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Eerie
2007-12-08, 11:41 AM
I am under an impression that, since common people in D&D are level 1-5, by level 20 your are a super-hero\godlike entity.

Is it inevitable in D&D system, or is there a way to develop your characters without turning them into ultra powerful in the endgame?

DraPrime
2007-12-08, 11:46 AM
While they are incredibly powerful by the time they hit level 20, this doesn't mean there aren't people and monsters out that could kill them effortlessly. The only way to stop this comes in several ways.


Have a bunch of epic level NPCs like in Forgotten Realms
Have tons of powerful monsters
Focus on roleplaying a lot so that by the end of the campaign the players might not even have hit level 15

Eerie
2007-12-08, 11:55 AM
While they are incredibly powerful by the time they hit level 20, this doesn't mean there aren't people and monsters out that could kill them effortlessly. The only way to stop this comes in several ways.


Have a bunch of epic level NPCs like in Forgotten Realms
Have tons of powerful monsters
Focus on roleplaying a lot so that by the end of the campaign the players might not even have hit level 15


So basically, the answer is no? I mean, no direct way to make level 20 not be godlike compared to regular people.

Hmm... is it the same in D20 modern?

How about this crazy idea: what if you limit any class to 5\10 levels, after which you have to multiclass. Will such character still be epic at level 20?

loopy
2007-12-08, 12:06 PM
Yeah man, because most classes will be able to prestige out by level 5-10 anyway.

If you want to have your characters not be powerful by <insert timeframe here>, don't take them to level 20, as every CR20 in the Monster Manual is pretty much designed to be fought by moderately powerful and geared PC's (moderately powerful at level 20 is still quite a lot of damage/round).

Edit: Oh, by the way. A level 20 rogue has d6 + con x 20... avg... say 100 health.

1st level commoner? Ah... 3? 4?

Unless you want to populate your world with level 20 commoners (Fear their pitchfork skills!)

Issabella
2007-12-08, 12:08 PM
As a note, I do love higher level games. That being said I feel that wizards did and does a very poor job planning things out and play testing. The higher the level range goes the more room for error there is.

Multi classing, min-maxing begins to show up with more power, the more levels you have to play with of course. There also tend to be a sharp upturn in power between casters and melle's. Although the tome of battle narrowed that gulf a little bit.

It's not my intention to re-start any magic vs melle debates, but when you get to epic spells (a poorly done system in my opinion) the power shifts even more rapidly.

All that aside, properly done epic games are fantastic. I think it takes a great deal more effort on the GM's part. A responsible mature gaming group will also help enormously. Is the part composed of people who like roleplaying? hack and slash? power gaming? That will determine a good thrust of where the epic game goes. The one I ran, went far more into immortal politics, and multi spheric interactions. Working on more threats that can and challenge realms rather then rampaging monster X

puppyavenger
2007-12-08, 12:31 PM
Hmm... is it the same in D20 modern?

While, D20 modern is on average much more low-powered than D and D and ordinaries can be as high as level ten so probably not.

J.Gellert
2007-12-08, 12:42 PM
I am under an impression that, since common people in D&D are level 1-5, by level 20 your are a super-hero\godlike entity.

Is it inevitable in D&D system, or is there a way to develop your characters without turning them into ultra powerful in the endgame?

1. Add important NPCs at every level - that way, Gods are not level 45, they are level infinite, and the King is not level 6, he is level 19. The captain of the guard in a village might be level 8-9.

2. Add class levels to "monsters". If a typical orc has 5 levels in Barbarian, it remains a substantial enemy to much longer. Level 14 people no longer need to find "weird" enemies to fight, they can fight good old orcs with class levels.

3. Reduce magic items. A level 20 fighter without much in terms of magic gear is really not quite as godlike.

4. Related to no2, do not scale your challenges. Level 30 characters don't have to battle Gods and Titans.

For more ideas, take a look at any Anime series. When the absolute minimum for being considered "ok" is to be able to cast Fireball (Uchiha Sasuke, anyone? :smallredface: ), you know you are in a different setting than one where a single sorcerer can torch a village of fork-bearing, rag-wearing peasant halflings at level 6, and be God by level 20.

