Condescing to Elan?

[woweedd]

I know Elan's the dumb one and all, but I feel like recent-ish strips have been infantilizing him to an extent that's a bit off-putting. Him sitting out the meeting out of boredom and the gags about him and Haley where she acts like a mother to him is...I don't know, it's not as bad as the early days, but it feels...Off, somehow? Eh, might just be me.

[Metastachydium]

What bothers me most about these two is that Haley alternates between behaving like a mother to and having wild sex romps with Elan. That their respective levels of competence and cognitive faculties have a vast gulf between them doesn't help. Personally, I've always found the Roy+Celia relationship far more wholesome.

[hroþila]

I broadly agree, I think that while Elan needs to be somewhat childish sometimes it's taken too far to the point of being off-putting on occasion. If I may quote myself...

I think the reason this kind of interaction between them doesn't quite work for me is that I can't read simply it as "well, it's up to them" due to the prevalence of incredibly uneven relationships both in the real world and in fiction where the woman has to double as a partner and as a caregiver for the guy, who pretty much refuses to take responsibility for himself. "Well, it's up to them" works perfectly fine as long as the relationship is still balanced overall, but in those examples from the real world and from fiction it almost never is, which kinda spoils these moments in Haley and Elan's relationship for me even if I know perfectly well that there's no malice and, importantly, no carelessness or neglect in Elan's behaviour, and that he does his share of the emotional work.
Maybe we need to see more of Elan's caregiver side or something, I dunno. Because otherwise, as things stand right now, I feel that at some point in the future when Haley realizes that her character development is complete and that she doesn't need Elan or anyone else at her side to be a better person, she will have an epiphany about her current relationship and move on.

[woweedd]

What bothers me most about these two is that Haley alternates between behaving like a mother to and having wild sex romps with Elan. That their respective levels of competence and cognitive faculties have a vast gulf between them doesn't help. Personally, I've always found the Roy+Celia relationship far more wholesome.
For what it's worth, I don't think Elan is meant to read as mentally handicapped in any way. He's certainly not the brightest, but he's way smarter then, say, Thog, and even Thog is still smart enough to do, well, all the things D&D assumes of someone with an Int of 3 or higher IE determining right from wrong (having an alignment), speaking a language, and generally looking after himself on the daily while adventuring through a dangerous dungeon. Elan is cartoon dumb, not really mappable to the real world.


I broadly agree, I think that while Elan needs to be somewhat childish sometimes it's taken too far to the point of being off-putting on occasion. If I may quote myself...

Maybe we need to see more of Elan's caregiver side or something, I dunno. Because otherwise, as things stand right now, I feel that at some point in the future when Haley realizes that her character development is complete and that she doesn't need Elan or anyone else at her side to be a better person, she will have an epiphany about her current relationship and move on.
I think some of his bonding with Sunny was that. I'd be surprised if that doesn't pay off later on.

[Metastachydium]

For what it's worth, I don't think Elan is meant to read as mentally handicapped in any way.

Nor did I mean to say that. But their relationship is quite eminently asymmetrical nevertheless, plus "get him a glass of warm milk to settle down (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1154.html)" or, yes, "go play over there while the adults talk" and "the beast with two backs" don't mix all that well for me.

[Kish]

Elan's Intelligence and Wisdom are still low single digits. Haley does not consider that to make him inferior to her, nor will Rich write her coming to believe that it does and treat that as character development.

[hroþila]

We're not taking issue with Elan's low intelligence and wisdom though, but with a very specific manifestation of it - the way Elan is sometimes depicted as too childlike in his interactions with Haley, and Haley too much as his mom. This particular manifestation isn't all there is to their relationship and in fact I'd argue it's mostly a relatively recent development

[woweedd]

Elan's Intelligence and Wisdom are still low single digits. Haley does not consider that to make him inferior to her, nor will Rich write her coming to believe that it does and treat that as character development.

Oh, no, I understand, Elan's supposed to be dumb, but the specific way he's written is...I don't know, it's a bit weird. It's actually a lot better then the early days, but, ya know, it is a thing.

[Jasdoif]

We're not taking issue with Elan's low intelligence and wisdom though, but with a very specific manifestation of it - the way Elan is sometimes depicted as too childlike in his interactions with Haley, and Haley too much as his mom. This particular manifestation isn't all there is to their relationship and in fact I'd argue it's mostly a relatively recent developmentYeah, this sort of drift towards jokes that don't fit well enough to seem quite right is relatively (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1068.html) recent.

It's more noticeable on this topic because it's less superficial. Where (for example) the above linked comic doesn't come up again, and an earlier one (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0965.html) introduces and solves a problem as a delay to get the joke in; in these cases Elan's actually absent and the given reason for the absence is supposed to be the joke, so it's a little harder to extricate the intended comedy if the joke doesn't work for you.


All that said, I'm not sure why this topic is coming up now (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1286.html). Closest I could guess is Haley catching Elan, but it reminds me most of Westley catching Buttercup near the end of The Princess Bride and there wasn't anything untoward there.

[Goosefarble]

Nor did I mean to say that. But their relationship is quite eminently asymmetrical nevertheless, plus "get him a glass of warm milk to settle down (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1154.html)" or, yes, "go play over there while the adults talk" and "the beast with two backs" don't mix all that well for me.

I do take your point, but I don't really think it's a recent thing. The dinosaur rides in Bleedingham (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0726.html), him being afraid of the dark and wanting a lullaby sung to him (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0336.html), etc. The glass of milk thing seems perfectly in character for him in general, I try not to see it as a mommy thing.

[woweedd]

I do take your point, but I don't really think it's a recent thing. The dinosaur rides in Bleedingham (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0726.html), him being afraid of the dark and wanting a lullaby sung to him (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0336.html), etc. The glass of milk thing seems perfectly in character for him in general, I try not to see it as a mommy thing.

Yeah, as I said, it actually used to be a bit more emphasized, and faded as his character developed a bit more, while still remaining fairly immature, yes.


Yeah, this sort of drift towards jokes that don't fit well enough to seem quite right is relatively (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1068.html) recent.

