Need a Forgotten Realms lore sage to confirm technical afterlife questions

[Nimbus]

As a general explanation, I've been compiling some thoughts I have after completing Baldur's Gate 3. To avoid spoilers I'll just say the game is very selective in how it chooses to address the afterlife and the possibility of resurrection. I don't say this to condemn, it might be a smart choice when dealing with a wide audience. However, it did cause my lore-nerd / rules lawyer self to start thinking about some things. Things that only very specific types of nerds can hope to help me out in answering. Completely unrelated, I thought to make a post here on one of my favorite web comics!

From my understanding, a soul departs a body once dead, heads to the Fugue Plane, then after some time depending on faith and importance, eventually gets picked up and ushered to where they belong and they become part of whatever plane that is, in service or form that seems to be pretty plane specific. There does not seem to be a central judge like many systems/faiths depict, the soul simply knows where it should be going and will recognize the proper divine messenger once it arrives.

The chance of any resurrection magic working is heavily dependant on how long it has been since death, being especially unlikely if they have reached their final plane. It also seems to depend on the faith and alignment of the individual casting the spell, with opposing faiths and alignments more likely to be rejected. The level / type of resurrection seems to only matter in meeting the requirements of needing the corpse or not.

From my own understanding, aka could be very wrong, souls are also content and free of burden once released into the afterlife. This is why nearly all non-leveled characters and many NPCs can't just be brought back, they lack the extreme urgency and causes that normally define PCs. So you basically need to convince the soul to come back to pain, suffering, and anxiety from a place where they have none of that stuff.

So first question is just if the above summary is more or less correct, ignoring minority exceptions such as faithless? If I am confused on the basics, the other questions possibly don't even matter.

Second question, Devils seem to be able to sign deals with mortals where the mortal contracts away even their soul's destination in the afterlife. In these cases, do they simply skip the Fugue Plane, do not pass go, do not collect 200gp? Or is it simply the act of signing such a contract is so heinous that their soul is destined for the Hells regardless, and the contract simply stipulates what happens once they arrive?

Third, is there any explanation for why that is allowed? Seems like a loophole some gods would have a vested interest in closing if they could. Relatedly, can Lawful Good deities or their servants offer contracts of their own? I imagine the mere concept of using a soul as currency is anathema to the idea but Lawful is Lawful I'd imagine.

Lastly, is there any explanation for the origins of souls? Or if the full destruction of souls has any greater effect on the overall scheme of things? I know some settings such as Pillars of Eternity have done interesting things with these questions, so I'm just curious if Forgotten Realms engages with it at all.

Thanks for any help anyone can provide! I'm hoping some of these questions have had answers in the many canonical novels or adventures. Sans that, I'm certainly open to theorizing and debate on that matter!

PS- Just realized I sort of assume in the above questions that deities derive power from worship and souls they gain on their planes, since it is the case in OotS and many other settings. I actually don't know if that is even the case though since Forgotten Realms deities derive power from portfolios and Ao, they might not care much about souls much at all. So I guess bonus question, do souls matter to the Forgotten Realms deities?

[Kyovastra]

There is a central judge. Once they get to the Fugue Plane, they end up in the City of Judgement where Kelemvor (and Jergal, though he's not relevant here) are, and after a relatively short amount of time they are judged and determined whether they were true to their faith. If they weren't, they are deemed False, though note it's very difficult to actually be judged as False and you pretty much have to be intentionally pretending to follow one god while really following another.

If they have no faith, they are judged Faithless, but at any point before they are judged they have the opportunity to devote themselves to a deity. In the past, the Faithless were put in the Wall until their souls were absorbed and destroyed by it, but I'm not sure what happens to them now since they quietly scrubbed the Wall of the Faithless out of 5e in errata without explanation. In any time up until they are judged, they can also make a deal with any of the baatezu in the City of Judgement.

In any case, after their time in the Fugue plane, their soul departs to where it belongs to become a petitioner. This is my understanding, but I can't keep up with retcons or if anything else has changed about it. Notably, the Fugue used to be in the First Gloom of the Gray Waste, but I believe now it's in the Astral. It's also worth noting there's been several gods of death, for example Kelemvor succeeded the cruel Myrkul (who built the Wall) and tried to replace fear of death with understanding of it.

