UA Knight Fighter: What happened?

[Nagog]

I've been looking at Fighter lately, and found the Knight UA that looks like a lot of fun, as well as offers some phenomenal proactive tanking abilities. I wasn't playing D&D at the time this came out, but I am very curious about what came of this UA? Rapid Strikes is present on a lot of UA from this era, and obviously that became a Samurai Fighter feature, but the better parts of this subclass are absent from published materials. What happened and why?

[Chaos Jackal]

It became the Cavalier subclass.

[Nagog]

It became the Cavalier subclass.

I totally forgot that existed. That's a shame: the UA Knight is so nice, and the Cavalier is... well... not.

[Arkhios]

I totally forgot that existed. That's a shame: the UA Knight is so nice, and the Cavalier is... well... not.

What part of Cavalier is not nice? Cavalier is perhaps the best "tank" archetype for fighters there is. Maybe even for the whole game.

[stoutstien]

What part of Cavalier is not nice? Cavalier is perhaps the best "tank" archetype for fighters there is. Maybe even for the whole game.

Eh. It's not even in the top 3 until lv 10+ but still nowhere near the top. Too many range restrictions and has few tool in dealing with challenges that fighters aren't already built to handle.

They do oddly make decent strikers with a side of mitigation.

[Nagog]

What part of Cavalier is not nice? Cavalier is perhaps the best "tank" archetype for fighters there is. Maybe even for the whole game.

Unwavering Mark on the Knight was a great Opportunity Attack and Proactive Tanking option.

On the cavalier it is so hampered and red taped it's hardly worth the effort. The disadvantage on attacking allies is only while they're within 5ft of you (not even just within your weapon range), and if they damage somebody you can't immediately punish them you have to wait until your turn and *if* they're still alive and within your range you can expend your Bonus Action to make an attack. Also having that attack limited to a number of times per day equal to your Strength mod is... Bad. It closes the door on Dex Cavaliers, as well as takes something already finnicky and makes it even more limited in scope.

Vigilant Defender is a decent ability, but as a capstone it's very lacking. One reaction per turn instead of per round is nice, but it being limited to Attacks of Opportunity (which no longer have support in the rest of the subclass) and once per turn means that there isn't a ton of synergy with feats or party member stuff to trigger multiple AoOs across multiple turns.

All in all, it's not as bad as some, Champion has far fewer active abilities, but it has some of the lowest appeal of all Fighter subclasses.

[RogueJK]

Yeah, the limitations on the Cavalier's Unwavering Mark tanking abilities are way too restrictive.

First of all, the Disadvantage portion should be more like the Armorer Artificer's Thunder Gauntlets or Ancestral Guardian Barbarian's Ancestral Protectors, with the Disadvantage if attacking others applying regardless of their proximity to you.

Secondly, the punishing attack portion should be usable much more often, and not tied to your STR. Something like just giving them the second Sentinel feat ability to make a opportunity attack if they try to attack someone else, plus make it not use your Reaction and have the added the ability to attach the additional 1/2 Fighter Level bonus damage to one of these attacks PB times per short rest, in order to make it better than the feat alone.

Cavaliers already get the rest of Sentinel and more at Level 10 anyway, so this would just effectively give them Improved Sentinel in two parts as a subclass ability, with the additional usability and damage boost over someone else who just took the feat.

[Person_Man]

Agreed that the Cavalier is too hampered by fiddly restrictions. But a DM might allow a homebrew fix. Maybe:

Level 3: Enemies have disadvantage on attack rolls against your allies within 5 feet of you (unless they also have this feature or a similar ability which imposes disadvantage on attacks against you). At cavalier level 7 the range of this ability increases to 15 feet, and at level 15 it increases to 30 feet.

Level 7: When you or an adjacent ally is hit with a weapon attack that isn’t a critical hit, you can use your Reaction to add +5 to your AC for that attack, potentially turning that hit into a miss.

Level 15: Once per turn when you hit an enemy with a weapon attack, you gain one free Shove attempt against that enemy or an enemy adjacent to your initial target.

