Level 20 Wizard in... ?

[Quertus]

What settings are conducive to discussing the addition of a level 20+ Wizard?

I've seen numerous threads discussing what impact a level 20 (or level 30 or...) Wizard could have on the setting, or what the poster would do if they were given the power of a level 20+ Wizard in the setting. But I want to go meta, and discuss what settings it might be interesting to have that conversation about, and why.

Now, there's some variation in possible rules sets for such conversations. I'm not mandating any one particular rules set, merely giving a few examples to encourage posters to mention if the rules matter for whether it would be interesting to discuss. So, for example,

Here's a few examples of different kinds of rules for such a crossover:
Can the abilities of the settings cross-polinate; ie, can the Wizard pick up local abilities, or the setting gain powers as a Wizard? (HPatN20 answered "no")
Does whatever powers the Wizard's magic actually exist in the setting? (Usually, for this to be an interesting conversation, the answer has to be "yes", but early D&D through even 2e, RAW often said "no", or that other worlds could be fatal long-term)
Does the other world change in relation to the Wizard? (ie, does the Wizard only encounter level-appropriate threats; does the optimization level of the world change based on the optimization level of the Wizard, etc)
Is this "you with the powers of a level 20 Wizard", you building a level 20 Wizard specifically to go to world X, or an existing level 20+ Wizard in a "suddenly, <new world>!" scenario?
Can the Wizard get back home trivially (via "Plane Shift" or whatnot)?


This list is not exhaustive, merely illustrative.

So, here's my thoughts on whether it would be interesting to discuss a Wizard 20+ in a number of settings off the top of my head:

So, here's a few of my initial thoughts:
LotR: No. As the spiritual grandfather of D&D, LotR has to be the first setting I discuss, but, sadly, I don't see any reason a Wizard 20+ would be interesting in such a setting. Besides the overatching plot of the books / movies, there just isn't (IMO) all that much interesting to do in the setting. And their interaction with "the plot" amounts to "why are we using our legs like suckers? [Teleportation Circle]". So, yeah, kinda the epitome of "not interesting", in my book.
Star Trek: No. Despite one of my favorite crossover adventures looking like this on the surface, a D&D Wizard lacks the skills to meaningfully interact with their world, beyond (if HP are "meat points") face-tanking phasers, buffing the people who can actually make the rolls, and being sad that their spells don't work over starship ranges and without LoE. Best bet, they might be exceptionally good at boarding actions, but IMO that would get old, fast.
Star Wars: Maybe. With ship combat more often being whole fleet combat, there's actual strategic considerations involving which ship the Wizard makes his boarding action against when. Also, some forces (decidedly not the droid armies) actually having some degree of security and/or precognition, so Wizard 20+ boarding actions aren't just a guaranteed "win button" to the challenge of a single ship. And Vorpal-style weaponry certainly makes personal combat challenging, too. Still dubious whether a Wizard would have the skills to contribute meaningfully outside their magic, but Star Wars shows more potential than most space opera settings IMO.
Harry Potter: Maybe. Despite HPatN20, I feel Milo got awfully lucky not dying to all the "no save, just die" spells thrown his way. I think a Wizard 20 would need to be very clever and very lucky to survive making enemies in the Harry Potter universe while ignorant of their magic system.
MCU: Maybe. I feel most Playground Wizard 20 would roflstomp over the MCU, but at least the McGuffin has that "fatal on use" flaw to keep this from simply being "the Wizard 20 snaps their fingers and remakes the universe into whatever they want it to be" levels of uninteresting. (Or maybe that could be interesting, too?)
Marvel 616: Maybe. The comic reality, OTOH, might be just a tad too deadly for the average overconfident Wizard 20.
MtG: Maybe. The Wizard 20 wouldn't be the only "planeswalker" around, and would be encountering a huge array of both new and familiar creatures, and (potentially) beings with their own infinite combos. I just don't know enough of the MtG "fluff" to be sure this belongs in the "yes" category.
Dresdenverse: Yes. The magic is different enough to be a real challenge to understand for our Wizard 20+, and threats come in all shapes, sizes, and levels of challenge. Including understanding modern tech.
Warhammer 40k: Yes. Magic that doesn't use the Warp is a big deal. But even an epic level Wizard is unlikely to be able to "win" 40k, with threats based on galaxy-sized foes and consensus belief.
D&D: Yes. A D&D character obviously makes sense to discuss in a D&D world, but one suddenly in a world not their own? While understanding a lot of the base physics, there's still setting-specific changes, stupid house rules, and local customs and politics to consider. It's arguably a different focus from the other scenarios.