Altair_the_Vexed
2007-12-08, 12:57 PM
One need not take the game all the way to 20th level.

You can always look at winding up your story arc at about 10th, and maybe starting a new arc a little before that. Me, I've got loads of different stories running at once, often for different groups playing in the same world.

One of the things that I liked about OD&D was the focus on domain building at higher level. Attracting followers tends to mean you can start carving a kingdom out of the wilderness if you want to. Then your PCs are dealing with a larger scale of threats by default: the biggest threats to their nations.

Other ways to refocus are to get off the old Prime Material Plane, try out alternate realities (we had a sort of mirror universe in our long running campaign, where the elves had formed an oppressive [to non-elves] empire), maybe a bit of time travel... Nothing threatens characters quite like the possibility that their actions could rub out their whole future existence, regardless of the CR of the encounters they're having.

Dausuul
2007-12-08, 01:05 PM
I am under an impression that, since common people in D&D are level 1-5, by level 20 your are a super-hero\godlike entity.

Is it inevitable in D&D system, or is there a way to develop your characters without turning them into ultra powerful in the endgame?

If you play to 20, then yes, you will end up as a godlike entity next to normal people. Casters will be especially godlike, but even a fighter 20 can carve his way through hundreds of ordinary warriors, particularly if he can arrange to fight them in a place where they can't concentrate arrow fire.

If you don't want this, you might want to check out E6 (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=202109&page=1). It's a tweak to the standard system in which you level up to 6th normally, and then after that you just get a new feat every 5,000 XP (with a few extra feats included so that, for example, sorcerors can keep learning new spells, albeit none higher than 3rd level). That way you continue to advance, but you're gaining versatility rather than raw power. If 6th is too low for you, set the cap wherever you feel appropriate.

Eerie
2007-12-08, 01:20 PM
Yeah man, because most classes will be able to prestige out by level 5-10 anyway.

Nonononono, without prestige classes.

loopy
2007-12-08, 01:30 PM
Alright then:

5 Fighter
5 Barbarian
5 Rogue
5 Ranger
= level 20

Thats still a fairly strong character (enough to decimate armies of commoners, anyway), though it wouldn't make much sense from a RP point of view at all.

Slavakion
2007-12-08, 01:45 PM
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=200754

E6: The game inside D&D.

Basically, characters level up to 6 (or some other selected level) normally, and then progress only in feats. Characters grow stronger, but never quite become the demigods that high-level characters tend to be. The creator(s) predict that E6 characters will cap out around CR12 encounters.

Tengu
2007-12-08, 01:51 PM
Or you could play a non-level based roleplaying game, which generally don't have such a power creep.

Eerie
2007-12-08, 01:52 PM
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=200754

E6: The game inside D&D.

Basically, characters level up to 6 (or some other selected level) normally, and then progress only in feats. Characters grow stronger, but never quite become the demigods that high-level characters tend to be. The creator(s) predict that E6 characters will cap out around CR12 encounters.

Yes, it is a good limitation idea. However, I wonder if it hurt the gameplay diversity.

Eerie
2007-12-08, 01:56 PM
Or you could play a non-level based roleplaying game, which generally don't have such a power creep.

Sure, but this is D&D forum... :smallwink:

Closet_Skeleton
2007-12-08, 02:01 PM
Sure, but this is D&D forum... :smallwink:

No it isn't.


An all-purpose board for discussions of the d20 system and other role-playing games. If you're looking to join a game, post in the Play forum.


Or you could play a non-level based roleplaying game, which generally don't have such a power creep.

Sorry, but I don't think this is a helpful comment. My knowledge of non-level based games is admitable smaller than my d20 knowledge, but while you're correct that such games have less power creep they're often more epic than D&D. In non-level based games you often start more powerful than a first level D&D character.

Ulzgoroth
2007-12-08, 02:07 PM
Often perhaps, but certainly don't have to be. There are level-free games that support characters of the 'basic human commoner' variety.