It's more noticeable on this topic because it's less superficial. Where (for example) the above linked comic doesn't come up again, and an earlier one (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0965.html) introduces and solves a problem as a delay to get the joke in; in these cases Elan's actually absent and the given reason for the absence is supposed to be the joke, so it's a little harder to extricate the intended comedy if the joke doesn't work for you.


All that said, I'm not sure why this topic is coming up now (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1286.html). Closest I could guess is Haley catching Elan, but it reminds me most of Westley catching Buttercup near the end of The Princess Bride and there wasn't anything untoward there.
Full disclosure: I got in an argument in another venue with someone who seemed to read the rest of the party's behavior towards Elan as actually, like, abusive, and offensive. Granted, I disagree (it relied on a reading of Elan vis-a-vis real world mental illness that I don't think is supported), but it got me thinking that some of those scenes were a little uncomfortable.

[Jasdoif]

Full disclosure: I got in an argument in another venue with someone who seemed to read the rest of the party's behavior towards Elan as actually, like, abusive, and offensive. Granted, I disagree (it relied on a reading of Elan vis-a-vis real world mental illness that I don't think is supported), but it got me thinking that some of those scenes were a little uncomfortable.In that case, it's relevant to mention that the Therkla arc was (partly) meant to show Elan's emotional agency in staying committed to Haley even in her absence...which, yes, does make some of the later jokes seem a bit farther out of place.



...I also thought it would help emphasize Elan's loyalty to Haley to have a new love interest throw herself at him. Which is not to say that this was a true triangle; Elan was never going to cheat on Haley, period. But I thought if I could show him resisting the charms of a girl who was very much his type (athletic, sneaky, morally shady with a ponytail...sound like anyone?), it would help strengthen the fledgling relationship between him and Haley even as they were far apart.
Besides, why would I pass up an opportunity to reference The Princess Bride? (I mean, besides that I couldn't make a reference The Court Jester work despite how much closer Haley and Elan are to Jean and Hubert)

[Darth Paul]

Besides, why would I pass up an opportunity to reference The Princess Bride? (I mean, besides that I couldn't make a reference The Court Jester work despite how much closer Haley and Elan are to Jean and Hubert)

Just mention that the pellet with the poison's in the vessel with the pestle.

[brian 333]

Would it read better if it was Elan catching Haley?

For Haley, Elan is emotionally supportive and fully engaged. He listens to her and he understands her, and knowing her for her flaws, he loves her anyway. Ask any woman how rare and special that is.

Yes, Elan acts as childish as a husband who wants to go out with his friends to a football game wearing the team colors on his face in the hopes that they will get picked up on the national broadcast. In many superficial ways Elan is quite childish.

But in maters of their intimate relationship, Elan has always been the more mature of the two. He recognized and acted on it while Haley was struggling to even talk about it, he supported her through her family issues, and after being confronted by them, he accepted her judgement of his own family issues.

Elan is a more complex person than just the idiot-child some presume. He is neither an idiot, nor a child. He is a young man who loves his partner with all of his heart. He is a member of a team who is involved in a world-altering crisis, and he takes that very seriously. He also refuses to take life too seriously, and enjoys play and having fun at every opportunity.

[KorvinStarmast]

Nor did I mean to say that. But their relationship is quite eminently asymmetrical nevertheless, plus "get him a glass of warm milk to settle down (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1154.html)" or, yes, "go play over there while the adults talk" and "the beast with two backs" don't mix all that well for me. There is a trope inversion going on here. Smart guy/nice looking and kind bimbo has been switched with Smart Gal/nice looking and kind mimbo.

nor will Rich write her coming to believe that it does and treat that as character development. True. Besides being good looking, Elan's very nice to her and she responds to that ... she pointed out in DStP that she's been working with (censored)'s at the thieves guild (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0603.html)for much of her professional life.

All that said, I'm not sure why this topic is coming up now (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1286.html). Closest I could guess is Haley catching Elan, but it reminds me most of Westley catching Buttercup near the end of The Princess Bride and there wasn't anything untoward there. Wasn't it Fessig who caught her after she jumped out of the window? (Andre the Giant).

Besides, why would I pass up an opportunity to reference The Princess Bride? Fair. :smallsmile:

[Metastachydium]

I do take your point, but I don't really think it's a recent thing. The dinosaur rides in Bleedingham (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0726.html), him being afraid of the dark and wanting a lullaby sung to him (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0336.html), etc. The glass of milk thing seems perfectly in character for him in general, I try not to see it as a mommy thing.

I never said it's recent, though. And there's the key difference between the pillow thing and the milk thing that Elan sees Roy as an elder brother of sorts (which is a very interesting dynamic given both the Roy/Eric and the Elan/Nale thing). With Haley, it's almost as if there were two very incompatible relationship types going on.


Would it read better if it was Elan catching Haley?

That would make zero sense.


But in maters of their intimate relationship, Elan has always been the more mature of the two. He recognized and acted on it while Haley was struggling to even talk about it,

He was perfectly oblivious of the whole thing until after Haley yelled it in his face, though.


There is a trope inversion going on here. Smart guy/nice looking and kind bimbo has been switched with Smart Gal/nice looking and kind mimbo

I feel like it's taken a bit farther than that. For starters, the usual dynamic doesn't involve "go play somewhere else, then we'll have wild sex, after which I'll tuck you in with a glass of warm milk".

[Blue Dragon]

I will mostly talking things out of my system with this answer so no big deal just skip it if sounds too naïve.

1. I can see Elan behavior as something that's been used to keep the 6-to-10 years (behavior-wise) Sunny having something to do, but after all his development since Blood Runs in the Family and everything he did during Utterly Dwarfed it feels really out of place.

2. Even more after his own colleagues recognized a. their mistreatment of him, and b. how valuable he is to the party.

3. After Roy asks him if that was the moment to the final confrontation and opt to follow his leading he thinks is a good call to leave him out the character building session tactical reunion? I mean, I really missed Elan in "No Skill Points", you know. And frankly, "Batter's Eye" reads too much as a filler at this point.

4. I also get that the "warm milk" thing works as a callback to "Bedtime for Elan" giving the author's tendency to self-referencing but I don't think it works very well right now. I really thought they learned how to respect him.

5. And with all that (and what was said about it) I can't stop remembering Belkar's words in "Ship Abandon": "It's good you're finally ready to admit he's essentially your pet".