Level 18: When you make an Opportunity Attack against an enemy, it does not consume your Reaction, though you are limited to making one Opportunity Attack per turn. You also gain Advantage on all Opportunity Attacks.

[titi]

Vigilant Defender is a decent ability, but as a capstone it's very lacking. One reaction per turn instead of per round is nice, but it being limited to Attacks of Opportunity (which no longer have support in the rest of the subclass)

You mean beside Hold the Line ?

I do agree that limiting it to AoO is a bit weird, considering they get a special reaction at lvl 7

[Bosh]

Yeah, the limitations on the Cavalier's Unwavering Mark tanking abilities are way too restrictive.

First of all, the Disadvantage portion should be more like the Armorer Artificer's Thunder Gauntlets or Ancestral Guardian Barbarian's Ancestral Protectors, with the Disadvantage if attacking others applying regardless of their proximity to you.

Secondly, the punishing attack portion should be usable much more often, and not tied to your STR. Something like just giving them the second Sentinel feat ability to make a opportunity attack if they try to attack someone else, plus make it not use your Reaction and have the added the ability to attach the additional 1/2 Fighter Level bonus damage to one of these attacks PB times per short rest, in order to make it better than the feat alone.

Cavaliers already get the rest of Sentinel and more at Level 10 anyway, so this would just effectively give them Improved Sentinel in two parts as a subclass ability, with the additional usability and damage boost over someone else who just took the feat.

Yup, especially since an Ancestral Guardian can tag one dude to protect one ally and then move around to help defend another ally with Sentinel or what have you.

[Kane0]

...Huh, yeah you're right. I never got why the Cavalier version had those Str/LR and Con/LR restrictions.


If I were making my own...

Born to the Saddle (3rd):
- Animal Handling proficiency, or expertise if you're already proficient (I make mounts a tool proficiency like land and water vehicles but it's much the same)
- Advantage on saves to avoid falling off mount
- Mounting/dismounting only cost 5' movement

Unwavering Mark (3rd):
A creature you hit with a melee attack on your turn has disadvantage on attack rolls against targets other than you until the start of your next turn.

Hold the Line (7th):
Creatures provoke an opportunity attack from you when they move 5 feet or more while within your reach.

Warding Maneuver (10th):
Once per turn, you can add your Fighter level to the damage of an attack you make using your Reaction.

Ferocious Charger (15th):
Once per turn, if you move at least 10 feet in a straight line immediately before attacking a creature you gain advantage on that attack or shove attempt, or forego that advantage to make an extra attack or shove attempt against that creature.

Vigilant Defender (18th):
Opportunity Attacks do not consume your reaction, but you can't make more than one each turn

[Nagog]

Agreed that the Cavalier is too hampered by fiddly restrictions. But a DM might allow a homebrew fix. Maybe:

Level 3: Enemies have disadvantage on attack rolls against your allies within 5 feet of you (unless they also have this feature or a similar ability which imposes disadvantage on attacks against you). At cavalier level 7 the range of this ability increases to 15 feet, and at level 15 it increases to 30 feet.

Level 7: When you or an adjacent ally is hit with a weapon attack that isn’t a critical hit, you can use your Reaction to add +5 to your AC for that attack, potentially turning that hit into a miss.

Level 15: Once per turn when you hit an enemy with a weapon attack, you gain one free Shove attempt against that enemy or an enemy adjacent to your initial target.

Level 18: When you make an Opportunity Attack against an enemy, it does not consume your Reaction, though you are limited to making one Opportunity Attack per turn. You also gain Advantage on all Opportunity Attacks.

This looks like a pretty great Fighter subclass, but imo it doesn't have enough in common with Cavalier for it to be a rewrite. That said, it's still phenomenal as it's own thing.

[Skrum]

Idk that's here nor there, but Cavalier should get Mounted Combatant as a bonus feat. It's essentially required for a non-paladin or ranger character that wants to use mounts, and the thought of hard-buying a very limited feat (outside of games customized to favor mounts) is very painful.