So, what do you think? What settings do you think would be good (or poor) choices for discussing an epic D&D Wizard in?

[Eldan]

The interesting addition of a wizard to Lord of the Rings is "wizard is an arrogant jerk who thinks his magic solves all problems and is immediately tempted by the ring".

Star Trek: The only interesting spell I can think of off-hand is Greater Teleport/Teleportation Circle. No range limit means interstellar. That is a huge strategic and logistical advantage in a setting where travelling between stars still takes days or more sometimes.

MtG: I'd say yes. In the fluff, the exact nature of Planeswalker magic is actually sometimes a bit vague. Post-mending walkers (the depowered ones) for the most part can't take on a wizard 20, I'd say. At least not if they don't have a lot of time to prepare, so he's a top dog on the level of the gods. Pre-mending walkers like Urza vary between "can do almost everything a Wizard 20 can do" and "godlike, no limits".

Warhammer 40k: First and I think more or less only question: does protection against D&D mind control/chaotic evil spells etc. protect against chaos corruption? Can our wizard mind blank himself? Otherwise, most wizards fall very quickly and the setting just gets a second Magnus the Red, except he has a nice interesting new magic school.

Not that non-warp magic isn't a thing in 40k. It has Enuncia and a few similar things.

[Quertus]

The interesting addition of a wizard to Lord of the Rings is "wizard is an arrogant jerk who thinks his magic solves all problems and is immediately tempted by the ring".

Right, this is a big issue in scenarios that involve the Ring. Which is part of the question: is there anything else interesting to do in the LotR universe, that doesn't involve The Plot and The One Ring?

[Eldan]

A philosophical discussion about divine providence and free will we absolutely can't have on this forum? (I.e. can the wizard actually change how the story goes in a world that has capital F Fate?)

No, probably not much else apart from that.

[RNightstalker]

Right, this is a big issue in scenarios that involve the Ring. Which is part of the question: is there anything else interesting to do in the LotR universe, that doesn't involve The Plot and The One Ring?

There are plenty of things that you can come up with. Moria was sacked by the Balrog...someone had to have taken the dwarfen treasure. With Sauruman gone, who's watchiing Isengard? With both Gandalf and Sauruman gone, who are the new gray and white wizards? How do Faramir and Eowen do restoring Rohan? With Mordor being emptied of all the bad guys, who's going to loot it? Will someone conquer Shelob's lair? Where did all the mercenaries come from? More stories there. We know about the One Ring, and we saw the elves still had their rings and we know what happened to the human ringbearers...what happened to the rings given to the dwarfs? Maybe there's a new crusade to destroy ALL the rings of power. And it could be really interesting considering Middle earth seems to be a low magic setting. And someone is going to need to help the guys that retook the Lonely Mountain spend all that gold...now that Smaug is dead, maybe another dragon smells the scent of all that gold...

[Quertus]

A philosophical discussion about divine providence and free will we absolutely can't have on this forum? (I.e. can the wizard actually change how the story goes in a world that has capital F Fate?)

No, probably not much else apart from that.

Maybe my reading comprehension is getting the better of me again, but… it sounds like you’re saying we can’t discuss Fate-based game mechanics. And… I don’t see why we can’t, at least do long as we leave the real world out of it?


Star Trek: The only interesting spell I can think of off-hand is Greater Teleport/Teleportation Circle. No range limit means interstellar. That is a huge strategic and logistical advantage in a setting where travelling between stars still takes days or more sometimes.

This is why it’s good for me to get other peoples opinions on this kind of thing: I had thought Teleport was “meh” because the Star Trek characters get it at will. I hadn’t considered its true potential.


MtG: I'd say yes. In the fluff, the exact nature of Planeswalker magic is actually sometimes a bit vague. Post-mending walkers (the depowered ones) for the most part can't take on a wizard 20, I'd say. At least not if they don't have a lot of time to prepare, so he's a top dog on the level of the gods. Pre-mending walkers like Urza vary between "can do almost everything a Wizard 20 can do" and "godlike, no limits".

Not all fights are 1-on-1 - couldn’t a Wizard 20 be beaten by numbers? By a single Hexproof Indestructible creature? By an Eldrazi? By any number of things in the setting?

And ignoring fights - what could a Wizard 20+ do in the setting? They aren’t playing Pokémon with the spells and monsters, so what’s their motivation?

(Granted, I personally like it when everyone else is playing one game and I’m playing another, so if there’sa motivation that dovetails well with the MtG mage collecting their Pokémon, that’s a selling point for me.)