But I'm not sure I understand the point of the question. Level 20 is not the endgame, it's just the highest level supported by the non-epic ruleset. There's no reason a game has to get there, and relatively little reason it has to stop there if it does. Unless it's a matter of granularity, what benefit would there be in powering down level 20?

random11
2007-12-08, 02:07 PM
At level 20, D&D rules make it possible for a group to kill gods during their coffee break.
This doesn't mean the game is "broken", D&D is simply designed this way.

If you want a more realistic approach, you will need a different game, house rules or to start with new characters when the campaign ends.

Ne0
2007-12-08, 02:12 PM
Gaming (d20 and General RPG)

...Anyhow...
I think most people have said it, it takes bery long to reach level 20 if you start at first level. The point is that epic levels are supposed to represent this. The power difference between casters and meleers is enormous, but even the average fighter can do things that no one could do in real life, no matter how skilled.
If you don't want a powerful party at level 20, don't reach level 20. True, there's less diversity, but diversity is just what makes the game so powerful in the end. There are so many combinations by then, there's got to come something powerful by then.

A rough idea though, if you really want to limit the power, is maybe:
- Let the players roll(add, that is) HP only every 2 levels, taking the lowest die of the 2 classes in those levels.
- Bump up the price of magic items, and just leave certain items out of the game
- Weaken or remove spells, lower the amount of spell/day for casters.

random11
2007-12-08, 02:15 PM
Sorry, but I don't think this is a helpful comment. My knowledge of non-level based games is admitable smaller than my d20 knowledge, but while you're correct that such games have less power creep they're often more epic than D&D. In non-level based games you often start more powerful than a first level D&D character.


But then they advance slower.

If I take GURPS as an example for such a game, you start more powerful then a commoner, but it takes a lot of time to totally ignore threats like a group of commoners chasing you.

Spiryt
2007-12-08, 02:18 PM
You know, Eerie I must say that I don't get what you mean.

Like other pointed out, gods are on 45 levels or so, and have divine ranks and all that stuff. So 20 level characters are in fact faaar away for being godlike (let alone Pun Pun and epic spelcasting)


I mean, no direct way to make level 20 not be godlike compared to regular people.

Yes, but this is "problem" of every system with levels. On some point you will be much more powerful than on the begining of your "road".

However, it's rather logical that really experienced and powerful (20th level )mage will be "godlike" compared to average joe. But I can't how 20th level Fighter or Barbarian would be godlike compared to commoners. If you are talking about his ability of slaughtering crowds of commoners without problem... Is it so unrealistic?

I'm pretty sure that some modern day heavyweight MMA champion could kick asses of even 10 "average joes" without so much effort. And if we add things
like superstrenght, leap attacks, divine grace,rages, damage reduction and magic swords - normal things in heroic thing like D&D - one guy slaughtering douzens of commoners isn't so ridiculous.

RandomFellow
2007-12-08, 02:27 PM
I am under an impression that, since common people in D&D are level 1-5, by level 20 your are a super-hero\godlike entity.

Is it inevitable in D&D system, or is there a way to develop your characters without turning them into ultra powerful in the endgame?

It is inevitable for them to be super-powerful without using something like E6.

That said...you can just change the population demographics (instead of everyone being 1-5) 50% of the population is level 9-16. 25% is 1-8. 25% is 17-XX.

Makes creating opponents harder for the DM (since you've gotta apply tons of class levels) but it does make your character go from subpar to par to above par without they ever being 'super uber god-like' compared to 99% of the population until the mid 20s.

That said, if you are trying to be even vaguely realistic you suddenly have a very, very different society than you would otherwise. Teleportation Circles in place of Ships. Rings of Sustenance instead of Food. etc.

LL Love
2007-12-08, 02:33 PM
You could try restricting casting classes, play a relatively low magic setting, and use one of the old Dragon mag critical hit charts to make combat just chaotic enough to present an uncomfortable risk to your characters.

Your guys will still mow through commoners left and right most of the time, but when 1 in 20 peasant sword swings has a little chance of taking off an arm or a leg, the characters can't afford to throw their weight around quite so recklessly.

I find it makes for a pretty neat dynamic. You know that the party can go out and accomplish a lot, but if they start overstepping their bounds and playing gods, there's only so much arrowfire you can risk before someone loses an eye.

