Adjusting debuff spells for monk

[playswithfire]

So, this was a random thought I had for a subclass that works similarly to a four elements-style caster monk, spending x+1 ki to cast x-th level spells. But, rather than casting the spells the normal way, certain spells (so far, thinking Bane, Slow, and maybe Confusion) are modified in the following way:

- the range becomes self
- the casting time becomes a bonus action
- the text is changed to "until the spell ends, a creature you strike with a melee weapon attack suffers {the normal effects of failing the save on the spell} (there is no save) until the end of their next turn"

So, removing the save and replacing it with melee attacks to inflict the effect and, essentially, letting them automatically succeed on their save each turn. Just seemed like a way to have monks do interesting pressure point attacks.

Also debating whether
- the effect should last until the end of your next turn instead, like stunning strike
- the penalty imposed by Bane should scale with the martial arts die (either automatically or making use higher level slots)
- since Slow can hit up to six targets and a monk can only hit 2-4 creatures in a round max, does that lower the effective level of the spell (2nd level equivalent, learnable by monk at 6th level)

Any reasons (balance or flavor) that this feels like a bad idea to people?

[Ionathus]

First off: I like the sound of a debuff monk. Basically something a little more annoying than an Open Hand, that can cause chaos and disorder in the enemy ranks and weaken their attacks.

Generally, save effects and on-hit effects aren't considered interchangeable. Most on-hit (no save) effects are either extra damage or automatic grapple - any effect beyond that (like a Ghoul's paralyzing touch) usually requires a save of its own. So Confusion, for example, would become REALLY strong if you could brute force it just by hitting an opponent. Even Bane would become very strong, especially if you increased the die to match the Martial Arts die, because there are so few ways to reduce an enemy's saving throw bonuses that any options available (especially easily-repeatable ones) become very appealing. The ability to reduce saves on a hit, without the enemy needing to fail a save first? Probably broken.

Also, the way it's written feels like way too much bookkeeping. This is a Monk we're talking about, you're going to be hitting 2-4 times every turn even at early levels, does that mean the DM has to track which 2-4 monsters have a certain debuff each turn? That doesn't sound like a lot right now, but I guarantee you'd get a ton of "okay, wait, does THIS bandit have Slow now?" "No, no, that was last turn, now it's THIS bandit" exchanges, which can slow down combat quickly.

Honestly, I'd cut out the spellcasting mechanic entirely. My favorite Monk subclasses are the ones that key their extra features off of Flurry of Blows, because rewarding monks for using FoB encourages them to use this core feature of their class. I think it was a mistake to not do the same with 4 Elements. You could easily design your debuffs around that: a creature hit by your Flurry of Blows has [effect] applied for the next [minute]. Keep it a relatively minor effect: it would need to match the power level of Open Hand's FoB effects (Prone, Push, or No Reaction).

As for what that effect is? That's harder to say. You could give them a negative d4 to all attack rolls & ability checks -- weakening an enemy's attacks and ability checks is less broken than weakening their saving throws. You could cut some distance off their speed, though messing with speed can often swing between "pointless" and "too strong."

[playswithfire]

That's a fair point. I've always enjoyed monks but I've been toying around with a couple ways to mess with them that range from turning them into a full spell-point variant short rest half caster to something closer to bring back stances from 3.5 Tome of Battle.

This one was kind of doing both and might have also included things like Zephyr strike and Expeditious retreat instead of step of the wind.

But I do also concede the book keeping issue could get to be a pain, though it's not that different than who, if anyone had been stunned, except I have to keep paying for that effect.

I do see the appeal of just picking effects and have them tied to flurry; referencing spells just seemed like an easy way to get effects of a particular level, but I can see that turning them into on-hit vs save may unbalance them.

Thanks for the feedback