[RogueJK]

Even with the Mounted Combatant feat (free or otherwise), a basic RAW mount won't survive past early Tier 1 combat. Even if they're not sucking up any attacks because they're all being redirected to the rider via Mounted Combatant, they simply don't have the Hit Points or saving throw bonuses to survive Tier 2+ AoE damage (even if halved via Mounted Combatant) or shrug off any nasty single target damage saves or save-or-suck status effects.

The best standard mount - the Warhorse - has a mere 19 HP, and has +4/+1/+1/-4/+1/-2 to their saving throws so they're not going to be making many saves besides the occasional STR...

About the only way to keep a standard mount viable is to institute some sort of homebrew mount scaling system.

As a result, despite their subclass ability encouraging mounted combat and even if they got the Mounted Combatant feat for free, barring some homebrew mechanism to scale the mount's survivability the Cavalier would still be a poor choice for a mounted PC, compared to other much more viable options like a Paladin or Bard with Find Steed/Find Greater Steed buffed with shared spells, or a Beastmaster/Drakewarden/Battle Smith riding their companion who scales with your class levels.

Plus when - not if - any of those other mount options die, they can magically be brought right back. Whereas the Cavalier would have to travel with a big herd of spare warhorses to replace the ones that get blown out from under them every single combat.

[Skrum]

Even with the Mounted Combatant feat (free or otherwise), a basic RAW mount won't survive past early Tier 1 combat. Even if they're not sucking up any attacks because they're all being redirected to the rider via Mounted Combatant, they simply don't have the Hit Points or saving throw bonuses to survive Tier 2+ AoE damage (even if halved via Mounted Combatant) or shrug off any nasty single target damage saves or save-or-suck status effects.

The best standard mount - the Warhorse - has a mere 19 HP, and has +4/+1/+1/-4/+1/-2 to their saving throws so they're not going to be making many saves besides the occasional STR...

About the only way to keep a standard mount viable is to institute some sort of homebrew mount scaling system.

As a result, despite their subclass ability encouraging mounted combat and even if they got the Mounted Combatant feat for free, barring some homebrew mechanism to scale the mount's survivability the Cavalier would still be a poor choice for a mounted PC, compared to other much more viable options like a Paladin or Bard with Find Steed/Find Greater Steed buffed with shared spells, or a Beastmaster/Drakewarden/Battle Smith riding their companion who scales with your class levels.

Plus when - not if - any of those other mount options die, they can magically be brought right back. Whereas the Cavalier would have to travel with a big herd of spare warhorses to replace the ones that get blown out from under them every single combat.


Absolutely true, but homebrew is homebrew...Cavaliers should at least get the system's existing "mounted combat" option.

If I were to give Cavalier's an additional way to protect their mount, I'd be inclined towards something like At level 3, at the beginning of each of your turns, your mount gains temporary hit points equal to your fighter level. At level 7 your mount gains a bonus on saving throws equal to your proficiency bonus. At level 10, when your mount is reduced to 0, you may use your reaction to make an Animal Handling check with a DC equal to the damage your mount took that reduced it to zero. Succeed, and the mount is reduced to 1 instead.

A cavalier's mount shouldn't be impossible to kill, but it shouldn't die to incidental attacks or the barest whiff of enemy attention.

[LudicSavant]

What part of Cavalier is not nice? Cavalier is perhaps the best "tank" archetype for fighters there is. Maybe even for the whole game.

I think other Fighter subclasses would beg to differ.
https://i.imgflip.com/6c62ct.jpg

Cavalier misses the kiting dragon with their Sentinel-like attack after getting knocked prone by its legendary Wing Attack. Rune Knight chokeslams dragon out of the sky.

Cavalier sees ally get hit, and goes "well damn, they weren't within 5 feet of me." Rune Knight sees an ally get crit, and makes it pulp the villain's best friend (no save).

Cavalier has 1 bonus proficiency or a language. Rune Knight has a bonus tool proficiency and language, perma-Advantage on up to 6 skills, Expertise on all tools (including thieves tools and the like), the ability to reroll checks, double-range Darkvision, and Surprise immunity.

