OOTS #1286 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Ivrytwr]

Just awesome.
Haley makes a nice catch, the humor of the elders, and the "new" dungeon.
Though it does feel like they just entered the realm of the last boss ...
Thanks, Giant.

[Majiy]

Hm, this might get interesting. Facing themselves, facing one's own flaws maybe? Looking forward to what's coming.

[Nazzo, the 102nd]

Ah, this Dungeon of Dorukan feeling. Old times, old times. :smallbiggrin:

It's like one of those video-games where the final boss is actually all bosses together, and you have to beat them all in just one go.

Or, for those of you that played the OotS board game, we've just revealed a dungeon room with the plain old yellow floor. :smallsmile:

[Hardcore]

Yeah, Dorukans dungeon. I also thought of the corridor with illusion traps. Still, just because it looks the same...

[Hackman]

"Dun dun dun", as Elan would say.

[Fenyang]

Amazing How after so many years we could recognize those walls and floor só fast. Back to the First strips!!!

[Psyren]

I have never in my life channeled Elan more than the second panel :smallbiggrin:

And yet, I identify most strongly with Haley's attitude throughout :smalltongue:

[Vessyra]

I love Haley's Elan-catch, very cute.

Bets on whether young Serini actually had similar taste in dungeon to Dorukan, or whether this whole corridor is a giant illusion?

[Xihirli]

I KNEW Trigak would make a triumphant return!

[hamishspence]

That sure brings back memories.

[Goosefarble]

I've always said I wanted the final arc to take them right back to how they were at the start - adventurers exploring a megadungeon :')

Looks like it won't be quite the final final arc, but I'm still stoked! Aren't we like, super close to the 20th anniversary of the first strip going up too?

[hroþila]

I just hope there's not too much self-deprecating anti-DCF humour incoming :smalltongue:

[Carl]

Um, okay...

I think i agree with another posters "Dun, Dun, Dun..."

[pendell]

My money says illusion, culled from their memories.

Still, one out-of-story advantage is that the old dungeon is no doubt easier to draw than Rich's current work, even if the old-school makes him cringe now.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Fyraltari]

Damn, harkening back to the very beginning, that's a sign that the story is close to the end...


I KNEW Trigak would make a triumphant return!
Dun dun dun!

I just hope there's not too much self-deprecating anti-DCF humour incoming :smalltongue:
Well nobody commented on Haley checking the trap without leaving the floor, so who knows.

[HUMVEE Driver]

First time back here; The Dungeon of Dorukan!

[Toper]

Love this comic so much! That orange floor! I had to go back to the original to see that the stone block pattern is technically new, it fits so well.

[Fyraltari]

Reminds me of the Dungeon of Dorukan!

That is the joke.

[Precure]

Of course! The best place to hide the gate is right under another gate.

Jokes aside, I hope we properly adress Elan's crime.

[Shining Wrath]

Cliffhanger sensors registering a positive, Cap'n.

Suggest Warp Factor 8 in reverse, I think Roy is looking at something he really doesn't want to fight.

Also, Serini may be older, but is she wiser?

[hamishspence]

Love this comic so much! That orange floor! I had to go back to the original to see that the stone block pattern is technically new, it fits so well.

I think it was present on the Comics panel depicting the Order as a whole:

https://www.giantitp.com/Comics.html

very early - maybe right after the No Cure For The Paladin Blues art upgrade?

[Tzardok]

My money says illusion, culled from their memories.


I'll put twenty on "hired the same interieur designer".

[Psyren]

I just hope there's not too much self-deprecating anti-DCF humour incoming :smalltongue:

I just know the Giant is going to dunk on his old art. (I would love an updated version of the Dorukan style though.)


I KNEW Trigak would make a triumphant return!

Holey Brotherhood - you might be right!

[KorvinStarmast]

Ah, this Dungeon of Dorukan feeling. Old times, old times. :smallbiggrin: At least there's an upgrade to the art (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html).

Or, for those of you that played the OotS board game, we've just revealed a dungeon room with the plain old yellow floor. :smallsmile: Advertising pitch? :smallwink:

I also thought of the corridor with illusion traps. Still, just because it looks the same... Yes. The first thing that crossed my mind after "original dungeon" was "illusion"

Bets on whether young Serini actually had similar taste in dungeon to Dorukan, or whether this whole corridor is a giant illusion? I'll lean toward illusion. Serinillusion mentioned an unfair dungeon ... things are not what they seem.

I KNEW Trigak would make a triumphant return! We'll see. Perhaps Trigak's ghost will feature.

I just hope there's not too much self-deprecating anti-DCF humour incoming :smalltongue: Likewise.

Suggest Warp Factor 8 in reverse, I think Roy is looking at something he really doesn't want to fight. Or he's looking at a treadmill. "OotS" on Nightmare difficulty. Only 1285 or so strips to go ...

Also, Serini may be older, but is she wiser? She's like aged beer: older Budweiser. :smallyuk:

Not sure that I understand Belkar's complaint:
Is it even really a dungeon if everything's frozen?
Am I missing a reference to something?

[Satinavian]

Well, maybe it is Durokans Dungeon. Sending the most troublesome adventurers that got through all the monsters to whatever nonsense that caster bred out is a strangely rogueish thing to do.

[RMS Oceanic]

I'm reminded of the final stage of System Shock 2 where you find yourself briefly back on Citadel Station.

[TerrickTerran]

Nearing full circle. It's kind of exciting.

[Reboot]

Man, where is Basic Potion Guy now? He came so very prematurely!



Not sure that I understand Belkar's complaint:
Is it even really a dungeon if everything's frozen?
Am I missing a reference to something?

Saying it's too easy to be a dungeon?

[nogall]

maybe - just maybe - the final dungeon will be made of parts of all the previous dungeons, some kind of meta-dungeon. It may involve other planes or time travel? not familiar with all d&d rules, not sure how this could work (of course, I know Rich doesn't stick hard with the rules nowadays...)

[Fyraltari]

Not sure that I understand Belkar's complaint:
Is it even really a dungeon if everything's frozen?
Am I missing a reference to something?

Yeah: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1279.html)

Let me guess: [the Final Dungeon]'s an intricately balanced ecosystem that maintains itself.
It would have been if Lirian had played ball. Instead I put everything in stasis traps and called it done.
They're planning on avoiding the traps to leave the defense intacts for Team Evil to show up.

[KorvinStarmast]

As to the first strip: that sales pitch/barker's call by Serinillusion (in panel 1) reminds me of the Tomb of Horrors.
I need to dig up my old copy of that module and see which taunting words Acererak used to bait / tempt adventurers into attempting to best his traps or (more likely) die.

Why the portal to Dorukon's dungeon?

Serini the Rogue (back when she built the dungeon), had seen all of the other party members in action. If her gate defense's final dungeon finished off with a portal to Dorukon's dungeon, that makes a certain tactical sense.
In D&D 3.5e, Wizards are Tier 1.
Whomever penetrated the final defenses of her gate should be confronted with a more difficult / dangerous gate defender: an epic level wizard.

[Edward15]

Ooh, I just thought of something. Suppose the gauntlet isn't over? What if Young Seirini incorporated elements from the other four Gates' defenses into the final dungeon?

[SlashDash]

Haley catching Elan was brilliant.

Beyond that, there's no way this is the end.
This is more like the mandatory "let's go down memory lane" the way every show does in its last season.