Eerie
2007-12-08, 02:40 PM
That said, if you are trying to be even vaguely realistic you suddenly have a very, very different society than you would otherwise. Teleportation Circles in place of Ships. Rings of Sustenance instead of Food. etc.

Indeed, you lose the medievalness, and instead get a "hi-tech" society of transhumans. Can be fun still...

Closet_Skeleton
2007-12-08, 02:42 PM
But then they advance slower.

If I take GURPS as an example for such a game, you start more powerful then a commoner, but it takes a lot of time to totally ignore threats like a group of commoners chasing you.

These aren't things that are explicit to level-less games. I admit I was thinking of BESM (advancement is nonexistant unless the GM makes up rules for it) and Exalted (you're supposed to be awesome), while WHFRP isn't like that at all.

Speed of advancement is something that's controlable by the DM (and not even in some obscure rule 0 way that people talk about in their mythical Shambala where a DM can make caster's balanced with pure force of encounter design) in D&D. Advancement speed is something that's tunable, not an inferent feature of game type.

The danger of commoners to powerful people in GURPS is (I believe) more due to the lethatlity of the combat system than the lack of levels. The Vitality and Wound points system from pre-Saga Edition d20 Star Wars also lets a mob of commoners kill a powerful character.

What levels do do is codify what you should be able to defeat and what shouldn't be able to defeat you. In a level based game a 1st level character should not be able to kill a 5th level character. Unless that 5th level character was asleap or drunk. However a 5th level character should be fighting CR 5 enemies if he wants a challange. The fact is that in D&D you get more powerful, but the moment you start becoming too big for your pond you get thrown into a bigger pond and start feeling small again. A level 20 character is strong, but can't kill a god by himself. In point based systems it can be harder to judge whether an opponent is a challange, will be steamrollered or result in a TPK.

Point based games are often more abusable than level based ones, allowing you to create one sided uber characters and it's harder in them to judge when more powerful abilities come available. "GM says no" can solve this here but that needs an experianced GM who knows what's broken, which the OP probably isn't if he's a D&D player.

The whole point of an advancement mechanic is that you get stronger. If you don't want people to become really strong at the end, play a game without an advancement mechanic. Otherwise just keep bringing out stronger monsters.

Leadfeathermcc
2007-12-08, 02:44 PM
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=200754

E6: The game inside D&D.

Basically, characters level up to 6 (or some other selected level) normally, and then progress only in feats. Characters grow stronger, but never quite become the demigods that high-level characters tend to be. The creator(s) predict that E6 characters will cap out around CR12 encounters.

Darn, beat me to it. E6 is the way to go.

Animefunkmaster
2007-12-08, 02:49 PM
3. Reduce magic items. A level 20 fighter without much in terms of magic gear is really not quite as godlike.


This just makes casters all the more powerful. Non casters require more magical gear than non casters.

RandomFellow
2007-12-08, 03:14 PM
Indeed, you lose the medievalness, and instead get a "hi-tech" society of transhumans. Can be fun still...

Oh it is, I just wanted to make the consequences of such a shift clear. =)

Yahzi
2007-12-08, 03:16 PM
I think most people have said it, it takes bery long to reach level 20 if you start at first level.
13 encounters per level / 4 encounters per day x 20 levels = 80 days.

That's 3 months from 1st to 20th.

How long does it take a master smith to make a Masterwork longsword?

With +10 Craft skill, the smith can take 10 and roll a 20 every week. Multiplied by the DC of 20, that's 400 sp (or 40 gp) a week of progress. A MW Longsword costs 315 gp, so it takes 8 weeks to make one. That's 2 months.

In other words, if you order a MW sword at level 1, you'll be 13th level by the time it's finished.

The problem with D&D is that it doesn't take very long to reach epic levels. By the rules, if your players have the kind of constant action adventurers normally crave, they can start adventuring when school lets out and be epic before the summer's over...

