My extra wild magic Barbarian needs a future

[CTurbo]

My Wild Magic Barbarian has officially come "online" now at level 7 and I didn't plan on anything after this so I need a new direction to take this character in. I can say that I have no interest in continuing in either Barbarian or Sorcerer and I'm really looking for something to switch to and likely stay with from here on out.

Goliath Wild Magic Barbarian 6 with a single level of Wild Magic Sorcerer.

20 Str, 14 Dex, 18 Con, 7 Int, 14 Wis, 14 Cha

He's really dumb, and I don't want him to ever be good at spellcasting, but he LOVES magic.

His 2 spells are Absorb Elements and Chaos Bolt. It's been house ruled that Rage doesn't matter with the casting of those spells as long as he has no control over casting them. If he's hit with elemental damage, and he has a spell slot, it automatically triggers Absorb Elements. If he's in combat and there are no enemies within his reach to attack, and he has a spell slot, it automatically triggers Chaos Bolt. I automatically roll on the Wild Magic(Sorc) table when a spell is cast. So far this has been mildly underwhelming, but it's still wacky enough to be fun and not completely useless.

His 4 cantrips are listed as Light, Mending, Prestidigitation, and Mind Sliver. Despite "knowing them" already, he has yet to learn how to cast the 2nd two in game and Light and Mending are the only things he is competent at. My plan was to have him learn the other 2 over time.

He currently uses a +1 Greatsword, but I don't want him to use weapons and prefer the grapple/brawl playstyle with him. I just didn't have a way to overcome magical resistance so until he can get magic bracers or the Eldritch Claw tattoo, he's stuck using a weapon.

He has the Tavern Brawler feat, but it could be swapped out/retrained as something else at some point if necessary. I'm thinking Fighting Initiative for the Unarmed Fighting Style.

He LOVES animals(especially cats) so I've been seriously considering going Moon Druid from here on out. He'd probably stick mainly to wildshaping into various big cats most of the time though. The DM would likely let me eventually turn into modified more powerful cat forms if/when the common PHB forms are too weak. Even the Elemental forms could be fluffed as elemental cats. My issue with Druid is it's a full caster and I don't want him to be competent with spells. I'm considering just sticking to Rituals for all my spells known, and using most of my slots to heal myself. If not, I'd want all the beast/animal spells and maybe the "Speak with Plants" type spells too. All situational utility stuff.

My Next thought was Beastmaster Ranger and using a Panther as my companion. I could take the Revised Ranger Beastmaster Concave, which to me, is the best iteration of the subclass. I'm afraid the companion would be too weak though since it would be character level 10 before I got it. I'm also not excited about taking 13 levels in Ranger. The spells would all be plant/animal related most likely. The DM is generous with house rules to fit flavor, but he's not going to let me concentrate on a spell while Raging, and I don't blame him.

Another thought was going Echo Knight Fighter. Sounds like it could be fun and feels magical without having to mess with more spells.. I could get Unarmed or Blind Fighting and eventually the 3rd attack. We already have a Battlemaster so that's out, or I would consider that.

My only other real idea was going Monk. Monk offers a lot of things that fits his unarmed/unarmored playstyle. Martial Arts and extra movement would be nice. His Ki save DC is going to be low though so that would make most subclass features and Stunning Strike less valuable. I could bump Wis some more though if I go this route. Obviously I'd stick to the Barb's Unarmored Defense. I'm having a hard time deciding on a subclass. I like Long Death and he would be so hard to kill after Monk 11, but everything else is kind of underwhelming. Mercy could be good, but the lowish Wis takes away from that too.

This doesn't have to be the most powerful character ever. I care more for fun and flavor, and I'm playing with my kids and nephews so I'm trying not to overshadow them anyway. As long as he doesn't become useless I'm good.

The rest of the party is a Lore Bard, Pyro Sorcerer, Swashbuckler, and Battlemaster.

[Amnestic]

Your wis being 'only' 14 instead of higher won't hurt Mercy all that much. Knocks off a point or two of expected healing/damage on Hands of Harm/Healing each time you use it but I expect that generally that won't matter, and the only saving throw it has is Stunning Strike. If you burn all your ki on FoB+HoH (and since you're coming in late with monk, that's probably pretty likely! You'll be 13th level before getting SS) then that won't even matter all that much.

Moon Druid does have the advantage of being able to burn all its spell slots on just healing itself, so you never really need to cast any spells if you don't want to.

Wild choice: Swarmkeeper ranger, with your swarm being feral cats.

If your DM is amenable to it, a psi-warrior fighter with the casting stat changed from int to charisma would also be pretty neat. Lots of options for jumping around the battlefield and shoving people around.

[Mastikator]

Monk, drunken master, it's neither animal loving nor magical. But it seethes with wild chaotic energy.

[Unoriginal]

3 levels of Dragon Ascendant Monk lets you punch people and monsters even if they have resistance/immunity to non-magical damage, since you can make your punches fire/cold/acid.

It even works with the Unarmed fighting style.

And you have an AoE breath attack as an option.

At lvl 6 you can fly, also.

[RogueJK]

Of the four considered options, three of them have major deficiencies as well as some minor ones.

Monk
You'd be faced with two avenues: Unarmored Defense with an AC of either a mere 14 (DEX+WIS) or a mere 16 (DEX+CON), plus the ability to make slightly better unarmed strikes. (Though it still wouldn't be until Character Level 13 that your unarmed strikes would become magical.) Or stay with your current armor and weapon style and give up most of the low level Monk abilities, leaving you really no better off at making unarmed strikes, thus eliminating your reason for going Monk in the first place. Neither one is great for Level 8+ combat.

Moon Druid
If you were to multiclass now, when you hit Moon Druid 2, you'd be a Level 9 Character who can Wild Shape into CR1 animals. A CR1 animal is not viable in combat at Level 9+. You also wouldn't be able to cast your "instinctive spells" in Wild Shape (unless the DM gives you a similar pass like with Rage), nor could you use Tavern Brawler since Beasts don't use Unarmed Strikes or Improvised Weapons. It would purely be an out of combat/exploration/utility option.

Beastmaster Ranger
Similarly, by the time you got your Panther online at Ranger 3, you'd be a Level 10 Character, and the Panther companion with just 3 levels of Ranger to boost it would not be viable in combat at Level 10+. Also, Rangers don't get access to Unarmed Fighting Style; it's exclusive to Fighters.


Beastmaster and Moon Druid both rely heavily on sticking with solely levels in those classes in order to keep their Companion/Wild Shape ability scaling alongside enemy scaling. Neither plays well with significant other multiclass levels.


