Considering removing At-Will abilities. Vrock encounter example. What am I breaking?

[arkieNork]

The core question is at the very end of the post.

Campaign style, summary of our session 0 and rules, because, as far as I know, this style is a abnormal in modern campaigns:
West-marches style, grind house difficulty, rely on dice as much as possible, try to string together existing printed modules and campaigns to take pressure of DM from coming up with everything from scratch and also to avoid DM entanglement too much so that we can easier switch DMs if there is burnout. On death each player restarts from level one.There is a weak re-incarnation mechanic that allows PCs to accumulate random benefits from their past incarnations across 'lifetimes' which is the real measure of character progress.

A big part of the initial promise is that I would strive playing my monsters as reasonably cunning and lethal and this would be part of the difficulty and that we would all pay attention to survival elements wherever they might apply. We are tracking encumbrance, rations, passage of time very carefully. It is the expectation and has been done in the past that monsters would track and stalk the party if able and pick the best time and method to attack. A significant part of how I did world building and developed previous monsters as a challenge for humanoid settlements and the party both is skirmish tactics and using supernatural advantages to wear down the local militias and the players too.

As a DM I am expected to make all this work to make it interesting and gritty. At lower levels I think I managed it fine, back when players were dealing with goblins, bugbears, araneas and worgs.

Current dilemma intro:
I decided to tie in the Slumbering Tsar by Frog God Games into our campaign. Players are currently meandering around a wasteland which is an open-exploration with many potentially lethal encounters. They have decided to systematically scout and clear a certain area on the map in preparation for trying their own skirmish campaign against a guardian non-flying dragon. They expect that they might need to flee, or possibly kite it and the idea is to reduce chances of potential interference from other hostiles in the area and also to get to know the area well.

So they gradually coming up on a set module encounter (quotation from the book):

"Lying on the ground 250 feet in front of the party is a wounded dire wolf. Its fur is blood covered and marked by great slashes. Unless the party has magical means of sight, they will have to get within 50 feet of the wolf to have a clear view of it. It wandered down from the northern hills and was separated from its pack before falling prey to some of the Desolation’s own predators. It is incapable of attacking and will die in a
few hours if not tended.

Creatures: The true threats in this area are the vultures, for they are actually 3 vrock demons from the city of Tsar. It was they who actually attacked the wolf and are now cruelly waiting for it to die of its wounds. They fly with their arms and legs tucked up against their body 500 feet in the air. Their body positions, in combination with a simple optical illusion, give them the appearance of normal vultures flying at a lower altitude. However, a successful DC 25 Knowledge (nature) check notices that they aren’t, in fact, vultures or any ordinary type of bird. If that observation is successful, then a DC 20 Knowledge (planes) recognizes them for the demons they are.

Tactics: If the players converge to examine the wounded dire wolf, the vrocks, sensing an opportunity for more fun and mayhem, begin to slowly descend towards the party hoping to avoid notice. Unless someone is actively watching the vrocks, this subtle lowering is not noticed without a DC 30 Perception check (check each round). When the vrocks have reached an altitude of 160 feet they attempt to summon dretches, which then rain down on the party below. The dretches are unlikely to survive the fall, but these malicious entities do attempt to cause as much harm as possible as they die. Allow each dretch to make a single ranged touch attack at a –4 penalty. Success means they have struck a character with their bulk dealing 4d6 points of bludgeoning damage. They ignore the dire wolf in favor of more lively targets. The vrocks follow this by swooping in to attack. If the party does not approach the wolf, the vrocks continue their circles for now but keep on eye on which direction the party travels. They then attempt to follow the party and attack at night after they have camped. Determine if the vrocks are successful in following the party based on how far the party traveled and what precautions they may have taken to prevent discovery of their camp (a campfire is a dead giveaway, though)."

The PC party right now consists of a level 11 Cleric, a level 6 Fighter and a level 7 Monk. Because they are gearing up to take on a dragon, they have also magically compelled a hill giant as their taxi (he drags them around on a chariot). They are also toying with the idea of raising the corpse of another dragon as a bloody skeleton but given the way their downtime rolls are going in acquiring the onyx for Animate Dead I don't think they will get to do that before their exploration leads them to the vrock encounter.

Problem At Hand:
The encounter is set in a place called the Dead Fields - 120 square miles of hard packed desert wasteland that used to be one giant battlefield of decades long war centuries ago. The area is specifically noted for being open ground with no real cover and sufficiently even and hard packed that it was perfectly suitable for use of heavy war machines and golems. For reference there is a 25 ton medieval, animated tank waiting to be discovered about 30 miles from the vrocks which is noted as being particularly suited to the area because in this flat and open terrain its very likely to be able to run down anything it spots.

The party's only caster is so far not in the habit of tailoring his spells against airborne enemies. They actually have spent some of their gold on Lesser Planar Ally to scout out the wasteland and they do know that Vrocks are a possible enemy that roams around here but a rare one.

Vrocks have At-Will Telekinesis. The way I am looking at this fight is that if I am to play them according to the norms of the campaign as I have played previous monsters, the Vrocks should do the smart thing as soon as they encounter any notable resistance from the party - go back up in the air, than stay at 500+ feet and just beat the crap out of the party with that one at-will ability. 880 ft casting range for a Vrock, they can just chuck up to 300 pound weight toward any target they see, endlessly. I see no plausible way where the party doesn't just get pummeled to death with their own weapons with zero chance to fight back.

Technically an party wipe like this is allowed by our campaign rules - players get to use things like necromancy, hirelings and crafting to skew things in their favor as much as possible and the monsters are expected to likewise use all their abilities. The whole point of relying on printed adventures is to remove the burden of making things 'fair' from DM and instead put in on the players. Everyone in the group agrees that high lethality and stakes is what keeps things interesting for us.

It still doesn't sit well with me to just run this as a straight execution because the original idea was that the players are supposed to take precautions, scout, prepare and its technically on them to make sure they have a chance but against an encounter like this.

By I don't see them being able to really do anything against unlimited ultimate mobility + level 5 ver spell ability and an encounter that is practically built to remove any natural counter against that ability.

I've been trying to white-room this likely encounter - at best the Cleric can use Wall of Stone to give the party temporary cover in hopes of creating a siege situation that would allow him to maybe rest and gear up spells specifically vs fliers. Except he doesn't really have spells that could reliably take on a flier at 800ft altitude. Also there is no good way to prevent the vrocks from physically smashing that wall down and teleporting to safety if the party sallies out to try to engage them. In fact they wouldn't even have to come down - just Greater Teleport to find 50lb rock and than drop it from high above

Tl,DR:

I am considering introducing a major ruling to the campaign to change all 'At-Will' abilities to have some limit, because it seems to me that its specifically the 'At-will' part that is the cause of my issue. There would be ways to counter-play and perhaps endure vs. a limited skirmishing ability, but I just don't see a way to counter a flier with both At-Will Greater Teleport and an 800ft+ very versatile attack spell. All scenarios I am thinking of are coming down to 'hope the enemy doesn't have the free time to stick around because otherwise you just die'.

The rule I am thinking off is that all At-Will abilities will be limited to 'Equal to Creature's Caster Level' Times per day. I am wondering if this kind of major change might seriously break some monsters, classes or anything?