Warhammer 40k: First and I think more or less only question: does protection against D&D mind control/chaotic evil spells etc. protect against chaos corruption? Can our wizard mind blank himself? Otherwise, most wizards fall very quickly and the setting just gets a second Magnus the Red, except he has a nice interesting new magic school.

A level 20+ Wizard certainly can Mindblank themselves. But, as (unlike humanity or most anything else in the setting) they’re not a creature connected to the Warp, I doubt Chaos can corrupt them in any but the most mundane of ways.

So that alone may make the 40k discussion worth having.


Not that non-warp magic isn't a thing in 40k. It has Enuncia and a few similar things.

I’m not familiar with that. Sounds like another reason it could be an interesting conversation.


Right, this is a big issue in scenarios that involve the Ring. Which is part of the question: is there anything else interesting to do in the LotR universe, that doesn't involve The Plot and The One Ring?


There are plenty of things that you can come up with. Moria was sacked by the Balrog...someone had to have taken the dwarfen treasure. With Sauruman gone, who's watchiing Isengard? With both Gandalf and Sauruman gone, who are the new gray and white wizards? How do Faramir and Eowen do restoring Rohan? With Mordor being emptied of all the bad guys, who's going to loot it? Will someone conquer Shelob's lair? Where did all the mercenaries come from? More stories there. We know about the One Ring, and we saw the elves still had their rings and we know what happened to the human ringbearers...what happened to the rings given to the dwarfs? Maybe there's a new crusade to destroy ALL the rings of power. And it could be really interesting considering Middle earth seems to be a low magic setting. And someone is going to need to help the guys that retook the Lonely Mountain spend all that gold...now that Smaug is dead, maybe another dragon smells the scent of all that gold...

And how much of that is actually interesting to a 20th level Wizard? How much is interesting for us to discuss? For which of these scenarios the answer to “what would you do as an epic Wizard in LotR?” anything other than just, “Win?” or “Whatever they want?”? And is that interesting to discuss?

[Quertus]

there anything else interesting to do in the LotR universe, that doesn't involve The Plot and The One Ring?

To explain this a bit… could an epic Wizard, 5 years before the events of The Hobbit, find the Balor, enslave it, and use it to attack Gondor? That might be interesting, but even that uses the elements that were part of the plot of the books.

Unlike, say, Forgotten Realms, the world of LotR doesn’t feel rich enough in interesting elements to create stories outside The Plot, or elements thereof. The Dragon? Last of its kind. The Balrog? Is there anything else like it? Wizards? There’s 5. In the whole world. It’s just not really a good setting for telling many stories, especially not stories where it’s interesting to discuss what a Wizard 20+ would do.

Modern Earth at least has unfamiliar technology, standing armies, telecommunication, and even nukes, let alone pollution, corruption, digital economy, and so on as elements it might be interesting for a D&D Wizard to interact with. But LotR has… orcs? Moon letters? Not nearly enough elements for the Wizard to tell their Story, whatever that might be. That’s what I mean when I say I feel LotR is not a setting that’s interesting to discuss what an epic Wizard could do in it.

[Eldan]

Maybe my reading comprehension is getting the better of me again, but… it sounds like you’re saying we can’t discuss Fate-based game mechanics. And… I don’t see why we can’t, at least do long as we leave the real world out of it?

The reason the Lord of the Rings world has Fate in that sense is because of the presence of the Christian God, which Tolkien wrote extensively about, so the discussion would immediately run afoul of religion rules.

[Eldan]

Unlike, say, Forgotten Realms, the world of LotR doesn’t feel rich enough in interesting elements to create stories outside The Plot, or elements thereof. The Dragon? Last of its kind. The Balrog? Is there anything else like it? Wizards? There’s 5. In the whole world. It’s just not really a good setting for telling many stories, especially not stories where it’s interesting to discuss what a Wizard 20+ would do.

Questionable. Magic is just considerably more subtle in Lord of the Rings. But if we're listing people with magical abilities who might be wizards in D&D terms, we have Galadriel, Elrond, all the Nazgul, probably any number of human sorcerers in Sauron's employ, whatever the Easterlings can bring to the table, and of course all the divine armies and near godlike elven might of the lands beyond the west.

[Eldan]

I’m not familiar with that. Sounds like another reason it could be an interesting conversation.


Enuncia only comes up in a small handful of novels and possibly in the tabletop RPGs. It's a magical language, a Words of Creation type deal that some cultists and inquisitors are studying. The cultists were using brute force to study it, using hundreds of low-level bureaucrats and several decades to just get people to say nonsense syllables and then measuring if any had a magical effect before moving on to trying to combine them into words and phrases.