So mechanically speaking, the optimal route would be to switch to Fighter if you're not interested in taking further Barbarian levels. Go either Echo Knight for the added magicalness as you stated, or Rune Knight for similar additional magical effects that aren't spells so can still be utilized while Raging, plus the Giant's Might's increased effectiveness at Grappling and added damage to unarmed strikes. If your DM will work with you to find a way to make your unarmed strikes magical, then consider the Unarmed Fighting Style, otherwise pick someone else like Great Weapon, Defense, or Blind Fighting and stick with your Greatsword.

[kazaryu]

whatever else you do it seems like you probably want a level in rogue for expertise (since you're going that grappler style) 2 levels gets you BA dash which can really help with moving enemies where you want them (since you're at half speed) which can help to improve the utility of grappling. alternatively, unless your DM has rules that ASI's are based on character level instead of class level you could take that extra level in barbarian to get the skill expert half-feat.

but yeah i mean if you're going for unarmed then monk is probably a good idea while grabbing unarmed fighting style from something.

[Clause]

Feels like you need rouge levels at your way. Peraps swashbucler?

[CTurbo]

Your wis being 'only' 14 instead of higher won't hurt Mercy all that much. Knocks off a point or two of expected healing/damage on Hands of Harm/Healing each time you use it but I expect that generally that won't matter, and the only saving throw it has is Stunning Strike. If you burn all your ki on FoB+HoH (and since you're coming in late with monk, that's probably pretty likely! You'll be 13th level before getting SS) then that won't even matter all that much.

Moon Druid does have the advantage of being able to burn all its spell slots on just healing itself, so you never really need to cast any spells if you don't want to.

Wild choice: Swarmkeeper ranger, with your swarm being feral cats.

If your DM is amenable to it, a psi-warrior fighter with the casting stat changed from int to charisma would also be pretty neat. Lots of options for jumping around the battlefield and shoving people around.

I could always bump Wis some. This is never going to be a feat starved build I don't think.
Swarmkeeper was an interesting suggestion, and I'll give it a look, but I'm having a hard time seeing how a swarm of cats is going to allow my Goliath to fly/hover lol
I'll have to give the Psi-Fighter a look. Not very familiar with it.


Monk, drunken master, it's neither animal loving nor magical. But it seethes with wild chaotic energy.

I think the Drunken Master is weak mechanically, but I'll admit that the FLAVOR of it is pretty cool for this flavor. I'll give it a good look.



3 levels of Dragon Ascendant Monk lets you punch people and monsters even if they have resistance/immunity to non-magical damage, since you can make your punches fire/cold/acid.

It even works with the Unarmed fighting style.

And you have an AoE breath attack as an option.

At lvl 6 you can fly, also.

I'm not very familiar with the Dragon Ascendant Monk either so I'll give it a look too.


Of the four considered options, three of them have major deficiencies as well as some minor ones.

Monk
You'd be faced with two avenues: Unarmored Defense with an AC of either a mere 14 (DEX+WIS) or a mere 16 (DEX+CON), plus the ability to make slightly better unarmed strikes. (Though it still wouldn't be until Character Level 13 that your unarmed strikes would become magical.) Or stay with your current armor and weapon style and give up most of the low level Monk abilities, leaving you really no better off at making unarmed strikes, thus eliminating your reason for going Monk in the first place. Neither one is great for Level 8+ combat.

Moon Druid
If you were to multiclass now, when you hit Moon Druid 2, you'd be a Level 9 Character who can Wild Shape into CR1 animals. A CR1 animal is not viable in combat at Level 9+. You also wouldn't be able to cast your "instinctive spells" in Wild Shape (unless the DM gives you a similar pass like with Rage), nor could you use Tavern Brawler since Beasts don't use Unarmed Strikes or Improvised Weapons. It would purely be an out of combat/exploration/utility option.

Beastmaster Ranger
Similarly, by the time you got your Panther online at Ranger 3, you'd be a Level 10 Character, and the Panther companion with just 3 levels of Ranger to boost it would not be viable in combat at Level 10+. Also, Rangers don't get access to Unarmed Fighting Style; it's exclusive to Fighters.


Beastmaster and Moon Druid both rely heavily on sticking with solely levels in those classes in order to keep their Companion/Wild Shape ability scaling alongside enemy scaling. Neither plays well with significant other multiclass levels.


So mechanically speaking, the optimal route would be to switch to Fighter if you're not interested in taking further Barbarian levels. Go either Echo Knight for the added magicalness as you stated, or Rune Knight for similar additional magical effects that aren't spells so can still be utilized while Raging, plus the Giant's Might's increased effectiveness at Grappling and added damage to unarmed strikes. If your DM will work with you to find a way to make your unarmed strikes magical, then consider the Unarmed Fighting Style, otherwise pick someone else like Great Weapon, Defense, or Blind Fighting and stick with your Greatsword.

For Monk I would stick with the Barb's Dex+Con unarmored defense. With a Ring of Protection my AC is 17 and I intended to max Con eventually which would help. If I retrained Tavern Brawler to Unarmed Fighting, I'd start off with 1d8 unarmed strikes. Monk immediately gives me a 3rd attack with the option of a 4th when needed. I'd avoid a subclass that's ki starved so I could focus all my ki on FoB and the occasional SotW. I'm not really seeing any downsides here other than the lower than average ki DC save. The only thing keeping this from being a no-brainer is that none of the subclasses look very exciting for this character. I'd be here for base class stuff.

You're absolutely right about the Moon Druid and Beastmaster Ranger's beast being too weak so late in char progression. I'm going to talk to the DM and see what he thinks and maybe he's willing to let me "level up" a Panther/Tiger just enough to stay competitive. This is a build that's purposefully avoiding being the DPR king so I don't think asking for a little help making a large cat more viable.

Fighter seems like the most logical and certainly the most simple choice. I really like the idea of him becoming an Echo Knight. He's so dumb he'd probably try to fight his Manifest Echo the first time or 2 it appears lol
Fighter is the ONLY build in which I would even consider sticking with the Greatsword and going GWM. The kids do like the huge damage numbers lol but that is not what I want for this build.
I'm not a fan of the Rune Knight, and my guy doesn't have any equipment or gear to enhance so Rune Carver would be useless. Giant Might does seems really cool though especially since the Bard like to cast Enlarge/Reduce on me so much. Runic Shield seems decent, and Great Stature sound hilarious considering my Goliath is already 9ft tall thanks to the Sorc's Wild Magic table. If I'm over 10ft tall am I even still a medium creation at that point???