I think it would also help with my world building in general because I struggle to come up with reasons as to how Vrocks and creatures with other such At-Will powerful combination wouldn't just be systematically annihilating all civilization that doesn't obey their masters. There is no long-term defense against At-Will Greater Teleport, except enchantments that systematically lock down teleport magic in wide areas, which would effectively remove those abilities even more. With a daily limit one could at least argue that these creatures have to be cautious about maintaining their reserves in case they themselves are targeted.

As in, any given demon or devil wouldn't want to waste his daily teleports because for all he knows today is the day some other demon decides to hunt him or perhaps his masters have already allocated daily duties that are eating into these reserves and reasons like that.

Thoughts, opinions, something I have completely neglected to consider?

[ciopo]

My go-to reaction to long distance effect is hiding, because by-the-book the penalties on spot checks get very high, very fast.

It should nominally at least "force" the Vrock to be within range of Dismissal/Banishment, which is my go-to reaction to "anything outsider"


aside from that commentary about that specific encounter, on at-will in general... the impression I get from your description, I would feel it to be fine to be left as-is, per se I see the range as being the problem, not the at-will nature of the threat

I'll think on it more, gotta go work now!

[KillianHawkeye]

Honestly, this is just "flying enemy with a bow" but a little stronger because of magic.

I say, let this be the encounter that teaches the party to bring some ranged weapons/spells along.

[Beni-Kujaku]

It's supposed to be a CR ~12 encounter, after all. There's a good chance one vrock or the other will fail a saving throw when they first go down and get beat down while the others go back up. Vrocks are also quite slow and could be taken down before even starting their tactics. Afterwards, hiding, or throwing things at it, or enchanting someone to be able, or finding cover in a cave, or creating one cave themselves with spells, or in a forest, anything to make the vrocks go down. Alternatively, just go away.

The problem is really not the at-will thing. In fact, if three vrocks can already pull off 12 telekinesis each, that's 36 times 12d6 with the Violent thrust mode, or 36 times 20d6 with the aerial bombardment technique (though less precise). The party is dead either way.


About world-building? Well, there shouldn't be any powerful demon on the Prime Material Plane in the first place. That's why the planes are so terrifying. A demon can pop at litterally any moment and beat you up. But on the Prime? None of them have planeshift, and summoning a vrock requires a level 6 spell that either drains XP or takes days of negociation and is dangerous for the caster. In a word, yes Outsiders are incredibly powerful tools that can change the world if they're well utilized. But they're hard to utilize, and casters of more than level 11 are very uncommon. Plus, abusing Greater Teleport requires a good description of the place you're going to, which makes it less useful for acquiring McGuffins. Telekinesis is a good spell, especially on a flyer, but that's why we have casters on the humanoid side too. A big city (which is basically the only reasonable target for power-hungry casters above level 10) has clerics who can cast banishment, wizards who can cast Dimensional Anchor, or Fireball, or trebuchets dealing 7d6 points of damage.

[arkieNork]

In fact, if three vrocks can already pull off 12 telekinesis each, that's 36 times 12d6 with the Violent thrust mode, or 36 times 20d6 with the aerial bombardment technique (though less precise). The party is dead either way.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding the spell. How have you arrived at that damage potential?

[Beni-Kujaku]

Perhaps I am misunderstanding the spell. How have you arrived at that damage potential?

Three Vrocks‚ one telekinesis per CL (as the OP proposed)‚ so a total of 36 attacks. Each attack is supposedly made at the highest strength‚ that is a 300lbs rock. Since Violent Thrust deals 1d6/25lbs for dense objects (rocks)‚ that's 12d6 per attack‚ so 36x12d6 in total‚ or 1512 average damage if they all hit.

[icefractal]

That's a bit of a miscalculation - the weight limit is for the total, not each projectile. So since it scales and caps at the same rate, it's always 25 lbs / projectile.

This can still be a lot of damage with optimized weapon choice. For example, in PF1, the ideal is the Chakram, at 1d8 for 1 lb. Colossal chakrams deal 6d6 each at 16 lbs.

However, that does require carrying a bunch of gigantic metal rings around (weight-wise not a problem, but it probably spoils the "pretending to be vultures" trick), and Vrocks aren't generally mentioned as having extradimensional storage.

So it's more practical to consider arrows. If each Vrock carries a quiver of (large sized) arrows around, that's 12d6 per TK barrage, still fairly dangerous but no longer in "round 1 TPK" territory.

That said, the at-will nature and long range means it's still probably a TPK in this situation if the Vrocks are played to their full abilities. I see some responses like "go to a city and buy scrolls of Fireballs" and ... the PCs aren't going to make it to any city. It takes (at speed 30, hustling) about nine minutes to go one mile. During which time the Vrocks can keep attacking. Even if the attacks are a lot weaker than they could be (ran out of arrows, reduced to throwing random rocks from the ground), the party's still going to be picked to pieces before they get far.

Now I guess if the party is fast enough (base speed 50+), then when they're moving at full tilt the Vrocks need to spend all their time just keeping pace. Or if everyone has fast healing, they can probably survive "random rocks" indefinitely and just need to get past the initial barrage. So it's possible for some parties to escape. But if the OP's party isn't one of them, that's rather a moot point.

[tyckspoon]

If the Vrocks just want to drop stuff, they should be inaccurate enough that the party can dodge or just expect a lot of the attacks to outright miss - trying to hit a single space accurately with a rock from 800+ feet up is not easy, and unless the Vrocks are carrying sufficient ammunition already they are going to be attacking quite slowly as they will need to repeatedly warp out and back in to get new rocks.

If they're planning to use Telekinesis - Violent Thrust, then the party has a lot more options:

Alternatively, the spell energy can be spent in a single round. You can hurl one object or creature per caster level (maximum 15) that are within range and all within 10 feet of each other toward any target within 10 feet per level of all the objects

.. they don't have to get outside the reach of Telekinesis's Long range, they just have to escape 120 feet of anything dangerous the Vrocks can throw at them or find/create adequate cover from it. The Vrocks can't Violent Thrust something that the Vrocks themselves are carrying from 800+ feet up because the targets aren't close enough to them. If the Vrocks try to throw the party directly (or throw their own held weapons at them), then not only do they have to maintain line of sight and line of effect, they also have to beat the target's Will save and successfully hit their desired target, and their attack bonus for this is not amazingly high. Nor is the damage output for doing so, because they're only hitting the party for their own weapon damage and not a 20d6 boulder. Honestly 'Bunker up under wall of stone' probably does suffice to make sure the party doesn't get killed, or even just making use of effects like Obscuring Mist or Darkness to make the party difficult to target. (And probably what I'd go with, considering the Vrocks are described as just wanting to mess with victims for sadistic fun, is that they peel off and go look for something less frustrating to play with after the party comes up with some means of blocking the Vrock's attacks. And then maybe there's a return encounter later after the party has a chance to adjust their tactics and equipment to better be able to handle a long-distance challenge.)

Also want to second that it's not really the At-Will nature of the Vrock's abilities that is the problem for the party - it's that they don't have a good way to project threat over a long distance. They would have exactly the same problem with something like 'a band of raptorans bandits decide to attack you for your goods' or 'an outrider squad of your enemy on flying mounts finds you and tries to eliminate you.'