[oball]

Did everyone get through the portal, I wonder? We only see Elan, O-Chul, Haley, Roy and Serini from the 3rd panel on. Could just be an art choice by Rich to save on drawing everyone, but maybe the dungeon is designed for a maximum party size of 5 adventurers so the portal automatically shuts off when that many have gone through - we already know that Serini doesn't remember every detail about it so she may have forgotten about that.

[Precure]

Ooh, I just thought of something. Suppose the gauntlet isn't over? What if Young Seirini incorporated elements from the other four Gates' defenses into the final dungeon?

Dorukan: Intellectual Property Theft is not a joke, Serini!

[Tubercular Ox]

I've always said I wanted the final arc to take them right back to how they were at the start - adventurers exploring a megadungeon :')

I remember that, and kudos to you. I also remember calls for a mirror match where the party is defending the gate and Team Evil is attacking, and kudos to those people. Odds for that going up.


I'll put twenty on "hired the same interieur designer".

Or she hired the same dwarven contractors as Dorukan, the guys who cut out the water dungeon for a new dartboard or something. It makes sense, pretty standard to push for word of mouth sales.


Did everyone get through the portal, I wonder? We only see Elan, O-Chul, Haley, Roy and Serini from the 3rd panel on. Could just be an art choice by Rich to save on drawing everyone, but maybe the dungeon is designed for a maximum party size of 5 adventurers so the portal automatically shuts off when that many have gone through - we already know that Serini doesn't remember every detail about it so she may have forgotten about that.

omgomgomg, I was just talking in another thread about Roy, Haley, Serini, and O-Chul having things in common... and in another other thread I said Elan was going to end up with Haley after a party split.

And it would be one of the few advantages of a really big party that you could off-panel a bunch of characters and not have the audience realize it's a split right away.

Or, you know, they're off panel. We'll see.

[Gift Jeraff]

Somehow, the Dungeon of Dorukan returned.

[Precure]

Somehow, Gift Jeraff returned.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Triple fantasy! TRIPLE FANTASY!!

Seriously, I’m excited to see what this most unfair dungeon is about to bring, especially with the updated art style.

[OvisCaedo]

I'm pretty sure that old dungeon no longer exists in the present, so it'll be interesting to see exactly what's going on here.

[theangelJean]

I'm leaning towards this being either time travel or a memory, personally.

After all, didn't the Dungeon of Dorukan self-destruct?

Also, we still need to see what happened between the Order of the Scribble. On-panel, for preference.

[Jay R]

A. I am reminded that the Giant often says that high-level casters screw up story-telling. I note that neither Durkon nor Vaarsuvius have fallen down the bug swirling portal (yet).

B. Dammit, it's happening to me again! A few months ago, Star Trek: Picard featured changelings right before a game in which I had doppelgangers take over the PCs' home village, and I'm about to start an adventure in which the PCs need to find an artifact hidden in a mountain that they previously blew up.

[rasborry]

Hmm, they're entering a nondescript hallway. There's going to be suspicious runes on the wall again or something, isn't there?

[Crusher]

Surely there’s a potion vendor somewhere.

Ooh, are the OotS the final boss?

[Hasric]

Since strip 1 moved to rules v3.5, is this dungeon v3.0 or an earlier version too?

[Garwain]

How can it be 20 years ago - and yet I instantly recognized the dungeon. I'm actually hyped, this should be good. And if you happen to be Rich: amazing stuff!

[Tubercular Ox]

Surely there’s a potion vendor somewhere.


Here? (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1201.html) Or are you suggesting there should be another? Or am I just overthinking this?

[Lord Torath]

I'm pretty sure that old dungeon no longer exists in the present, so it'll be interesting to see exactly what's going on here.This.

I mean, Elan did touch the Self-Destruct button (Do not touch. Ever! No, not even then!), the party was arrested for destroying the gate, and the Godsmoot confirmed that there was only one gate left. I'm pretty certain this is not, in fact, the Dungeon of Dorukan. Just one that looks similar.

Also, the rift/gate is at the north pole (at least according to the Crayons of Time info the party got from Lord Shojo)

[faustin]

I KNEW Trigak would make a triumphant return!

You mean Fruit Pie the Sorcerer, right?

[AstralFire]

It can't be the real dungeon for two reasons

One, the original doesn't exist anymore. As others have mentioned, it blew up.

Two, each rift was supposed to have a unique challenge. If it was literally just that dungeon, anyone who's trying to get to all the rifts would barely even notice a speed bump.

I'm torn on whether it is an illusion though. We just did a bunch of illusions with Girard's Gate.

[Goosefarble]

I KNEW Trigak would make a triumphant return!


You mean Fruit Pie the Sorcerer, right?

You're both wrong. It's the long-awaited return of goblin teenager in varsity football jacket from comic #93, panel #6. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0093.html)

[Lurkmoar]

So we're at the part of the story where we go back to the beginning?

[Gift Jeraff]

Somehow, Gift Jeraff returned.

No one's ever really gone.

[Crusher]

Here? (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1201.html) Or are you suggesting there should be another? Or am I just overthinking this?

It is a brand new boss fight so you'd expect another potion vendor.

Well, really I just forgot he'd already used that joke.

[Emperor Time]

That is the joke.

That right. But it would be really weird if in the next page shows the illusions of the party from the very first page show up. And they can only complete this part of the dungeon by interacting with those illusions in a certain way.

[Fyraltari]

I think it's just built in the same style as Dorukan's Dungeon.

How can it be 20 years ago - and yet I instantly recognized the dungeon. I'm actually hyped, this should be good. And if you happen to be Rich: amazing stuff!

Well, we had a refresher. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1270.html)

[brian 333]

Two observations:

At least Haley knows where to find the ladies' room, and

Roy needs to go up two levels this time.

[KorvinStarmast]

This is more like the mandatory "let's go down memory lane" the way every show does in its last season. I hope not.

Dorukan: Intellectual Property Theft is not a joke, Serini! *chuckle*
"There's a Mister Sunny on Line 1, he'd like to have a word!"

Somehow, the Dungeon of Dorukan returned. It's blowed up, sir!

Also, we still need to see what happened between the Order of the Scribble. On-panel, for preference. A Serini flashback?


A. I am reminded that the Giant often says that high-level casters screw up story-telling. I note that neither Durkon nor Vaarsuvius have fallen down the bug swirling portal (yet). Ooh, nice take. But O-Chul is there.

... I'm about to start an adventure in which the PCs need to find an artifact hidden in a mountain that they previously blew up. Please don't tell Phoenix Phyre about that ... we are in campaign 3 and have encountered a few side effects of his campaigns before our campaign 1. In our campaign 1, someone (not us, really!) are associated with a mountain being destroyed. He doesn't need that idea to torture us with. :smallbiggrin:

Ooh, are the OotS the final boss? That's a neat idea.

Also, the rift/gate is at the north pole (at least according to the Crayons of Time info the party got from Lord Shojo)

Two, each rift was supposed to have a unique challenge. If it was literally just that dungeon, anyone who's trying to get to all the rifts would barely even notice a speed bump.

I'm torn on whether it is an illusion though. We just did a bunch of illusions with Girard's Gate. In book 5? How many RL years ago was that? We just did what? :smalleek:

So we're at the part of the story where we go back to the beginning? Which means that a drunken Inigo Montoya (https://clip.cafe/the-princess-bride-1987/i-am-waiting-you/)may make an appearance.

[chrestomancy]

Wooo! I recognize those walls!

[Blue Dragon]

dun dun DUN!!!!

[chrestomancy]

I KNEW Trigak would make a triumphant return!