I'll get an Eldritch Claw tattoo as soon as I can so I won't have to worry about magical resistance anymore.


whatever else you do it seems like you probably want a level in rogue for expertise (since you're going that grappler style) 2 levels gets you BA dash which can really help with moving enemies where you want them (since you're at half speed) which can help to improve the utility of grappling. alternatively, unless your DM has rules that ASI's are based on character level instead of class level you could take that extra level in barbarian to get the skill expert half-feat.

but yeah i mean if you're going for unarmed then monk is probably a good idea while grabbing unarmed fighting style from something.


Feels like you need rouge levels at your way. Peraps swashbucler?

I'm surprised to see 2 Rogue suggestions. Expertise in Athletics would be nice, but I already get advantage on Str checks while raging. Cunning Action is good, but I would never get any use out of Sneak Attack.

[Skrum]

Hella envious of your ability scores.

I've also got a wild magic barb (who's a chef, and I've reflavored most of the abilities to be food-based. His rage is "culinary magic;" he eats a profiterole and depending on what the filling is, that determines what ability he gets).

Since barb is a wasteland after 6, I took levels of rogue. He's currently barb 6 soulknife 4. I've similarly reflavored his soulknife abilities to be chef-y. The telepathic link is "Silent Kitchen." Anyway, none of that is relevant!! But I do highly recommend the rogue/barb combo. Reckless attack/sneak attack is all well and good, but there's more synergy than that. After raging, barbs rarely have a lot to do with their bonus action - so cunning action can be used constantly. Rogue also absolutely turbo-charges a barb's grappling; getting expertise AND cunning action means the barb is not only effectively unbeatable in a grapple, but they have very high movement to drag people around.

Between the barb durability, plethora of skills, high movement (higher than a straight rogue, in fact), grapples, and Bolstering Magic, my character is a great support-oriented melee/tank. He's picked up a couple of really nice light weapons so if he wants he can dish out respectable damage TWFing, but it's just a lot fun reacting to different situations with the random assortment of options he has.

Edit: with sneak attack, you can switch to a finesse weapon, freeing a hand to grapple, and not be giving up all that much. Adding 2d6 once per turn to shortsword attacks is comparable to using a greatsword. But you can grapple at the same time. Or grab another shortsword and do even better damage

[kazaryu]

I'm surprised to see 2 Rogue suggestions. Expertise in Athletics would be nice, but I already get advantage on Str checks while raging. Cunning Action is good, but I would never get any use out of Sneak Attack.

the big thing with expertise is it helps alot against opponents with a similar bonus. while advantage is great for ensuring you consistently roll high, if you've only got proficiency you've still got a 1/4 chance of skilled opponents also rolling high. (along with the 1/4 chance you you rolling low) whereas expertise will ensure that you have to roll particularly low, or your opponent needs to roll particularly high in order for the contest to be remotely competitive. bringing much more consistency.

and cunning action is, IMO, irreplaceable for a character that wants to focus on grappling, since one of the big benefits of grappling is the free forced movement. I'd even consider taking mobile for the extra speed it provides. speaking from experience, having a 50 foot move speed, a +13 (level 9) to athletics checks and the flexibility that cunning action gives is...man its so nice. its not just the BA dash, its also the disengage. you can dive into the enemy back line and drag someone forward while being able to eschew opportunity attacks....or rescue a downed ally.

ofc thats all dependent on the challenges the DM will send at you. i do agree that you're unlikely to see any real use out of the sneak attack. but thats why i wouldn't recommend more than 2 rogue levels. i think the first 2 give enough to your build to make up for the 1 dead feature.

[Sherlockpwns]

I want to bandwagon the drunken monk. It’s really not bad mechanically. Being able to grapple and disengage could be both clutch and cinematic. Plus it’s an extra xtra 5 feet you can drag someone. Just imagine diving into a group of guards, grabbing the guy they are protecting and dragging him into the open. Sounds like a blast.

Much later down the line at PL 12 being able to redirect a miss seems huge, granted you aren’t an AC powerhouse so it’s not as big as it could be, but it still should happen here or there.

[RogueJK]

Edit: with sneak attack, you can switch to a finesse weapon, freeing a hand to grapple, and not be giving up all that much. Adding 2d6 once per turn to shortsword attacks is comparable to using a greatsword. But you can grapple at the same time. Or grab another shortsword and do even better damage

Yep. Even if you only take 1-2 levels of Rogue and only have 1d6 Sneak Attack damage, making 2x STR-based Rapier attacks for 2d8+1d6 Sneak Attack (12.5) isn't noticeably far behind 2x Greatsword attack at 4d6 (14), provided you aren't using GWM. (The additional damage from the STR score and Rage are a wash between the two.)

You're basically giving up 1.5 average damage in exchange for having a hand free for Grappling/Shoving, or wielding a shield when extra AC is needed.

And you can reflavor the rapier from an acrobatic fencing sword to something more appropriate to the character, like a basket-hilted broadsword for a Highlander Barb/Rogue, or a cutlass for a Pirate Barb/Rogue, or a bladed gauntlet for a Gladiator Barb/Rogue, etc. The mechanics would remain the same: a 1d8 1H sword that can trigger Sneak Attack.

[Skrum]

Yep. Even if you only take 1-2 levels of Rogue and only have 1d6 Sneak Attack damage, making 2x STR-based Rapier attacks for 2d8+1d6 Sneak Attack (12.5) isn't noticeably far behind 2x Greatsword attack at 4d6 (14), provided you aren't using GWM. (The additional damage from the STR score and Rage are a wash between the two.)

You're basically giving up 1.5 average damage in exchange for having a hand free for Grappling/Shoving, or wielding a shield when extra AC is needed.

And you can reflavor the rapier from an acrobatic fencing sword to something more appropriate to the character, like a basket-hilted broadsword for a Highlander Barb/Rogue, or a cutlass for a Pirate Barb/Rogue, or a bladed gauntlet for a Gladiator Barb/Rogue, etc. The mechanics would remain the same: a 1d8 1H sword that can trigger Sneak Attack.

The damage is actually closer than that - if both hits land, the greatsword does more damage, but if only 1 hit lands, the rapier + SA does better damage. That's the power of "on first hit" abilities.

Factoring in hit chance, against an "average" enemy (needing to roll an 8 or better to hit them), the DPR of the rapier would be 16.42.
The greatsword is 16.3
The rapier is slightly favored!

But that's not factoring in rage, or the probability that a barb, with reckless attack, most likely has a better chance to hit than that. The greatsword is slightly favored in damage, but it's honestly very very little. And if you take a 3rd rogue level, the one-handed weapon is definitely better.

[Unoriginal]

This doesn't have to be the most powerful character ever. I care more for fun and flavor, and I'm playing with my kids and nephews so I'm trying not to overshadow them anyway. As long as he doesn't become useless I'm good.


Alright, I had a crazy idea.

Go Astral Self Monk.