[RedMage125]

As a general explanation, I've been compiling some thoughts I have after completing Baldur's Gate 3. To avoid spoilers I'll just say the game is very selective in how it chooses to address the afterlife and the possibility of resurrection. I don't say this to condemn, it might be a smart choice when dealing with a wide audience. However, it did cause my lore-nerd / rules lawyer self to start thinking about some things. Things that only very specific types of nerds can hope to help me out in answering. Completely unrelated, I thought to make a post here on one of my favorite web comics!

From my understanding, a soul departs a body once dead, heads to the Fugue Plane, then after some time depending on faith and importance, eventually gets picked up and ushered to where they belong and they become part of whatever plane that is, in service or form that seems to be pretty plane specific. There does not seem to be a central judge like many systems/faiths depict, the soul simply knows where it should be going and will recognize the proper divine messenger once it arrives.

The chance of any resurrection magic working is heavily dependant on how long it has been since death, being especially unlikely if they have reached their final plane. It also seems to depend on the faith and alignment of the individual casting the spell, with opposing faiths and alignments more likely to be rejected. The level / type of resurrection seems to only matter in meeting the requirements of needing the corpse or not.

From my own understanding, aka could be very wrong, souls are also content and free of burden once released into the afterlife. This is why nearly all non-leveled characters and many NPCs can't just be brought back, they lack the extreme urgency and causes that normally define PCs. So you basically need to convince the soul to come back to pain, suffering, and anxiety from a place where they have none of that stuff.

So first question is just if the above summary is more or less correct, ignoring minority exceptions such as faithless? If I am confused on the basics, the other questions possibly don't even matter.

Second question, Devils seem to be able to sign deals with mortals where the mortal contracts away even their soul's destination in the afterlife. In these cases, do they simply skip the Fugue Plane, do not pass go, do not collect 200gp? Or is it simply the act of signing such a contract is so heinous that their soul is destined for the Hells regardless, and the contract simply stipulates what happens once they arrive?

Third, is there any explanation for why that is allowed? Seems like a loophole some gods would have a vested interest in closing if they could. Relatedly, can Lawful Good deities or their servants offer contracts of their own? I imagine the mere concept of using a soul as currency is anathema to the idea but Lawful is Lawful I'd imagine.

Lastly, is there any explanation for the origins of souls? Or if the full destruction of souls has any greater effect on the overall scheme of things? I know some settings such as Pillars of Eternity have done interesting things with these questions, so I'm just curious if Forgotten Realms engages with it at all.

Thanks for any help anyone can provide! I'm hoping some of these questions have had answers in the many canonical novels or adventures. Sans that, I'm certainly open to theorizing and debate on that matter!

PS- Just realized I sort of assume in the above questions that deities derive power from worship and souls they gain on their planes, since it is the case in OotS and many other settings. I actually don't know if that is even the case though since Forgotten Realms deities derive power from portfolios and Ao, they might not care much about souls much at all. So I guess bonus question, do souls matter to the Forgotten Realms deities?

A lot of what you remember is correct. Souls linger on the Fugue Plane for weeks, while deities periodically send minions to collect their faithful. The most faithful are drawn to these messengers like running a big magnet over a bunch of straw that contains a few iron nails. But that's usually only for the most devout. At the end of the line, they go to the Crystal Spire, the city rules by Kelemvor, where he judges then. Ideally, he judges that they were, in fact, faithful enough to go to their patron deity realm, but those who betrayed their deific patron's ideals are judged False, and they spend eternity working as labor in his city. And of course, you know the fate of those deemed Faithless.

People with infernal contracts go to Hell when they reach the end of the line, Kelemvor sends them to pay their due. So you only have a week or so to resurrwct someone with such a contract. In addition, Devils DO try to offer contracts to the souls in line, preying on the insecurity of those who doubt whether or not they'll make the cut.