Cavalier can give +1d8 AC and Resistance vs a single attack 3 times a day (w/ 16 Con). In a 2 short rest day, a Rune Knight can get Persistent Rage-style resistance 3-6 times a day, the ability to reroll enemy hits and crits 2-6 times per day, the ability to redirect successful enemy hits and crits 3-6 times a day, the ability to go into "inflict Advantage or Disadvantage on a d20 roll 1/turn" mode for 10 rounds 3-6 times a day, and incapacitate a foe as a Reaction 3-6 times a day (with that being the only option so far offering a save).

Cavalier can make a bonus action attack with Advantage and +1-10 damage 3-5 times a day (If they first mark that enemy, then that enemy damages an ally on the next turn, then they attack that enemy again on the next turn). Rune Knight gets +1d6-+1d10 extra damage per turn for 2-6 combats (with very little chance of that damage missing since it's "if at least one attack hits" not "if a specific attack hits"), plus a Divine Smite with an extra Restrain + Damage Over Time effect 3-6 times a day, plus the ability to redirect attacks and all of their damage (after seeing the roll, even if it's a crit) with no save 3-6 times a day as a Reaction.

Cavalier (at level 15) can knock someone prone on a linear charge if they fail a Str save. Level 15 Rune Knight suddenly has over 40 resources per day which are all good, and has been Zangiefing giant legendary creatures with no save for their entire career.

Cavalier is pretty much locked to a Str playstyle. I've been comparing to a Str-based Rune Knight, but Rune Knights are also good on Dex builds.

Edit: It's not just the Rune Knight either.

Eldritch Knight for instance is making people vaporize on Shadow Blade + Booming Blade OAs (instead of merely slowing them). And their defenses are far more resilient (and at many levels, usable more often) than the Cavalier's.

Battle Master is crippling enemy offense with fear, pushes, and so forth, has better defensive buffs and punishes than Cavalier, and gets its damage out when it needs to, rather than waiting for a specific marked enemy to jump through various hoops to set up an above-average bonus action against that specific enemy. Things like Brace and Bait and Switch can be used more than Warding Maneuver and are arguably better.

[Arkhios]

I think other Fighter subclasses would beg to differ.
https://i.imgflip.com/6c62ct.jpg
-snipped heavy text-

I feel like stomped on, like, literally, but you make a very solid point.

[Jerrykhor]

What Cavaliers need is the Find Steed spell. It says a lot when a subclass dedicated to mounted combat is worse than a class that barely tries at all.

Most DMs don't need to pay special attention to your mount. One dragon breath or Fireball will kill it even if it pass the save, if you dont have the feat.

[LudicSavant]

What Cavaliers need is the Find Steed spell. It says a lot when a subclass dedicated to mounted combat is worse than a class that barely tries at all.

Even if Cavaliers got Find Steed, they wouldn't get the benefit from it that a Paladin does. Without an aura or spells to share it's not going to do that much more than a regular ol' mundane warhorse.

[Person_Man]

Even if Cavaliers got Find Steed, they wouldn't get the benefit from it that a Paladin does. Without an aura or spells to share it's not going to do that much more than a regular ol' mundane warhorse.

Maybe you could give Cavaliers Find Steed spell and Mounted Combat as a Bonus Feat at level 3 (replacing or nerfing existing abilities) and Greater Find Steed spell (from Xanthars) at level 15? But if you do that, then all of the subclass abilities should be steed/pet synergies, not Knight/aggro/control abilities (though there might be overlap).

Having said that, my personal experience is that mounted combat focused builds can be situationally very potent, but can suffer in situations where using a mount might not be practical (crowded urban areas, castles, sewers, dungeons, etc). This can be mitigated if the DM lets you play a small race riding a medium sized mount indoors, or if you can convince another player to be a druid mount, or to have an animal companion or summoned creature you can use as a mount. But even then, its usefulness can be highly DM/campaign specific.

[LudicSavant]

If the Cavalier wants to keep up with the likes of Eldritch Knight, Battle Master, Echo Knight, Psi Warrior, or Rune Knight, they've got some issues to deal with.