While the Astral Self is known to allow WIS-SAD-Monks, using WIS for attacks is only an option, not an obligation.

Retraining Tavern Brawler into Fighting Initiate: Unarmed and going Astral Self would mean that at lvl 10, you can:

-Punch 3 times per round for 1d8+5 damages

-Punch 4 times per round for 1d8+5 damages for 1 ki

-Spend 1 ki to have 10 minutes with your Astral Arms, allowing your unarmed strikes to get +5ft of reach (which includes when you grapple or push people away/prone) and inflicting force damages (which bypass B/P/S resistance/immunity and is very uncommon to resist). Not to mention the damaging AoE when you unleash your battle aura.

It's helpful, it's cinematic, it fits your character concept/aesthetic, and it's still good if you keep taking Monk levels past lvl 10

[CTurbo]

There's no way my 9ft Goliath is ever going to attack with a finesse weapon so yall can stop doing math about Sneak Attack damage lol

I do see the merit in having Expertise in Athletics and I've put Skill Expert high on the list of feats to consider. I could even trade Tavern Brawler for Skill Expert right now.

I was looking for 1 class to take 13 levels in, but honestly, if I chose Fighter, I really on need 11 levels in it which would give me 2 extra levels to play with. Rogue 2 for Expertise and Cunning Action could fit.

If I chose Monk or Druid, I'd want all 13 levels. Monk + Skill Expert provides the same thing as Rogue 2, but with much more movement.

I still don't want to use any weapons despite the kids wanting me to use the biggest weapon possible. They can't understand why I wouldn't want to do the most amount of damage possible. I've tried explaining to them that you don't have to deal massive damage to have fun and have a good character.

[Skrum]

There's no way my 9ft Goliath is ever going to attack with a finesse weapon so yall can stop doing math about Sneak Attack damage lol


I hear you - but what do you do about grapples. There's real merit to using a one-handed weapon, as you can continue to attack while using your other hand to grapple. I mean I guess that's what you use tavern brawler for, right?

[RogueJK]

There's no way my 9ft Goliath is ever going to attack with a finesse weapon so yall can stop doing math about Sneak Attack damage lol

Just because you can use DEX to attack, doesn't mean you have to use DEX to attack. STR is always an option with Finesse weapons. And as mentioned above, the existing Finesse weapons can be reflavored into more "barbarian appropriate" forms, while remaining mechanically the exact same thing.

[Unoriginal]

If I chose Monk or Druid, I'd want all 13 levels.

Then Astral Self would definitively be great.

[kazaryu]

I hear you - but what do you do about grapples. There's real merit to using a one-handed weapon, as you can continue to attack while using your other hand to grapple. I mean I guess that's what you use tavern brawler for, right?

2 hands just means grappling 2 people :P

to be clear i didn't put this in blue text because its semi serious. im not claiming that the rules actually allow this, i honestly haven't looked that deep into it. so in that sense its partially a joke. however, given that the DM doesn't sound like they're a major stickler for the rules anyway, its entirely possible they'd allow this. and i don't find that too unreasonable given that grappling is usually suboptimal anyway, so anything to let be more useful is pretty alright in my book...especially if its such and innocuous buff

[CTurbo]

Before he pretty much had to use a magic sword, his preferred style of fighting was as a brawler using punches, kicks, headbutts, knees, etc... Depending on the enemy, he could use 2 hands to grapple and either headbutt, knee to chest, slam, or throw. With Tavern Brawler, any of that is 1d4+Str damage. When possible, he would grab 2 enemies. The Pryo likes Wall of Fire so grappling enemies and pushing/tossing them into that is fun. He doesn't constantly grapple though. Sometimes just 2 big unarmed strikes and done.

The kids did like when I started using the +1 Greatsword because I pretty much doubled my damage going from 1d4+7 to 2d6+8. I don't want that, but may reluctantly give into them. My 10yr old nephew is a Battlemaster Fighter and I'm trying really hard not to out damage him which is exactly what I'm doing with the greatsword.

I guess he could keep a short sword around which would act like a dagger to him he's so big, but again, that's just not the style I'm going for.

Astral Self does seem pretty thematic.

I'm kinda surprised nobody has suggested Paladin. A quick +2 to Cha would get +3 to all saves and all spell slots could be used strictly for smiting. In the past I've played a Paladin with 12 Cha that I didn't even bother selecting any spells with. All slots went to smites and it worked. I wouldn't know which subclass to consider. I'm sure the DM would let me take unarmed fighting as the fighting style. Paladin 11 would have my unarmed strikes dealing a very respectable 2d8+Str damage.

Man too many options to consider lol

Drunken Master is growing on me and even Rune Knight sounds fun minus the actual runes lol I wonder if runes could be reskinned as tattoos.

I'm still going to ask about Moon Druid's wildshape. Would it be too much to ask that if I stuck strictly to Tiger, Lion, or Sabertooth, that my physical stats stay the same? I'm not trying to game the system, but I WOULD like to be able to make wildshaping into CR1 beats more viable at higher levels for the sake of flavor. Obviously I'm not asking to wildshape into a house cat and keep 20Str or anything silly.

[kazaryu]

Before he pretty much had to use a magic sword, his preferred style of fighting was as a brawler using punches, kicks, headbutts, knees, etc... Depending on the enemy, he could use 2 hands to grapple and either headbutt, knee to chest, slam, or throw. With Tavern Brawler, any of that is 1d4+Str damage. When possible, he would grab 2 enemies. The Pryo likes Wall of Fire so grappling enemies and pushing/tossing them into that is fun. He doesn't constantly grapple though. Sometimes just 2 big unarmed strikes and done.

The kids did like when I started using the +1 Greatsword because I pretty much doubled my damage going from 1d4+7 to 2d6+8. I don't want that, but may reluctantly give into them. My 10yr old nephew is a Battlemaster Fighter and I'm trying really hard not to out damage him which is exactly what I'm doing with the greatsword.

I guess he could keep a short sword around which would act like a dagger to him he's so big, but again, that's just not the style I'm going for.

Astral Self does seem pretty thematic.

I'm kinda surprised nobody has suggested Paladin. A quick +2 to Cha would get +3 to all saves and all spell slots could be used strictly for smiting. In the past I've played a Paladin with 12 Cha that I didn't even bother selecting any spells with. All slots went to smites and it worked. I wouldn't know which subclass to consider. I'm sure the DM would let me take unarmed fighting as the fighting style. Paladin 11 would have my unarmed strikes dealing a very respectable 2d8+Str damage.

Man too many options to consider lol

Drunken Master is growing on me and even Rune Knight sounds fun minus the actual runes lol I wonder if runes could be reskinned as tattoos.