And that's it. Thanks for your time and have a nice week.

[Jasdoif]

Just mention that the pellet with the poison's in the vessel with the pestle.But what if the pellet with the poison's in the flagon with the dragon because they broke the chalice from the palace?

It's rather sad that that's the only (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJ9f2rnjB84) part (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zIWcCvQNqQ) of the movie that's well(?) known; other than the rough beginning it's a great movie showcasing Danny Kaye's talent for comedy. (Also I'm almost certain Jean is a rogue and rolled sneak attack damage twice....)


Wasn't it Fessig who caught her after she jumped out of the window? (Andre the Giant).Now that you mention it, I remember Fezzik did catch her....Apparently it's been far too long since I've actually seen the movie, better add it onto the list....

[Metastachydium]

3. After Roy asks him if that was the moment to the final confrontation and opt to follow his leading he thinks is a good call to leave him out the character building session tactical reunion? I mean, I really missed Elan in "No Skill Points", you know. And frankly, "Batter's Eye" reads too much as a filler at this point.

Why, that one's just DIRE FORESHADOWING! Elan's secret tertiary skillset will save the day! (What? It happened before, kind of, when it turned out he can ride.)

[littlebum2002]

I broadly agree, I think that while Elan needs to be somewhat childish sometimes it's taken too far to the point of being off-putting on occasion. If I may quote myself...

Maybe we need to see more of Elan's caregiver side or something, I dunno. Because otherwise, as things stand right now, I feel that at some point in the future when Haley realizes that her character development is complete and that she doesn't need Elan or anyone else at her side to be a better person, she will have an epiphany about her current relationship and move on.

You're absolutely right in that, in reality and in fiction, a woman is often seen as a caregiver for her male partner and expected to do all the things he's too incompetent to do. And you're also right that this usually results in an unhealthy relationship. However, there ARE people who have a caregiver kink and seek out a sexual partner who they can nurture and care for. Like all kinks, this can be healthy when done with safety and consent in mind.

This is personally how i choose to see Haley and Elan, simply because i don't want to see their relationship unravel because of the reasons you have given.

[brian 333]

He was perfectly oblivious of the whole thing until after Haley yelled it in his face, though.

Not quite. He was aware of Haley's interest from the time he was 'rescued' from Samantha and the bandits. From that point on he was interested only in her.

Note that he crashed through the window to rescue her from Nale before her confession.

[Fyraltari]

I found the glass of milk thing off-putting but Haley catching Elan doesn't feel motherly to me, just cute. Probably because O-Chul and Roy pancake themselves, meaning this doesn't portray Elan as being less-competent than average but Haley as being more (which makes perfect sense, she's always been more an acrobat than anyone else). She could have caught anyone but she catches Elan because she cares more about him than the other members of the party. Which is entirely appropriate for romantic partners.

[Metastachydium]

Not quite. He was aware of Haley's interest from the time he was 'rescued' from Samantha and the bandits. From that point on he was interested only in her.

Well, (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0161.html) that's not (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0184.html) how I (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0247.html) remember things (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0247.html), to be honest (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0309.html).

[brian 333]

Well, (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0161.html)

The answer is in the first comic you linked. Third panel.

Elan: Hmmm

He gets it there. You can tell by his very next statement in the fourth panel.

Elan: It's because she's younger than you and has a higher charisma.

Why would he suspect that that has anything to do with Haley being mad? And look, Haley gets even madder! He nailed it in one: jealousy.

From that point on in every comic you linked Elan is being a flirt and a tease, and playing oblivious to Haley's distress until she herself comes to terms with her feelings. He is far too good a bard to not know the tormented secret love trope when he sees it. Say whatever you want to say about Elan's intelligence, but he knows tropes and narrative convention.

And the moment he realizes she has come to terms with her feelings, without hesitation, he takes the next step. Three steps, actually. And a kiss.

And never, between Samantha and then, is he unfaithful. He does not even let himself be in a position that the prurient could interpret as compromising. And he's a Cha 18 bard.

[BaronOfHell]

Isn't the glass of milk thing a joke on how casters needs to rest to regain spells?

[Metastachydium]

The answer is in the first comic you linked. Third panel.

Elan: Hmmm

He gets it there.

No? This page contrasts his not getting it with V getting it, just as the ukulele one contrasts Elan not getting it with Roy getting it. Really the first hint he might be suspecting to something is the stare at sad!Haly after the New Year's Countdown Kiss Fiasco.

You can tell by his very next statement in the fourth panel.


Elan: It's because she's younger than you and has a higher charisma.

Why would he suspect that that has anything to do with Haley being mad? And look, Haley gets even madder! He nailed it in one: jealousy.

Not jealousy, envy. Elan thinks it's not about him, but rather about Samantha. V explicitly says he got it wrong.


From that point on in every comic you linked Elan is being a flirt and a tease, and playing oblivious to Haley's distress until she herself comes to terms with her feelings.

Muttering "I'm so confused" in the background, visibly confused is neither flirting, nor teasing. He's likewise surprised to be dragged to the date in Azure City, and once there, he pays more attention to the salt/pepper dispensers and Haley's croutons than Haley herself, while complimenting their waitress and playing by himself for long enough to let Haley have a monstre conversation with herself. If that's "hard to get teasing", Elan is a rectal orifice.


And the moment he realizes she has come to terms with her feelings, without hesitation, he takes the next step. Three steps, actually. And a kiss.

Nale plays him like a lute a moment before that, and it takes shouting it into his face in no unclear terms.


And never, between Samantha and then, is he unfaithful. He does not even let himself be in a position that the prurient could interpret as compromising. And he's a Cha 18 bard.

I literally linked literally intended to link a strip where he casually reaches for the Key to a One-Night Stand. (And it's not like he is ever "unfaithful" before the thing with Samantha in the main comic or Origin.)

[hamishspence]

I couldn't find the link in your posts - but I figured out which strip you're referring to - 302 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0302.html).

[Metastachydium]

Oops. I thought I put it in there, and I managed to forget I forgot. Thanks!