See, this is why I want upvote capability.

[chy03001]

What a call-back :-D

[Daisho]

Roy needs to go up two levels this time.
You think they need to go up two levels to set the trap? I imagine Xykon will assume that the gate's guarded by the higher level monsters on the lower levels, so the Order surely need to go down at least one level. Or do their level best to spring a trap strong enough to level the opposition on this level. :smallwink:

[Alexandrite]

Even if it doesn't end up being the Big Final Battle I hope we get a callback to the big splash panel with Xykon and his allies.

[alowe]

Yup, I recognised that last panel immediately. Never expected nostalgia.

[Grey Watcher]

Nice to know those dwarven contractors (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) got more business out of The Order of the Scribble.

[KorvinStarmast]

The following have not yet been shown as having gone through the portal:
Belkar, Lien, Vaarsuvius, Minrah, Sunny, Durkon, and animal buddies.

I don't think a "Split the Party, Part Deux" is in the offing.
I expect that next strip they'll all be accounted for.

[Ron Miel]

I'm pretty sure that old dungeon no longer exists in the present, so it'll be interesting to see exactly what's going on here.

I predicted years ago that the party would eventually time-travel. Maybe my prediction is coming true.

[KorvinStarmast]

Just a quick "love the art" call out for panel two.
I like how Roy's ankle (left foot) is flexing as he walks into the portal.
Little touches like that please me.

[Beni-Kujaku]

It's not just the color of the floor and walls, it's the perfectly horizontal demarcation that makes the "Final Dungeon" look so dated. The last horizontal lines were in 1280, and they had multiple colors as well as shadows. We haven't had flashy colors like that on horizontal wall-floor demarcations since gnome town (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0965.html), 300 pages ago (for those in the back, that's 9 years ago).

I fear that, since Serini hasn't checked on her actual Gate for so long, this is actually Dorukan's dungeon, and Serini's Gate was destroyed by the same self-destruct button we all know. I mean, aren't Nale's "outdated legions" exactly what Serini would use to protect her final dungeon. She stole monsters from Dorukan to fill the first stage of her dungeon, maybe Dorukan stole monsters from her final defense to fill his own basement.

[AstralFire]

In book 5? How many RL years ago was that? We just did what? :smalleek:


Okay, so it's been a long time in real life, but STORY wise, it hasn't been that long. It would be weird to have two gates back to back be focused on illusion at their pinnacle, I think, especially when Serini has gone for more what we might call practical effects than MGI (magic generated images).

[Ornithologist]

My guess is she literally just convinced Dorukans construction crew that it was part of his dungeon they were working on.

[Fyraltari]

I fear that, since Serini hasn't checked on her actual Gate for so long, this is actually Dorukan's dungeon, and Serini's Gate was destroyed by the same self-destruct button we all know. I mean, aren't Nale's "outdated legions" exactly what Serini would use to protect her final dungeon. She stole monsters from Dorukan to fill the first stage of her dungeon, maybe Dorukan stole monsters from her final defense to fill his own basement.

that doesn't make sense. Dorukan's Dungeon was nowhere near the North Pole where Kraagor's Rift is.

[Resileaf]

that doesn't make sense. Dorukan's Dungeon was nowhere near the North Pole where Kraagor's Rift is.

Not to mention that we know for a fact that Serini/Kraagor's gate is not destroyed.

[faustin]

My guess is she literally just convinced Dorukans construction crew that it was part of his dungeon they were working on.

To be honest, I can believe Serini being able to pull such scam.

[gatemansgc]

Amazing How after so many years we could recognize those walls and floor só fast. Back to the First strips!!!

especially with how much the giant has upgraded his style!

[NobleCuriosity]

“Same construction company” seems most likely to me, personally.

Given that everyone is shown exiting the portal feet-first, I actually do see how Serini thought they’d be fine—How did O-Chul and Roy rotate so much in the air in such little time? It can’t be that large of a fall since no significant fall damage marks and Haley was able to catch Elan.

Maybe it’s just a joke about different classes’ tumble skills. I’m definitely reading too much into it.

[Sneak Dog]

Is this about to be a joke about expecting traps in an ordinary empty hallway?


“Same construction company” seems most likely to me, personally.

Given that everyone is shown exiting the portal feet-first, I actually do see how Serini thought they’d be fine—How did O-Chul and Roy rotate so much in the air in such little time? It can’t be that large of a fall since no significant fall damage marks and Haley was able to catch Elan.

Maybe it’s just a joke about different classes’ tumble skills. I’m definitely reading too much into it.

The oversized pauldrons on their shoulders make them top-heavy, not to mention the spinning momentum they got from the swirly portal the panel before.

[Unoriginal]

All around me are familiar places
Worn out PCs, worn out farces
Bright and early for dungeon races
Going nowhere, going nowhere

[Lexible]

I KNEW Trigak would make a triumphant return!

I am stanning this so hard!

[AstralFire]

“Same construction company” seems most likely to me, personally.

Given that everyone is shown exiting the portal feet-first, I actually do see how Serini thought they’d be fine—How did O-Chul and Roy rotate so much in the air in such little time? It can’t be that large of a fall since no significant fall damage marks and Haley was able to catch Elan.

Maybe it’s just a joke about different classes’ tumble skills. I’m definitely reading too much into it.

That seems a good bet. Both classes have poor reflex saves and notoriously small class skill lists and skill points in that edition of the game.

[KorvinStarmast]

My guess is she literally just convinced Dorukans construction crew that it was part of his dungeon they were working on. Works for me.
(https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html)

Not to mention that we know for a fact that Serini/Kraagor's gate is not destroyed.


I fear that, since Serini hasn't checked on her actual Gate for so long, this is actually Dorukan's dungeon, and Serini's Gate was destroyed by the same self-destruct button we all know. I mean, aren't Nale's "outdated legions" exactly what Serini would use to protect her final dungeon. She stole monsters from Dorukan to fill the first stage of her dungeon, maybe Dorukan stole monsters from her final defense to fill his own basement. Nope. See panel 2 of strip 844.
(https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0844.html)

To be honest, I can believe Serini being able to pull such scam. Yes.

“Same construction company” seems most likely to me, personally.
{snip} Maybe it’s just a joke about different classes’ tumble skills. I’m definitely reading too much into it. That's how it came across to me. Serini and Haley landed gently, Haley caught Elan, the other two missed their tumble checks. Should be fun when:
V, Durkon, Belkar, Minrah, et all come through.
My guess:
Belkar's dex lets him land gently, Mr Scruffy lands on his feet (cat), V floats down (flies), Minrah and Durkon land with a thud, Bloodfeast lands on Mr Scruffy, Blackwing and Sunny can fly so no worries there.

[Errorname]

Heh heh heh, going back to where it all started.

[NobleCuriosity]

Is this about to be a joke about expecting traps in an ordinary empty hallway?



The oversized pauldrons on their shoulders make them top-heavy, not to mention the spinning momentum they got from the swirly portal the panel before.

That’s believable enough (though it does seem unlikely that the pauldrons with no helmet would exceed all the legs and skirt…but maybe the chest plate is enough?). But then why did Elan rotate basically the same amount, in the opposite direction?

The postulate that the portal applies different, random angular momentum explains all of that. It does require Haley and Serini to be VERY good at manipulating their moment of inertia (like how a spinning ice skater who pulls her arms in spins faster), but that’s probably part of Tumble skill.

I’m satisfied.

[Psychronia]

Amazing how an orange floor and grey wall can be so...iconic.