I'm still going to ask about Moon Druid's wildshape. Would it be too much to ask that if I stuck strictly to Tiger, Lion, or Sabertooth, that my physical stats stay the same? I'm not trying to game the system, but I WOULD like to be able to make wildshaping into CR1 beats more viable at higher levels for the sake of flavor. Obviously I'm not asking to wildshape into a house cat and keep 20Str or anything silly.

paladins an option for sure. although it'd be 6 levels before you got aura of protection. and since you aren't really casting basically its just 6 levels of scaling smites up to that point. as far as subclass devotion gives charm immunity (in addition to paladins normal fear immunity)

[RogueJK]

paladins an option for sure. although it'd be 6 levels before you got aura of protection. and since you aren't really casting basically its just 6 levels of scaling smites up to that point.

Yep. And since you're specifically not wanting to increase your damage output, out of fear of overshadowing the Battlemaster, I don't see the point of even chasing just Smites...

[Amnestic]

I considered paladin because of the charisma stuff, but since you wanted a more unarmed focus than weapons I put it aside - it doesn't get unarmed fighting style (unlike fighter) and as standard Divine Smite doesn't work with fists (nor do you get magical fists at a later level).

If your DM lets you take unarmed fighting style with paladin and lets DS work on unarmed strikes it's more viable, you can still fuel your DS with spell slots while raging. At that point you just need to find an item that turns the fists magical when you need it.

[RogueJK]

After mulling it over, I agree with Unoriginal... I think the most viable way for you to mechanically achieve the specific concept that you're wanting is to switch to Astral Self or Ascendant Dragon Monk.

That's the quickest way for you to obtain a class feature that will get you the option to overcome resistance to your nonmagical unarmed strikes, with just 3 levels of Monk getting you access to unarmed strikes that do either force damage or elemental damage.

Of the two, Astral Self is less ideal, since it relies on using a Bonus Action and 1 Ki point to manifest your Astral Arms for force damage, so it isn't always available if you're out of Ki or your Bonus Action is taken up that round with something else (like Raging). Whereas Ascendant Dragon Monk can always do it, on every unarmed strike. Though Astral Arms has the benefit of allowing you to grapple additional foes at one time, up to 4 at a time...

Thematically, Ascendant Dragon Monk works quite well with your "wild magic/magical chaos" theme. You could even roll a d10 (standing in for a d5) to randomly determine the elemental damage of your punches each turn, similar to Chaos Bolt's damage type effect. Even the breath weapon and eventual magical wings could be a manifestation of your wild magic, rather than a dragon thing.

But going Monk renders Tavern Brawler basically redundant, as just 1 level of Monk gets you d4 unarmed strikes and a BA Martial Arts attack, so see if you can trade that out for a different feat.

Or, you'd have the option to keep Tavern Brawler and continue to wear armor to keep a slightly higher AC (17 with half plate vs. 14/16 with unarmored defense). Wearing armor negates your Martial Arts ability and your Monk speed boost, but doesn't negate any of your Ascendant Dragon subclass abilities, or even any of your other Monk class abilities. You'd still have 1d4 unarmed strikes from Tavern Brawler, you'd still have your Barbarian speed boost, and you'd still have the option of a BA Grapple or spending Ki on BA Flurry of Blows/Patient Defense/Step of the Wind. 1 point of higher AC probably isn't worth giving up Martial Arts' free third punch each turn and eventual scaling punch damage, though...

A Wild Magic Barbarian 6/Wild Magic Sorcerer 1/Ascendant Dragon Monk 3+ won't exactly be an optimized build, and takes until Character Level 10 to really come online, but it fits what you're wanting to achieve, and it could be fun. Plus you definitely won't have to worry about outdamaging your Battlemaster. :smallbiggrin:

Or, if you're able to respec a bit, you could be a Wild Magic Barbarian 3/Wild Magic Sorcerer 1/Ascendant Dragon Monk 3 right off the bat at your current Character Level 7. You're missing out on Extra Attack and the Barbarian +10 speed boost, and you're -1 daily Rage uses, but you have your second BA Martial Arts attack (and potential 3rd Flurry of Blows attack) to tide you over for the next 2 levels until you hit Monk 5 and regain Extra Attack, plus you have the same Monk speed boost of +10, and don't have to wait 3 more levels just to get elemental punch damage. The lack of an ASI doesn't matter, since you don't need the Tavern Brawler feat. Continue with Monk levels until you hit Monk 5 or 6, then consider whether to go back for Barbarian 4-6 or just keep on trucking along as a Monk.

[Corran]

There's no way my 9ft Goliath is ever going to attack with a finesse weapon so yall can stop doing math about Sneak Attack damage lol
Why not? A rapier would make an excellent toothpick after lunch.

I'd go druid. Wildshape into a cure little kitten, with a surprising bass meow making unaware people scratch their heads momentarily and making sense when they see the kitten transform into a giant.

[CTurbo]

The DM would let me take Unarmed Fighting with Paladin and also smite with punches so that's not a problem.

I don't want to outshine the Battlemaster, but I also don't want to be doing too little damage either especially when we eventually get to in T3 and T4. There's a balance in there somewhere I'm looking for. Smites adds some flexibility and Improved Divine Smite would make a decent final capstone. Just like if I go Echo Knight or Rune Knight, that 3rd attack would be the capstone.

I'm actually afraid that I'll be out damaging the Battlemaster too much as soon as I start taking Monk levels especially if I swap Tavern Brawler for Unarmed Fighting Style. I'd be making 3 sometimes 4 1d8+5+2 strikes per turn starting at character level 8. The Fighter is S&B with Dueling so he'll have to wait to level 11 before he could match that. He does have his maneuvers though that help. I'm actually going to try to talk the Fighter into take PAM next level which would boost him considerably. He could swap Dueling for Defense.

My Barb already does not use any armor so swapping to Monk or Moon Druid would be simple and easy.

Barb 6/Sorc 1 was the plan all along so I'm not interested in changing that. I actually really like the Wild Magic Barb's 6th level ability and make great use of it.

When I took Tavern Brawler at Barb 4, I knew all along that I would eventually swap it out, and had planned on Unarmed Fighting style, but now I'm leaning towards Skilled Expert for Expertise in Athletics. If I go Monk, I would still have d4 unarmed strikes anyway and that would keep me from outshining the Fighter for a while.

[Unoriginal]

Is the Eldritch Claw tattoo something you're happy to get for flavor or would it be a reluctant concession to effectiveness?

[CTurbo]

Is the Eldritch Claw tattoo something you're happy to get for flavor or would it be a reluctant concession to effectiveness?

The Eldritch Claw Tattoo seems almost like a necessity at this point. I'm getting one ASAP.

