Does 5th ed need a spontaneous divine caster or is divine soul sorceror enough?

[Boci]

So a desire I've seen expressed a number of times as a DM is that a player wants to play a divine caster, but they don't like preparing spells everyday. Often, likely because of the sorcerer association, they also want to be Cha based. Maybe they like a race with a Cha bonus (less of an issue now with how 5e handles stats by default), prefer Cha based skills, or just they like the idea of a character who is charismatic more than one who is wise. All perfectly reasonable.

So, we have the divine souled sorceror. It gives access to the cleric casting list (even throws in cure wounds for free), and several feature are divine fluffed, but the class itself is arcane, and they have access to the sorcerors castinng list too.

So, if you have a playing that want a spontaneous, Cha based divine caster, and isn't 100% sold ob divine soul sorcerer, do you:

1. Insist they play divine souled sorceror, its the only RAW option after all.

2. Tweak the cleric to be Cha based and spontaneous. This shouldn't be too hard. Changing Wis to Cha is a downgrade save-wise, and likely neutral to slight downgrade skill wise. You don't need to change the saves the cleric gets, since it was already Wisdom and Charisma. So then you just give the spells known like a sorceror. I think this is a downgrade too, especially since certain healing spells are situational, so the opportunity cost for them is much higher. The only question then is whether the spells from the clerics domain are added to the list of spells available to be learned, or as spells known. I'd add them as spells known, I don't think that would be over tuned.

3. Make (or have already made) a new divine class to cater to this. You could base it off the 3.5 Favoured Soul, though I wouldn't recommend it, I seem to recall it was uninspired and had lukewarm reception at best. There is the much more successful Oracle from PF, which probably has enough in it to give you an entire framework for a 5e class and archetype (revelations and/or curses). Or you could base it off something entirely new.

[JackPhoenix]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: "Arcane" and "divine" casting is a meaningless distinction in 5e. That being said, getting to the actual question:

My first suggestion would be DS sorcerer, as that's the easiest, but if that absolutely won't do, I wouldn't bother convert a cleric into spontaneous caster... switch Wis to Cha, sure, mostly a downgrade without multiclassing, but you can just pick your spells when you get free spells prepared and never change them. The same result and the player's free to change spells if he changes his mind later. I certainly don't see why would I make an entirely new class for a concept that's much easier to cover in other way.

[Kane0]

You know you dont have to change your spells each day right? In my experience prepped casters dont change more than one or two around on a long rest anyways.

Regardless, theres also the celestial warlock and to an extent lore bard and stars druid. But if you want to change up mechanics then option 2 is perfectly cromulent.

[Zevox]

What you're talking about is not spontaneous casting (which is how all casters work in 5e). What you're referring to is the difference between casters who prepare their spells, and those who know their spells.

I would honestly find it quite strange for someone to express a strong desire to play a divine caster who was a spells known type, since I've never seen anyone express a preference for that over preparing spells - it's pretty much strictly a disadvantage by comparison, after all, since you only get to change one spell when you level up, rather than any spells whenever you long rest. If someone really wanted to, I'd say just play a Cleric and don't change your spells when you rest.

For charisma casting, my question would be why they want to do that? Because if it's for some kind of mechanical benefit, I'd probably say no. If there's some odd flavor reason, it would depend on what it was, but I may be more open to letting them play a Cleric that used charisma as a casting stat in that case.

[paladinn]

Back in 3e, "spontaneous casters" were a big deal, whether sorcerers or favored souls. In 5e, not so much, because All casters are "spontaneous." Personally I think the whole sorcerer class could be scrapped; it's a chore finding reasons to have them and features to distinguish. The divine soul is actually one reason To have them; psionics is another.

One of my favorite characters has been a DS/paladin multiclass. The beauty of a DS is that you eventually get access to all sorcerer and cleric spells, even if the flexibility is limited. You can blast and heal (and smite with the paladin).

[JonBeowulf]

Divine Soul Sorcerer or Celestial Warlock are pretty much the only options if you wanna go by the book. Working with the player to customize something to fit their idea may not be too difficult.

[RogueJK]

Take a look at Pathfinder's Oracle class. It's a CHA-based divine spontaneous caster. Might be able to mine some inspiration for a 5E homebrew class.

[AdAstra]

It's not like Clerics don't already have access to many arcane spells through domains. Sorcerer spells can be completely on theme for a divine caster, you just need to be more judicious about which ones you pick or come up with justifications for it. Divine Soul works just fine unless the player specifically wants armor. Simultaneously there's nothing obligating a Cleric to change their prepared spells, they can just not do it. For a Divine Soul Sorcerer that leans into the Divine, just pick more Cleric spells and restrict your sorcerer spells to ones that would make sense for the holy mojo you want to represent. God of light, feel free to grab some fire spells, maybe illusions, Sunbeam/Sunburst, that sorta thing. Depending on the god, you could very well get away with picking almost all Sorcerer spells, with only the occasional Cleric spell, and still make sense.

[Segev]

Yeah, I confess that I'm not sure what the player's concern is. If he doesn't want to change his spell loadout, he doesn't have to. The prepared casters have more spells prepared at any given time than the spells-known casters know, AND STILL cast spontaneously. I honestly think sorcerers are really stiffed on this front. So are rangers. Bards...bards might get enough to make up for it.

[KorvinStarmast]

You know you dont have to change your spells each day right? In my experience prepped casters dont change more than one or two around on a long rest anyways. I have noticed the same, but we do have a wizard who likes to fiddle. (Did, he quit playing recently, RL schedule change).

Regardless, there's also the celestial warlock and to an extent lore bard and stars druid. But if you want to change up mechanics then option 2 is perfectly cromulent. Celestial has a healing feature that makes choosing healing word not necessary. :smallsmile: It is a fine arcane+divine caster.

What you're talking about is not spontaneous casting (which is how all casters work in 5e). What you're referring to is the difference between casters who prepare their spells, and those who know their spells.

I would honestly find it quite strange for someone to express a strong desire to play a divine caster who was a spells known type,
I love my celestial warlock, thanks. :smallsmile:

Back in 3e, "spontaneous casters" were a big deal, whether sorcerers or favored souls. In 5e, not so much, because All casters are "spontaneous." Personally I think the whole sorcerer class could be scrapped; it's a chore finding reasons to have them and features to distinguish. The divine soul is actually one reason To have them; psionics is another. Agree with all but psionics.

One of my favorite characters has been a DS/paladin multiclass. The beauty of a DS is that you eventually get access to all sorcerer and cleric spells, even if the flexibility is limited. You can blast and heal (and smite with the paladin). It's a nice combo platter.

Divine Soul Sorcerer or Celestial Warlock are pretty much the only options if you wanna go by the book. They both work fine.

It's not like Clerics don't already have access to many arcane spells through domains. Also true.

Yeah, I confess that I'm not sure what the player's concern is. If he doesn't want to change his spell loadout, he doesn't have to. The prepared casters have more spells prepared at any given time than the spells-known casters know, AND STILL cast spontaneously. I honestly think sorcerers are really stiffed on this front. So are rangers. Bards...bards might get enough to make up for it.
And clerics get domain spells, which are usually quite useful.