Fox's Cunning and Foxes.

[SangoProduction]

So, Fox's Cunning gives +4 int. Animals, including Foxes, have no more than 2 int.
What are the effects of increasing the animals' intelligence in Pathfinder? I'm pretty sure in at least 3e, they became magical animals (which... granted... makes sense, but is a bit like having Magical Humanoid be its own category for those with Mage Armor).

[Inevitability]

Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal).

Reading 1: a fox with fox's cunning would have 6 intelligence, but it's an animal so that cannot happen and the spell has no effect.

Reading 2: a fox with fox's cunning would have 6 intelligence, so it stops being an animal and starts being something else (a magical beast?) while the effect lasts

Reading 3: the above only applies to permanent-duration buffs, the fox just gets 6 intelligence for a while and can use that ogre-level intelligence for whatever it wants

I don't think the rules are fine-grained enough to specify what reading applies here.


Also, by the RAW for languages, any creature of at least 3 intelligence speaks a language, so your animal suddenly becomes capable of understanding, if not speaking, whatever the DM deems appropriate.

[Telok]

Our group once decided to upgrade the cleric's horse (was using the lesser animal companion feat). Headband of intellect + belt of dwarven kind gave it the requsite 3+ int and a read/write language in order to read a +int tome fir the permanent boost. We skipped the "is it animal or magic beast" because we burned a looted wish to make the horse half celestial.

[Ramza00]

So, Fox's Cunning gives +4 int. Animals, including Foxes, have no more than 2 int.
What are the effects of increasing the animals' intelligence in Pathfinder? I'm pretty sure in at least 3e, they became magical animals (which... granted... makes sense, but is a bit like having Magical Humanoid be its own category for those with Mage Armor).

Pathfinder they become Smart Animals, like Disney Horses. They are still very much an animal but they are better at breaking the fourth wall and having awareness* of how things work on intellectual principles (intellectual principles such as language.) Plus more skill points, tricks, etc.

https://paizo.com/community/blog/v5748dyo5lejb?Animals-and-Their-Tricks

*awareness not in a wisdom sort of way, but in more bulk appreciation kind of way and not insight. More like ChatGPT, or a crow, or a dog who pushes buttons to make sounds. It is still mimicry but not insight, like a toddler / early elementary school students with many words in their vocabulary but getting tripped up on why we use a name, why we use she, why we use her, and how all three words may refer to the same person but refer to different positions and social aspects of the person.

[Darg]

It would be so much easier if base type animals simply became magical beasts if their intelligence is increased above 2 from magical means and augmented animals still were affected by effects that target animals as a rule.

[Maat Mons]

I prefer the interpretation that gaining 3+ Int changes an animal to a different creature type. This is why you can't teach an old dog new tricks. The ability score increases for aging have turned it into a creature type that the Handle Animal skill doesn't apply to.

[noob]

It is not clear that creatures needs a type (they say monster manual monsters have a type in their description, it does not necessarily means that a creature always have a type) so you could possibly have your animals become typeless when given intelligence in a way that does not explicitly gives a new type.
This however results in creatures that are unaffected by a lot of spells so it is something you might not want.

[Tzardok]

The idea of typeless creatures creates a lot more problems than just "can't be adressed by spells". What size would the "typeless" fox's racial hit die be? What kind of BAB would such a creature have? What base saves? If a creature has no type, is it even proficient with its natural weapons? Does it lose all traits of the type it had before?
No thank you. There are no typeless creatures and the rules don't suggest that something like that is even possible.

[Inevitability]

No thank you. There are no typeless creatures and the rules don't suggest that something like that is even possible.

Consider intelligent items. The rules tell you to 'treat them as constructs', sure, but you don't actually need that line for them to be functional and sensible game objects.

More broadly, the rules for intelligent items state:


Intelligent items can actually be considered creatures because they have Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores.

And there definitely exist things that have intelligence, wisdom, and charisma scores but no listed type: consider the Cancerous Companion that cancer mages get, which has actions of its own, special abilities of its own, an intelligence score of its own, but no HD and no type (it uses its hosts 'scores' when needed, but nothing else).

I think it's pretty arguable that there exist creatures without type, though presumably none that in spite of being typeless have HD.

(hm, what'd happen if you used Inspire Greatness on a cancerous companion?)

[Jay R]

In my world, it would be an animal, with INT 6. That's an exception to the general rules for animals, that comes from a magical effect.

Note that awakened animals are still animals.

Using Fox's Cunning gives it enough INT to know a language, but doesn't teach the language magically. The fox still needs to learn it. I presume a dog with Fox's Cunning does now understand words like "Stay" and "Fetch" o a human level -- because they already learned that part of the language on a doggy level.

[SangoProduction]

Speaking of which, if a pet is given Fox's Cunning repeatedly, and trained with it, how much is it able to retain between castings, or is literally none of its heightened understanding retained?

[Darg]

In my world, it would be an animal, with INT 6. That's an exception to the general rules for animals, that comes from a magical effect.

Note that awakened animals are still animals.

Using Fox's Cunning gives it enough INT to know a language, but doesn't teach the language magically. The fox still needs to learn it. I presume a dog with Fox's Cunning does now understand words like "Stay" and "Fetch" o a human level -- because they already learned that part of the language on a doggy level.

The awaken spell specifically mentions changing the type from animal to magical beast.

[noob]

The idea of typeless creatures creates a lot more problems than just "can't be adressed by spells". What size would the "typeless" fox's racial hit die be? What kind of BAB would such a creature have? What base saves? If a creature has no type, is it even proficient with its natural weapons? Does it lose all traits of the type it had before?
No thank you. There are no typeless creatures and the rules don't suggest that something like that is even possible.

The rules does not forces creatures to only have hit dice of their own type, already available hit dices changes only when explicitly called for.
So the typeless fox would have animal hit dice and probably then would chain them with class levels.
Basically racial hit dice are classes with type requirements for progressing but they do not need you to qualify for when you want to retain them when changing type.
As for type based bonuses(such as proficiency), it would lose them because there is no written bonuses for typeless creatures.

[ShurikVch]

Note: Onyx Dog (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#onyxDog) creates a Dog with Int 8.
No, it's not a Magical Beast!
And no - not a Construct too...

[wilphe]

I prefer the interpretation that gaining 3+ Int changes an animal to a different creature type. This is why you can't teach an old dog new tricks. The ability score increases for aging have turned it into a creature type that the Handle Animal skill doesn't apply to.

Well done

+++++++++

Also if you interpret the spell as giving the fox sentience it will have a Flowers for Algernon moment, probably not when the first spell wears off but if it ever gets hit with a second it may remember what this was like before, that it only lasted a short while and be dreading it happening again.

It might try to get something done in the brief duration, it might attack whoever is tormenting it like this.

[Bohandas]

Consider intelligent items. The rules tell you to 'treat them as constructs', sure, but you don't actually need that line for them to be functional and sensible game objects.


Speaking of which, tangential qurstion, how many HD does an intelligent item have?

[ShurikVch]

Speaking of which, tangential qurstion, how many HD does an intelligent item have?
Unless some effect would explicitly add some HD - intelligent items usually have no HD: their hp and saves are dependent on their magical properties, their skill checks - on relevant ability scores (+bonus - if any), and they're usually incapable to attack on their own - thus BAB is inapplicable...

[Bohandas]

But what if they're targeted with a HD-gated spell that affects constructs

[noob]

But what if they're targeted with a HD-gated spell that affects constructs

_ like any normal missing stat?