[Person_Man]

Maybe Thief Rogue? Tavern Brawler provides you with proficiency with improvised weapons. Grenades, alchemist fire, acid, holy water, etc, are improvised weapons, and like other thrown weapons you add your Str bonus to the attack and damage rolls. Fast Hands lets you do it (and lots of other interesting stuff) as a Bonus Action. Plus the extra damage from Sneak Attack is handy, and you get Cunning Action to make you more mobile when you need it.

Or maybe just ask for a respec as a straight Monk, or Barb 3/Monk X. Same concept with slightly better mechanics.

[Unoriginal]

The Eldritch Claw Tattoo seems almost like a necessity at this point. I'm getting one ASAP.

Not wanting to sond like a broken record, but I didn't think about it earlier:

Unless I'm mistaken, EC Tattoo + Astral Self = can grapple enemies within 20ft of you.

I think that does show there is more than damage dealing to the game. Especially if you retrain Tavern Brawler to get Expertise in Athletics.

[CTurbo]

I spoke to the DM some and he said we could try to figure out a way to make Moon Druid or Beastmaster Ranger viable despite starting so late in the char progression.

For Moon Druid, we talked about a way to spend spell slots to increase the combat power(and CR) of the Tiger/Saber-toothed Tiger in order to make it viable at all levels. I'm open to suggestions on this, but off the top of my head, I was thinking +1 to attack, damage, and AC for each level spell slot I use. So if I expend one 3rd level spell slot, I'd get a +3 to hit, damage, and AC which is a considerable boost. Another thing I was thinking about is if I continue to stick to wild shaping into big cats, their hit dice total always equals my char level. That alone keeps their HP reasonable for the level our characters are on. I don't want to wild shape into a 50hp Tiger in T3 and T4 and it last 1 round. This house rule would apply to only big cats and I'd be free to use other animal forms if I need aquatic or ariel, but I'd use the PHB form for those. I'd love to hear opinions on this? Also, even though I don't want this guy to be a competent spellcaster, there are probably a few spells I would take, but only a few. I may take some animal/plant related rituals too. I'm liking Heroes Feast if/when he got to Druid 9. He could prepare a meal not even realizing he's infusing it with magic. I'm also open to any spell that could be triggered or cast on accident too like Absorb Elements. One last thing to consider here is that I'll have both a Ring of Protection and the Eldritch Claw tattoo which will both still be effective in Wild Shape.

For Beastmaster Ranger, I'll list things the DM has agreed to if I decide to go this route.
1. I can use Revised Ranger which as far as I know is the strongest version. Correct me if I'm wrong there.
2. Since I wouldn't get it until char level 10, I could use the CR2 Sabertooth Tiger as my companion.
3. It would scale off of total char level and not just Ranger levels. That means immediately it would get two ASI increases in which I would boost Str to 22.
4. It's hit dice total would always equal mine giving it much more hp then normal.
5. He would consider letting me expend spell slots to boost it's combat prowess(similar to the Moon Druid option above if necessary although we don't think it would be needed.
6. I agreed to ignore the 3 bullet point of Primeval Awareness which is a headache for DMs.
7. My barb goes back to dealing 1+Str+Rage damage per hit when I get the companion which I am ok with. I could probably eventually take the Unarmed Fighting style(as feat). I'd take Blind Fighting at Ranger 2.


We agreed that we will adjust on the fly if something becomes too powerful or not powerful enough.


I'm still considering Monk, but I'm realizing that Monk levels make this character better at doing things this character likes to do, but doesn't really add a whole lot of NEW things except for the few subclass features. I've been a Monk in 5e a lot so maybe I should do something different. For the record the DM is afraid that I'd be too strong, compared to the Fighter, going Monk and taking the Unarmed Fighting Style.

Echo Knight Fighter is still as option, and we talked about a lot of fun things I could do with that. Yesterday I was leaning Monk over Fighter, but today I've flipped on that. If Druid or Beastmaster doesn't work out, this is probably what I end up doing.

We also talked about the possiblity of using a Figurine of wondrous power like Drizzt to have a sometimes Tiger companion. This could be an option if I end up Monk or Fighter.

[CTurbo]

For Moon Druid, we talked about a way to spend spell slots to increase the combat power(and CR) of the Tiger/Saber-toothed Tiger in order to make it viable at all levels. I'm open to suggestions on this, but off the top of my head, I was thinking +1 to attack, damage, and AC for each level spell slot I use. So if I expend one 3rd level spell slot, I'd get a +3 to hit, damage, and AC which is a considerable boost. Another thing I was thinking about is if I continue to stick to wild shaping into big cats, their hit dice total always equals my char level. That alone keeps their HP reasonable for the level our characters are on. I don't want to wild shape into a 50hp Tiger in T3 and T4 and it last 1 round. This house rule would apply to only big cats and I'd be free to use other animal forms if I need aquatic or ariel, but I'd use the PHB form for those. I'd love to hear opinions on this? Also, even though I don't want this guy to be a competent spellcaster, there are probably a few spells I would take, but only a few. I may take some animal/plant related rituals too. I'm liking Heroes Feast if/when he got to Druid 9. He could prepare a meal not even realizing he's infusing it with magic. I'm also open to any spell that could be triggered or cast on accident too like Absorb Elements. One last thing to consider here is that I'll have both a Ring of Protection and the Eldritch Claw tattoo which will both still be effective in Wild Shape.



Any good ideas on how I could use spell slots to boost combat viability? Moon Druids can already expend spell slots to heal which helps.

I was thinking that one 1st level spell slot could add +1 to attack, damage, and AC, and last for 1 round. I'm torn about higher slots though. Would a 2nd level spell slot be better to add +2 to attack, damage, and AC and last for one round, OR would it be better to add +1 to attack, damage, and AC, and last for TWO rounds? Maybe expending a spell slot just adds another damage die per level?

[kazaryu]

Any good ideas on how I could use spell slots to boost combat viability? Moon Druids can already expend spell slots to heal which helps.

I was thinking that one 1st level spell slot could add +1 to attack, damage, and AC, and last for 1 round. I'm torn about higher slots though. Would a 2nd level spell slot be better to add +2 to attack, damage, and AC and last for one round, OR would it be better to add +1 to attack, damage, and AC, and last for TWO rounds? Maybe expending a spell slot just adds another damage die per level?

it would require a bit of upfront work, but perhaps you could use something like that 'conjure beast' spell as a template and do something like 'whenever you wild shape you may choose to spend a spell slot, if you do then the form you transform into is enhanced in various ways' in fact you may even simply be able to treat your wild shaped form as the conjured beast itself (per the spell). Obviously for your character you'd only have that option when you choose to wild shape into some form of kitty (so no boosted air form for you). but either way something along those lines.

