Did Miko save the universe?

[137beth]

Yep, this is a Miko thread!

Back when I first started reading the forum, first as a lurker and eventually as a participant, there were a lot of arguments about Miko. In particular, there was plenty of speculation as to what would have happened if Miko had entered the throneroom during the battle just a few rounds later. Soon seemingly had Xykon and Redcloak at death's door, and he might have been able to kill Redcloak and destroy Xykon's body. Some even speculated that if Miko entered and saw Soon floating over Redcloak's corpse, he might have been able to stop her from destroying the gate and explain to her how to destroy Xykon's phylactery.

But would Soon and Miko killing Redcloak and Xykon actually be a bad thing? Sure, killing Xykon is probably good. But Thor needs a cleric of the Dark One to provide power to seal the rifts. Thor's exact words are (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html)

We only need a drop or so--one 9th-level spell slot should do it.

At the time of the Battle for Azure City, Redcloak didn't have 9th level spell slots: he gained them shortly before he destroyed The Resistance (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0826.html). During the Greysky City arc, Haley was unsure if any 17th level clerics existed in the world at all (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0579.html), let alone a 17th level cleric of the Dark One. If Soon had killed Redcloak, would another cleric of the Dark One have made it to 17th level?

Of course there are other possibilities. Maybe many lower-level goblin clerics could use lower level spell slots to accomplish the same thing, and Thor only specified using a ninth level slot because he knows Redcloak has them. Maybe other goblins would have been easier to convince than Redcloak, since they don't have his central character flaw. Or maybe Jirix or another goblin would have eventually gotten to 17th level before the Snarl or the gods destroyed the world.

But I think it's amusing to wonder whether Miko actually saved the universe by inadvertently saving Redcloak.

[Lord Torath]

But I think it's amusing to wonder whether Miko actually saved the universe by inadvertently saving Redcloak.I would say "No, she did not save the universe by saving Redcloak's life."

Redcloak is not the only priest of The Dark One, and should he have died, another goblinoid priest could have gained enough levels to be able to cast 9th level spells, and a cleric of Thor/Loki/Tiamat/Rat (okay, maybe not Rat - at least for a few decades or so for him to be less salty about having his worshipers killed) would still have the ability to convince that priest to cast a spell into one of the Rifts to permanently seal them.

So no, all she did was put the world more at risk. Had she not broken the sapphire, Redcloak and Xykon would have died/been destroyed, and the last three gates would not have been sundered (technically one still hasn't been). Durkon could still get his divine mission from Thor, though it would have a bit less urgency, since the gods would not have called a vote to discuss the timing of destroying the world.

Also, since the Red Cloak Crimson Mantle would now be in the hands of the Sapphire Guard (reduced to Hinjo, O'Chul, Lien, and Thanh), the next priest of The Dark One wouldn't even know about The Plan, and would possibly be easier to convince to aid in the sealing.

Edit:
It would certainly take the story in a different direction (and not one Rich was interested in exploring), so did she save The Story? Yes. But the world? No.

[Emberlily]

this is a deep hypothetical that's hard to argue definitively, but I do feel the remaining faithful of The Dark One might not be terribly willing to cooperate while their single most important religious artifact is held hostage by the group that killed all of the previous high priests for the past several decades. considering how hard a sell it's been to Redcloak thanks to his personal emotional hangups, I feel that might be, in this hypothetical, another big reason why it'd be unlikely for them to trust any plan sold by another god's priests. Especially since it's not a secret that the Crimson Mantle gives a connection to The Dark One, there'd almost certainly be a feeling of "what are they hiding".

But then again, it could be centuries of time remaining for the situation at play to change far beyond any predictability, so, yeah who knows?

[gbaji]

Well. Not going to put "saving the world" on Miko's resume on general priniciple, but there is also a question as to whether the whole "use the Dark One's Quiddity to seal the rifts" would have even come up at all in the short term. Once the immediate threat to the gates was gone, it's entirely possible that things would have just gone back to the status quo norm. Presumably one of the gods would have eventually gotten around to approaching TDO (or his high priest) at some point, but there's no certainty that would have happened in any immediate time frame, or that it would have been Thor and Durkon doing the approaching.

I feel more like it's the immediacy of the threat to ending the world, and possibly losing TDO in the ensuing period between world creation that is driving Thor to make this somewhat desperate attempt in the first place. If the world wasn't already heading into destruction, this may just not be something anyone would feel any urgency to take on. But at the end of the day, there's a lot of other variables at play than just whether Redcloak is alive.

So on the one hand we can say that Miko's actions inadvertently resulted in Redcloack surviving to be used to help seal the rifts, and also to create the conflict that requires it (in the short term). But on the other hand, perhaps with less urgency, and less bad blood between the folks involved, a longer term plan would have prevailed, and eventually TDO would have come around and worked with the other gods. Heck. We could even suggest that the death of his high priest, and possible loss of the Crimson Mantle in the process would have ended "The Plan", and TDO might have been more willing to talk instead. So by that calculation, Miko actually just put the world on a more perilous course than otherwise.