Lady Tialait
2007-12-08, 03:17 PM
I find my experiences with Epic charitors. to be funny to say the least. Peaple who get to that level...(level 34 in my players case) tend to get a big head..so i had to deflate it...anyone is scared of the boogie men of the world. it really doesn't matter who you are. They upset the balance in Oerth..on the side of good..sitting pretty thinking they had all evil gone..so good ol' Mordy teamed up with Asmodie....and we get...scared charitors...yes i know that is a bully tactic..but i'd been doing such things to them sense level 1 (to a lesser extent)

Ulzgoroth
2007-12-08, 03:43 PM
The problem with D&D is that it doesn't take very long to reach epic levels. By the rules, if your players have the kind of constant action adventurers normally crave, they can start adventuring when school lets out and be epic before the summer's over...
Uh, do your wizards not only not scribe scrolls, but not ever write new spells into their spellbooks?

An exhausting (the intended effect, anyway) 4 encounters per day may be healthy in a dungeon or while otherwise in high-intensity conflict. If you get served that every time you move, it's kind of silly. And starts to feel like Final Fantasy, I would think.

EDIT:
More to the point of the thread, if you don't want them to level so fast, decrease XP awards (or move the goal-posts, if you don't want XP-consuming effects to sting more) and adjust treasure as needed to maintain WBL.

Dausuul
2007-12-08, 03:49 PM
While this is not in fact strictly a D&D forum, the OP did specify "within D&D." So, yeah, other games, while they may provide a less crazy power spread, are not really germane.


However, it's rather logical that really experienced and powerful (20th level )mage will be "godlike" compared to average joe. But I can't how 20th level Fighter or Barbarian would be godlike compared to commoners. If you are talking about his ability of slaughtering crowds of commoners without problem... Is it so unrealistic?

I'm pretty sure that some modern day heavyweight MMA champion could kick asses of even 10 "average joes" without so much effort. And if we add things
like superstrenght, leap attacks, divine grace,rages, damage reduction and magic swords - normal things in heroic thing like D&D - one guy slaughtering douzens of commoners isn't so ridiculous.

Not dozens. Thousands. Let's imagine an elite-array, core-only F20 who's built for mass combat. We won't even bother to give him magic items:

Str 20 (base 15, +5 level increases)
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 10
Cha 8

Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization (all in Spiked Chain), Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Combat Expertise, Improved Toughness, Improved Trip... (others)

Equipment: Masterwork spiked chain, masterwork full plate, various backup weapons

Hit points 174
Attacks: +23/+18/+13/+8 for 2d4+11 (maxing Combat Expertise), with 10-foot reach
AC: 24 (maxing Combat Expertise)

Drop this fighter into a combat against an army of 1st-level NPC warriors with Weapon Focus, longsword, chain mail, and large shield (AC 17, +2 to hit for 1d8 damage), and non-elite stats.

There are 17 people within the fighter's reach. Every 6 seconds, he's got better than an 80% chance to kill every one of them with Great Cleave, and he's virtually certain to take out at least the eight within his immediate reach. Meanwhile, the warriors are going to be averaging 1.89 damage a round (crits included). It will take them 92 rounds (a shade over 15 minutes) to finish him off. During that time, he will kill, on average, just about fourteen hundred.

Now, this obviously assumes that the NPCs lack ranged or reach weapons. It also assumes no grapple attempts on their part. But still... 1,400 guys, in fifteen minutes of combat. That's a bit over the top for realism, wouldn't you say? :smallbiggrin:

Lady Tialait
2007-12-08, 03:59 PM
While this is not in fact strictly a D&D forum, the OP did specify "within D&D." So, yeah, other games, while they may provide a less crazy power spread, are not really germane.

no fair giving me the jibblies...i just had a image in my head of epic Rifts...

*shiver*....eek *has jibblies*

Eerie
2007-12-08, 03:59 PM
Dausuul, now I realize Chenghiz Cohen and his Silver Horde were level 20 fighters in Interesting Times". :smallbiggrin:

Spiryt
2007-12-08, 04:07 PM
It also assumes no grapple attempts on their part. But still... 1,400 guys, in fifteen minutes of combat. That's a bit over the top for realism, wouldn't you say? :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, but he has spiked chain, so what can I say :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, yeah that's ridiculous, but D&D's 6 second round isn't very well idea, and also D&D definetly isn't very good for such huge scale battles. I don't think that similar systems would do much better.