Observed uses: truenaming demons to control them without bargaining, forcing invisible demons to reveal themselves, healing people near death, transforming an entire city. That was all with a handful of words, they are expecting much more if they can ever form a sentence. Horribly dangerous, though, one guy tore out his throat and nearly bled to death speaking a word.

[HeraldOfExius]

To explain this a bit… could an epic Wizard, 5 years before the events of The Hobbit, find the Balor, enslave it, and use it to attack Gondor? That might be interesting, but even that uses the elements that were part of the plot of the books.

Unlike, say, Forgotten Realms, the world of LotR doesn’t feel rich enough in interesting elements to create stories outside The Plot, or elements thereof. The Dragon? Last of its kind. The Balrog? Is there anything else like it? Wizards? There’s 5. In the whole world. It’s just not really a good setting for telling many stories, especially not stories where it’s interesting to discuss what a Wizard 20+ would do.

Modern Earth at least has unfamiliar technology, standing armies, telecommunication, and even nukes, let alone pollution, corruption, digital economy, and so on as elements it might be interesting for a D&D Wizard to interact with. But LotR has… orcs? Moon letters? Not nearly enough elements for the Wizard to tell their Story, whatever that might be. That’s what I mean when I say I feel LotR is not a setting that’s interesting to discuss what an epic Wizard could do in it.

I think these issues with LotR are because it is about a fantasy world that is becoming more mundane. The elves are leaving, never to return. The ents have lost the entwives and will likely either die off or become so treelike that they might as well be trees. The dark lord and his most powerful minions are permanently destroyed. It helps create the illusion that Middle Earth could have been in our past (as is the watsonian implication) but also places it on a path towards becoming mundane.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The interesting addition of a wizard to Lord of the Rings is "wizard is an arrogant jerk who thinks his magic solves all problems and is immediately tempted by the ring"."It's a cursed ring of invisibility acting as the phylactery for a disembodied lich. Why would I want this piece of crap?" *Teleports the ring into the nearest volcano to dispose of it.*

How about Fate/Stay Night? He's basically wielding True Magic, which is rare and valuable, and he can teach it to others fairly easily, which will have every mage out there (other than Shirou, who, ironically, is the only one who should probably be trusted with that kind of magic) hunting his head.

[SangoProduction]

Right, this is a big issue in scenarios that involve the Ring. Which is part of the question: is there anything else interesting to do in the LotR universe, that doesn't involve The Plot and The One Ring?

I'm not even going to pretend to a LotR buff. Nor would I want to be with the thorough rinsing that its current owners are putting it through.

But, considering that The Ring plot, which was condensed into movie form, takes an entire trilogy to go over... that's quite a bit. And that cuts out lots of that journey itself.
There's also tons of other books in the world, still written by Tolkien. And then there's the media not written by, but inspired by him and in the same setting, like the one with mind controlling orc hordes... whose owners are being absolute douche wagons about copyrighting that damned mechanic.

I actually have this cursory knowledge of the expansiveness of Tolkien's universe, on account of a... what... 4 hour youtube video that autoplayed while I was asleep.

[AvatarVecna]

Usually those threads are dealing with a wizard 20 at least partially because a wizard 20 still hypothetically has brakes. Realistically, a wizard 20 is anywhere from "useless bumbling fool with a few interesting spell choices" to "nigh-omnipotent god". Upgrade to 21, and now suddenly even the useless bumbling fool has the potential to make a single feat choice that will allow him to reshape reality to his personal vision with basically no true limitations. If he didn't take it, but he's still otherwise optimizing his heart out, he can still run roughshod over most settings via NI loops of all important numbers. You talk about how an epic wizard wouldn't have much to do in space combat, but star trek ship phasers only have a range of 300000 km. The wizard could solve that problem with NI loops applied to CL, to get like 1 billion. Then even short range spells are looking at 500000 mil range. Of course, that's if you're using loops to cheese your way to arbitrary numbers. If you're not, the simpler answer is Time Stop, Scrying, Greater Teleport, blasting spell of your choice with Delay + whatever other metmagic you like, and then greater teleport back to your own ship. Time Stop ends, blast goes off, no more problems.

What could an epic wizard do in any of the described settings, and any other setting for that matter? Well there's other questions to be asked. Namely, how optimized of an epic wizard are we talking here - how optimized does he intend to be, and how much does the world/DM/etc shut down cheese? Are there locals that can compete with him at the high end? It gets a lot harder to dominate the Star Trek universe if the Q Collective steps in. Similar for The Ellimist (Animorphs), or The Entities (Worm), in much the same way the wizard normally has to worry about deities in D&D settings.