[Wintermoot]

It seems to me, if I'm understanding you correctly, you are envisioniing the Vrocks sitting 500+ feet up (within the range limit of the TK ability) and picking up 300lb rocks from the ground and hurling them at the party.

Someone else has already pointed out the reading that the limit for each individual projectile could be considered to be 25lbs instead of 300 lbs. I don't have a dog in that race.

I want to point out the description you gave of the terrain

he encounter is set in a place called the Dead Fields - 120 square miles of hard packed desert wasteland that used to be one giant battlefield of decades long war centuries ago.

Now I grew up in South Dakota and spent a LOT of time in the badlands. I live in Arizona and spent some time in the desert around me. I think both probably track as being near to what you are describing. In both cases, freestanding 35-300 lb rocks are not guaranteed to be available. Most of the large rocks are embedded into the earth and need to be dug out. I'm not sure TK gives you the power to wrench them free. They may be limited to small gravel and smaller rocks that can be blocked by several strategies (protection from normal missiles, wall of stone, etc.)



So you don't HAVE to assume that there is limitless ammo available for your proffered attack strategy.

You can also argue that the Vrocks can be both intelligent AND also stay to type. Demons often LIKE to get close and personal, to feel the combat directly. They MAY want to fly down and attack within range. They don' thave to default to your "supreme" strategy.

Lastly, if you really really are scared of the possibility, just change the encounter to one Vrock and two giant vultures under the Vrock's control. They you can engage the party directly with the giant vultures doing fly by attacks and grabbing and lifting the party up and trying to drop them, while the Vrock stays back and tries to hurl rocks around.

TBH, this encounter seems a little strong for the party you describe. So I'd lean toward changing it to the one vrock, two giant vultures myself. Then I'd have the Vrock dip down at least low enough to give the Hill Giant a change at hitting him, if the players remember he can hurl rocks himself at 120' range increments.

Does the cleric have stone shape? meld into stone? Both of those could help if they think to tip the chariot over to provide cover, then dig or sink into the earth, forcing the vrocks to drop down if they want to engage. Obscuring mist? Any kind of darkness? That's the obvious counter for ranged enemies. Gust of Wind? control winds? It's hard without knowing what he loads for the day.

[arkieNork]

Since Violent Thrust deals 1d6/25lbs for dense objects (rocks)‚ that's 12d6 per attack‚ so 36x12d6 in total.
Ah, I missed the 'one object or creature per caster level'
And of course with unlimited Greater Teleports the vrocks could deliver as many rocks as they need to the location.

However

Now I guess if the party is fast enough (base speed 50+)

Brings up a point I haven't considered either.

Because the wasteland they are exploring, called the Desolation in the adventure, is infamous for being so dangerous and because it is know that its particularly at night that its most dangerous, the party is trying to avoid camping there over night. Instead they try to return back to 'The Camp' - a small settlement on the edge of Desolation that is mostly untroubled by the denizens (because there is a disguised Lich bound there).

That Hill Giant I mentioned is specifically a Male hill giant barbarian 3 - base speed 50ft. The PCs went after him to Charm and Diplomancy him over several weeks just so he could pull a small chariots with them around. Cleric casts Easy March on him - its a spell from Dragon Magazine.

https://mlpol.net/images/src/B986225B79ABFF1178DAB394D8679387-4545793.pdf

It s possible for him to maintain a Hustle for a whole day.

So with that all in mind:

They still can't outrun Greater Teleport. So I am not sure that speed here matters in the end, against endless casts of both GT and Telekinesis. Vrocks won't be able to teleport around and gather enough boulders to deliver near the party for maximum damage potential, but they can still eventually pull the PCs out the carriage one by one and try beat them down with own weapons.

Meanwhile if the Vrocks were limited to 12 casts of each spell ability per day it would make for a greater difference with party's mobility in consideration:

If vrocks try to bring in rocks via teleport, party can try to run and that will at least start ticking down GT uses pretty fast if the Vrocks want to keep up to harass and that would soon force a choice of either letting the party get away or GT into melee range to disrupt the chariot run.

If vrocks instead try to Telekenisis them with what's at hand, that means much smaller potential damage output overall - they would have to find a bunch of objects on the party to first pull away, which would be mitigated by Will Save potential. At best it would be less than a dozen damage worthy objects. If thrown back at the party and each such throw, the PCs can try to grab the items again which would mean another TK needs to spent to wrestle it back.

Party has 11 Cure Serious Wounds potions on them too, so they may have a chance to last through such tactics of attrition enough that Vrocks run out of TK uses and have to descend to engage.

With a daily casting limit, Vrocks would be better off using Telekinesis and Greater Teleport to try to focus on disarming or stealing any held weapons than try to finish the party in melee once they are disarmed. That will likely work to overwhelm the party anyway because 36 attempts at DC 18 is quite a lot...

[Lilapop]

Minor sidenote, there's a mechanical hitch to how the encounter is described in the module. You can't summon a creature (or generally conjure an object) to appear in mid-air.

[arkieNork]

Minor sidenote, there's a mechanical hitch to how the encounter is described in the module. You can't summon a creature (or generally conjure an object) to appear in mid-air.

thank you, didn't know that. I've been letting the PCs summon fliers in mid air.

[Quertus]

Ah, I missed the 'one object or creature per caster level'
And of course with unlimited Greater Teleports the vrocks could deliver as many rocks as they need to the location.

If the Vrocks give the area an unnatural concentration of loose rocks, just make it Spot DC 5, Knowledge:Nature DC 0 to notice, "hey, it looks like someone has piled up an awful lot of rocks in this area", and Spot DC 10, Sense Motive DC 10, Spellcraft DC <Telekinesis> to realize, "Hey, it looks like these rocks are sized to (or even have already been used to) be hurled by Telekinesis".

Never mind the Spot, Knowledge: Nature, and Spellcraft checks to notice that the rocks look like they were Teleported in from very far away, and the Knowlege:Planes check to put together "telekinesis" and "teleport without error" to conclude "Vrock", making the "know what the vultures are" check automatically succeed when the party sees them circling the dire wolf.

[tyckspoon]

thank you, didn't know that. I've been letting the PCs summon fliers in mid air.

Specifically:

A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

You can arguably summon something that flies, because open air is a suitable 'supporting surface' for a flyer and it is actively supporting itself, but the 'summon something in the air in order to drop it on something' is.. well, kind of specifically what this rule is meant to bar. Too many stories of players using Summon Monster/Summon Nature's Ally to call bison or whales or what have you over the heads of opponents and arguing they should inflict a bunch of damage with the 'dropping a heavy object' rules.