[Ionathus]

I found the glass of milk thing off-putting but Haley catching Elan doesn't feel motherly to me, just cute. Probably because O-Chul and Roy pancake themselves, meaning this doesn't portray Elan as being less-competent than average but Haley as being more (which makes perfect sense, she's always been more an acrobat than anyone else). She could have caught anyone but she catches Elan because she cares more about him than the other members of the party. Which is entirely appropriate for romantic partners.

This is my take. Haley is competent in this area (landing nimbly), and she supports Elan who doesn't have competency here as a lower-DEX character. It's playful and cute, and nothing more.

It's also playing into the "Elan as The Damsel" role reversal dynamic that has happened several times already. Elan is established as a capable-if-not-excellent fighter, but Haley is definitely stronger in combat while Elan is the pretty one who sings and keeps up team morale -- a classic Damsel role. I don't have any complaints about that part. I think it's great that he's not insecure about Haley's greater combat efficacy and is willing to be caught Fezzik-style by his girlfriend.

My discomfort about this topic only really came to a head when Elan got charmed by Sunny and then Haley was talking to him like a child right before Serini's trap got sprung on them. Since then we've also had the "go play with Sunny" scene, which seems like it was intended to be a joke about their similar short attention spans and inability to focus on long tactical discussions, but since Sunny is child-coded even more than Elan, he kind of "came down to their level" in that scene.

Ultimately, I like Haley & Elan's dynamic, I do think they work well together, and I like what their relationship does to play around with the traditional gender roles. But there have been a couple of recent jokes in a row that flanderized his immaturity a little too much and then put Haley in the role of the responsible one -- which has the unintentional effect of implying a responsibility unbalance in their relationship and getting into that "mothering" thing which is gross. If it was Roy reacting to Elan's shenanigans, this wouldn't be an issue at all, because that's just the much more benign "responsible leader reacts to irresponsible subordinate".

[Psepha]

Hmm. I think there's a different angle to take on some of this... I'm looking at this from the viewpoint of someone with ADHD, and I'm probably projecting onto Elan a little, but I think it's interesting to look at it from that viewpoint.

Before I go on, I do want to say that I have no idea if the Giant is actually writing Elan as someone with ADHD - it might simply be that by chance Elan happens to be a character I relate to a lot.

But a lot of the things being point out here just as easily say "ADHD" to me as they seem to be saying "childish" to a lot of other people, some things read as just fun/loving behaviour in relationships (both romantic and platonic) with a lot of cuteness and sense of humour, and that leaves a lot more wiggle room for accepting the (from my point of view) much smaller number of "questionable" things that are left over.

So to directly tackle some of the examples I've seen come up:


1. The meeting

So the idea that Elan just didn't want to participate because of boredom... I didn't see it as simply as that. Looking at #1259, I empathise with Elan in panel 9 so hard. "Meeting" here could easily translate to "focus, attention to detail, speed, and organisation" which can be challenging - Elan doesn't seem dismissive, he seems worried. He knows the importance of what's happening and his obligations - note that he's been present and engaged up until this point - but he knows his limitations and he's worried he's going to let people down or that he'll be looked at badly for his request.

And so he voiced his concerns (even though he seemed worried about it) and instead went and did something useful - alliance strengthening and retrieving Haley's bow.

After all, look at how much he struggled to sit quietly and focus while they were waiting to ambush Xykon (#1235 and #1236). Those last panels of #1235, oh man, I get it. I get it 100% - that thought process, confusion, and frustration with the struggle, it's just like that.

Now if you want to really dive into it, you could maybe even make the argument that Elan knows it will be futile. He could well be worried that he won't be able to keep it together through the meeting because the meeting won't achieve anything (which would cripple his motivation and make it even harder for him not to be disruptive) - if the whole party stays around for it, then more comic-time will be spent showing that meeting. And Elan is very clear on his stance about that - #836 (panel 9) and #971 (panel 2) give examples of Elan's awareness of the fact that planning only works if it's not actually shown or discussed in the comic. So you could even argue that Elan specifically contributed to the meeting by not being in it - instead, he gave an opportunity (#1270) to cut away from the meeting and give a better chance for effective planning to take place. For anyone else that would be pretty asinine reasoning, but for Elan? He's definitely got the genre-awareness to at least consider it.


2. Elan acting "childish"

So there's a few things with this. Firstly, let's not pretend that Elan isn't a bit childish at times. But that's not a bad thing - sometimes his "chilidishness" is just the fact that he's carefree and knows how to have fun without fretting about what others think about him.

But there have been a few specific things that seem to have caught a bit of attention. The first is when it comes to Elan going to bed. It's not really talked about much compared to other the symptoms that have much better marketing teams, but actually settling down and turning your brain off so you can go to sleep can be a huge challenge with ADHD. So Elan driving Roy crazy in #336 seems like that turned up to 11 for the sake of both humour and setting up the Nale appearance. And the whole glass of milk thing from #1154 - could be a similar thing, but tempered by the fact that he's got a loving partner who understands some of his struggles and is actively doing something to help - and again, it's then dialed up a bit for the sake of humour and run through the comedy-trope filter (it's a classic bit).

Then there's Sunny. To a certain extent, I just think Elan is mirroring Sunny. He's dealing with a child, and it's perfectly natural to soften your tone and behaviour and start mirroring a little more. And who has more empathy, trust-building, and social interaction skills than Elan? So he goes off and he plays with Sunny, encourages him around the things he's excited to show Sunny, and generally acts like a friendly, kind, and fun-loving adult interacting with a young child. And Elan certainly knows how to have fun and enjoy himself.


3. Haley and Elan

So this is a complex one. So let's start with the whole glass of milk thing. I can see why it looks infantilizing, and maybe it is a little - but considering what I mentioned before about the challenges of ADHD when it comes to sleep, take it from me that Elan is very lucky to have someone who understands, cares, and actively tries to help resolve it (warm milk really can help with sleep). It makes a HUGE difference. I think the real issue here isn't really the fact that she did that for Elan, it's more the way she came and reported it to Roy. And I think that's just a necessity of the comic really - aside from exaggerating things for comedy etc etc, it's just a bit of scene-setting - casters gotta rest, but it's not worth dedicating panels to establishing why some of the party are now missing (note that V's absence was also explained).