[CTurbo]

it would require a bit of upfront work, but perhaps you could use something like that 'conjure beast' spell as a template and do something like 'whenever you wild shape you may choose to spend a spell slot, if you do then the form you transform into is enhanced in various ways' in fact you may even simply be able to treat your wild shaped form as the conjured beast itself (per the spell). Obviously for your character you'd only have that option when you choose to wild shape into some form of kitty (so no boosted air form for you). but either way something along those lines.

Thanks for that. That's not a bad idea. I could do 1 hit die+ Con per spell slot level.

I've never in my life been so indecisive about a character before. At one point last night I had made up my mind to go Echo Knight, and even toyed with the idea of giving into the kids and taking GWM, but honestly I think I want the big kitty thing the most, but then again I still can't decide if I want to become the kitty or have it as a companion.


Decisions decisions.....

[kazaryu]

Thanks for that. That's not a bad idea. I could do 1 hit die+ Con per spell slot level.

I've never in my life been so indecisive about a character before. At one point last night I had made up my mind to go Echo Knight, and even toyed with the idea of giving into the kids and taking GWM, but honestly I think I want the big kitty thing the most, but then again I still can't decide if I want to become the kitty or have it as a companion.


Decisions decisions.....

it might take a while to come online, but there's also the idea that a paladins 'find steed' spell could be a kitty and act similarly to a rangers animal companion. obviously you need to wait until 2nd level paladin spells or get a scroll, but its another possibility. i definitely feel you on the choice paralysis tho. so many fun ideas and you can't do them all

[CTurbo]

Ok After talking to the kids, I've decided on Beastmaster Ranger. I just need to decide which version to use. I can use any, and I'm leaning towards the Ranger Revised, but I'm open to suggestions here.

I'll trade out Tavern Brawler for Skilled Expert(Athletics) and stick to having relatively weak unarmed strikes as agreed on for letting me use a CR2 Sabertooth Tiger as my companion. 1+Str+Rage damage for while.

Since this character is never going to be competent spell caster, I'm gonna ask if he can have "Speak With Animals" always on without having to cast it. I don't think this will break anything. Opinions?

In addition to weak unarmed strikes, I've agreed to not use the companion as a mount during combat.

He said we can adjust the power level of the companion as needed to keep it in line power wise. I'm gonna ask if I can get it at Ranger 2, but strictly use the base stat block to test it's power level so we can adjust from there.

I guess questions from here are-

1. Which Beastmaster version to use?
2. Any ideas on how to keep a CR2 beast competitive in T3 and T4? I'll gladly swap out spellcasting for a small combat boost.
3. Am I missing anything?

[kazaryu]

Ok After talking to the kids, I've decided on Beastmaster Ranger. I just need to decide which version to use. I can use any, and I'm leaning towards the Ranger Revised, but I'm open to suggestions here.

I'll trade out Tavern Brawler for Skilled Expert(Athletics) and stick to having relatively weak unarmed strikes as agreed on for letting me use a CR2 Sabertooth Tiger as my companion. 1+Str+Rage damage for while.

Since this character is never going to be competent spell caster, I'm gonna ask if he can have "Speak With Animals" always on without having to cast it. I don't think this will break anything. Opinions?

In addition to weak unarmed strikes, I've agreed to not use the companion as a mount during combat.

He said we can adjust the power level of the companion as needed to keep it in line power wise. I'm gonna ask if I can get it at Ranger 2, but strictly use the base stat block to test it's power level so we can adjust from there.

I guess questions from here are-

1. Which Beastmaster version to use?
2. Any ideas on how to keep a CR2 beast competitive in T3 and T4? I'll gladly swap out spellcasting for a small combat boost.
3. Am I missing anything?
in general how powerful always on speak with animals will be is entirely dependent on how helpful the DM decides animals are capable of being. so we can't really answer that question. as for your other questions

1. i haven't really followed the development of the various rangers.
2.a) my previous suggestion for using the summon beast spell as a template for beefing up wildshape could work just as well here, spend a spell slot to buff your kitty companion. easily could be flavored as you sharing your rage with it. I don't even think it'd be that broken for it to happen using the same BA you use to rage. im not certain it'd fully keep up in tier 3+ without the spell slots that full casters get in that tier, but its also meant to be alongside you, so...idk, could be fine. (to be clear: the reason i may seem hung up on that idea is that whenever im homebrewing, i first look at options that mimic things that already exist in game, especially if i don't need to stretch that mechanic. im not opposed to coming up with new mechanics, but if a mechanic exists that already does that thing, i prefer to not try to reinvent it).

b)alternatively, you could simply use the summon beats template as an idea just...always on scaling for the animal companion, that is if your DM is down with treating it all as the same class. essentially have your animal companion scale as though it was summoned with the highest spell slot you'd have available as a full caster of that level. theoretically the spell should already be designed to allow the summoned creature to be viable at high levels. obviously if the specific stats would be a bit too much (it would eventually get multi attack 4 i believe) you can adjust them for what you want. Im mostly suggesting the spell as just a starting point/template for how to do it, not necessarily suggesting that you strictly follow the numbers in the spell. you and your DM can decide if this would be strong enough that you'd need to give up the rangers spellcasting feature for it.

c) for a non summon beast related suggestion, you can look at the pathfinder druid/ranger and see how that companion scaled there for ideas.

[Quietus]

Ok After talking to the kids, I've decided on Beastmaster Ranger. I just need to decide which version to use. I can use any, and I'm leaning towards the Ranger Revised, but I'm open to suggestions here.

I'll trade out Tavern Brawler for Skilled Expert(Athletics) and stick to having relatively weak unarmed strikes as agreed on for letting me use a CR2 Sabertooth Tiger as my companion. 1+Str+Rage damage for while.

Since this character is never going to be competent spell caster, I'm gonna ask if he can have "Speak With Animals" always on without having to cast it. I don't think this will break anything. Opinions?

In addition to weak unarmed strikes, I've agreed to not use the companion as a mount during combat.

He said we can adjust the power level of the companion as needed to keep it in line power wise. I'm gonna ask if I can get it at Ranger 2, but strictly use the base stat block to test it's power level so we can adjust from there.

I guess questions from here are-

1. Which Beastmaster version to use?
2. Any ideas on how to keep a CR2 beast competitive in T3 and T4? I'll gladly swap out spellcasting for a small combat boost.
3. Am I missing anything?

With Ranger1, the Tasha's options lets you swap Favored Terrain for an expertise. You don't need Skill Expert.