[Eldan]

"It's a cursed ring of invisibility acting as the phylactery for a disembodied lich. Why would I want this piece of crap?" *Teleports the ring into the nearest volcano to dispose of it.*


I mean, yeah, if the wizard doesn't bother to actually look at the ring, sure. Even casual observation should show that it's a ring of etherealness, not invisbility, and then it has a host of other powers, like improving all the wizard's magic and casting unlimited range dominate person on anyone using one of the other 20 rings. We don't know what else the ring can do, but given that Nenya can put an entire kingdom in a kind of temporal stasis and the one ring is more powerful than that...

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I mean, yeah, if the wizard doesn't bother to actually look at the ring, sure. Even casual observation should show that it's a ring of etherealness, not invisbility, and then it has a host of other powers, like improving all the wizard's magic and casting unlimited range dominate person on anyone using one of the other 20 rings. We don't know what else the ring can do, but given that Nenya can put an entire kingdom in a kind of temporal stasis and the one ring is more powerful than that...If he did look at it that closely, he'd realize it was a trap.

Of course, a permanent protection from evil would keep the ring from messing with the wearer's head (and if it's on the ring itself, anyone else's heads), so there's that. Having armies of orcs after you isn't so bad when you can fireball entire armies with a few castings, so maybe that's not too big of a deterrent, either.

Could he use the ring to control Sauron? I mean, he's in possession of a large chunk of a god's soul and power...

[liquidformat]

Really quick what does MtG stand for?

Also if you look at Star Wars and the power of jedi and the Sith they are pretty much just Psions with a smattering of some other powers here and there, a few seem to have some druid powers but for the most part you can pretty well replicate the jedi system using psions.

[Gruftzwerg]

Really quick what does MtG stand for?



Magic the Gathering (a trading card game if you shouldn't know it^^. There are also some books based on the setting).

[RNightstalker]

And ignoring fights - what could a Wizard 20+ do in the setting? They aren’t playing Pokémon with the spells and monsters, so what’s their motivation?

And how much of that is actually interesting to a 20th level Wizard? How much is interesting for us to discuss? For which of these scenarios the answer to “what would you do as an epic Wizard in LotR?” anything other than just, “Win?” or “Whatever they want?”? And is that interesting to discuss?

Different things interest different people. A Loremaster will stereotypically love to be the new white wizard with all of those papers and tomes in the catacombs of Isenguard. An evocationist will want to hit the road to find monsters to blast. Retaking the mines of Moria? If you think it's no challenge it took out the LotR equivalent of Elminster. Add to that it's basically Dragon Mountain on steroids, sign me up!



Unlike, say, Forgotten Realms, the world of LotR doesn’t feel rich enough in interesting elements to create stories outside The Plot, or elements thereof. The Dragon? Last of its kind. The Balrog? Is there anything else like it? Wizards? There’s 5. In the whole world. It’s just not really a good setting for telling many stories, especially not stories where it’s interesting to discuss what a Wizard 20+ would do.


Forgotten Realms has had hundreds of collaborators to expand Ed Greenwood's setting; LotR has not. I'd also love to see a map comparison of the two settings...with so many more territories and countries you've got more potential for story. LotR is the foundation for FR, heck D&D itself. Back in the day LotR was required reading. Now there are different types of dragons, dwarves, elves, wizards, I could go on.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Not all fights are 1-on-1 - couldn’t a Wizard 20 be beaten by numbers? By a single Hexproof Indestructible creature? By an Eldrazi? By any number of things in the setting?

And ignoring fights - what could a Wizard 20+ do in the setting? They aren’t playing Pokémon with the spells and monsters, so what’s their motivation?

(Granted, I personally like it when everyone else is playing one game and I’m playing another, so if there’sa motivation that dovetails well with the MtG mage collecting their Pokémon, that’s a selling point for me.)

Magic the Gathering is an extremely rich universe with dozens of planes, each with an intricate society, fauna and flora. What could a Wizard 20 do? Explore them all, save entire populations, rule their own plane, create their own plane, they could study the Pact of Ravnica, find Phyrexia and fight their way to the center of a planet, search for artifacts that would counter compleation, stumble upon Nicol Bolas and get mind-controlled by the elder dragon to become a villain (Nicol Bolas is known to be much more powerful than Niv-Mizzet, who is already an Ancient Red Dragon with 20th level casting as per his 5e statblock). They could join Phyrexia themselves and start dominating the multiverse, recreate planar Gates not based on Omenpaths, teach new people how to planeswalk, incur the anger of the Gatewatch for trying to rule more than one plane...... There's a LOT of things to do, and a Wizard 20 would maybe not even be in the top 10 most powerful creatures of the setting.