Dausuul
2007-12-08, 04:57 PM
Yeah, but he has spiked chain, so what can I say :smallbiggrin:

Anyway, yeah that's ridiculous, but D&D's 6 second round isn't very well idea, and also D&D definetly isn't very good for such huge scale battles. I don't think that similar systems would do much better.

*shrug* I'm just making the point that high-level guys in D&D are more than merely bad-ass. They're sexy shoeless gods of war. :smallbiggrin:

And D&D is tolerable if not spectacular for large-scale battles. The reason we get such crazy numbers is that a fighter 20 isn't another soldier, even a tough soldier. He's one of those legendary heroes who counts his kills in the hundreds and thousands, like King Arthur supposedly killing 900 men at Badon Hill "with his own hand."

Although actually, now that I think about it, a barb 20 would be even more effective, thanks to their DR 5/-. The barbarian in a similar situation averages over seven thousand kills. Even if you take away the spiked chain cheese and give him a regular greataxe instead, he can do almost 3,800.

(What I haven't yet figured out is how to deal with the situation where the enemy warriors all have bows and shoot at you, relying on natural 20s and the law of averages to pound you down in a few rounds... you could invoke realism and argue that there's no way the archers past the first few ranks could even see you, but invoking realism when you're one guy taking on thousands is a touch hypocritical.)

random11
2007-12-08, 05:15 PM
These aren't things that are explicit to level-less games. I admit I was thinking of BESM (advancement is nonexistant unless the GM makes up rules for it) and Exalted (you're supposed to be awesome), while WHFRP isn't like that at all.

I agree.



Speed of advancement is something that's controlable by the DM (and not even in some obscure rule 0 way that people talk about in their mythical Shambala where a DM can make caster's balanced with pure force of encounter design) in D&D. Advancement speed is something that's tunable, not an inferent feature of game type.


Yes and no.
You can control the speed of gaining XP (or points), but you have no control of how leveling up effects the game.
Eventually, when a character levels up, he becomes more powerful. And these jumps are much faster in D&D and other epic games than it is in GURPS or other realistic games.



The danger of commoners to powerful people in GURPS is (I believe) more due to the lethatlity of the combat system than the lack of levels. The Vitality and Wound points system from pre-Saga Edition d20 Star Wars also lets a mob of commoners kill a powerful character.


The major difference is the hit points.
in both rules, with levels there are less chances you get hit. But in GURPS the number of hits your body can survives remains more or less the same, while in D&D there are major jumps.



What levels do do is codify what you should be able to defeat and what shouldn't be able to defeat you. In a level based game a 1st level character should not be able to kill a 5th level character. Unless that 5th level character was asleap or drunk. However a 5th level character should be fighting CR 5 enemies if he wants a challange. The fact is that in D&D you get more powerful, but the moment you start becoming too big for your pond you get thrown into a bigger pond and start feeling small again. A level 20 character is strong, but can't kill a god by himself. In point based systems it can be harder to judge whether an opponent is a challange, will be steamrollered or result in a TPK.


This is the problem I see with the D&D rules.
When a group levels up, I need to increase the challenge and the strength of the monsters. So suddenly, a forest that contains only goblins will contain griffins or dragons, and demons will just fall of the sky. Where were they 2 years ago?

It's not that an epic game is broken, I just prefer a more realistic approach.
Even on higher levels, heroes can easily overcome enemies they fought on the first levels, but they still can't be treated as mere annoyance when your HP are limited.



Point based games are often more abusable than level based ones, allowing you to create one sided uber characters and it's harder in them to judge when more powerful abilities come available. "GM says no" can solve this here but that needs an experianced GM who knows what's broken, which the OP probably isn't if he's a D&D player.

The whole point of an advancement mechanic is that you get stronger. If you don't want people to become really strong at the end, play a game without an advancement mechanic. Otherwise just keep bringing out stronger monsters.

It always depends on the DM.
The DM needs to do two things:
1) Decide which advantages and skills can be learned and which are off limits.
Notice that's it's not much different then deciding which classes or prestige classes can be included in the campaign.

2) Decide what the points can be used on.
In this thing, I prefer point based system. After all, it doesn't make much sense if you will improve your pickpocketing skill in a cave when all you did was kill stuff.