It is my understanding that such is allowed because mortals have free will and have the freedom to choose their fate, even damnation.

To my knowledge, there's no explanation for the origin of souls, that's just how Ao set up reality.

And your bonus question...I don't know. I suppose it depends if petitioners (what the souls of the faithful become in their deity realm) count as "worshippers". Ao made the power of each deity dependent on their number of worshippers.

That's what I recall, anyway.




It's also worth noting there's been several gods of death, for example Kelemvor succeeded the cruel Myrkul (who built the Wall) and tried to replace fear of death with understanding of it.

I think in one of the novels towards the end of the Avatar "trilogy" (really a quintet), Kelemvor gave every soul in the city and the wall a second look.

[Unoriginal]

From my own understanding, aka could be very wrong, souls are also content and free of burden once released into the afterlife. This is why nearly all non-leveled characters and many NPCs can't just be brought back, they lack the extreme urgency and causes that normally define PCs. So you basically need to convince the soul to come back to pain, suffering, and anxiety from a place where they have none of that stuff

Oh no, plenty of afterlives are utterly nightmarish.

Even non-nightmarish afterlives don't just go for content and free of burden. Most afterlives are "you, in a new context", and even a nice context don't guarantee people just won't decide to give life another go depending on their circumstances and personalities. The dutiful knight who died defending their friends may be more willing to come back than the solitary traveler who ended up dead in a ditch after everyone they once cared for burned those bridges, for example.

Plenty of NPCs are willing to come back to life if given the chance. If the magic doing the job is enough to give them the chance is another matter entirely.

[Nimbus]

Hey, this got more responses than I expected, thanks everyone! Great info and good to know for sure. I'm not sure why, since I'm not really religious in the real world, however I tend to really like the pantheons and deities of fantasy settings. I guess it helps that they are just real, confirmable, and part of life people need to deal with.

My mistake on implying souls are just happy with their lot. I mostly meant that for while they await judgment, though it seems I was wrong even there. After being judged and sent to your final destination I believe you are basically claimed and for resurrection to even have a chance at working the owner of the soul's new home has to approve of it. Being a petitioner or whatever other form a soul ends up as seems to vary about as much as imagination can allow. I'd argue after enough time you practically aren't even the same soul that went in originally, making long-dead resurrection unlikely for about 10 separate reasons.

Still not sure that I clearly understand the devil contract situation. Sure mortals have free will and can sign those, however it sounds like that means they / the devils get to completely skip the judgment process. I imagine that is just the pre-established 'deal' with whoever is currently god of the dead / that realm. I am genuinely curious if that is just a Devil specialty or if that process can either be duplicated or interfered with by other Lawful deities.

To relate all this back to what got me down this thought process, BG3 doesn't engage with the afterlife at all, however chose to make possible death central to several companion's stories. Some of them I could at least guess why resurrection wasn't a option, others very much less so. I mostly was off-put that no one seems to ask "So why can't we just resurrect them if that happens? I'm a powerful cleric with a scroll of true resurrection, I feel like I can make this happen.".

I think in most games I just overlook this as a mechanical requirement - in BG3 I think I was put off because they clearly want to engage with death as a strong story device and I know there is actually good explanations for all of this. They just... ignore that. I personally feel like this was a missed opportunity but admit I'm not a professional game designer or narrative designer. Either way, this led me to want to confirm how some things work.

Thanks again for helping find the relevant infos and sating my curiosity!

[prototype00]

Still not sure that I clearly understand the devil contract situation. Sure mortals have free will and can sign those, however it sounds like that means they / the devils get to completely skip the judgment process. I imagine that is just the pre-established 'deal' with whoever is currently god of the dead / that realm. I am genuinely curious if that is just a Devil specialty or if that process can either be duplicated or interfered with by other Lawful deities.

The judgement process is also free will. As some other poster stated, you can declare for a deity at any point up to the judgement (though I’d imagine you wouldn’t earn much kudos from your new boss as a last minute convert), so any that get judged are choosing to get judged.

