OneD&D Warlock - An idea

[Oramac]

Now before I get started, I'm just spitballing here. Not saying this is better or worse or otherwise; just throwing an idea out there.

Ok, now that that's out of the way, I had a random thought for updating the 5e warlock. We know that Pact Magic is staying, but also that people want to see more ability to cast their spells. So I propose a couple of changes:

- Give warlocks 1/3 casting beginning at 1st level. The scaling is the same as AT/EK, except that they gain two 4th level spell slots at 19th and 20th levels. This allows for significantly more spell slots, most of which are at a lower level, giving the warlock much needed longevity. These all recharge on a long rest.

- Change Mystic Arcanum to give warlocks 1-2 spell slots that always cast at a level equal to half the warlock level, rounded down (max 9th). This would naturally have to come online sooner; perhaps around 5th level. This maintains the "weirdness" of the warlock without sacrificing too much of their identity. These recharge on a short rest. In this way, warlocks still have some dependency on short rests, but also a reason to need long rests.

- Invocations could more or less remain as-is, though the invocations that grant higher level spells might need some tweaks.

Again, just throwing something against the wall to see what sticks, as the saying goes.

[ZRN]

In the same spirit, what if they basically kept the full 2014 structure but added the following invocation options?

Eldritch Echoes
Prerequisite: Warlock level 5
You gain three additional level 1 spell slots that are restored when you complete a long (not short) rest.

Greater Eldritch Echoes
Prerequisite: Warlock level 9
You gain two additional level 2 spell slots that are restored when you complete a long (not short) rest.

Superior Eldritch Echoes
Prerequisite: Warlock level 12
You gain two additional level 3 spell slots that are restored when you complete a long (not short) rest.

This would let you build up a decent roster of daily spell slots if you want them on top of your normal short-rest pact magic spell slots. (Note they don't require the earlier versions, so you can mix and match depending on what slots you want.) Level requirements and number of slots per invocation are a guess - not sure if those are balanced.

[Oramac]

In the same spirit, what if they basically kept the full 2014 structure but added the following invocation options?

snip

That's....actually much cleaner than what I had in mind! Though I fear making them invocations would effectively just turn it into a required tax rather than a fun choice.

Perhaps a class feature that grants the 1st level slots, and invocations to make the class feature better?

[Psyren]

Warlocks having both spellcasting (1/2 or 1/3) and pact magic is something I could live with, so long as it was balanced well.

[paladinn]

Honestly I could see the warlock merged with the sorcerer class. Now that the wizard (and all casters) are "spontaneous", there's not much a reason for a discrete sorcerer class.

1/2 casting plus invocations would make a good variant sorc. Maybe change up the invocations based on the sorc subclass. Allow light armor and simple weapons (like the sorc had in 3.5). Bada-bing!

[Monster Manuel]

That's....actually much cleaner than what I had in mind! Though I fear making them invocations would effectively just turn it into a required tax rather than a fun choice.

I agree; I really like the idea in general, but worry that it becomes an invocation tax. This is kind of what they tried to do in the playtest, with eliminating all of the "cast X spell once per long rest" invocations with a more flexible expanded Mystic Arcanum, but in order to come close to the number of spells per day of a full caster, you had to use essentially all of your Invocations on Mystic Arcanum, so no fun stuff like Agonizing Blast or Devil's Sight. You could cast about the same number of spells per day of a full caster, but the tax you had to pay was all of the stuff that made the Warlock interesting, and I think that's where a lot of the discontent about the revisions stemmed from.

My thought was to do what's being suggested here (partial caster advancement, supplemented by pact magic slots that refresh on a short rest, and further supplemented by Invocations to fill in the gaps), but just add more Invocations. That has other balance impacts, though, and making the Invocations give multiple spell SLOTS instead of a single casting of a spell, would do the same thing, much more cleanly.

The actual numbers of slots needs some fine-tuning. I think we would have to reduce the number of Pact Magic slots overall, but I think in theory this works, and wouldn't be surprised if this is similar to the way they wind up going.