[Bohandas]

Star Trek: The only interesting spell I can think of off-hand is Greater Teleport/Teleportation Circle. No range limit means interstellar. That is a huge strategic and logistical advantage in a setting where travelling between stars still takes days or more sometimes.

Forget days. The Voyager took years to cross the galaxy and reaching Andromeda has been quoted as something that would take well over a century.

EDIT: That said there are teleporters in the Star Trek universe with much much longer ranges than the standard Federation teleporters. The Triskelians had an interstellar teleporter, and the Caretaker had a device that could move starships quickly across the galaxt, which is how Voyager got stuck out there in the first place


Right, this is a big issue in scenarios that involve the Ring. Which is part of the question: is there anything else interesting to do in the LotR universe, that doesn't involve The Plot and The One Ring?

There's the unresolved matter of figuring out what happened to the entwives.

Also IIRC most or all of the silmarils are missing

[Zombimode]

If you're not, the simpler answer is Time Stop, Scrying, Greater Teleport, blasting spell of your choice with Delay + whatever other metmagic you like, and then greater teleport back to your own ship. Time Stop ends, blast goes off, no more problems.

I think whether this could work of not fall under a subset of one of the rules Quertus mentioned in the OP:

"Does whatever powers the Wizard's magic actually exist in the setting? (Usually, for this to be an interesting conversation, the answer has to be "yes", but early D&D through even 2e, RAW often said "no", or that other worlds could be fatal long-term)"

Several spells in D&D rely on the general cosmology/metaphysics of a setting.
Teleportation effects in most settings use the astral plane. Block the Astral and you shut down teleportation. There is no Astral plane? Well, no teleportaion for you.
Other spells rely on the seperation of body, mind and soul.
Others again on the existance of the Ethereal Plane of the Plane of Shadows.
Others on the metaphysics of the 4 elements. Etc.

Then you have stuff like the Weave in the Forgotten Realms. No Weave? Sorry, you're just a person in a dress.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Then you have stuff like the Weave in the Forgotten Realms. No Weave? Sorry, you're just a person in a dress.I recall reading a passage about planar travel around FR. Only the Material Plane has the Weave, meaning that outside of it, the Weave doesn't exist. And yet, spells work just fine.

This includes going outside of FR's crystal sphere, as well.

So the Weave does very little except allow Mystra to refuse spellcasters the ability to cast (and create dead magic zones when damaged). And she almost never refuses, even against horrifically evil casters that torture and slaughter millions.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I recall reading a passage about planar travel around FR. Only the Material Plane has the Weave, meaning that outside of it, the Weave doesn't exist. And yet, spells work just fine.

This includes going outside of FR's crystal sphere, as well.

So the Weave does very little except allow Mystra to refuse spellcasters the ability to cast (and create dead magic zones when damaged). And she almost never refuses, even against horrifically evil casters that torture and slaughter millions.

Do you have a quote for that? It seems to me that the raw magic, unfiltered by the Weave, cannot be used to cast spells, hence the existence of dead magic zones, which are zones in which the Weave is broken. The whole point of the Rite of Unwinding was to deactivate the Weave. It didn't allow spellcasters to access unbound magic, it just removed their ability to cast spells.

Perhaps even more importantly, if there was no Weave in other planes, spellcasters could cast epic spells there unrestrained. The fact that we can't means that Mystra has an influence there, hence that there is the Weave.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I don't recall exactly where I read it (and I don't plan on digging through ALL of my sourcebooks -- that way lies madness), but on Ed Greenwood's Twitter, someone asked a similar question, and Ed didn't dispute it: https://www.sageadvice.eu/why-are-mages-in-fr-unable-to-cast-magic-in-places-within-realmspace-where-the-weave-is-damaged-but-are-able-to-still-do-so-in-the-outer-planes-where-mystra-doesnt-reach-at-all/

Also: https://www.sageadvice.eu/is-mystra-the-goddess-of-the-weave-of-the-whole-multiverse-or-she-is-just-the-weavemaster-of-the-forgotten-realms//

And: https://www.sageadvice.eu/how-many-different-planes-of-existence-does-the-weave-exist-as-a-part-of/

So The Weave doesn't exist past Toril, except for places where The Chosen etc do, and spellcasters can use magic in those places just fine, as they aren't dead magic planes.

