Proposed Monk Changes (Second Attempt)

[ZRN]

A few weeks ago I proposed some changes to the OneDND monk to address its issues. There was a good amount of debate that followed, and I think I can summarize the problems people see as follows:

1. Not enough ki, particularly at low levels
2. Not enough defense at low levels (this one gets better later on)
3. A lot of reliance on bonus action for baseline DPS (your turn feels wasted if you're not flurrying)
4. Not enough damage, particularly at high levels (11+)
5. Not enough ASIs for a class that wants to buff a lot of stats
6. No useful applications of weapon mastery
7. Can't use martial weapons

Taking those into account, here are my new proposed changes (from the most recent playtest version), addressing each of the above:

1. Add a bonus action at level 2: "Battle Meditation: spend your bonus action to focus your mind and regain one spent Discipline (ugh) point, up to half your maximum (rounded down). Starting at monk level 11 you regain 2 points with this ability, and at level 17 you regain 3."

2. Change Deflect Missiles to work against melee or ranged attacks. EDIT: This is probably too powerful. Maybe either (a) make it cost a ki every time (and you get the redirect for free if you drop the attack to zero damage) or (b) let you do is WIS times per day and spend a ki to use it after that? Possibly combined with (c) drop the damage reduced a bit?

3. Essentially give unarmed attacks the "nick" property by getting rid of the Bonus Unarmed Strike property of Martial Arts and replacing it with: "When you make an unarmed attack with the Attack action, you can make one extra unarmed attack as part of the same action."

4. Change Flurry of Blows to one attack as a bonus action at level 2, and add Improved Flurry of Blows at level 11: "When you use Flurry of Blows, you can instead spend 2 Discipline points to make two extra unarmed attacks instead of one."

5. At levels 3/6/9/12/15/18, you get a new ability called Holistic Training, which is just half an ASI (add 1 to any ability score, to a maximum of 20.)

6. You're now basically getting Nick for free, but I'd also replace the level 3 Warrior of the Hand ability ("Open Hand Technique") as follows:

Open Hand Stances: As a bonus action you can enter a combat stance. Choose any weapon mastery property (except Flex); your unarmed attacks now have that property, even if they would not normally qualify. You also gain advantage on your next attack before the end of your next turn.

7. I'd include Kensei in the PHB and make sure it can use martial weapons. I agree that weapon-monks should be a thing, but they're specific enough to get their own subclass.

This obviously wouldn't address every problem with the monk (I'm largely not touching the subclasses), but does it work as a start?

[sithlordnergal]

Sooo, you'll want to be very careful with the nick idea. Because it can, and will, break things. Heck, I have a Monk/Beast Barbarian, and they could make 5 attacks in a round at level 8, all at advantage. And that's just a regular Open Hand Monk/Beast Barbarian.

[ZRN]

Sooo, you'll want to be very careful with the nick idea. Because it can, and will, break things. Heck, I have a Monk/Beast Barbarian, and they could make 5 attacks in a round at level 8, all at advantage. And that's just a regular Open Hand Monk/Beast Barbarian.

The change I'm proposing doesn't actually increase the max number of attacks you could make from the current playtest monk, since you could use two daggers + FoB. It just lets you use your unarmed attacks instead of daggers.

[Nagog]

1. Add a bonus action at level 2: "Battle Meditation: spend your bonus action to focus your mind and regain one spent Discipline (ugh) point, up to half your maximum (rounded down). Starting at monk level 11 you regain 2 points with this ability, and at level 17 you regain 3."


Thile interesting, this ability feels rather powerful at higher levels. Is it limited in uses per day? Limiting it to uses per day equal to your Wisdom modifier will keep it strong at low levels but prevent it from being absolutely busted at higher levels.



2. Change Deflect Missiles to work against melee or ranged attacks.


This seems out-and-out too powerful. I'm not in agreement with OneD&D's Deflect Missiles, but applying it to any attack rolls, in tandem with later proficiency in all saving throws, means that any build that doesn't rely on making multiple attack rolls is going to be ineffective.



3. Essentially give unarmed attacks the "knick" property by getting rid of the Bonus Unarmed Strike property of Martial Arts and replacing it with: "When you make an unarmed attack with the Attack action, you can make one extra unarmed attack as part of the same action."
[QUOTE]

As has been stated, this is also very, very exploitable as a Multiclass dip. Beast Barbarian is already a top-tier Multiclass Dip choice at 3 levels for a stacking Extra Attack, and that's connected to both the Rage resource and the anti-spellcasting stipulations that come with that. As-is, this would come close to Hexblade levels of dip bait.