[diplomancer]

In the same spirit, what if they basically kept the full 2014 structure but added the following invocation options?

Eldritch Echoes
Prerequisite: Warlock level 5
You gain three additional level 1 spell slots that are restored when you complete a long (not short) rest.

Greater Eldritch Echoes
Prerequisite: Warlock level 9
You gain two additional level 2 spell slots that are restored when you complete a long (not short) rest.

Superior Eldritch Echoes
Prerequisite: Warlock level 12
You gain two additional level 3 spell slots that are restored when you complete a long (not short) rest.

This would let you build up a decent roster of daily spell slots if you want them on top of your normal short-rest pact magic spell slots. (Note they don't require the earlier versions, so you can mix and match depending on what slots you want.) Level requirements and number of slots per invocation are a guess - not sure if those are balanced.

I like that idea, and I specially like it being invocations, and, therefore, optional. And I wouldn't call them "auto-picks" or "taxes". They are good, but at a similar level of other good invocations.

[Psyren]

I don't like the Invocation-slots route because it doesn't solve their weird multiclassing issues. I'd rather them have both Spellcasting and Pact Magic if Pact Magic isn't going anywhere.

[diplomancer]

I don't like the Invocation-slots route because it doesn't solve their weird multiclassing issues. I'd rather them have both Spellcasting and Pact Magic if Pact Magic isn't going anywhere.

But it wouldn't solve the "weird multiclassing issues". Ok, let's say they get one third-casting Spellcasting and regular Pact Magic. Now their one third-casting Spellcasting interacts with Spellcasting for multiclass purposes, but Pact Magic still doesn't interact with it at all. So you still have Spellcasting slots and Pact Magic slots, just as before.

And if they went this route, the "power budget" of the one-third Spellcasting would have to come from somewhere, so something else in the class is getting nerfed. Unlike if they were new invocations.

[P. G. Macer]

RE: Weird multiclassing issues

Couldn’t WotC just revise the multiclassing rules so that Pact Magic spell slots can only be used on spells from the Warlock class?

[Oramac]

RE: Weird multiclassing issues

Couldn’t WotC just revise the multiclassing rules so that Pact Magic spell slots can only be used on spells from the Warlock class?

They certainly could. But why fix the root of the problem (multiclassing) when they can just release a semi-new edition?

[Person_Man]

I’d prefer for all half-casters to use something like Pact Magic, and for Warlocks to be half-casters spells progression with more spell slots per rest. (And also more Invocations to make up for the nerf).

So Warlock, Paladin, Ranger, and Artificer only get 1st through 5th level spells over the course of 20 levels. And they auto-scale to the maximum level you can cast using Pact Magic. But they refresh on a Short Rest, and have more spell slots than what the current Warlock gets at mid-high levels.

Less bookkeeping for all concerned, more consistency across classes, easier for new players to learn, and easier for designers to balance.

[Psyren]

But it wouldn't solve the "weird multiclassing issues". Ok, let's say they get one third-casting Spellcasting and regular Pact Magic. Now their one third-casting Spellcasting interacts with Spellcasting for multiclass purposes, but Pact Magic still doesn't interact with it at all. So you still have Spellcasting slots and Pact Magic slots, just as before.

And if they went this route, the "power budget" of the one-third Spellcasting would have to come from somewhere, so something else in the class is getting nerfed. Unlike if they were new invocations.

Pact Magic not interacting with Spellcasting is already the status quo. But this way, Warlocks would at least get some benefit out of multiclassing instead of the big fat nothing they get now. And this way you could even place additional restrictions on Pact Slots, such as them only being usable with Warlock spells instead of fueling smites etc the way they are now.


RE: Weird multiclassing issues

Couldn’t WotC just revise the multiclassing rules so that Pact Magic spell slots can only be used on spells from the Warlock class?

As above, I'm in favor of this, but ideally the multiclass warlocks would have fractional spellcasting progression as a fallback to compensate.