[KillianHawkeye]

Yeah, there's a solid line of reasoning to allow summoning a flying creature in mid-air, but non-flying creatures absolutely not

[tyckspoon]

I think it's worth mentioning that 'harassing the party with long range Telekinesis' is probably the -kinder- approach here, as it will give the party time to consider solutions and attempt to escape the encounter.. because unless your party is far more optimized than what has been mentioned so far they stand roughly 0 chance of winning if the Vrocks actually just come down and fight them. They're undermanned, under leveled, and if they have something vaguely approaching WBL levels of equipment for each of their respective levels, undergeared to fight 3 mid-tier demons. Consider what happens if the Vrocks buff themselves with a Heroism and Mirror Image each, land, then for the first three turns one of the Vrocks uses its Stunning Screech while the other two attack somebody. At least one member of the party spends each round stunned, the other two Vrocks are tossing five attacks apiece at ~+15 to hit, there's free automatic damage coming from their Spores ability, and they've got a number of free dodges from Mirror Images, which if they start running low on they can just.. cast it again. The Cleric is the only character that has any real place in that fight, and maybe the Hill Giant if he can be convinced or compelled to fight and isn't just serving as a rickshaw puller.


.. yeah, thinking about it more unless you actually want to kill the party at this point I'd change the encounter to be like one actual Vrock and a couple of.. I dunno, Fiendish Giant Vultures or something (probably using the stats for Giant Eagles.) I don't think there's a way the party wins against 3 Vrocks, and they'll need to be lucky and inventive just to escape.


Extra Edit: Outside of this specific example, limiting 'at will' directly breaks Invocation classes (Warlocks and Dragonfire Adepts) and depending on how you might implement things could have significant effects on other classes that use at-will-but-limited abilities already, such as martial initiators (infinitely reusable abilities but have to do something to recharge/reset them before being able to use a specific one again) Binders (frequently have some minor at-will powers, and then a more major effect with a cooldown on each Vestige) or Shadowcasters (gain more uses of their abilities as they advance with some eventually becoming at-wills.)

[Quertus]

Vrocks have At-Will Telekinesis. The way I am looking at this fight is that if I am to play them according to the norms of the campaign as I have played previous monsters, the Vrocks should do the smart thing as soon as they encounter any notable resistance from the party - go back up in the air, than stay at 500+ feet and just beat the crap out of the party with that one at-will ability. 880 ft casting range for a Vrock, they can just chuck up to 300 pound weight toward any target they see, endlessly. I see no plausible way where the party doesn't just get pummeled to death with their own weapons with zero chance to fight back.


The PC party right now consists of a level 11 Cleric, a level 6 Fighter and a level 7 Monk. Because they are gearing up to take on a dragon, they have also magically compelled a hill giant as their taxi (he drags them around on a chariot). They are also toying with the idea of raising the corpse of another dragon as a bloody skeleton but given the way their downtime rolls are going in acquiring the onyx for Animate Dead I don't think they will get to do that before their exploration leads them to the vrock encounter.

Based on the Vrocks' downtime rolls, they may well only be able to find a single appropriately-sized stone to telekinteically hurl at their targets before the party encounter. Not that the Vrocks need more than 1 - it's not like the stone is a component that gets consumed in the casting or anything. Further, since the Vrocks need to see this rock from 500+ feet up, the DC to spot this rock needs to be around -100 (yes, that's negative 100).

So, when the party closes to around 500', inform them that there appears to be a 1' black gemstone, weighing around 25 lbs, covered in the wolf's blood, lying near the wolf. (Yes, for giggles, make the rock the Vrocks are using to bludgeon their prey be the Onyx that the party has been looking for - the Daemons' interference is why the town has failed to import Onyx from the kingdom's Onyx mines.)

Now, the Vrocks, as alien beings from the Abyss, don't see anything unusual about a rock covered in blood sitting in the middle of a 120 mile open field. To them, that's as suspicious as "grass". However, to the party, that should be a big red flag that something's up. Also, cause for them to make a Spellcraft DC <Telekinesis> roll to recognize why the stone is covered in the wolf's blood - quite a few such rolls once they close to within range to see all the blood splatter from the many, many telekinetic attacks it took the Vrocks to take down the wolf in the first place.

Plus, with the Onyx not being native to the area, the rolls to notice that incongruity, and to ultimately deduce the teleportation and nature of the "vultures" as Vrocks.

This makes for a much more interesting encounter, full of character and filled with memorable visuals, that makes it feel like the monsters are playing the same game as the party. It also makes for an encounter with multiple approaches and multiple objectives. Sounds much more entertaining than just "guaranteed TPK" to me.


rely on dice as much as possible, try to string together existing printed modules and campaigns to take pressure of DM from coming up with everything from scratch and also to avoid DM entanglement too much

It's fine to try to remove GM bias by running a module honest, but...



I decided to tie in the Slumbering Tsar by Frog God Games into our campaign.

That's your problem right there. You should put far more time and effort into evaluating whether any content you add would be fun for the party than you have been putting into trying to bend your world physics into a shape that will allow the content.

Also, what level is this module supposed to be for? Like, imagine if the Cleric died before the party hit this encounter, and was replaced with a 1st level Rogue. I wouldn't run that party on this module; nor, in a sandbox, would I do anything more heroic than run screaming in the opposite direction if, as that party, I encountered signs of this module.

So, what else is there for this party to do, that might be more fun and level appropriate for them?

[arkieNork]

You can arguably summon something that flies, because


Yeah, there's a solid line of reasoning to allow summoning a flying creature in mid-air, but non-flying creatures absolutely not

that does make sense to me. thanks for the tip.




(Yes, for giggles, make the rock the Vrocks are using to bludgeon their prey be the Onyx that the party has been looking for - the Daemons' interference is why the town has failed to import Onyx from the kingdom's Onyx mines.)
...
It's fine to try to remove GM bias by running a module honest, but...



That's your problem right there. You should put far more time and effort into evaluating whether any content you add would be fun for the party than you have been putting into trying to bend your world physics into a shape that will allow the content.

Also, what level is this module supposed to be for? Like, imagine if the Cleric died before the party hit this encounter, and was replaced with a 1st level Rogue. I wouldn't run that party on this module; nor, in a sandbox, would I do anything more heroic than run screaming in the opposite direction if, as that party, I encountered signs of this module.

So, what else is there for this party to do, that might be more fun and level appropriate for them?

Heh, regarding adding an onyx boulder as the method of execution - seems a bit cruel to me but poetic. The part I don't quite understand in the rest of your idea, is how does it help the party to survive the encounter if by the time they might deduce the clues they are already under attack?

about the module selection. We actually try to escape DM fiat even in that regard. I spent quite a bit of time reading through my downloaded trove and categorizing modules by approximate level + making some notes for potential tie-ins and potential quests. So when there is need to expand the campaign, I select a list of 20 modules with appropriate tie-ins and a level range and roll a d20 on it.

Slumbering Tsar Saga was chosen like that and it was chosen a 'very deadly quest'. The thing of it was that because of the way our re-incarnation mechanic works, to prevent abuse, the players have to randomly roll what their next class will be. I mean we first roll the ability scores and than the player selects 4 to 12 of the classes he thinks he can make those ability scores work with and he rolls on that. (when he dies, he rolls to keep some kind of a feature from that character from that class which sticks around for all incarnations. For example one of the guys kept paladin's immunity to disease, another one has Toughness feat from his short lived Wizard).

Anyway, because the classes are brought in at random, the players decided that they want to focus on getting a reliable source of healing because they aren't always going to have a cleric. They've tried to make a permanent deal with an archon to be an on-demand heal-bot to their mercenary guild during downtime and safe rests in return for some major heroic achievement. So I specifically rolled on a selection of the tougher adventures I found for that 'quest'. They were forewarned about it both in-game and OOC.