There was also the scene when Elan got charmed, and how Haley spoke to him before Serini ambushed them (#1238). I really don't think Haley was treating Elan like a child there. Look how ashamed Elan was in panel 2 - she's not being condescending, she's comforting and reassuring him. She's being gentle and kind because he's upset and feeling guilty. That's exactly what I want her to be doing there.


Pretty much everything gets exaggerated a bit for comedic effect or to lay out a bit of scene-setting etc etc, so factoring in for that I don't really see much problematic here. And to be completely honest, I'm trying really hard to be objective here but I'm probably taking this a bit too personally. I see a LOT of myself in Elan, and I recognise a lot of the support he's getting from Haley. Let me stress that I don't get the impression that anyone's set out to say anything malicious here, but to be honest a few things here feel a bit like... well, it's not a bad thing for someone in a relationship to be aware of things they can do to support and help their partner, and when you've got ADHD there's a lot of shame and judgement around some of the things we need help with. My wife does some of the things for me that Haley does for Elan, and that's not because she's become my "mother" - it's because she understands me and she cares. And since she's a different flavour of neuro-spicy to me, there's also things I do for her that others might not understand or might judge us for, but they make a huge difference for my wife.

Elan makes me feel seen in a lot of ways, and it makes me sad for the behaviours I relate to really hard to be held up as problematic. I am CERTAIN that's happened unintentionally, but I still wanted to say something, so... thanks for reading my big ol' ramble. :smallredface:

[Potatopeelerkin]

I do agree that it sometimes feels a bit weird when she acts like his mum, like in some of the comics previous commenters have linked. I thought the panel in this comic where she catches Elan was cute though. I'm pretty sure it was just because Haley, being a rogue, didn't fall flat on her face like Roy or O-Chul did, and decided to use her better reactions to make sure her boyfriend didn't get hurt too. I don't think there's much more to it than that.

[Precure]

I don't think anyone had a problem with Haley catching Elan scene. It's romantic, not childish.

[Ionathus]

So to directly tackle some of the examples I've seen come up:

I pretty much agree with you on points 1 and 2.


3. Haley and Elan

So this is a complex one. So let's start with the whole glass of milk thing. I can see why it looks infantilizing, and maybe it is a little - but considering what I mentioned before about the challenges of ADHD when it comes to sleep, take it from me that Elan is very lucky to have someone who understands, cares, and actively tries to help resolve it (warm milk really can help with sleep). It makes a HUGE difference. I think the real issue here isn't really the fact that she did that for Elan, it's more the way she came and reported it to Roy. And I think that's just a necessity of the comic really - aside from exaggerating things for comedy etc etc, it's just a bit of scene-setting - casters gotta rest, but it's not worth dedicating panels to establishing why some of the party are now missing (note that V's absence was also explained).

I think the important thing about this joke is that it's set up to make you think Haley is talking about Kudzu and then -- surprise! -- she was talking about an adult. That surprise switch is the humor and it more or less worked...but it does pretty unavoidably code Elan as a child in the scene, because the bait-and-switch setup puts him in the place of the literal infant the audience is expecting. A joke about "the casters need their beauty sleep" and a reference to Elan needing help calming down (possibly due to ADHD or similar?) is also in here, but that only comes after the joke about Kudzu.


There was also the scene when Elan got charmed, and how Haley spoke to him before Serini ambushed them (#1238). I really don't think Haley was treating Elan like a child there. Look how ashamed Elan was in panel 2 - she's not being condescending, she's comforting and reassuring him. She's being gentle and kind because he's upset and feeling guilty. That's exactly what I want her to be doing there.

That's fair. This is a very loose interpretation so if it reads one way to you and another to me, that's just the way it is. The things I didn't love about the scene were two lines of Haley's in that 2nd panel:

:haley:: "It's OK, I'm not mad, I'm just glad you're safe"

and

:haley:: "Then how about you pick up Lutey and come back out with me?"

Both of these lines sounded like something my own parents have said to me (in childhood), and nothing like something my wife has said. You could (and I did) interpret the first line as implying that Haley has authority over Elan – which is why he's apologizing to her and she's reassuring him she's not mad – and by extension that Haley (and Haley alone, since she used "I" instead of "we") is responsible for his safety. It doesn't help that "I'm not mad, I'm just glad you're safe" is a very archetypal line of Parent Dialogue in fiction. The same applies to that second line, especially the "Then how about you" at the start. That sounds like a thing I'd say to a toddler at the park: "C'mon Elan, why don't you pick up your firetruck and come this way? Don't you want ice cream?" Especially the fact that it's not a statement, it's a leading question.

If just these two lines were tweaked, the panel would read a lot more to me like two adults on equal footing:
:elan:: Haley!! I'm so sorry, I know I shouldn't have run off, I didn't want to but--
:haley:: It's OK, Elan, we know you were charmed. Is there anyone else in here?
:elan:: Besides Lutey? I don't think so.
:haley:: Great. Grab Lutey and let's get back into the tunnel.
Again, this is a personal thing. I get what you're saying about Haley wanting to be comforting and making sure Elan isn't feeling guilty. But a few word and tone choices were too reminiscent of my own parents instead of my partner.


Pretty much everything gets exaggerated a bit for comedic effect or to lay out a bit of scene-setting etc etc, so factoring in for that I don't really see much problematic here. And to be completely honest, I'm trying really hard to be objective here but I'm probably taking this a bit too personally. I see a LOT of myself in Elan, and I recognise a lot of the support he's getting from Haley. Let me stress that I don't get the impression that anyone's set out to say anything malicious here, but to be honest a few things here feel a bit like... well, it's not a bad thing for someone in a relationship to be aware of things they can do to support and help their partner, and when you've got ADHD there's a lot of shame and judgement around some of the things we need help with. My wife does some of the things for me that Haley does for Elan, and that's not because she's become my "mother" - it's because she understands me and she cares. And since she's a different flavour of neuro-spicy to me, there's also things I do for her that others might not understand or might judge us for, but they make a huge difference for my wife.

Elan makes me feel seen in a lot of ways, and it makes me sad for the behaviours I relate to really hard to be held up as problematic. I am CERTAIN that's happened unintentionally, but I still wanted to say something, so... thanks for reading my big ol' ramble. :smallredface:

I'm sorry that any part of this discussion has made you feel infantilized. I know that neurodivergence is very often cast in the light of immaturity and so it makes sense that this discussion in particular would sting.