Plus, magic can still be used in areas where the Weave has been destroyed -- just not Mystra's magic. Psionics work more or less fine, and Shar's Shadow Weave magic works fine, as well, since they aren't Weave-dependent.

[Eldan]

Also IIRC most or all of the silmarils are missing

They are distributed among the elements, more or less. One drowned in the deepest ocean, one fell in a fiery chasm in the Earth and one is among the stars.

[Tzardok]

Do you have a quote for that? It seems to me that the raw magic, unfiltered by the Weave, cannot be used to cast spells, hence the existence of dead magic zones, which are zones in which the Weave is broken. The whole point of the Rite of Unwinding was to deactivate the Weave. It didn't allow spellcasters to access unbound magic, it just removed their ability to cast spells.

Perhaps even more importantly, if there was no Weave in other planes, spellcasters could cast epic spells there unrestrained. The fact that we can't means that Mystra has an influence there, hence that there is the Weave.

It's in Magic of Faerûn, page 11, under Mystra's Refusal. There it says Mystra can prevent a deity from casting magic on Fearûn, but not on any planes where the Weave doesn't exist, such as the home planes of deites. It's only mention in a sentence part, so I'm pretty sure there must be other references.

[Bohandas]

I recall reading a passage about planar travel around FR. Only the Material Plane has the Weave, meaning that outside of it, the Weave doesn't exist. And yet, spells work just fine.

This includes going outside of FR's crystal sphere, as well.

So the Weave does very little except allow Mystra to refuse spellcasters the ability to cast (and create dead magic zones when damaged). And she almost never refuses, even against horrifically evil casters that torture and slaughter millions.

I had also gotten the impression that it could support normal spells of above 9th level until Mystra turned that ability off and that mythals and mythallars were possibly intrinsically dependant on it. I also got the impression that it may be stabilizing regions that would otherwise be wild magic or dead magic zones.

So it's a little bit like cable TV; you can still get TV and internet without it, but with it you get more. Your cable modem won't work without it though; in this analogy that's casters whose training is weave based.

(The cable analogy is admittedly flawed however as the weave doesn't seem to add as much by percentages, and also I have no way of representing in this analogy that it's biggest potential benefit is for high level casters)

[HeraldOfExius]

It's in Magic of Faerûn, page 11, under Mystra's Refusal. There it says Mystra can prevent a deity from casting magic on Fearûn, but not on any planes where the Weave doesn't exist, such as the home planes of deites. It's only mention in a sentence part, so I'm pretty sure there must be other references.

Not even Faerûn is safe from exclusive contracts for proprietary hardware.

[liquidformat]

Several spells in D&D rely on the general cosmology/metaphysics of a setting.
Teleportation effects in most settings use the astral plane. Block the Astral and you shut down teleportation. There is no Astral plane? Well, no teleportaion for you.
Other spells rely on the seperation of body, mind and soul.
Others again on the existance of the Ethereal Plane of the Plane of Shadows.
Others on the metaphysics of the 4 elements. Etc.
I mean Star Trek's Q race seems to be proof there are other planes and its possible to separate the body and the soul. (If I understand them correct, not a Trek expert)

Do you have a quote for that? It seems to me that the raw magic, unfiltered by the Weave, cannot be used to cast spells, hence the existence of dead magic zones, which are zones in which the Weave is broken. The whole point of the Rite of Unwinding was to deactivate the Weave. It didn't allow spellcasters to access unbound magic, it just removed their ability to cast spells.

Perhaps even more importantly, if there was no Weave in other planes, spellcasters could cast epic spells there unrestrained. The fact that we can't means that Mystra has an influence there, hence that there is the Weave.
You should checkout Warlock in the Magus World, its a fun book that is pretty much on the premise that Mystera created the weave to protect forgotten realms from actual mages. Pretty fun book to read.

[Bohandas]

I mean Star Trek's Q race seems to be proof there are other planes and its possible to separate the body and the soul. (If I understand them correct, not a Trek expert)

IIRC There were also several stories that resolved around having to find somebody's soul, most notably The Search for Spock and Lonely Among Us

[Quertus]

Ok, I take it back. Talk of souls has made me realize my error. While a level 20+ Wizard might not be interesting on your average Star Trek episode / adventure, said BBEG (or whatever) would love that, with the right setup and the flip of a transporter switch, there are now 2 level 20+ Wizards. Wash, rinse, repeat.

And, via certain Gamist mechanics, their “+6 stat boost” items are worth their weight in gold-pressed latinum to the natives, making both sides profit immensely from their interactions. So I can see meaningful interactions between the systems.