The advantage is not that great to eliminate the option for class based systems, but they allow me the type flexibility I prefer.

Draz74
2007-12-08, 05:24 PM
(What I haven't yet figured out is how to deal with the situation where the enemy warriors all have bows and shoot at you, relying on natural 20s and the law of averages to pound you down in a few rounds... you could invoke realism and argue that there's no way the archers past the first few ranks could even see you, but invoking realism when you're one guy taking on thousands is a touch hypocritical.)

760000 gp-worth of magic items, that's how you counter it.

At high levels, a Fighter or Barbarian's gear is more powerful than he is, assuming WBL.

Dausuul
2007-12-08, 06:04 PM
760000 gp-worth of magic items, that's how you counter it.

At high levels, a Fighter or Barbarian's gear is more powerful than he is, assuming WBL.

You're probably right... although I'm not actually sure offhand what magic items you'd use. If we're assuming at least 1,200 archers, that means every round you're taking an average of 57 regular hits and 3 crits. And arrows have that x3 crit going on. So even if you had DR 10 versus arrows, you'd still be taking about 11.73 damage a round from the crits.

Still, I'm sure there's something in the MIC that would do it.

(Edit: Got it. Get a medallion of aerial defense [MIC 195], armor with the heavy fortification property, and wings of flying. Then levitate about a foot above the ground. You have DR 10 versus ranged attacks and you're immune to crits, so they can't hurt you with arrows. Then get a vampiric weapon [MIC 45], and you'll heal melee damage faster than the enemy swordsmen can dish it out. You can now kill 1st-level warriors until gambler's ruin gets you, and by the time that happens you'll likely have slaughtered hundreds of thousands of them. Or, if you have no sense of style, you can just grab a thrown weapon with the returning property, and hover above them raining death forever.)


This is the problem I see with the D&D rules.
When a group levels up, I need to increase the challenge and the strength of the monsters. So suddenly, a forest that contains only goblins will contain griffins or dragons, and demons will just fall of the sky. Where were they 2 years ago?

Yeah, that's a tricky one. At the worst extreme, you get situations such as you find in the typical computer RPG, where opponents just scale regardless of sense. I was playing NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer recently and nearly threw the game across the room when my 19th-level party nearly died in a frickin' bar brawl... because, for some reason, we just happened to pick a fight in the one bar where a dozen 15th-level fighter/rogues were drinking. (Of course, NWN2 is set in the Forgotten Realms, so I guess I should be grateful there wasn't an epic-level barkeep.)

There are a couple of ways to address the problem. The simplest is just to move the players on to new places. The forest full of goblins is still only full of goblins, but your current quest requires you to head off to the Nine Hells and break into Dispater's fortress, where it's quite reasonable to have a couple dozen pit fiends hanging around. The main drawback to this solution is that the players never get to put down roots, and the game feels like a treadmill; only quantity is changing, not quality.

A better solution IMO is to have the nature of the game itself change as you level up. At the beginning, the PCs stick close to home, investigate small dungeons and clean out goblins and the like, and don't venture out into the big bad wilderness. Once they've gotten their feet under them, they can go wandering in the wilds away from civilization where the nasty stuff lives. Eventually they'll get strong enough that they no longer have to worry about the "ambient threat level" of their environment, and now they're taking on missions targeting specific powerful foes. Eventually, their growing fame provokes people to start targeting them. At the top levels, they're no longer dungeon-crawling at all but influencing the fate of nations, and battles against foes of similar power are rare and earth-shattering events.

Of course, this would require handing out a lot more story awards at high levels.

GoC
2007-12-08, 11:27 PM
1. Add important NPCs at every level - that way, Gods are not level 45, they are level infinite, and the King is not level 6, he is level 19. The captain of the guard in a village might be level 8-9.

Do this and you'll have a very hard time explaining why the setting still medieval and not something from Tippy's nightmares.

To the OP: Why don't you just double the xp cost of going up a level?

Closet_Skeleton
2007-12-09, 10:12 AM
Eventually, when a character levels up, he becomes more powerful. And these jumps are much faster in D&D and other epic games than it is in GURPS or other realistic games.

You mean the jumps are bigger, not faster.