For my part, I don't really have a problem with any of Elan's lines or behavior. He is, to me, a phenomenal example of a fictional character who doesn't have immediately obvious value to society (either tactically or socially) who nevertheless helps out in numerous ways and keeps the group going. His weaponized genre-savviness and his smooth talking are both frequently shown to be assets to the story, and it's been a long time since Elan himself has truly been the butt of a joke (rather than simply involved in the joke - a key difference).

It's the stuff surrounding him, especially isolated moments of Haley's behavior, that bother me the most. Part of this is societal -- there's a cliché of women in relationships being "the mature one", because when you have a wacky male main character and you want a foil, having the girlfriend be more responsible is an easy choice. Unfortunately women are also often expected to be the more responsible ones and the "caretakers" in relationships in real life. So when you've got one person in a relationship who is "conventionally" competent (Haley) and one who is "unconventionally" competent (Elan), it can be a tricky needle to thread. The missteps can wind up portraying only Haley as responsible or like she's managing Elan 24/7, which is particularly unfortunate because she's female and the society we live in frequently tries to cram women into that role (in both fiction and real life).

[Tubercular Ox]

(warm milk really can help with sleep).

How do you warm your milk? I've tried letting it sit out until it's room temperature, or putting it in the microwave for two minutes. I've read about putting it in a pan until it starts to brown, but that seems like too much effort.

[Jasdoif]

I'm looking at this from the viewpoint of someone with ADHD....You might be surprised how many viewpoints that could be. (https://adhd-alien.tumblr.com/post/615044955041300480)

[KorvinStarmast]

Condescing to Elan?

Do you mean Condescending to Elan?

[brian 333]

How do you warm your milk? I've tried letting it sit out until it's room temperature, or putting it in the microwave for two minutes. I've read about putting it in a pan until it starts to brown, but that seems like too much effort.

The surest way is to get nesting pots and put water in the larger, bring it to a boil, and turn off the heat. Then put the amount of milk you wish to warm in the smaller and float it on the boiled water until it is heated.

Caution: do not put so much water in the larger pot that it spills when you set the smaller pot on it.

Some people prefer the double boiler. You fill the lower pot with water and the upper pot with milk, and by the time the lower pot boils the upper pot is hot. Again, beware of scalding.

If you use the directly on the stovetop method, constant stirring is required because separation and clumping are possible.

All of these methods require knowledge of risks of and treatments for scalding.

I have never warmed milk in the microwave. Good luck.

[Doctor West]

Microwaving it is fine honestly, if you just want a quick glass so you can go back to trying to fall asleep. Try a couple minutes and be sure to stir it.

[Menarker]

If I could bring a new additional aspect to look at it from, Elan might feel comfortable with being mothered because out of the two parents he have had the experience of living with, it was his mother whom he respects and have a loving bond with. Compared to his rather recent violently negative experience with Tarquin, his father.
Also, he might see this nurturing side of Haley as new and encouraging development since Haley spent much of her life as a thief living in a scummy town where one has to harden their heart and do some nasty things to survive. So the fact that she can still have the heart and patience and enough of a maternal mindset in this context bodes well as practice for the future when he anticipates a child between the two of them.

[Liquor Box]

Elan and Hayley both choose to be in the relationship. Which, barring some sort of abuse, is really all that matters. People have different sorts of relationships, and bring different things to the relationship. Maybe Hayley is more mature, and Elan is better looking. If it were a real relationship, it would be a bit creepy outsiders looking in and tut tutting, but I guess as its a cartoon that's no big deal.

[KorvinStarmast]

it would be a bit creepy outsiders looking in and tut tutting
Ah, like having in-laws. :smallyuk:

[brian 333]

Elan is not simply the receiver in the relationship.

He brings a connection to his emotions that Haley has always suppressed. Remember the personifications of Haley's feelings? Elan shares an honesty of self that Haley can see as an example for her own behavior. Elan isn't afraid to feel, to be seen feeling, and to share those feelings. When he does it does not harm him. Haley needs that example for her own growth as a person.

Elan is not deceived by Haley's protective shell. Haley has hidden all her life, and as a result had lead a largely isolated life. She has never been able to trust anyone. Elan sees her at her best, and at her worst, and he still loves her. He has proven that he is worthy of being trusted, and that by reflection, she wants him to know he can trust her. Haley now knows that she is not alone, and she needs that to grow as a person.

Elan brings fun and romance into their relationship. He takes opportunities to say and do things to make Haley feel better, to smile, or to enjoy life. Haley has lived a life of a deadly serious nature. To relax and spend time with Elan just having fun is a new thing for her. Haley needs these moments to bring some joy into a life that was previously one of paranoia and selfishness.

When posters say that Haley is the mature half of the couple, they are specifically talking about what she has that Elan lacks. At the same time, they overlook the things she lacks which Elan offers in abundance. Things that Haley needs to grow as a person.

[KorvinStarmast]

Elan is not simply the receiver in the relationship.

He brings a connection to his emotions that Haley has always suppressed. Remember the personifications of Haley's feelings? Elan shares an honesty of self that Haley can see as an example for her own behavior. Elan isn't afraid to feel, to be seen feeling, and to share those feelings. When he does it does not harm him. Haley needs that example for her own growth as a person.

Elan is not deceived by Haley's protective shell. Haley has hidden all her life, and as a result had lead a largely isolated life. She has never been able to trust anyone. Elan sees her at her best, and at her worst, and he still loves her. He has proven that he is worthy of being trusted, and that by reflection, she wants him to know he can trust her. Haley now knows that she is not alone, and she needs that to grow as a person.

Elan brings fun and romance into their relationship. He takes opportunities to say and do things to make Haley feel better, to smile, or to enjoy life. Haley has lived a life of a deadly serious nature. To relax and spend time with Elan just having fun is a new thing for her. Haley needs these moments to bring some joy into a life that was previously one of paranoia and selfishness.