Also, I just wanted to mention - someone else upthread brought up the idea of Swarmkeeper, and it might not be a bad idea to consider that. It's got a 1/turn effect that has three choices, you could lean into the thematics of random magic by having the swarm clearly be magical, and be doing its own thing. Is it going to push the target this turn? Do extra damage? Move you personally? Who knows, let's roll a d3 and find out!

To the Speak With Animals point - I believe another of Tasha's features gives you a free 1/day Speak With Animals, and adds it to your spells known. You could fold that into your "magic happens randomly", in that it isn't always on, but it triggers when you're actually trying to communicate with an animal.

[RogueJK]

On a normal Beastmaster, the TCoE Beastmaster Ranger is strictly better than the PHB Beastmaster Ranger, and still better than the UA Revised Beastmaster Ranger.

However, with this specific multiclass combo where the DM is tweaking the companion to allow a higher CR creature than usual, as well as the fact that you don't need Extra Attack from Ranger since you already have it from Barbarian, that might tilt things in favor of the Revised Ranger. (Revised Beastmaster Rangers don't get Extra Attack; Revised Ranger moved Extra Attack from a class ability to a subclass ability.)

Especially if the DM allows you to combine the Revised Ranger chassis with the TCoE optional Ranger abilities, plus use the boosted CR2 companion with the Revised Beastmaster style scaling. That would likely be the most powerful combo here.


And if you can use the TCoE optional abilities, I agree that you don't need Skill Expert, since you can gain Athletics Expertise at Ranger 1 with the Canny ability. That would open up the ability to swap for the Fighting Initiate Unarmed feat instead, to boost your unarmed strikes to 1d6/1d8 plus gain a little additional grapple damage each turn. Or just see if the DM will allow you to take Unarmed as your Ranger fighting style, even though it's not normally on their list, and then swap for some other feat besides Skill Expert or Fighting Initiate, like Crusher or Lucky.

[CTurbo]

I'm not very familiar with Tasha's beastmaster so I intend to read up on it which I plan to do later tonight.

Summon Beast is indeed a great benchmark to go off of with boosting the combat form of a low CR beast, but since I've chosen Ranger, it's a little less relevant now. Spell slot calculators say I'll only have three first level slots until Ranger 5 at which point I'll go to the normal four 1st and two 2nd level slots. I'll be char level 13 by that point. With the Ranger's limited slots, and the DM's willingness to ensure the Tiger is scaled accordingly, I don't think I'll have any issues with the slots. At least it will be a long time before it becomes an issue. Summon Beast does very similar to what I was thinking anyway adding the spell slot to AC and damage and gives +5 hp per level. I may need to use this with my 3rd and 4th level slots if/when I get them.

I can see the role play potential in him always having Speak With Animals on. He's dumb so I can just have him start doing it, and then act like it's always been something he's known how to do, just never thought to mention it before lol. He does have a 7 Int after all. Free casting once per day would likely be enough anyway.

That would be great if I could get free Athletics Expertise from Tasha's. I can't take Unarmed Fighting yet. I made an agreement with the DM that I would go back to 1+Str unarmed strikes for a while when I get a beefier companion. I could take Unarmed Fighting later in T4 if we get there. The problem with training out Tavern Brawler is I lose -1 to Con from that. Skill Expert let me keep that. I'd want to find something that boosts Con. I hadn't considered that before. I could take Crusher, but I already always have advantage on all my attacks. I considered Chef or Gourmand and my goofy guy could just become the party cook lol. The only other feats I think I'd want would be Alert, Mobile, or Sentinel. I may just keep Tavern Brawler for the +1 Con and Bonus Action Grapple. I still have to nerf it down to 1+Str punches though if I keep it, at least for now. I don't think I'd bother boosting Wis if I go Ranger. I'd rather max Con and/or bump Dex for more AC/Initiative.

I like that the Revised Ranger Beastmaster Conclave grants the companion an extra attack at Ranger 5. That stacks very well since I already have extra attack from Barb. Revised is VERY front loaded too. Natural Explorer adds a lot at level 1. Ranger 2 adds very little though, and Ranger 12 and 13 adds even less. I could maybe stop at Ranger 11 and sneak in 2 levels of Fighter or Monk later.

[RogueJK]

Spell slot calculators say I'll only have three first level slots until Ranger 5 at which point I'll go to the normal four 1st and two 2nd level slots. I'll be char level 13 by that point.

You forgot to take into account your 1 level of Sorcerer. Normally, a Ranger's spell slot progression would work like you stated, not gaining 4x 1st and 2x 2nd slots until Ranger 5. But with your Sorcerer level, you'll have:
Sorcerer 1/Ranger 2-3: 3x 1st slots
Sorcerer 1/Ranger 4: 4x 1st slots and 2x 2nd slots

Just no 2nd level spells known until Ranger 5.


I could take Crusher, but I already always have advantage on all my attacks.

The Advantage after a crit benefits everyone in your party, not just you alone.

And importantly, Crusher allows for forced movement each turn with your bludgeoning punches, without having to give up the damage of an attack in favor of a Shove attempt. And unlike a Shove attempt or some other forced movement options, there's no save or opposed check. It just happens, provided they're no bigger than size Large. This works great for thematic stuff like punching people off cliffs or walls, or for pairing with your party spellcaster to punch people into hazard spells like Wall of Fire/Spike Growth/Cloud of Daggers. So it makes Crusher fantastic for a big burly pugilist like this PC.




Or sticking with Skill Expert is fine, even if you're already going to be getting Athletics Expertise from Canny. Just means you'd have Expertise in two skills instead of just one. Plus the additional standard skill proficiency, which combined with the other additional skill proficiency gained from multiclassing into Ranger, means that going with Skill Expert plus taking 1 level of Ranger would net your PC 2x new Proficiencies and 2x Expertise.

Perception is a good option for a second Expertise, with how frequently it comes up. Or Intimidation could be a good option for this character in particular. Even if you have a low WIS/CHA, Expertise would make up for that and mean using the skill would still be viable.

[CTurbo]

I was using an online multiclass spell slot calculator and it said Sorc 1/Ranger 4 was still just three 1st level slots. I was thinking it would be what you said though. I just tried a different calculator, and it did give me 4, 2 like you said.

Ok I'm sold on Crusher. It's incredibly thematic and will give the Fighter a boost as he tends to not roll well. Plus I get to keep my 18 Con.

I do like Tasha's Deft Explorer and I'm going to ask if I can trade Primeval Awareness for it. I know that's trading a 3rd level feature for a 1st level feature, but I think it will be alright. The Revised Primeval Awareness is a DM nightmare anyway. Maybe I'll just use the Revised Beastmaster pasted on top of Tasha's base Ranger.

I kinda want Expertise in Intimidation for him, but he's not the type to try to scare when he'd just rather blunder in and fight.