[liquidformat]

What about the redheaded step child of the star series, Stargate? I think a wizard could be quite interesting in there. Just imagine a Goa'uld getting its slimy little snake body into a level 20 wizard.

[Quertus]

What about the redheaded step child of the star series, Stargate? I think a wizard could be quite interesting in there. Just imagine a Goa'uld getting its slimy little snake body into a level 20 wizard.

Ah, I only have minimal familiarity with the series (having only seen the original movie and a very few completely random episodes), so I might need a little more to go on to understand - other than your proposed scenario of functionally being possessed by a native (would that even work? Do they get the skills and memories and such of their hosts?), or being able to Teleport (a small group) without needing a Star Gate, what would make a Wizard interesting in this setting?

Presumably, their ability to research new custom spells and craft items could result in “parasite detectors” preventing infiltration, but would the Wizard be more than a 1-trick pony? And what would the Wizard want from these primitive savages who require artifice in order to fly or teleport, rather than being skilled enough to be able to do so on their own?

[AvatarVecna]

Worm is potentially interesting in that the setting has two separate scales of power (superhero, and multiversal threat), and a high level Wizard (whether nigh epic or just outright epic) is at least theoretically capable of jumping between them by shifting from mid op to high op.

[Tzardok]

There is a Worm fic were Taylor triggered with the powers of a Pathfinder level 20 mythic archmage. That was a fun romp, as she tried to do street level heroics with that overpowered (and barely understood by her) power set. Link. (https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/toaru-majutsu-no-taylor-chan-a-certain-mythic-archmage-worm-pathfinder-alt-power.711844/)

[Alabenson]

An epic level wizard in Star Trek is basically a diet Q, and there are a lot of ways they could be very OP very quickly;

- As mentioned earlier, Greater Teleport / Teleportation Circle don't have range limits, allowing for travel speeds that outpace nearly anything else in the setting, certainly anything the Federation has ready access to. This completely upends many of the logistical concerns of the setting, doubly so if you throw the ability to craft portals into the mix.

- Speaking of teleporting, the ability to teleport makes a wizard incredibly lethal in ship-to-ship combat. Just teleport into the enemy engine room, cast disintegrate on a crucial piece of equipment, and teleport back to your bridge to watch the fireworks.

- Don't feel like blowing up the ship yourself? You're just one greater planar binding away from having a boarding party of outsiders who can use greater teleport at will, are likely resistant/immune to any defenses the enemy crew has, and are more than capable of wrecking obscene amounts of havoc.

- In a world without divine magic available, the ability to revive the dead via clone could upend a lot of concerns regarding key personnel. Depending on how readily replicator technology can produce material components, you might never have a redshirt casualty again.

- Divination magic alone means you can find anyone and figure out anything. This by itself would have essentially solved quite a few Trek plots.

[liquidformat]

Ah, I only have minimal familiarity with the series (having only seen the original movie and a very few completely random episodes), so I might need a little more to go on to understand - other than your proposed scenario of functionally being possessed by a native (would that even work? Do they get the skills and memories and such of their hosts?), or being able to Teleport (a small group) without needing a Star Gate, what would make a Wizard interesting in this setting?

Presumably, their ability to research new custom spells and craft items could result in “parasite detectors” preventing infiltration, but would the Wizard be more than a 1-trick pony? And what would the Wizard want from these primitive savages who require artifice in order to fly or teleport, rather than being skilled enough to be able to do so on their own?

So the Goa'uld can either go in through your mouth or anywhere on your neck (they normally like the back of the neck so they don't get a mental image of themselves the moment they brain jack you.) then they wrap around your spinal cord and dig into your brain. They take full control of you have access to all powers you have and all memories and information you have.

Besides them the other main races are the Asgard who are an advanced alien race that look like the classical little gray aliens and reproduce through cloning. The Nox they are the Druids of the stargate universe with very advanced tech but prefer to live with nature. The Furlings who besides being name dropped and presumably being a race of furies are never further mentioned in the series.

The Ancients which have achieved ascension and live on a higher spiritual plane from the normal world and seem to have god like powers. Some of them just try and keep out of the goings on of mortals while others have styled themselves as gods. Standard human races populate most of the universe and are the descendants of the Ancients.

The replicators a race of constructs that go around replicating themselves out of anything metal, are very hard to destroy, and later on attain sentience.

Finally the Wraith a very powerful race of... space vampires more or less.

And all of that is just in a portion of the known universe.

The universe is relatively dangerous for a wizard with the ancients, Goa'uld, replicators, and wraiths around and there is a lot of interesting stuff to explore.