This Saga has a wide level range. It starts from lvl 7, but meant to go up to level 20. But even at level 7 its meant to be very deadly. The party is under leveled because they've had a couple of casualties since they got here.

Also, they are kind of screwing up in their questing. Their quest goal is in a different quadrant of the map which has lower CR encounters. They were given some clues but seem to have forgotten about them during their exploration and became fixated on the dragon which they have spotted and veered into much more dangerous part of the module. That dragon btw, is meant to gatekeep the lower level parties from going into city ruins made for levels 12+. This Vrock encounter, given how its positioned on the map, is meant to intercept parties trying to rush the adventure by going in a straight line out from the nearest settlement directly toward Tsar. That is in fact why they are about to hit it - they are trying to scout the most direct route of retreat from the gates of Tsar the dragon is guarding back to camp.

idk, technically the dangers they were forewarned about are about to play out exactly as expected due to their misplaced focus and goals. My issue with starting this thread is more a case of 'okay, well what can a party of 6 level 12 PCs do against endless telekenisis from high flying vrocks just grinding them down while out of range of most spells and abilities?'

Or to put it another way, I thought this needs to be corrected because its not just that they this group of PCs is almost certainly going to die because they walked into CR thats too high in an open world campaign, but also that to my admittedly newbie DM eyes, this encounter seemed too unfair in general, not just specifically for them.

Though based on the advice I got here, I am reconsidering removing the at-will stuff now.

Also, to answer your other question about how we handle death and lvl 1 pcs - depends on what remains of the party. We've not had to do so yet, but the plan is that if the character levels get too far apart, the higher level ones get parked for some extra long downtime activity while lower level ones go off on other adventures. When we have a stable of characters suitable to continue the higher level quest, we get back to it. In our campaign I hand out exp according to PF1 Normal table, split evenly. It catches people up quite fast. In this particular case, I've already brought up the point that the lvl 11 Cleric should be parked here in the Camp. Mind you, he is under a divine level Quest enchantment to keep going, but he can endure a few in-game months as the village idiot. They decided to keep going for now with what they have. If they stop obsessing with the dragon and focus on two other quadrants where the clues are pointing, there is a lot of level appropriate things for them there.



Extra Edit: Outside of this specific example, limiting 'at will' directly breaks Invocation classes (Warlocks and Dragonfire Adepts) and depending on how you might implement things could have significant effects on other classes that use at-will-but-limited abilities already, such as martial initiators (infinitely reusable abilities but have to do something to recharge/reset them before being able to use a specific one again) Binders (frequently have some minor at-will powers, and then a more major effect with a cooldown on each Vestige) or Shadowcasters (gain more uses of their abilities as they advance with some eventually becoming at-wills.)

Thank you. this is the kind of listing I was looking for because I am not familiar with many classes/archetypes. This is my first campaign DMing for ~3 years so I am quite inexperienced. We decided to do a mix of PF1 and 3.5 and as part of that mix I removed the PF1 endless orisons and went back to 3.5 limit on 0 level spells. That worked out great for us. Especially because of Detect Magic - it would have sucked to run those lower level adventures if PCs could have just continuously scanned everything. So with that success behind me, I looked at this encounter and thought a similar solution would fit.

[arkieNork]

Based on the Vrocks' downtime rolls, they may well only be able to find a single appropriately-sized stone to telekinteically hurl at their targets before the party encounter. Not that the Vrocks need more than 1 - it's not like the stone is a component that gets consumed in the casting or anything. Further, since the Vrocks need to see this rock from 500+ feet up, the DC to spot this rock needs to be around -100 (yes, that's negative 100).



My go-to reaction to long distance effect is hiding, because by-the-book the penalties on spot checks get very high, very fast.


So two people now brought up Spot checks here as a means of forcing the vrocks closer. I don't quite understand how this works - I thought Spot would only be relevant against a Hide check. But items, be it rocks strewn about, or a sheathed sword on a PC's belt - they aren't 'hiding' right? Or am I missing/misunderstanding some rule here?

is there an automatic need to pass a Spot check against whatever you are targeting with a spell even if its a creature or object that is not hiding?



I think it's worth mentioning that 'harassing the party with long range Telekinesis' is probably the -kinder- approach here, as it will give the party time to consider solutions and attempt to escape the encounter.. because unless your party is far more optimized than what has been mentioned so far they stand roughly 0 chance of winning if the Vrocks actually just come down and fight them.

its a level 11 cleric, lvl 7 monk, lvl 6 warrior and also a charmed hireling Hill Giant Barbarian that is a CR 10 encounter by his lonesome. Stats on that Hill Giant:
GURG (RAGING) CR 10 XP 9,600
Male hill giant barbarian 3 (Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Bestiary“Giant, Hill”)
CE Large humanoid (giant)
Init+0; Senseslow-light vision; Perception +6
AC 20, touch 7, fl at-footed 20 (+4 armor, +9 natural, –2 rage, –1 size)
hp 190 (10d8+90 plus 3d12+27 plus 3), currently 183 Fort +19; Ref +4; Will+7
Defensive Abilitiesrock catching, trap sense +1, uncanny dodge
Speed50 ft.
Melee +1 keen spiked greatclub+22/+17 (2d8+17/19–20) or 2 slams +20 (1d8+11)
Rangedjavelin +9 (1d8+11) or rock +10 (1d8+16)Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks:rage (17 rounds/day), rage power (quick reflexes), rock throwing 120 ft.
Str33, Dex10, Con28, Int6, Wis12, Cha10
Base Atk+10; CMB+22; CMD 32
Feats: Cleave, Intimidating Prowess, Martial Weapon Proficiency (greatclub), Power Attack, Step Up, Vital Strike, Weapon Focus (greatclub)
Skills: Acrobatics +4, Climb +15, Intimidate +9, Linguistics –1, Perception +6, Survival +6
Languages Common, Giant
SQ: fast movement
Gear: chain shirt, +1 keen spiked greatclub(spikes cause piercing damage as well as bludgeoning damage allowing weapon to be keen), 5 javelins

The hill giant is a bit off mentally and they only paid him to ferry them around, not to fight for them. They would need to roll a high persuasion check to get him to stick around during a deadly fight and if they survive they would have to return the decanter of endless water they took from him earlier.
I don't have a good way to estimate how fights like these would resolve in melee - in a fight I roll randomly for whom monster is targeting, weighted toward those looking vulnerable, last to hurt that monster, last to engage him and proximity. But with the giant in the picture, its a CR14 party vs CR12 encounter, so at a quick glance it looks like they have a chance if the vrocks come down.

[ciopo]

So two people now brought up Spot checks here as a means of forcing the vrocks closer. I don't quite understand how this works - I thought Spot would only be relevant against a Hide check. But items, be it rocks strewn about, or a sheathed sword on a PC's belt - they aren't 'hiding' right? Or am I missing/misunderstanding some rule here?

is there an automatic need to pass a Spot check against whatever you are targeting with a spell even if its a creature or object that is not hiding?

there is a spot penalty per distance, usually handwaved away at vision ( i.e. 60ish feet) range, the penalty is a cumulative -1 per 10ft of distance.