As to why devils do it and gods do not, there isn’t an official explanation, but keep in mind that devils are the personification of Lawful Evil (i.e. the slimiest personal injury lawyer you can imagine) and in their hierarchy the bigger the number of souls they are able to deliver up via contract the better. They are extremely desirous of the deal, more so than the Lawful gods (who don’t particularly gain more power as they gain more worshippers in FR iirc), so the gods just send their representatives to pick up the mortals that declared for them anyhow, they don’t need to scrabble for petitioners.

[Zevox]

(who don’t particularly gain more power as they gain more worshippers in FR iirc),
You don't recall correctly, I'm afraid. FR gods very much gain power from worship, and can even die from lack of it (such as happened to Auppenser when Jhaamdath fell, or Amauntor when Netheril did).

As for why devils are "allowed" to make their contracts, there's not a Realms-specific explanation I'm aware of. You could use the explanations given in the various tellings of Asmodeus' backstory, which often involve a contract between him and beings of the LG and LN planes, but arguably those don't work as well in the Realms' gods-centric afterlife system. Best explanation therefore is probably simply that, until judged by Kelemvor or claimed by their patron deity, the mortal's soul is theirs to do with as they please, including granting ownership of it to someone else.

[verbatim]

Imo one of the smartest lorebuilding aspects in all of dnd is gods deriving power from worship.

It offers a compelling explenation for why gods reward followers and offer them an afterlife (as opposed to how most irl Religions attribute these things to compassion).

A fringe benefit is that the term overgod maps somewhat cleanly to beings who are above this process and are Power innate itself (Xylon speech moment).

[Unoriginal]

Mortals don't need a god to get an afterlife, outside of Aber-Toril's crystal sphere.

If you aren't claimed by a deity or compelled by another force (ex: the Raven Queen snatching souls for fun), you just go to the afterlife that is the most like you.

The Nine Hells get the large majority of lawful evil souls simply because the plane is the very concept of lawful evil as a place.


You could use the explanations given in the various tellings of Asmodeus' backstory, which often involve a contract between him and beings of the LG and LN planes

Thankfully that contract story is not canon in 5e.


Best explanation therefore is probably simply that, until judged by Kelemvor or claimed by their patron deity, the mortal's soul is theirs to do with as they please, including granting ownership of it to someone else.

That is accurate. As the 5e PHB once stated, free will requires the freedom to do evil.

[Zevox]

Thankfully that contract story is not canon in 5e.
Isn't it? I thought the latest version of it was in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes. *checks*

Ah, okay, the Mordenkainen's story doesn't involve a contract, it has Asmodeus on trial for unspecified crimes, ending with him being given the Ruby Rod to "guarantee his adherence to the law," which also incidentally granted devils the authority to make contracts for mortal souls. Similar idea, bit different execution.

[Unoriginal]

Isn't it? I thought the latest version of it was in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes. *checks*

Ah, okay, the Mordenkainen's story doesn't involve a contract, it has Asmodeus on trial for unspecified crimes, ending with him being given the Ruby Rod to "guarantee his adherence to the law," which also incidentally granted devils the authority to make contracts for mortal souls. Similar idea, bit different execution.

I would argue that "the good gods agreed to let Asmodeus torture people for eternity as an acceptable punishment/as a way to intimidate people into being good, but they didn't count on him making more people do the things that resulted in them being punished for eternity" and "The embodiment of Law told Asmodeus that since he claimed what he was doing was lawful, he and his goons better follow the proper, lawful paperwork or else" are two very different ideas and executions.

[Psyren]

I would argue that "the good gods agreed to let Asmodeus torture people for eternity as an acceptable punishment/as a way to intimidate people into being good, but they didn't count on him making more people do the things that resulted in them being punished for eternity" and "The embodiment of Law told Asmodeus that since he claimed what he was doing was lawful, he and his goons better follow the proper, lawful paperwork or else" are two very different ideas and executions.

I'm inclined to agree that 5e dialed back the Good Is Dumb aspects of infernal canon.

As for the Wall, while I can sympathize with some of the gameplay reasons behind its creation, I'm ultimately not sorry to see it gone. (My reasons for feeling that way are probably difficult to discuss here though.)