First, they're relatively squishy for a Fighter subclass. Their only personal defensive feature uses a Reaction to reduce the effectiveness of a single attack, only ~3/day. And if they use that defense to help any allies (which they can only do within 5 feet), then they have no personal defenses at all from their subclass.

Contrast this to the Rune Knight, Eldritch Knight, Psi Warrior, and Battle Master -- they all get significant defensive boosts from their subclass, usable more often and having greater effects.

Second, they have a slow windup. You've got low initiative, low mobility, and need to get into melee and successfully hit in order to mark something. Then, if that specific enemy successfully damaged someone other than you, on your next turn you can hit them with an above-average bonus action. By the time this happens, an enemy might have taken 3 turns already. Or might be dead or disabled.

What's more, if you get this punish damage, it's kinda just catching you up to the less-conditional offense that other subclasses would have applied earlier in the fight than you (and thus possibly prevented enemies from doing bad stuff to their allies in the first place). And they can only use that belated punish (Str Mod) times per day!

Third, they're narrow. For example, Unwavering Mark's Disadvantage won't hinder ranged attack rolls (they'd have disadvantage if you were within 5 feet anyway, unless you're expecting all the monsters to have Crossbow Expert), won't hinder spells or abilities that don't make attack rolls, won't hinder anything done against yourself. It will only inflict Disadvantage if an enemy makes a melee attack against someone who isn't you, while standing within 5 feet of you.

And of course, they have basically zilch for non-combat features. :smallfrown:

[Nagog]

Even with the Mounted Combatant feat (free or otherwise), a basic RAW mount won't survive past early Tier 1 combat. Even if they're not sucking up any attacks because they're all being redirected to the rider via Mounted Combatant, they simply don't have the Hit Points or saving throw bonuses to survive Tier 2+ AoE damage (even if halved via Mounted Combatant) or shrug off any nasty single target damage saves or save-or-suck status effects.

The best standard mount - the Warhorse - has a mere 19 HP, and has +4/+1/+1/-4/+1/-2 to their saving throws so they're not going to be making many saves besides the occasional STR...

About the only way to keep a standard mount viable is to institute some sort of homebrew mount scaling system.

As a result, despite their subclass ability encouraging mounted combat and even if they got the Mounted Combatant feat for free, barring some homebrew mechanism to scale the mount's survivability the Cavalier would still be a poor choice for a mounted PC, compared to other much more viable options like a Paladin or Bard with Find Steed/Find Greater Steed buffed with shared spells, or a Beastmaster/Drakewarden/Battle Smith riding their companion who scales with your class levels.

Plus when - not if - any of those other mount options die, they can magically be brought right back. Whereas the Cavalier would have to travel with a big herd of spare warhorses to replace the ones that get blown out from under them every single combat.

Agreed. They've got little to no support for being mounted, despite that being where the flavor of the class is supposed to come from, and don't even have a way to get a mount. The UA Knight subclass had it more of a ribbon feature than anything, and focused far more on the really poorly executed defensive stuff.


Maybe you could give Cavaliers Find Steed spell and Mounted Combat as a Bonus Feat at level 3 (replacing or nerfing existing abilities) and Greater Find Steed spell (from Xanthars) at level 15? But if you do that, then all of the subclass abilities should be steed/pet synergies, not Knight/aggro/control abilities (though there might be overlap).

Having said that, my personal experience is that mounted combat focused builds can be situationally very potent, but can suffer in situations where using a mount might not be practical (crowded urban areas, castles, sewers, dungeons, etc). This can be mitigated if the DM lets you play a small race riding a medium sized mount indoors, or if you can convince another player to be a druid mount, or to have an animal companion or summoned creature you can use as a mount. But even then, its usefulness can be highly DM/campaign specific.

Imo, they should get Find Greater Steed at something like 8th or 9th level, along the same timeline that full casters would get 4th level spells. It would give them some form of edge on a Paladin or other half caster Mounted build and some sort of incentive to play Cavalier rather than any of the other (far better) options. Also, if these are replacing the defensive features, the improved version of these features (in the Knight UA) can be their own subclass.