When posters say that Haley is the mature half of the couple, they are specifically talking about what she has that Elan lacks. At the same time, they overlook the things she lacks which Elan offers in abundance. Things that Haley needs to grow as a person. That is a very charitable analysis, but it does hang together pretty well.

[brian 333]

That is a very charitable analysis, but it does hang together pretty well.

Charitable? Care to explain?

My father was a construction worker in a time that encouraged underaged sons to work with their fathers. I did a lot of free apprenticeship hours! But, my dad made me work, at different times, with Mr. Jake and Mr. Ernest.

Mr. Jake was an alcoholic who could not function unless he had a half-pint with his breakfast and a half-pint with his lunch. From him I learned how to dress out power panels so neatly that I later impressed Navy Chiefs.

Mr. Ernest was a trim carpenter who was so crude and insulting that literally nobody could work with him for long. From him I learned to measure, cut, and install baseboards, cove molding, and every other facet of trim carpentry so that no wood filler was required to finish the job for paint. (Also impressed those same Navy Chiefs with my tolerance for being yelled at and insulted while still getting the job done.)

Two people who utterly failed at life in general had mastered and taught skills which made a lot of money for me in the years to come. From them I learned that people are not one-dimensional. As my father said, if you work with a dummy, at least you should learn what not to do.

Elan appears to be a dummy, yes. But he has mastery of skills that Haley and the rest of the Order barely understand. We see this repeatedly in comic. Why must I be charitable to notice that Elan, in some ways, is more mature than the ostensibly more mature Haley?

[Psepha]

How do you warm your milk? I've tried letting it sit out until it's room temperature, or putting it in the microwave for two minutes. I've read about putting it in a pan until it starts to brown, but that seems like too much effort.

I generally microwave it, but if I've got the energy for it then the best option is to put it in something and then sit that something inside a pan or bowl of hot water. That takes time and effort I generally can't muster at bed time though.


Elan is not simply the receiver in the relationship.

He brings a connection to his emotions that Haley has always suppressed. Remember the personifications of Haley's feelings? Elan shares an honesty of self that Haley can see as an example for her own behavior. Elan isn't afraid to feel, to be seen feeling, and to share those feelings. When he does it does not harm him. Haley needs that example for her own growth as a person.

Elan is not deceived by Haley's protective shell. Haley has hidden all her life, and as a result had lead a largely isolated life. She has never been able to trust anyone. Elan sees her at her best, and at her worst, and he still loves her. He has proven that he is worthy of being trusted, and that by reflection, she wants him to know he can trust her. Haley now knows that she is not alone, and she needs that to grow as a person.

Elan brings fun and romance into their relationship. He takes opportunities to say and do things to make Haley feel better, to smile, or to enjoy life. Haley has lived a life of a deadly serious nature. To relax and spend time with Elan just having fun is a new thing for her. Haley needs these moments to bring some joy into a life that was previously one of paranoia and selfishness.

When posters say that Haley is the mature half of the couple, they are specifically talking about what she has that Elan lacks. At the same time, they overlook the things she lacks which Elan offers in abundance. Things that Haley needs to grow as a person.

This is a great take, absolutely love it.

[Darth Paul]

Two people who utterly failed at life in general had mastered and taught skills which made a lot of money for me in the years to come. From them I learned that people are not one-dimensional. As my father said, if you work with a dummy, at least you should learn what not to do.


Oh yeah. Great life lesson.

Whenever I've had to train new officers, I always always always gave the following speech sometime during the shift:

"You can learn something every day. There's always something to learn. Learn from watching and listening to everyone around you, listen to your radio, see how everyone does their job. Sometimes, what you'll learn is how not to do the job. Although I hope that's not what you learned from me today."

[whitehelm]

That is a very charitable analysis, but it does hang together pretty well.

It's also what Haley said in-comic using more words (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0772.html)(panels 7,15), so I think it's very accurate.

[brian 333]

It's also what Haley said in-comic using more words (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0772.html)(panels 7,15), so I think it's very accurate.

I knew I got the idea somewhere...

[KorvinStarmast]

It's also what Haley said in-comic using more words (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0772.html)(panels 7,15), so I think it's very accurate.
Brevity is the soul of wit. That was a fail.
As Thog would say: talkie man rogue talkie too much

[WanderingMist]

Brevity is the soul of wit.[/I]

As stated by Polonius, the most oblivious character in Hamlet. The line is mocking those who believe this.

[KorvinStarmast]

As stated by Polonius, the most oblivious character in Hamlet. The line is mocking those who believe this. Given what Shakespeare's style was, that was (if one is to believe that intent) a bit self serving of him, don't you think?
(And as with other adages, such witticisms grow in usage and meaning over time).
(TBH, I think he was poking fun at himself, sort of a fourth wall break if you will, but that's not the only way to receive it).

[woweedd]

As stated by Polonius, the most oblivious character in Hamlet. The line is mocking those who believe this.

I was under the impression the joke isn't his belief, it's the mismatch, as Polonius is NEVER brief.

[Ionathus]

I was under the impression the joke isn't his belief, it's the mismatch, as Polonius is NEVER brief.

Idk man, he’s VERY fast at dying for what that’s worth

[Mic_128]

I feel like it's taken a bit farther than that. For starters, the usual dynamic doesn't involve "go play somewhere else, then we'll have wild sex, after which I'll tuck you in with a glass of warm milk".

Uh at what point did they break so Elan and Haley could have sex? Because I'm pretty sure that didn't happen and you're grossly exaggerating things by suggesting they banged in between going and playing and getting some milk before bed - as if only kids drink milk before bed.

[Metastachydium]

Uh at what point did they break so Elan and Haley could have sex?

They didn't.


Because I'm pretty sure that didn't happen and you're grossly exaggerating things by suggesting they banged in between going and playing and getting some milk before bed

I'm being hyperbolic here, yes, but it's mostly for the sake of brevity. What I mean is these two seem to be alternating between these modes in a manner I'm not sure I'm entirely comfortable with, the exact sequence of exact events alluded to notwithstanding.


- as if only kids drink milk before bed.

Well, adults, in my experience, rarely require that warm milk is brought to them after they were put to bed. Try to look at the thing in its context.

[Precure]

Well, at least it's confirmed now that Elan didn't notice it before.