So, if the characters do try to hide when subjected to "attacks from an unknown source", their hide versus spot opposed roll is massively in favor of the hiding party, given that someone 500ft away operates at a -50 penalty.

I don't generally use spot against things that aren't hiding, but from 500ft in the air an human would appear to be .. roughly 1/128 the siluette, pretty easy for him to hide if they want to

[arkieNork]

there is a spot penalty per distance, usually handwaved away at vision ( i.e. 60ish feet) range, the penalty is a cumulative -1 per 10ft of distance.

So, if the characters do try to hide when subjected to "attacks from an unknown source", their hide versus spot opposed roll is massively in favor of the hiding party, given that someone 500ft away operates at a -50 penalty.

I don't generally use spot against things that aren't hiding, but from 500ft in the air an human would appear to be .. roughly 1/128 the siluette, pretty easy for him to hide if they want to

Am I correct in understanding that even at a large distance, you can't hide in plain view? They would need to have some kind of cover from above to try and make the attempt?

Or perhaps another relevant angle - at what range is it reasonable to say 'no you can't Telekenisis the sword out of that scabbard because at that range you can't make it out clearly enough to target it as a separate object'

[tyckspoon]

So two people now brought up Spot checks here as a means of forcing the vrocks closer. I don't quite understand how this works - I thought Spot would only be relevant against a Hide check. But items, be it rocks strewn about, or a sheathed sword on a PC's belt - they aren't 'hiding' right? Or am I missing/misunderstanding some rule here?

is there an automatic need to pass a Spot check against whatever you are targeting with a spell even if its a creature or object that is not hiding?

Not explicitly, but Spot is used for both 'are you able to see this specifically hidden thing' and also for general 'how well can you identify details.' In the DMG section about various terrains there is a line for 'hiding and visibility in (terrain)' that says something like 'in general, in a (forest/mountain/desert) the distance at which you can detect another creature is Xdy x 10 feet', which implies that past that distance it doesn't matter whether something is actively hiding or how good your Spot is, you can't see something - either it is assumed some terrain or geographical feature is physically blocking sight, or it's just too far away for any details. For deserts, it gives 6d6 x 20, which maxes out at 720 feet. Since we're talking about open ground here and the Hill Giant is bigger than standard I think it would be reasonable to say the Vrocks could spot and potentially target the Giant at maximum Telekinesis distance, but the smaller party members and individual objects on the party/on the ground would not be resolvable from that far away - the Vrocks would need to come closer just to see what they were doing.




its a level 11 cleric, lvl 7 monk, lvl 6 warrior and also a charmed hireling Hill Giant Barbarian that is a CR 10 encounter by his lonesome. Stats on that Hill Giant:
GURG (RAGING) CR 10 XP 9,600
Male hill giant barbarian 3 (Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Bestiary“Giant, Hill”)
CE Large humanoid (giant)
Init+0; Senseslow-light vision; Perception +6
AC 20, touch 7, fl at-footed 20 (+4 armor, +9 natural, –2 rage, –1 size)
hp 190 (10d8+90 plus 3d12+27 plus 3), currently 183 Fort +19; Ref +4; Will+7
Defensive Abilitiesrock catching, trap sense +1, uncanny dodge
Speed50 ft.
Melee +1 keen spiked greatclub+22/+17 (2d8+17/19–20) or 2 slams +20 (1d8+11)
Rangedjavelin +9 (1d8+11) or rock +10 (1d8+16)Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Special Attacks:rage (17 rounds/day), rage power (quick reflexes), rock throwing 120 ft.
Str33, Dex10, Con28, Int6, Wis12, Cha10
Base Atk+10; CMB+22; CMD 32
Feats: Cleave, Intimidating Prowess, Martial Weapon Proficiency (greatclub), Power Attack, Step Up, Vital Strike, Weapon Focus (greatclub)
Skills: Acrobatics +4, Climb +15, Intimidate +9, Linguistics –1, Perception +6, Survival +6
Languages Common, Giant
SQ: fast movement
Gear: chain shirt, +1 keen spiked greatclub(spikes cause piercing damage as well as bludgeoning damage allowing weapon to be keen), 5 javelins

The hill giant is a bit off mentally and they only paid him to ferry them around, not to fight for them. They would need to roll a high persuasion check to get him to stick around during a deadly fight and if they survive they would have to return the decanter of endless water they took from him earlier.
I don't have a good way to estimate how fights like these would resolve in melee - in a fight I roll randomly for whom monster is targeting, weighted toward those looking vulnerable, last to hurt that monster, last to engage him and proximity. But with the giant in the picture, its a CR14 party vs CR12 encounter, so at a quick glance it looks like they have a chance if the vrocks come down.

If you're significantly randomizing targeting then things get kinda messy, but it's straightforward enough to just like roughly math out one round of the party slugging it out with a Vrock and seeing who is getting unalived faster.. For example, Vrock AC is 22, and they have DR 10/Good that the party probably doesn't have a way to break (Cleric may or may not have appropriate spells to do something about this.) So big buddy here always hits his first attack, neglecting natural 1s, and has good odds of his second. He deals an average of 26 damage a hit, reduced by 10 for Vrock DR, so 16 damage per hit, 2 probable hits a round, 32 damage per full attack exchange (super over simplifying here because I'm lazy and neglecting crit hits/natural fails, low rolls on the second attack, and probably most importantly, the factor that the Vrock probably should have Mirror Image on because they cast it while descending to attack the party and a lot of those hits are going to get whiffed on images.)

The Vrock, assuming Heroism active, has 2 attacks at +17 2d6+6, one at +15 1d8+3, and 2 more +15 1d6+3 (Assuming 3.5 statblock - Pathfinder vrock is a little lower attack bonus but little higher damage because Natural Attacks work differently in Pathfinder.) So at AC 20 on big friend we can assume 3/4 of this will hit - being generous, we'll whiff one of the primary claws and a talon, which is an unusually high miss rate but again I'm lazy and not doing proper math. So we hit one claw average 13 damage, bite ~ 7, talon again ~ 7. 27 damage from the Vrock, plus spores infection for d8 (~4) on infliction and d4 per round for the next 10 rounds (~2.) Call it 30 damage per turn trying to fight one Vrock?

So yes, one on one, the Barbarian is favored here - he kills the Vrock in 3 or 4 turns while the Vrock kills him in 6 or 7 of straight damage trades, but that's with quite a few assumptions that are favorable to the Barbarian - no Mirror Image, one or more of the Vrocks doesn't try to just Telekinesis his greatclub out of his hands and yeet it a hundred feet away, the Vrock misses more of its attacks than it really should, it isn't using Power Attack to increase its damage output.. but I suspect if you do a similar rundown for the Fighter and Monk you'll find that the Vrock is heavily, heavily advantaged, especially if one of them falls victim to Stunning Screech and gets attacked while suffering the stun.

[ciopo]

The DMG has the "general viewing distance" for various kind of terrain, page 87.