Again. Hard to say. Um... But given that her motivations were typically short-sighted Miko nonsense, I would not really give her credit either way. She certainly made things much worse in the short term. I can't say for certain that the slower "gods have more time to figure out how to approach TDO to deal with this" path would have guaranteed a higher rate of success, but it certainly would have had a lower risk of the current world ending in the immediate term.

[Zalam]

The Gates were doing a reasonable job of sealing away the rifts. Even without a four-colour seal, "spot weld the rifts" did actually seem to work in the Stickverse - heck, given TDO is part of the world, it might be the case that Stickverse characters born after TDO's ascension are four colour mortals.

Without the pressure of Redcloak aiming at mass deicide, the Gods have no reason to end the Stickverse early.

Redcloak is both a potential long-term solution to the Snarl, and the #1 reason for the gods to end the Stickverse.


But the future is impossible to predict, let alone alternate futures. To the extent that every single action ever taken leads to the present, sure, her actions saved the Stickverse (assuming it gets saved). But so did every stupid and/or evil act that played some part in creating the precise current Stickverse present. Yes, even that one.

[Manga Shoggoth]

The Gates were doing a reasonable job of sealing away the rifts. Even without a four-colour seal, "spot weld the rifts" did actually seem to work in the Stickverse - heck, given TDO is part of the world, it might be the case that Stickverse characters born after TDO's ascension are four colour mortals.

There's two issues here:

First, Spot-welding the rifts on its own isn't a permanent solution. Yes, they've been reinforced, but they've only been around got a generation or so - we don't know how long three-colour welds will last, even if it is possible to reproduce the process withing the secrecy constraints.

In the mean time, the problem will be increased as and when new rifts form and how quickly they are caught.

That's why Thor is interested in four-coloured welds - the new colour means that the welds will be stronger than the surroundings and will hold for long enough (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1142.html).

Second, It's not four-coloured mortals that are the issue, it is that the world itself is three-coloured. To get a four-coloured world they need to pull the current world and rebuild from scratch. To do that TDO needs to survive to the creation of the next world, and it is highly likley that he won't (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html). Four-colour welds on the rifts will give them that time.

[KorvinStarmast]

Yep, this is a Miko thread! Thank you. When the forum gets wrapped around other arguments, a Miko thread provides light entertainment. :smallbiggrin:

Soon seemingly had Xykon and Redcloak at death's door, and he might have been able to kill Redcloak and destroy Xykon's body. Some even speculated that if Miko entered and saw Soon floating over Redcloak's corpse, he might have been able to stop her from destroying the gate and explain to her how to destroy Xykon's phylactery. But that would have ended the story, and been unsatisfying since the Order not succeeding, but a many-years-dead-ghost-paladin stopping Xykon while Roy died, would have had fans chewing up pages of space with complaints.

If Soon had killed Redcloak, would another cleric of the Dark One have made it to 17th level?
Probably not without the Crimson Mantle, which I suspect Soon or Miko would have disposed of.

But I think it's amusing to wonder whether Miko actually saved the universe by inadvertently saving Redcloak. A hero in spite of herself. I suppose that's a way to look at it. Or maybe, she's an example of

Sometimes a cloud has a silver lining.


For Zalaam:

Redcloak is both a potential long-term solution to the Snarl, and the #1 reason for the gods to end the Stickverse. I like the way you presented that.

[Precure]

I'd say yes, she saved the world. As Thor said, only the new quiddity would work. And without Xykon, Nale and IFCC would still go after the gates.

[gbaji]

I'd say yes, she saved the world. As Thor said, only the new quiddity would work. And without Xykon, Nale and IFCC would still go after the gates.

The key is not what happens without Xykon, but that without Redcloak (well, the Crimson Mantle really) there is no threat of "The Plan", and "The Ritual" using a gate as a snarl threat to the outer planes. So... Nale and/or the IFCC have no real ability to do anything other than, I suppose just destroy the gates for the sake of destroying the world (which I doubt seriously Nale and the LG or anyone related to them has any interest in doing).

We don't know enough about the IFCC's objectives to know if they could have continued without Redcloak and Xykon chewing their way to where we are now. I suspect, based on statements that they made, that they needed the two sides to be in conflict (TE trying to capture gates to perform The Ritual, and the Order opposing them at each gate, resulting in each gate being destroyed, leading us to just one gate left). Take TE out of the equation, and that doesn't happen.

But whether that "saves the world" really depends on whether we believe that the broader plan of "get TDO or a high priest of TDO to use the fourth color to help seal the rifts" would have been on the table regardless of the current crisis situation. I tend to lean towards a "yes" answer on that. Maybe not in the shortish term we're seeing unfolding in the story, but that short term is only required *because* Redcloak and Xykon and the Mantle all survived that encounter (because of Miko), and thus we're pushed to the brink now. Take that away, and you have far less pressure to resolve this quickly.

Of course, then we wouldn't have the exciting dramatic story in which the OotS are the heroes of said story, so....