Welcome back, fellas. Though I have to assume this isn't the exact same dungeon considering where we left it. Maybe time travel, considering the punchline just then, but there's probably a catch if so.

Young Sereni had showmanship. Old Sereni is too grumpy and just wants to have a retirement.

[Ionathus]

Amazing how an orange floor and grey wall can be so...iconic.

I have genuine goosebumps right now. I don't know what it is about that final panel that's hitting so hard, but it is.

I mean, "back to the beginning" is a common enough trope that I shouldn't be that surprised. But I am, and it's an absolute delight of a surprise.

The future is bright and nostalgic and exciting! I can't wait to see where this goes!

(and as a side note, the composition of it too, and Roy's dialogue & expression, really does a good job to sell the "WHAM Factor". It's just a great final panel.)

[Ruck]

Did everyone get through the portal, I wonder? We only see Elan, O-Chul, Haley, Roy and Serini from the 3rd panel on. Could just be an art choice by Rich to save on drawing everyone, but maybe the dungeon is designed for a maximum party size of 5 adventurers so the portal automatically shuts off when that many have gone through - we already know that Serini doesn't remember every detail about it so she may have forgotten about that.

I really doubt that will be the case. The art choice and not overcrowding the comic seems far more likely. I don't think Rich has ever done something like that, and it feels like it would be a cheap trick at this point.

As far as the final dungeon looking so much like Dorukan's... I'm just curious what the storytelling purposes of this will be. I guess there are some obvious ways to reminisce about where the Order started and how far they've come, but I feel like there's going to be more there that I haven't really figured out what it is yet.

[JT]

The following have not yet been shown as having gone through the portal:
Belkar, Lien, Vaarsuvius, Minrah, Sunny, Durkon, and animal buddies.

I don't think a "Split the Party, Part Deux" is in the offing.
I expect that next strip they'll all be accounted for.

Doubt it's a split party. We have off-panel people saying "Oww!" and "Sorry!" in panel 6.

It (obviously) did not happen, but it would have been hilarious if the portal had closed immediately after Serini went through, blocking the full order, since they don't have the ButtMark.

[Kancsar]

🎉 Woohoo! Did not realized I needed that until I saw it, and now it is obvious OOTS HAD to make a big callback to the first dungeon with the last dungeon.

Opportunity for jokes on how dungeons have difficulty scaling their difficulty to high level adventuring parties.

Serini mentioned "unfair" so I'm expecting some rooms with strong anti-magic fields.

[Malfarian]

Ok when is the first Brick actually drawn? I just flipped through a bunch and don't see it.

[137beth]

Oh my Northern Gods, is that the color scheme of the Dungeon of Dorukan, but with the bricks on the wall drawn in and Roy in the current art style?

[LuPuWei]

What the hell? This dungeon's gonna knock them on their ass... :smalltongue:

[Jens Lyndelle]

Time to go down a level

[Precure]

Well, we had a refresher. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1270.html)

That's a different place. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0032.html)

[BrotherHanson]

I still think S caved too easily before. Perhaps they're about to "go back in time" in the form of forgetting the last ~1200 strips...

[Jens Lyndelle]

I expect a total reversal of the Dungeon of Dorukan, the OotS sit waiting by the Gate and its self destruct button tryna figure out how to open it while Xykon and crew wade through monsters and different levels.

Maybe they'll even meet their Linear Guild (a living wizard, Redcloak's niece, Sabine, a large cat and a protean) (I in no way expect this)

[Fyraltari]

That's a different place. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0032.html)

Same building.

[TuringTest]

Serini mentioned "unfair" so I'm expecting some rooms with strong anti-magic fields.

I think Serini got herself a portable version, so that it can be used at any room ;-)

[Jay R]

Ok when is the first Brick actually drawn? I just flipped through a bunch and don't see it.

I'm not sure it ever was, in the strip. This may be the first panel with bricks (https://www.giantitp.com/Comics.html).

edit: Whoops. Here they are, in this flashback (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1270.html).

[Precure]

Same building.

Still a different place with different walls.

[hamishspence]

Walls are basically the same as those of the walls in the yellow-floored corridor - it's the floor that's different, being green instead of yellow:


https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0030.html
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0032.html

[Amarsir]

I still think S caved too easily before.

Me too. I'm waiting for the twist. But this hallway is an interesting development.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Roy's fall looks like it might have been fatal in real life, so a case for cure minor wounds in OotS.

I love how after obtaining a hundred hoards of monsters, swiss cheesing the fabric of space, and anti-magicking a mountain what everyone is wondering is how she has orange paint.

[Funkeel]

Maybe they'll even meet their Linear Guild (a living wizard, Redcloak's niece, Sabine, a large cat and a protean) (I in no way expect this)

That’s definitely not going to happen but it is a hilarious mental image
-Redcloak’s Niece is also missing an eye, but a different eye
-Everyone comments on how the MID looks nothing like a protean to spite the forum
-The large cat is an existentialist
-The wizard is one of those political puppetmastery types. Xylon 1-shots him.

[Phhase]

Okay, to be clear: this is ABSOLUTELY building up to a role-reverse scene of Xykon walking into Roy's throne room with troops arrayed, right?

[ManuelSacha]

Whoa.
I had chills... :smalleek:

[NobleCuriosity]

What the hell? This dungeon's gonna knock them on their ass... :smalltongue:


That’s far too cushioned a descent for this dungeon, it seems; looks to me like it’ll knock them on their shoulder.

[Chronos]

A minor note: This hallway matches neither the banner (https://www.giantitp.com/Comics.html) nor Batter's Eye (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1270.html): In both of those, the mortar is lighter than the blocks, but here, the mortar is darker than the blocks.

And I'm putting my bet down on time-travel shenanigans.

[KorvinStarmast]

Doubt it's a split party. We have off-panel people saying "Oww!" and "Sorry!" in panel 6. OK, I didn't see that as "off panel" but that makes sense.


have been hilarious if the portal had closed immediately after Serini went through, blocking the full order, since they don't have the ButtMark. *No tramp stamp, no service!*

I expect a total reversal of the Dungeon of Dorukan, the OotS sit waiting by the Gate and its self destruct button tryna figure out how to open it while Xykon and crew wade through monsters and different levels. That would be funny.


And I'm putting my bet down on time-travel shenanigans. You would say that, wouldn't you? (ref to your user name)

[NobleCuriosity]

A minor note: This hallway matches neither the banner (https://www.giantitp.com/Comics.html) nor Batter's Eye (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1270.html): In both of those, the mortar is lighter than the blocks, but here, the mortar is darker than the blocks.

And I'm putting my bet down on time-travel shenanigans.

Those are some nice catches with the mortars! I’m guessing that’s a clue to the readers this is not the dungeon of Dorukan, merely reminiscent of it in a way that will cause the order to think back on things.

I’m betting against you on time travel. Stasis is one thing, but as far as I’m aware actual significant time travel requires outright DM fiat, even in 3.5 (unsurprisingly, given how convoluted, confusing, and insanely powerful it would be if players could do it in a controlled way, even at steep cost), and Serini doesn’t seem to have access to that kind of power. Heck, even the GODS in this world don’t have that kind of power, or they would have time traveled to before the Snarl was created and prevented it from being created.

“Serini and Dorukan hired the same construction company” is a much simpler explanation.

[Bedinsis]

I've not paid much attention to the latest pages, so this might be far off, but my initial thought was that Sunny did appear in Dorukan's dungeon (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0032.html), so it makes sense if there was a close connection between it and Kraagor's tomb. Perhaps that's what we're seeing now.