What you described I would classify as desert terrain, so if we go by the DMG, view distance is 6d6*20ft, which I personally interpret as "anything farther than that has cover" rather than "anything farther than that cannot be seen"

It comes down to relative size, at a distance everything appears smaller, in this case is "as seen from above", in my mind eye anything with colours similar to the local background colors are more or less indistinguiscable from said background.

How small do you feel should a humanoid be before it is no different than background noise to the eyes of observers? Without getting to fantasy biology, if it was human observing a human, at 500ft of distance something occupying a 5ft square would appear to be.... about coin size (VERY NAPKIN 5/128). If said coin was brown on brown, is it "in plain sight?" What if it camouflaged.

Then there's illumination to shortcut it

[Quertus]

Regarding the actual question of the OP, I think it would be hilarious if, each day, beings could only attack a number of times equal to their BAB, only speak a number of times per day equal to their Charisma bonus / ranks in social skills, only chew food a number of times per day equal to their teeth, only take a number of Move actions equal to their Constitution score, etc.

That is to say that there’s an awful lot of at-will actions one often takes for granted, that might well break under this proposed rule. Or might well involve some cool world building and great memorable tactical and strategic play. Who knows.


So two people now brought up Spot checks here as a means of forcing the vrocks closer.

Nope, not my goal. Much like how the OP (Opening Post) / module list ranges at which the party can notice certain things (which is dumb, and bypasses Spot mechanics (and spyglasses, and…)), I was explaining that, if the Vrocks can see the rock from 500’ to target it with their spell, then the PCs can see the rock from 500’ to gain information about the encounter.

So my goal… was realism / verisimilitude… or perhaps the Gamist equivalent (“fairness/consistency”), but the logical effect of pursuing my goal would likely be to increase the distance at which the encounter “starts”, not force the Vrocks closer.


Heh, regarding adding an onyx boulder as the method of execution - seems a bit cruel to me but poetic.

Lol, it is a funny visual for "be careful what you Wish for". I meant it more as a way to make the rock obviously stick out to justify that minus whatever spot DC, to tie into the rest of the campaign, to explain why the gemstone merchants were having a difficult time with their Onyx shipment (some vultures stole it - maybe even add that as a rumor the players pick up), to give the party more interesting strategic decisions (do they care about the wolf? the onyx? the vultures?), and because it was funny.


The part I don't quite understand in the rest of your idea, is how does it help the party to survive the encounter if by the time they might deduce the clues they are already under attack?

Again, you’ve got it backwards - thanks to the Vrocks’ Strategy (and ignorance of the Material Plane (Unless they actually have Knowledge: Local or Knowledge: Nature, of course)), they’ve left a smoking gun that has to be visible at 500’ for the party to work with in order for their plan to work. So, at a walk rate of 30’ per round (half that if they’re foraging as they go, which seems likely given the campaign parameters), we’ve got 33 rounds from the time the party spots the Onyx before they close within 10’ of the Wolf, plus however many rounds it takes the “vultures” to descend after that (which, if they’re trying to be subtle… while being clueless about real vultures… could be anything from 1-100 rounds), between when the party starts getting additional information not included in the original module scenario and the attack.


about the module selection. We actually try to escape DM fiat even in that regard. I spent quite a bit of time reading through my downloaded trove and categorizing modules by approximate level + making some notes for potential tie-ins and potential quests. So when there is need to expand the campaign, I select a list of 20 modules with appropriate tie-ins and a level range and roll a d20 on it.

Slumbering Tsar Saga was chosen like that and it was chosen a 'very deadly quest'. The thing of it was that because of the way our re-incarnation mechanic works, to prevent abuse, the players have to randomly roll what their next class will be. I mean we first roll the ability scores and than the player selects 4 to 12 of the classes he thinks he can make those ability scores work with and he rolls on that. (when he dies, he rolls to keep some kind of a feature from that character from that class which sticks around for all incarnations. For example one of the guys kept paladin's immunity to disease, another one has Toughness feat from his short lived Wizard).

Anyway, because the classes are brought in at random, the players decided that they want to focus on getting a reliable source of healing because they aren't always going to have a cleric. They've tried to make a permanent deal with an archon to be an on-demand heal-bot to their mercenary guild during downtime and safe rests in return for some major heroic achievement. So I specifically rolled on a selection of the tougher adventures I found for that 'quest'. They were forewarned about it both in-game and OOC.

“Heroic achievement” need not be code for TPK.


5-year-old: my mommy might not always be here to give me bandaids - would you consider giving me bandaids, mister Angel sir?

Angel: sure. You just need to liberate this foreign nation from the oppressive warlord who has been… wait, I meant after years of training, not right this second!

(Sounds of gunfire in the distance, scene shifts to Angel, head bowed beside a child-sized grave.)

And this is the story of how Arkiel was demoted to Archon.

An angelic quest giver might consider being a little bit more considerate in ensuring there were no suicide-inducing miscommunications.

Also, the idea of forcing the players to “punch up” because they’re afraid their healing may be inadequate just feels punitive. You realize a Wand of Lesser Vigor and Wand of Resurgence (or an Eternal Wand thereof created by a generic Spellcaster) are within the expected wealth budget of even a 3rd level character, right? That seems a far easier solution than the “Death by Vrock to appease suicide mission Archon” plan.


This Saga has a wide level range. It starts from lvl 7, but meant to go up to level 20. But even at level 7 its meant to be very deadly. The party is under leveled because they've had a couple of casualties since they got here.

Also, they are kind of screwing up in their questing. Their quest goal is in a different quadrant of the map which has lower CR encounters. They were given some clues but seem to have forgotten about them during their exploration and became fixated on the dragon which they have spotted and veered into much more dangerous part of the module. That dragon btw, is meant to gatekeep the lower level parties from going into city ruins made for levels 12+. This Vrock encounter, given how its positioned on the map, is meant to intercept parties trying to rush the adventure by going in a straight line out from the nearest settlement directly toward Tsar. That is in fact why they are about to hit it - they are trying to scout the most direct route of retreat from the gates of Tsar the dragon is guarding back to camp.

idk, technically the dangers they were forewarned about are about to play out exactly as expected due to their misplaced focus and goals. My issue with starting this thread is more a case of 'okay, well what can a party of 6 level 12 PCs do against endless telekenisis from high flying vrocks just grinding them down while out of range of most spells and abilities?'

Or to put it another way, I thought this needs to be corrected because its not just that they this group of PCs is almost certainly going to die because they walked into CR thats too high in an open world campaign, but also that to my admittedly newbie DM eyes, this encounter seemed too unfair in general, not just specifically for them.

Again, it’s your choice whether to include a TPK-inducing scenario into the sandbox - especially a sandbox where the party can spontaneously be reset (via TPK) to level 1.

Personally, I’m all for doing so - provided you’ve handled expectations correctly, and that’s what the group finds fun. I’m all about Simulationist logic - and choosing where (/when) in the Simulation to place the party to optimize the fun the players have.

But if you know your players won’t find, “suddenly, TPK” to be fun, then don’t make it an option for such to be added to the Simulation. The dice do not absolve you from choosing to add that as a possible entry on the “what could be here” table.