[Prinygod]

Its also possible that if Red cloak died and the cloak ended up in hands of the Azure Guard, the Dark one would feel pressured into talking to the other gods again, especially if working out a deal can save goblins from a possible "liberation" crusade.

[Crusher]

First, Spot-welding the rifts on its own isn't a permanent solution. Yes, they've been reinforced, but they've only been around got a generation or so - we don't know how long three-colour welds will last, even if it is possible to reproduce the process withing the secrecy constraints.

No, no. The rifts have been around for decades, ~80 years, maybe? And the rifts all appeared to be holding perfectly fine until Xykon and RC showed up. Given that the entire world is maybe 1,000 years old (and that's considered a decent run for a world already), that's actually pretty good. We don't know how long they would have held up without intervention from that point forward. But Soon and Draketooth were the only Scribblers (with gates) who were even dead before Xykon showed up and they both had fairly robust self-sustaining defensive systems in place. Serini and Dorukan probably didn't (don't?) have more than a couple more decades left, but they both also had decent defenses in place and probably would have made efforts to ensure things carried on after them if not for Xykon. And actual maintenance of the gates themselves has seemed pretty low on everyone's priority list compared to *defending/hiding* the gates, so I doubt they'd fall apart on their own soon.

If not for The Dark One's plan, its entirely possible the gates could have chugged along for centuries before the gates and their defensive systems finally collapsed. So, sure, that's not a permanent solution, but if they rolled along for another ~300 years before collapsing, dooming the world, they'd have been around for close to 1/3 of the entire duration of the Stickverse's world. That's pretty good in and of itself, but it'd also be a *dramatic* increase in the amount of time the Dark One had to store up energy. At least double, maybe triple (I forget when exactly the Dark One died), making it far more likely he'd survive the next planet-making session and giving the other gods far more time to talk him into their plan.

So, my point is: sure, Miko shattering the gate saved Redcloak for a possible save right now. But if she hadn't, there's a good chance the gates would have survived much longer (particularly if Soon noticed Lirian and Dorukan were stuck in that gem and told someone how to free them). Perhaps even long enough for The Dark One to store up enough energy to survive. And if the Dark One was actually involved in creating the world the next time, that'd probably solve the Snarl issue for good. Sure, I have a feeling the Order will find a way to pull that off now anyway, but it probably didn't look like a safe bet to Miko when she was standing in that throne room.

[KorvinStarmast]

No, no. The rifts have been around for decades, ~80 years, maybe? And the rifts all appeared to be holding perfectly fine until Xykon and RC showed up. Given that the entire world is maybe 1,000 years old (and that's considered a decent run for a world already), that's actually pretty good. We don't know how long they would have held up without intervention from that point forward. But Soon and Draketooth were the only Scribblers (with gates) who were even dead before Xykon showed up and they both had fairly robust self-sustaining defensive systems in place. Serini and Dorukan probably didn't (don't?) have more than a couple more decades left, but they both also had decent defenses in place and probably would have made efforts to ensure things carried on after them if not for Xykon. And actual maintenance of the gates themselves has seemed pretty low on everyone's priority list compared to *defending/hiding* the gates, so I doubt they'd fall apart on their own soon.

If not for The Dark One's plan, its entirely possible the gates could have chugged along for centuries before the gates and their defensive systems finally collapsed. So, sure, that's not a permanent solution, but if they rolled along for another ~300 years before collapsing, dooming the world, they'd have been around for close to 1/3 of the entire duration of the Stickverse's world. That's pretty good in and of itself, but it'd also be a *dramatic* increase in the amount of time the Dark One had to store up energy. At least double, maybe triple (I forget when exactly the Dark One died), making it far more likely he'd survive the next planet-making session and giving the other gods far more time to talk him into their plan.

So, my point is: sure, Miko shattering the gate saved Redcloak for a possible save right now. But if she hadn't, there's a good chance the gates would have survived much longer (particularly if Soon noticed Lirian and Dorukan were stuck in that gem and told someone how to free them). Perhaps even long enough for The Dark One to store up enough energy to survive. And if the Dark One was actually involved in creating the world the next time, that'd probably solve the Snarl issue for good. Sure, I have a feeling the Order will find a way to pull that off now anyway, but it probably didn't look like a safe bet to Miko when she was standing in that throne room. Here are a bunch of likes for this post. :smallsmile:

[MReav]

But I think it's amusing to wonder whether Miko actually saved the universe by inadvertently saving Redcloak.

By this logic, Xykon potentially saved the world, since he was able to grab Redcloak and fly out of there and if he didn't, Redcloak would have died when Miko detonated the Gate as he was too weak to move.

[Darth Paul]

Mark me down as finding it amusing that we can't seem to conceive of Miko intentionally saving the world, it would have to be by accident.

[hroþila]

Given that the entire world is maybe 1,000 years old
Nah, the world is older. We're in the year 1184 of the current calendar, which marks the time elapsed since the establishment of That Kingdom, but we don't know how old the world was when the current calendar was adopted. Thor said their worlds are up to "a few thousand years each, give or take" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1140.html), so the current world could be roughly 2,000-5,000 years old or thereabouts