[gerryq]

I think it was present on the Comics panel depicting the Order as a whole:

https://www.giantitp.com/Comics.html

very early - maybe right after the No Cure For The Paladin Blues art upgrade?


The bricks in the wall are bigger.

[Psepha]

Okay I think Haley catching Elan might be one of my favourite panels in the whole comic.



We haven't had flashy colors like that on horizontal wall-floor demarcations since gnome town (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0965.html), 300 pages ago (for those in the back, that's 9 years ago).

WHAT? 9 years?! Don't be ridiculous, it can't possibly be. Let me go look at the year on that comic OH MY GODS IT'S BEEN 9 YEARS! Wow, can't believe how long I've been enjoying this comic, and I started reading well before that comic :smallsmile:


Also I was totally ready to say "but wait we already saw the previous dungeon depicted in a flashback, and the floor was green there" but then I went back and had a look at Sunny's very first appearance and, yep, the floor was green for that one section. So bravo for attention to detail Giant

[Precure]

Walls are basically the same as those of the walls in the yellow-floored corridor - it's the floor that's different, being green instead of yellow:


https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0030.html
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0032.html

No, that was a different place as well, a room next to the corridor (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0029.html), despite of having the same floor.

[Provengreil]

Very interesting. Chalk me in for "it just looks the same", though, since the old one blew up.

Though a thought occurs that I don't see in the thread: are we supposed to be seeing stasis'd monsters yet? I kind of expected to see it pretty quickly.

[JonahFalcon]

Belkar failed a Spot Check.

[Fish]

This is when we get to see how much the Order has grown. That’s my vote for the purpose of this flashback dungeon. It looks the same, but it isn’t the same; they can’t use the same old tricks (luck, bickering, brute force, etc).

[Aquillion]

My guess is that the final dungeon is a gauntlet of everyone else's defenses.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Bets on whether young Serini actually had similar taste in dungeon to Dorukan, or whether this whole corridor is a giant illusion?
I know we'll have to split the pot, but I'm going to bet specifically that they used the same contractors.



Dorukan: Intellectual Property Theft is not a joke, Serini!
Out of all types of property, rogues respect intellectual the least.




Or he's looking at a treadmill. "OotS" on Nightmare difficulty. Only 1285 or so strips to go ...

Or he can't get the True Ending until New Game+...



Walls are basically the same as those of the walls in the yellow-floored corridor - it's the floor that's different, being green instead of yellow:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0030.html
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0032.html
Speaking of #32: I wonder if Sunny's related to that guy.

[Goosefarble]

Speaking of #32: I wonder if Sunny's related to that guy.

That is Sunny! You can see in the penultimate panel of #1270 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1270.html) that the flashback is to just after the mind flayer psionic danger has been dragged away by the lawyers - check the green floor!

[ScreamingGod]

Love that 3rd panel and might borrow it as my phone's home screen.

[Gopherofdoomies]

So I’ve seen a few people speculating about the order meeting their original version.

But what are the chances that they’ll meet OG Team Evil?

I wonder how Xykon would feel about another himself…

[Psychronia]

So I’ve seen a few people speculating about the order meeting their original version.

Oh dear. Is it time for Haley to return a big-ass diamond to herself?

[Tubercular Ox]

Snips, Snails and Dragon Tales has two bonus comics with the yellow floor, grey brick, darker mortar pattern: Uselessness Incarnate and Read It and Weep. It also has some comics with the same idea but different colors.

[RUTHless]

The fact that I could instantly recognize a two colour room after so long is fun. Anyway uh I audibly gasped and everyone in the room was confused lol

[JonahFalcon]

PS. Dwarf with plate mail falling on you. That's gotta hurt.

By the way, you all know this is an illusion, right?

[Elanfanforlife]

We can't say that for certain yet. It could still be that Serini just hired the same contractors.

[hamishspence]

No, that was a different place as well, a room next to the corridor (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0029.html), despite of having the same floor.

The point I was making was that the walls of the room with the green floor, where Sunny meets the Order momentarily, and the walls of the yellow-floored place, where Elan finds the secret door behind which is the mind flayer and, for a few moments, Sunny, are the same shade, within the limitations of the early strip art at least.


That is Sunny! You can see in the penultimate panel of #1270 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1270.html) that the flashback is to just after the mind flayer psionic danger has been dragged away by the lawyers - check the green floor!

Since the secret room and the yellow-floored place and the main corridor are so close, it's reasonable to presume that the secret room walls are made of the same stone as the yellow-floored place, and that the yellow-floored place walls are made of the same stone as the walls of the corridors that the rooms are attached to. Basic continuity of architecture.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

The fact that I could instantly recognize a two colour room after so long is fun. Anyway uh I audibly gasped and everyone in the room was confused lol
Same; I loved that moment of the last panel just activating a cluster of neurons in my brain with recognition. Fantastic moment of storytelling without words.

[The MunchKING]

I was thinking of the bit after the desert illusion where Roy said his dad said a properly executed illusion would leave you doubting your existence for the rest of your life.

What if it's ALL an illusion and they are still back there! *gasp*

:smalleek:

[Tubercular Ox]

I was thinking of the bit after the desert illusion where Roy said his dad said a properly executed illusion would leave you doubting your existence for the rest of your life.

What if it's ALL an illusion and they are still back there! *gasp*

:smalleek:

I keep thinking this would be the best way to protect a gate from scrying tactics. You set up a way to the gate that the divination is supposed to find, then you put a microcosm in that's programmed to show them discovering a scrying scam, then release them from it while pointing them out of the dungeon with memories of giving up looking for it.

As for the scrying scam, they fill that in with their own paranoia.

It's a rough plan. It's missing things. But I keep thinking I could make it work if the world were at stake.

[H_H_F_F]

Incredible reveal. So well done. Wow. I can't even express what about that got me so hard, but it did.


It's not just the color of the floor and walls, it's the perfectly horizontal demarcation that makes the "Final Dungeon" look so dated. The last horizontal lines were in 1280, and they had multiple colors as well as shadows. We haven't had flashy colors like that on horizontal wall-floor demarcations since gnome town (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0965.html), 300 pages ago (for those in the back, that's 9 years ago).

I fear that, since Serini hasn't checked on her actual Gate for so long, this is actually Dorukan's dungeon, and Serini's Gate was destroyed by the same self-destruct button we all know. I mean, aren't Nale's "outdated legions" exactly what Serini would use to protect her final dungeon. She stole monsters from Dorukan to fill the first stage of her dungeon, maybe Dorukan stole monsters from her final defense to fill his own basement.

Impressive detective work.

I'm not sure I follow the theory. Which gate do you think is still up, and where is it?



I’m betting against you on time travel. Stasis is one thing, but as far as I’m aware actual significant time travel requires outright DM fiat, even in 3.5 (unsurprisingly, given how convoluted, confusing, and insanely powerful it would be if players could do it in a controlled way, even at steep cost), and Serini doesn’t seem to have access to that kind of power. .

Just noting two things: first, DM fiat has definitely happened here before. The entirety of the snarl's work is DM fiat. Epic spells are super ambiguously written and can do anything that the plot needs - see familycide.

Second, there are some ways to time-travel in 3.5 outside of epic, but they require the sort of rules-****ery that does not belong in the comic - and frankly, not something I think the Giant is either interested in or capable of.

For a truly egregious example of what I'm talking about, read this Iron Chef build (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25235985&postcount=135) by Daremetoidareyou - utilizing, of all things, Shining Blade of Heironeous.

