dice or relevant experience - e.g. Experts of level 3-6 and Rogues of level 2-4, armed with weapons appropriate for their proficiency and slotted into the Fighter formations to fill out their numbers. The composition depends on what "low magic" means for the distribution of NPC classes; the army would happily take level 2+ Kineticists, Rangers, Alchemists etc. off the street as long as NPCs with those classes would be on the street in the first place.

It's not CR efficient, but it's better for winning the war than leaving the Rogues and Experts to their own devices.

E: tldr: the army doesn't get to decide the details of their levies' builds, only which ones to bring to the battle.

Maat Mons
2023-09-04, 01:12 AM
I’ve never quite settled on how I feel about NPC classes. Sometimes I want them to exist so 1st-level characters with PC classes have someone to feel superior to. Sometimes I want to run a setting where a robust public education system has lead to everyone having a PC class.

I’ve been giving some thought to using Kineticists as medics. One issue is that they lack access to the Stabilize orison, meaning they can’t stop bleeding from a distance, they’d need to get right up next to the patient. Another issue is that the lore of Kineticist seems to imply they’re not especially common. That bit about their abilities “awakening” at dramatic moments, plus that bit about almost never being able to find mentors, make it sound like you need a rare, inborn gift. Water Dancer Monk might fix that second part. As far as I can tell, the only requirement for becoming a Water Dancer Monk is being taught at the right monastery… and being Lawful, of course.

Bucky
2023-09-04, 01:47 AM
If you want to relax the requirement that the army is "almost wholly mundane" they can just make the army 5% adept/cleric/druid/oracle and that solves the medic problem.

Maat Mons
2023-09-04, 07:48 AM
Hunter, Inquisitor, Nature-Bonded Magus, Omdura, Psychic, Shaman, Warpriest, and Witch would also work, if the criterion is getting Stabilize. But the reason I was specifically looking at Kineticist is because they can restore HP at-will. I mean, so can Shaman and Witch, but a single person can only benefit from Healing Hex once per day. The only limit on Kinetic Healer is that the recipient takes nonlethal damage that can’t be healed, but which all disappears after a full night’s sleep, regardless of how much of it they have.

What’s a good ration of military units? I’ve tried to look up historical numbers, but they seem to vary wildly. I’ve heard people talk about forces that have one archer for every two spearmen as being “archery heavy.” I’ve also heard people suggest there have been forces made up of as much as 75% longbowmen. Everyone says the proportion of cavalry to infantry was all over the place across different time periods. I found one person saying something like 1 cavalry to every 7 or infantry, but they didn’t mention what time period they were talking about. I read someone quoting a treatise that suggested a proportion of 50%, 25%, and 25%, but I can’t remember whether it was cavalry, spearmen, or ranged units that got the 50%, and I can’t for the life of me find the post again.

Should there be dedicated scouting units? Would they actually sneak around themselves, or would they just have a bird they can talk to who does all the scouting? What ways are there to gain birds that are smart enough to be good scouts, but also cheaper and faster to replace than familiars? The only thing I can find is Courtly Hunter. Admittedly, a Courtly Companion does make a pretty good scout.

Bucky
2023-09-04, 09:52 AM
Historically, most scouting would be done by unspecialized soldiers, mounted if the terrain permits. Empires would often have a specific subject that provided scouts, though they would fight together in a regular infantry formation after battle joined.

I put together a scouting arrangement for an ambitious encounter vs. an army that uses magic for a more modern style. The basic scouting was done by flying animal companions and familiars. However, those wouldn't be able to describe what they saw in detail. Instead, they'd see something of interest and circle it in a figure-8 pattern. This would get the attention of an actual scouting party patrolling ahead of the army, which would be a single wildshaped druid, monks and/or mounted soldiers. The scouting party would then look and decide whether to fight it themselves, report back or ignore it. Additionally, there were some divinations in use from HQ, but they're not sufficient to replace scouting.

Sadly, I never finished the broader campaign content around it due to the difficulty of mapping combat that could happen anywhere in a hundred square miles, and only the chronologically early portion of what I did finish survives. I do have some descriptions of scouting groups, but not the associated statblocks as these were other people describing them to the party:

Mounted scouts: Five horsemen towing a Floating Disc spell
Raiding Party: two dozen regular infantry (Fighter2 or Warrior3), in armor and armed with polearms, axes, bows and javelins, led by an apparent Cleric (with holy symbol)
Elite scouts: Six well-known monks from a local monastery... DC15 Knowledge:Local will peg their levels as equal to the party's. The six monks might've divided themselves into two different encounters in practice.
The PCs: The party is likewise an outlying component of an army, possibly with some low level assistance they've recruited or borrowed.

The last is implicit in the scenario, but raises the general point that the army can hire existing adventuring groups to do the scouting.

Maat Mons
2023-09-04, 05:59 PM
For getting detailed reports from the Familiar, the best I can come up with are the Beastkin trait, two levels in Shaman with the Nature spirit, a level in Witch, or two levels in Sylvan Trickster rogue. Or, I guess, just using one of the types of familiar that can talk. Raven, parrot, and thrush are the ones, I think.

Bucky
2023-09-05, 11:22 AM
Re-scouting is necessary, moreso for animal companions than familiars, because they have low Int and struggle to make even DC 10 Knowledge checks. So a report from a parrot familiar might be something like:

"I was scouting in the area of the village on the stream 10 miles to the south. About six miles east of the village along the stream, I saw 25 people with weapons and armor resting and didn't recognize them. About four miles southwest of the village, I saw five people including a half-elf on horses moving towards the village accompanied by some kind of magical construct. They were wearing what I think was livery, but I wouldn't know whose. They didn't seem to be hurrying. I saw a group of six people wearing cloaks one mile to the northwest of the village and walking north."

If you already had enough information to tell which of those you needed to be concerned about, you wouldn't need to re-scout. As is, you don't even know which of those three reports are your own men without further investigation.