[KorvinStarmast]

Well, at least it's confirmed now that Elan didn't notice it before. And she's still being condescending as of strip #1289.

[Malloon]

Elan is not simply the receiver in the relationship.



This. Their relationship may be atypical and not what we are looking for in a relationship (and if you are it's fine), but clearly it works for them. It's not toxic or abusive, so there's no problem with portraying it as a good thing. The only thing left that I can see that might make it a problem is if it's unrealistic such a manner that any real life relationship that looks like it would inherently or usually be abusive or toxic, even if it isn't in-story. And there are certainly unhealthy relationships where one side is parented by the other, but the crucial difference is in the quote above: In those relationships the person being parented is unwilling to pull their weight in the relationship, or the person parenting sees themself as superior and bosses the other around. Neither is true here.

This is clearly a reciprocal relationship where both members have hang-ups and limits that the other accepts, works around and offers support for.

I wouldn't want this type of relationship - except if you generalise it to the previous sentence, in which case I would -, but that's because I am neither like Elan nor like Haley.

Edit:


And she's still being condescending as of strip #1289.

I see this as more Haley working around her personal idiosyncrasies and Elan offering support.

[Precure]

And she's still being condescending as of strip #1289.

In this case, she's more like demanding.

[KorvinStarmast]

I see this as more Haley working around her personal idiosyncrasies and Elan offering support. Hmm, maybe. Looks more to me like emotional bullying. (My base disappointment with those panels is that they are written too much like low-grade sitcom dialogue).

In this case, she's more like demanding. Or that, perhaps a better term than bullying.

[Blue Dragon]

In the last strip she is downright abusive.

[Resileaf]

Gotta love how a not-real conversation written as a joke mostly for the setup of the end panel gag makes people jump at the 'toxic abusive relationship' accusations.

[Sir_Norbert]

Pro tip: When you descend to mocking the other side in a debate, it doesn't make the other side look weak; it makes it look like you know your side is weak.

#1289 made me uncomfortable, and still does. It's not a "not-real conversation". In the conversation that actually happens, Elan tells the truth about his feelings, and Haley guilt-trips him into erasing that truth and lying to her. It's not a thing that should happen in healthy relationships. The other characters joking about it doesn't make that any better. I'm not hugely bothered because it's just fiction and their relationship is one of the least interesting aspects of the ongoing story, but it's there.

[Resileaf]

It's a gag about minor relationship spats and Haley's insecurities with the end result being her bamboozling herself into not being insecure about it anymore.

[Liquor Box]

#1289 made me uncomfortable, and still does. It's not a "not-real conversation". In the conversation that actually happens, Elan tells the truth about his feelings, and Haley guilt-trips him into erasing that truth and lying to her. It's not a thing that should happen in healthy relationships. The other characters joking about it doesn't make that any better. I'm not hugely bothered because it's just fiction and their relationship is one of the least interesting aspects of the ongoing story, but it's there.

As I read it, he at no point felt guilty, and at no point lied. There was no deep emotional truth that Elan wanted to get out, that Hayley forced him to suppress. Elan wasn't invested at all, suffered no emotional trauma as a result of Hayley rationalising things they way she did. No harm done, and something that can absolutely happen in a healthy relationship.

[Kish]

I think their interaction here is certainly unusual. With two other people it could easily be extremely unhealthy on both or either side.

However.

They're not normal. One of them had her father yell at her for saying anything truthful to a stranger when she was a child; the other was in his mid-twenties before he learned that doing things that got people robbed and blown up was a moral issue. What works for them, what dynamics are healthy for them, have nothing to do with what should be expected to work for any random two people by default. Kind of like the way Roy and Celia would be shocked and deeply hurt if, just after they were reunited and acknowledged their feelings together, Roy wanted to spend hours talking about how much he had missed a hand puppet and/or Celia wanted to spend hours talking about how much she had missed her money, but it worked just fine for Elan and Haley.

(There is also absolutely no doubt in my mind that they both know that Elan didn't have romantic feelings for Haley until well after she developed romantic feelings for him, and that Haley just spun a fiction which Elan didn't outright endorse but acquiesced to because she would find it humiliating to contemplate that fact explicitly.)

[brian 333]

At some point one has to accept that his significant other is weird and just live with it. Because everyone is weird. No exceptions.

Haley romanticizing her relationship is neither toxic nor condescending, and Elan 'allowing' it does no harm to him. He accepts her weirdness.

If every relationship has to pass some of the tests proposed in this thread, all relationships are toxic and nobody should be together. Obviously, people want to be together. So, do you demand everyone be perfect? Obviously, we all fail. Or do you accept the weirdness of the person who knows yours and loves you anyway?

Romance is always an agreed upon fiction. It's fun. Watch those who have it. Join in, and build your own fantasy with someone.

Or be a Vulcan. Your choice.

[Kvess]

Elan is not a child. He is a man-child. Specifically a man-child living in a world where one's pure belief in storytelling and songs can manifest as bardic abilities which subtly warp reality. As this is a comedy adventure series, he also plays into comedic roles doing childlike things to setup punchlines.

Elan and Haley are by no means a perfect couple -- but those are equally as fictional as Elan and Haley. Real people sometimes do things to each other that aren't great. Sometimes those are deal-breakers; sometimes they're something all participants need to work through together. I don't expect this comic to be a didactic guide to maintaining healthy relationships.

[KorvinStarmast]

I don't expect this comic to be a didactic guide to maintaining healthy relationships. Nor was it written with that purpose. :smallbiggrin:

[brian 333]

Elan is not a child. He is a man-child. Specifically a man-child living in a world where one's pure belief in storytelling and songs can manifest as bardic abilities which subtly warp reality. As this is a comedy adventure series, he also plays into comedic roles doing childlike things to setup punchlines.

Elan and Haley are by no means a perfect couple -- but those are equally as fictional as Elan and Haley. Real people sometimes do things to each other that aren't great. Sometimes those are deal-breakers; sometimes they're something all participants need to work through together. I don't expect this comic to be a didactic guide to maintaining healthy relationships.


Nor was it written with that purpose. :smallbiggrin:

Agreed.

With all of this agreement going around, maybe we should send a delegation to The Snarl asking him to not be such a bad guy.