[bunsen_h]

I'm reminded of the final stage of System Shock 2 where you find yourself briefly back on Citadel Station.

There are several segments of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy game that involve returning to much earlier scenes, from differing points of view. Not all the way back to the "you're in your house with the bulldozer bearing down", but one takes you to the lane with the yappy dog.


Did everyone get through the portal, I wonder? We only see Elan, O-Chul, Haley, Roy and Serini from the 3rd panel on. Could just be an art choice by Rich to save on drawing everyone, but maybe the dungeon is designed for a maximum party size of 5 adventurers so the portal automatically shuts off when that many have gone through - we already know that Serini doesn't remember every detail about it so she may have forgotten about that.

At least Sunny did get his call-back.


My guess:
Belkar's dex lets him land gently,

And his ring of feather-falling, assuming that he wears it regularly. At this point, he might have other rings that he'd consider higher priority to be wearing at all times... assuming that the old rules about "no more than one magic ring per hand" are still in play.


That’s believable enough (though it does seem unlikely that the pauldrons with no helmet would exceed all the legs and skirt…but maybe the chest plate is enough?). But then why did Elan rotate basically the same amount, in the opposite direction?

The postulate that the portal applies different, random angular momentum explains all of that. It does require Haley and Serini to be VERY good at manipulating their moment of inertia (like how a spinning ice skater who pulls her arms in spins faster), but that’s probably part of Tumble skill.

Perhaps the portal swirly effect involves a rotating magnetic force, so it's the people who are wearing lots of ferrous metal who get spun around most. :smallbiggrin: Then there are diamagnetic effects, which repel rather than being attracted to moving magnetic fields.

One bit of data that led a lot of people to be skeptical of the supposed LK-99 superconductor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LK-99) from the get-go was the little video clip from the website of the institution that the discoverers were with. It showed a thin layer of the material deposited on a thin copper sheet, being repelled by a moving magnet — such repulsion is a property of a superconductor. Evidence! Except that it's also a property of a diamagnetic material such as copper. Exactly the same behaviour (https://youtu.be/QHPFphlzwdQ?si=IZq4sugXSh47M5q8&t=486) would be expected of that copper sheet by itself, without any LK-99.

[Aquillion]

There are several segments of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy game that involve returning to much earlier scenes, from differing points of view. Not all the way back to the "you're in your house with the bulldozer bearing down", but one takes you to the lane with the yappy dog.Very important because it gives you a second chance to take the vitally important action of feeding the dog a cheese sandwich.

(For those who haven't played the game, this is not a joke.)

[Tubercular Ox]

At least Sunny did get his call-back.

Please have mercy on me for my terrible memory, but when did we learn Sunny was male? I'm burdened in that my girlfriend for years was named Sunny and until now she was the only Sunny in my life.

[Aquillion]

Please have mercy on me for my terrible memory, but when did we learn Sunny was male? I'm burdened in that my girlfriend for years was named Sunny and until now she was the only Sunny in my life.
I actually think Sunny is they / them (which might even be the default for Beholders, since it's established that they reproduce by budding.) Here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1283.html), on the page that establishes that, Serini uses "them" to refer to them. The language used there is also conspicuously gender-neutral when referring to Beholders in general.

Here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1273.html) and on the page after that, Roy also avoids using gendered terms, but ofc Roy might just not know which one to use - Serini would know, though, and seems to use they / them.

[bunsen_h]

Very important because it gives you a second chance to take the vitally important action of feeding the dog a cheese sandwich.

(For those who haven't played the game, this is not a joke.)

Really? I didn't know that one got a second chance, only that it was necessary to feed the dog.


Please have mercy on me for my terrible memory, but when did we learn Sunny was male? I'm burdened in that my girlfriend for years was named Sunny and until now she was the only Sunny in my life.

I'm not sure if we have. I shouldn't have used the male pronoun; that was a mistake on my part. My apologies to the non-binary for the faux-pas.

[KorvinStarmast]

Please have mercy on me for my terrible memory, but when did we learn Sunny was male? I'm burdened in that my girlfriend for years was named Sunny and until now she was the only Sunny in my life. This has been discussed some months back. There is a line of thinking that Beholders (of which Sunny is more or less a copy) do not breed as humans do and may well be genderless/gender neutral.

It is still a correct English usage to use "he" for third person neutral, although that point gets arguments started so I'll stop there.

[pwning doodes]

My first thought is that the corridor is a complex illusion that transports you back to where your adventure started - INCLUDING resetting your levels and abilities to where they were! This wouldn't be a permanent effect, just while you were affected by the illusion. So Xykon might see a dungeon that he and Redcloak were clearing out after they first met. On the other hand, this would be a very big thing for Serini to forget to tell the Order, and the illusion wouldn't do anyone any good if it were symmetrical and affected everybody. Maybe the intent would have been for Serini to stand outside of the area while intruders got roughed up by imaginary monsters (the damage would presumably be real).

[woweedd]

I don't think this is an illusion: Been there, done that. And it's clear it's not the same dungeon as that one, ya knew, blew up, so...I don't know what this is? Time travel? Maybe...

[KorvinStarmast]

I don't think this is an illusion: Been there, done that. And it's clear it's not the same dungeon as that one, ya knew, blew up, so...I don't know what this is? Time travel? Maybe... The old "Serini used the same contractors as Dorukon" explanation seems less complex.

[woweedd]

The old "Serini used the same contractors as Dorukon" explanation seems less complex.

True, but i'm not entirely sure what the point of that would be.

[danielxcutter]

That uh… that was unexpected.

[Doctor West]

True, but i'm not entirely sure what the point of that would be.

Symbolism. Roy was in the middle of saying you can't go back to the past right as he walked into a dungeon crawl, right back where the story started. The visual similarity emphasizes this.

EDIT: It also happens to be the capitalized-for-emphasis Final Dungeon in the last book, which fits nicely with the story starting in Dorukan's.

[Ron Miel]

Why are Roy and Haley whispering? The telepathic bond seems to be still in effect.

[danielxcutter]

Force of habit, maybe?

[Edric O]

I really hope it's time travel, or something equally mind-screwy.

[Vikenlugaid]

Wow I could never have seen that coming.

But now than I have seen it, I would love to have Team Evil "playing the rol" of the Order in the first arc, being Roy the final boss of the Dungeon.

[KorvinStarmast]

I really hope it's time travel, or something equally mind-screwy. Not a fan of time travel stories, unless done really well. (All You Zombies being a gold standard).

Not seeing how time travel adds to this story, which has been on a timeline (race to the gates) since the end of Book 4. That's time tracking in a line in one direction.

For Vikenlugaid

...I would love to have Team Evil "playing the rol" of the Order in the first arc, being Roy the final boss of the Dungeon. I wonder if that would make Eugene proud: Roy has an improved status a BBGG. (Big Bad Good Guy). :smallsmile:

[bunsen_h]

I'm not sure if we have. I shouldn't have used the male pronoun; that was a mistake on my part. My apologies to the non-binary for the faux-pas.

Thinking about my thinking... there is a part of my brain which still interprets "Sunny" as a pun on "Sonny", i.e. Serini's little boy, and that's a distinctly male name.

[Lord Torath]

Thinking about my thinking... there is a part of my brain which still interprets "Sunny" as a pun on "Sonny", i.e. Serini's little boy, and that's a distinctly male name.Also: "I'm so bright, my mom calls me 'sun'!" says the not-too-smart (or possibly just ignorant) boy...