[QUOTE]
5. At levels 3/6/9/12/15/18, you get a new ability called Holistic Training, which is just half an ASI (add 1 to any ability score, to a maximum of 20.)


This isn't bad at all. It's essentially an extra 3 ASIs, without the Feat option and drawn out a lot more. Could be very nice.



6. You're now basically getting Nick for free, but I'd also replace the level 3 Warrior of the Hand ability ("Open Hand Technique") as follows:

Open Hand Stances: As a bonus action you can enter a combat stance. Choose any weapon mastery property (except Flex); your unarmed attacks now have that property, even if they would not normally qualify. You also gain advantage on your next attack before the end of your next turn.


I do very much like this. It grants Open Hand a lot more variability and adaptability, though I would put a Ki cost and a time limit on it.



7. I'd include Kensei in the PHB and make sure it can use martial weapons. I agree that weapon-monks should be a thing, but they're specific enough to get their own subclass.


I generally agree with this. Kensai has needed some serious revision, even before OneD&D made martial weapon mastery a thing, and including it in the PHB seems like a good change considering it's got a solid, base Monk flavor (even if the mechanics ultimately fall short, but that's PHB subclasses for ya)

[ZRN]

Nagog, thank you for the thoughtful analysis.


Thile interesting, this ability feels rather powerful at higher levels. Is it limited in uses per day? Limiting it to uses per day equal to your Wisdom modifier will keep it strong at low levels but prevent it from being absolutely busted at higher levels.

I'd want to playtest more to see what makes sense. For example, you might be able to drop the new level 7 feature and replace Perfect Self with something good. But yes, wis mod/day makes sense to me.


This seems out-and-out too powerful. I'm not in agreement with OneD&D's Deflect Missiles, but applying it to any attack rolls, in tandem with later proficiency in all saving throws, means that any build that doesn't rely on making multiple attack rolls is going to be ineffective.

Maybe save the deflect portion for ranged attacks?



As has been stated, this is also very, very exploitable as a Multiclass dip. Beast Barbarian is already a top-tier Multiclass Dip choice at 3 levels for a stacking Extra Attack, and that's connected to both the Rage resource and the anti-spellcasting stipulations that come with that. As-is, this would come close to Hexblade levels of dip bait.

Again, this is already in the playtest for every weapon-using class (even monks) through the Nick property. When they shake out the wording on Nick and Light (weapon property) there might be some more fine-tuning or restrictions with the wording here, but on a basic level this is just trying to give monks parity with rogues (who get to attack 2x/turn without using their bonus action from level 1 thanks to Nick).

[sithlordnergal]

The change I'm proposing doesn't actually increase the max number of attacks you could make from the current playtest monk, since you could use two daggers + FoB. It just lets you use your unarmed attacks instead of daggers.

I haven't checked out the current play-test monk. I'm just wary of handing out a free attack. The Beast Barbarian has that already, and they can easily get 5 attacks a turn by level 8 with a single multiclass. They can get 4 attacks almost immediately.

[ZRN]

I haven't checked out the current play-test monk. I'm just wary of handing out a free attack. The Beast Barbarian has that already, and they can easily get 5 attacks a turn by level 8 with a single multiclass. They can get 4 attacks almost immediately.

1. Definitely check it out (https://media.dndbeyond.com/compendium-images/ua/ph-playtest6/OJVW7QLuHjEFCCVs/UA-2023-PH-Playtest6.pdf)- the monk is bad, but also my comments here make more sense with that as context. Like, they already handed out the free attack, to everyone except full-casters (and honestly to some of them too). This is just letting you use your fist instead of two daggers to get it.

2. Having a bunch of attacks isn't overpowered if those individual attacks don't do a ton of damage.

[ZRN]

This seems out-and-out too powerful. I'm not in agreement with OneD&D's Deflect Missiles, but applying it to any attack rolls, in tandem with later proficiency in all saving throws, means that any build that doesn't rely on making multiple attack rolls is going to be ineffective.


ON rethinking this and comparing to similar abilities in other classes, I'm in agreement - you'd need a limit on uses and/or a reduction in effectiveness here.