Also, it's fine, I myself was unconsciously thinking of Sunny as a girl. Beauty is in the eye of the Beholder That Thing With the Eyes, after all...

I'm in the "used the same contractors" group. What would the purpose of that be? How many of you ask your coworkers/friends/neighbors about what plumber/contractor/handyman they used when you need to have some work done? As far as Dorukan knew, they'd done a pretty decent job (even if they claimed he couldn't afford the Water Wing and skimped on 'unnecessary' ceiling reinforcement), so there's no real reason for Serini not to use them.

[bunsen_h]

Also: "I'm so bright, my mom calls me 'sun'!" says the not-too-smart (or possibly just ignorant) boy...

Hey, Kirk & Co. made approximately the same mistake in the Classic Trek episode "Bread and Circuses", with its improbable reproduction of the Roman Empire. "It's not the sun up in the sky." (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0708421/characters/nm0629667)


I'm in the "used the same contractors" group. What would the purpose of that be? How many of you ask your coworkers/friends/neighbors about what plumber/contractor/handyman they used when you need to have some work done? As far as Dorukan knew, they'd done a pretty decent job (even if they claimed he couldn't afford the Water Wing and skimped on 'unnecessary' ceiling reinforcement), so there's no real reason for Serini not to use them.

It makes sense to me, based on our limited information so far. I think it's much more likely than a jaunt to the actual Dungeon of Dorukan. An illusion that's programmed to take you back to "wherever you think your adventure began" would be a stretch.

[brian 333]

Also: "I'm so bright, my mom calls me 'sun'!" says the not-too-smart (or possibly just ignorant) boy...

Also, it's fine, I myself was unconsciously thinking of Sunny as a girl. Beauty is in the eye of the Beholder That Thing With the Eyes, after all...

I'm in the "used the same contractors" group. What would the purpose of that be? How many of you ask your coworkers/friends/neighbors about what plumber/contractor/handyman they used when you need to have some work done? As far as Dorukan knew, they'd done a pretty decent job (even if they claimed he couldn't afford the Water Wing and skimped on 'unnecessary' ceiling reinforcement), so there's no real reason for Serini not to use them.

Given the normal cost overruns associated with a job as large as the Redmountain project, and Serini's clever use of otherwise unnoticeable teleport traps, it is possible that the workers were never aware that their construction of the 'fake gate decoy passageway' occurred far from Redmountain. Serini probably slipped the blueprints in for the expansion, then removed them after the construction crew left and before she erased the teleport trap.

Happens all the time in construction.

[Ruck]

Symbolism. Roy was in the middle of saying you can't go back to the past right as he walked into a dungeon crawl, right back where the story started. The visual similarity emphasizes this.

I too vote for "symbolism," not "illusion" or "time travel" or anything else.

I do think it would be a neat parallel if, as some have suggested, we get an inversion of the first confrontation in Dorukan's dungeon, with the Order and their allies at the ready in the gate room, waiting for Team Evil to arrive.

[KorvinStarmast]

Also, it's fine, I myself was unconsciously thinking of Sunny as a girl.
Sunny von Bülow, perhaps? (For her it was a nickname).

When I was a kid, there was a popular song "Sunny" (Bobby Hebb, 1963) that was about a female love interest (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkUsGkxZSvM).

[Razian]

Rich Burlew. I hate and love you for what you did in the last comic.


Thank you so much.

Razian

[Mariele]

How has Serini been getting all these monsters to her dungeon? Portals? Did she have a portal to Durokan's Dungeon?

Edit: Does she have a portal to everyone's dungeons? Was her final plan to have everyone come and gang up on whoever made it to the end of her dungeon, so there's a quick way for Dorukan, Lirian, Girard, and Soon to all come to the final room of her dungeon? She did say that she expected to be outlived, so it seems like she was relying on help from the others -- and what's the point of a Sending if they can't come to her dungeon quick enough? It's all the way up in the North Pole, and presumably warded against teleportation (Xykon would have the exact coordinates) like the others are, unless she built in a back door specifically for the other Scribbles.

[KorvinStarmast]

How has Serini been getting all these monsters to her dungeon? Portals? Did she have a portal to Durokan's Dungeon?
She's had over 60 years to recruit monsters ... and she seems to have a lot of wands. Not a 3.5 D&D expert, but some wands may help.

[OvisCaedo]

Under normal circumstances, she wouldn't really need a way for the other Scribblers to reach her in a huge hurry even if she was calling to them for help. Going through the entire gauntlet would take an enormous amount of time by usual means. Look how long it took the Sticks to get here and everything they got sidetracked by, and on Team Evil's side they'd seem to have barely even made a dent in the door count (Even including the fake marks!)

[danielxcutter]

Also, teleport scrolls are a thing and aren't that costly for an epic character like Serini.

[bunsen_h]

Also, teleport scrolls are a thing and aren't that costly for an epic character like Serini.

Would a teleport scroll be usable by anyone other than an arcane caster (which in this case would be limited to Dorukan)?

[hamishspence]

That's what the Use Magic Device skill (a commonly taken Rogue skill) is for.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/useMagicDevice.htm

Use Magic Device (Cha; Trained Only)
Use this skill to activate magic

You can use this skill to read a spell or to activate a magic item. Use Magic Device lets you use a magic item as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class, as if you were a different race, or as if you were of a different alignment.

You make a Use Magic Device check each time you activate a device such as a wand. If you are using the check to emulate an alignment or some other quality in an ongoing manner, you need to make the relevant Use Magic Device check once per hour.

You must consciously choose which requirement to emulate. That is, you must know what you are trying to emulate when you make a Use Magic Device check for that purpose. The DCs for various tasks involving Use Magic Device checks are summarized on the table below.

Use Magic Device DCs

Use a scroll: 20 + caster level
Emulate an ability score: See text

Emulate an Ability Score
To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells). Your effective ability score (appropriate to the class you’re emulating when you try to cast the spell from the scroll) is your Use Magic Device check result minus 15. If you already have a high enough score in the appropriate ability, you don’t need to make this check.


https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm#scrollMishaps

Scrolls


To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.

The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.)
The user must have the spell on his or her class list.
The user must have the requisite ability score.
If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell’s caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell’s caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll’s caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. If she fails, she must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a mishap (see Scroll Mishaps, below). A natural roll of 1 always fails, whatever the modifiers.

Rogues can emulate 'being an arcane spellcaster" and "having the spell on their caster list" (and "having the high ability score needed") but their caster level is inherently 0, so they're saddled with the caster level check and the chance of mishap.

They also need to decipher the scroll first - but UMD can do that as if it were Spellcraft - albeit with a higher DC.


Decipher a Written Spell
This usage works just like deciphering a written spell with the Spellcraft skill, except that the DC is 5 points higher. Deciphering a written spell requires 1 minute of concentration.

[DavidSh]

Sunny von Bülow, perhaps? (For her it was a nickname).

When I was a kid, there was a popular song "Sunny" (Bobby Hebb, 1963) that was about a female love interest (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkUsGkxZSvM).

I think more of When Sunny Gets Blue (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7KnOAeahSU). (... her eyes get grey and cloudy ...)

[Blue Dragon]

Even if it doesn't end up being the Big Final Battle I hope we get a callback to the big splash panel with Xykon and his allies.

Who would be giving the "Hey" salute? Serini? Roy? O-Chul?

[Lord Torath]

Given the normal cost overruns associated with a job as large as the Redmountain project, and Serini's clever use of otherwise unnoticeable teleport traps, it is possible that the workers were never aware that their construction of the 'fake gate decoy passageway' occurred far from Redmountain. Serini probably slipped the blueprints in for the expansion, then removed them after the construction crew left and before she erased the teleport trap.

Happens all the time in construction.And this could also explain why there wasn't enough money for the Water Wing! Serini 'stole' the funds by slipping her plans into the stack!

As far as Sunny, one of my friends growing up had a little sister.

[gbaji]

And this could also explain why there wasn't enough money for the Water Wing! Serini 'stole' the funds by slipping her plans into the stack!

It would be a really funny reveal if Serni did, in fact, steal some of Durokan's construction resources for her dungeon. But I suspect that's probably all this is. At the end of the day, the gate is fixed in a specific location, so her dungeon can't be somewhere else physically. I mean, we could assume that the teleporter sends them to this dungeon, which is located elsewhere (somehow connected to Durokan's dungeon, but apparently not blowed up), and then there's another portal that transports them to where the gate actually is, but that seems needlessly complicated.

Could be as simple as she built the "Final Dungeon" first, around the gate, utilizing the same crew/resources Durokan used (and hey, maybe he even helped her set some of this up), then she built the gauntlet dungeons later on, and over time. They certainly all seem to have a completely different style to them.


As far as Sunny, one of my friends growing up had a little sister.

Named Betty? Er... Gertrude? Wait! I can guess it...

[Blue Dragon]

My bet is the author is just messing with the Overthinkers of the Stick and Serini will b o n k anyone in the party that tries to get deeper than "it was the trend at the time" or "it was the cheapest option".

[Coppercloud]

I mean, we could assume that the teleporter sends them to this dungeon, which is located elsewhere (somehow connected to Durokan's dungeon, but apparently not blowed up), and then there's another portal that transports them to where the gate actually is, but that seems needlessly complicated.I agree! This hypothetical setup would only make sense if it had been built by a certain fighter/rogue/sorcerer with a goatee, right?

Wait, it all makes sense now! Obviously the portal was tampered with by Nale after he was resurrected and came back in time when Serini was absent from her dungeon! His goal is to protect the gate as well, just to spite his father who was ready to destroy Girard's one. Also, he was resurrected by Redcloak's niece, who then went back in time herself and became Hilgya before the events of the main comic.

Jokes aside:

Would a teleport scroll be usable by anyone other than an arcane caster (which in this case would be limited to Dorukan)?
In addition to what hamishspence said, we've seen Gannji the bounty hunter use a teleport scroll back in Bleedingham (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0716.html).

Also, as many posters before me, I'm of the opinion that Serini indeed hired the same dwarven contractors. I'd venture a guess that in the next comic, someone (probably Roy, due to ranks in Architecture) asks her about it, and it will segue to a retelling of the Scribble's story, and the reasons for their split.

[Ericw]

And the plot thickens....by looping around in on itself.
Illusion? Maybe. Kinda like the cave Yoda sent Luke in in TESB " Only what you take with you" kind of thing?

[Albion]

Soon, MitD will be revealed!

[brian 333]

And the plot thickens....by looping around in on itself.
Illusion? Maybe. Kinda like the cave Yoda sent Luke in in TESB " Only what you take with you" kind of thing?

Why must it be a Star Wars reference? Why can't it be the forest Westley lead Princess Buttercup through? Or the theater where Blackwolf's projector was playing propaganda films, or the airplane Major Kong has to do electrical repairs on? There are lots of movies that we all know that can be used for crafting analogies.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Next time on OotS:

Elan: How are we back in the dungeon of Dorukan?

Serini: Oh, it just looks like that because I used the same paint and type of bricks.

Elan: Have we teleported there?

Serini: The multidimensional stone only allows very specific teleportations, and Dorukan's didn't allow them at all. It's just the paint job.

Elan: But we blew that dungeon up. Maybe we've time travelled?

Serini: That's not a thing; it's just the paint.

Elan: Or maybe it's an illusion!

Serini: Paint is easier than an illusion of paint.

Elan: Are we still in Girard's dungeon? Is anything real?

Serini: PAINT!

Elan: Or maybe roy's still dead and this is all his afterlife!

Serini whacks Elan

Elan: I am now convinced of the reality on an external world.

Varsuvius, aside to Blackwing: See, violence is occasionally the correct way to demonstrate metaphysical principles.

[Coppercloud]

Alternative last line for Elan: "Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system. (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=l8ukak8P2vY)" (I'd say I'm sorry for making this joke, but I'm not).

[TaiLiu]

I'm not sure if we have. I shouldn't have used the male pronoun; that was a mistake on my part. My apologies to the non-binary for the faux-pas.
Huh. I assumed Sunny was a boy, too, cuz I'm only familiar with "Sunny" as a male name. Apparently it's gender neutral, and even predominantly a female name (https://www.behindthename.com/name/sunny/top/united-states-decade/).

Despite this, I can't shake the "boyness" of the name. Weird what associations our minds create.

[danielxcutter]

Even if Rich does establish a "canon" gender for Sunny, I expect Sunny is the mental equivalent of "too young to really care about that in the first place".

Mind, it arguably doesn't matter much when you're older, but it does seem kids care even less about that on average.

[Ruck]

Even if Rich does establish a "canon" gender for Sunny

Serini calls Sunny "them" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1283.html), and given that Serini is the only character we know who knows Sunny well, I'm guessing that's as much of a canonical answer as we're getting.

[danielxcutter]

Serini calls Sunny "them" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1283.html), and given that Serini is the only character we know who knows Sunny well, I'm guessing that's as much of a canonical answer as we're getting.

I think that officially falls under "good enough" for me.

Also I was going to raise general concern about Sunny not having anyone else to interact with besides Serini, but then I remembered that plenty of monsters here are not only friendly and sentient, but capable of communicating even without magic (like Urdook). And I don't think Mimi can speak Common but she can probably use a quill and parchment. So yeah, not that bad an environment for a kid to grow up in.

[Precure]

Sunny refers to Serini as "mother", but the one birthed it as "spawn-parent", hence implying their species as asexual and genderless.

[bunsen_h]

Serini whacks Elan

Elan: I am now convinced of the reality on an external world.

Varsuvius, aside to Blackwing: See, violence is occasionally the correct way to demonstrate metaphysical principles.

From Diane Duane's Spock's World (https://books.google.ca/books?id=_rgK-dtgJMoC&printsec=frontcover&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=aaaaaaaiigh&f=false):


The gentleman had been so busy expounding on the illusory nature of matter that he had never noticed K's't'lk come softly down from the stage and walk down the aisle next to which he was standing. As for the rest of it--even a Vulcan will react when a silicon-based life form bites him on the leg.

"Fascinating," K's't'lk said. "For someone whom on most levels of consideration doesn't exist, you scream with great enthusiasm. And I heard you, too. Better have that looked into."

[FriendComputer]

Haven't been on the forums in a while - I'm sure the "everything old is new" feeling of the last panel has been analyzed to death, but I have to say that it reminds me of Final Fantasy 1. The first boss you face ends up being the last boss you face, in the same castle dungeon (ish).

[KorvinStarmast]

Sunny refers to Serini as "mother", but the one birthed it as "spawn-parent", hence implying their species as asexual and genderless.Or the beholders are actually Zergs. :smalleek:

[F.Harr]

[Sniff!] It's just so . . . beautiful!

I remember when I started reading this comic. I'm really glad I did.