Also, to answer your other question about how we handle death and lvl 1 pcs - depends on what remains of the party. We've not had to do so yet, but the plan is that if the character levels get too far apart, the higher level ones get parked for some extra long downtime activity while lower level ones go off on other adventures. When we have a stable of characters suitable to continue the higher level quest, we get back to it. In our campaign I hand out exp according to PF1 Normal table, split evenly. It catches people up quite fast. In this particular case, I've already brought up the point that the lvl 11 Cleric should be parked here in the Camp. Mind you, he is under a divine level Quest enchantment to keep going, but he can endure a few in-game months as the village idiot. They decided to keep going for now with what they have. If they stop obsessing with the dragon and focus on two other quadrants where the clues are pointing, there is a lot of level appropriate things for them there.

Sounds like the Cleric’s going to have nothing but time on their hands to hunt for Onyx / write letters to the home branch of the church to send Onyx / perform Divinations to realize that contacting Quertus and convincing them to set up a Spell Component Shop in <podunkville> would solve all their Onyx shortage issues.

That said, what does the Cleric’s player do while the Cleric’s twiddling his thumbs (or crafting Wands) for metagame reasons?

[tyckspoon]

idk, technically the dangers they were forewarned about are about to play out exactly as expected due to their misplaced focus and goals. My issue with starting this thread is more a case of 'okay, well what can a party of 6 level 12 PCs do against endless telekenisis from high flying vrocks just grinding them down while out of range of most spells and abilities?'


An actual level 12 party I'd just let run into the situation and figure it out, because by that point they should have plenty of ways to respond. Without too much thought:
Take the fight directly to them with some combination of their own flight and teleportation spells, special abilities, and magic items (and as most favored PC means of flight provide Good or Perfect manueverability and Vrocks are only Average, the PCs will actually be better at fighting in the air than the Vrocks.)
Just shoot back (being a bit specialized for this helps with Far Shot feat or Distance enchanted weapons, but even the standard range increment for a longbow can reach out and touch somebody at up to ~1000 feet if you can handle the range penalties.)
Say 'screw this' and teleport out - there's no reason they need to engage this fight (no objective and no apparent treasure to be had for it) and no way for the Vrocks to tell where they went to if they teleport outside of immediate visual range.
Shelter under any of various Wall type effects that will break line of effect to the Vrocks and are difficult to break (Wall of Iron, Wall of Force, Prismatic effects, Resilient Sphere..)
Become invisible, which the Vrocks have no way to detect, especially from far enough away that they cannot possibly beat the Spot/Listen distance penalties to try to pinpoint a square.
Use effects to try to force the Vrocks to ground - Earthbind, Downdraft, casting Telekinesis right back and grappling them with it (lower maneuverability fliers must maintain a minimum forward speed and will stall out and fall if they cannot, so anything that prevents a Vrock from moving will bring it down.)


That said, what does the Cleric’s player do while the Cleric’s twiddling his thumbs (or crafting Wands) for metagame reasons?
Plays a different character, presumably.

[arkieNork]

Okay based on the sum of advice here, it seems I've not taken into account some options, rules and considerations before jumping into 'time to change game rules' territory.

I am not quite sure how I will run this encounter if/when this happens but the following will be there based on what I've learned

- for my own conscience, I am going to drop another heavy hint to the PCs to remind them that they didn't come here to hunt dragons. Maybe this time they will take it and avoid this encounter all together.

- going to do the module suggestion, but have them summon the dretches as mounted on the vrocks. As in, the flying vrocks will be the surface on which its summoned. It will mean that one will need to summon and carry, while the other vrocks throw the dretches and than change it up. That should give the PCs at least 4 turns under a weak barrage of dretches to come up with a plan and act on it. That's a lot of time to buff and think. Module says the vrocks dive to fight in melee after that, so I will just play it as written and keep my Telekenisis options for the rare vrocks on the random encounter tables.

- If I have to run a random encounter with a vrock later, I have reviewed summon monster lists and found that, assuming the Cleric's standard spell load out, he is going to have 2 chances to summon a Large Air Elemental from PF1 SM_V list. I need to read up on how air combat and whirlwind (SU) works.

- going to make a soft rule that if you want to target a specific object or person with a spell, you should be able to make a Spot check on it. Soft for now because it makes sense for me for Telekenisis but I can't remember any other long range spells that can be targeted at an object. If a Vrock want to target party's equipment - that will be small objects, and assuming taking 10 for brevity. That's 290ft to make out the object.



...And this is the story of how Arkiel was demoted to Archon.


coincidentally enough, I specifically dug out the dumbest archon I could for this idea. Reached all the way into the dark pits of trollish erotica themed 3pp book and took a stat block for a 6hd 'Theliel' with gimped Wisdom. her backstory is that she is a useless cheerleader type of angel with a long history of screwing up the simplest of tasks. I made her that way specifically to try and limit any attempts of using her for her skills, knowledge or as anything other than some daily healing and one cast of Restoration. She is capable of nothing, knows nothing, understands less and she is available to teleport in for daily heals because no one in the celestial realms want to risk tasking her with anything. So her getting some mortals killed through an ill judged task would be entirely in-character.

ps. not handing them any onyx for free. Funny as it would be to try and bludgeon the cleric with the ingredients he is trying to get shipped to him via caravan, I am dreading how to handle them having a powerful undead minion. They will get it anyway, but it will be a at least a few more play sessions yet and maybe that Cleric will get dead before than.

They want a Bloody Skeleton of an Old Black Dragon - that thing is going to be practically immortal in this area because its all just undead and demons and nothing that will deliver positive energy damage to actually kill it. I am still trying to come up with some fair dice-based system to let them power-trip with it around but eventually get rid of it but the module. There is a lich encounter on the map with Command Undead - my only hope and option so far.

If they live through the encounter, they get a Dire Wolf animal companion.

"Development:If the dire wolf is cured and offered food and water it will bond with any character doing so and can become a faithful animal companion. Even if its presence is not wanted, if healthy it will attempt to follow its benefactor at a distance only stepping in if the benefactor is badly injured or incapacitated"

[Quertus]

coincidentally enough, I specifically dug out the dumbest archon I could for this idea. Reached all the way into the dark pits of trollish erotica themed 3pp book and took a stat block for a 6hd 'Theliel' with gimped Wisdom. her backstory is that she is a useless cheerleader type of angel with a long history of screwing up the simplest of tasks. I made her that way specifically to try and limit any attempts of using her for her skills, knowledge or as anything other than some daily healing and one cast of Restoration. She is capable of nothing, knows nothing, understands less and she is available to teleport in for daily heals because no one in the celestial realms want to risk tasking her with anything. So her getting some mortals killed through an ill judged task would be entirely in-character.

ps. not handing them any onyx for free. Funny as it would be to try and bludgeon the cleric with the ingredients he is trying to get shipped to him via caravan, I am dreading how to handle them having a powerful undead minion. They will get it anyway, but it will be a at least a few more play sessions yet and maybe that Cleric will get dead before than.

They want a Bloody Skeleton of an Old Black Dragon - that thing is going to be practically immortal in this area because its all just undead and demons and nothing that will deliver positive energy damage to actually kill it. I am still trying to come up with some fair dice-based system to let them power-trip with it around but eventually get rid of it but the module. There is a lich encounter on the map with Command Undead - my only hope and option so far.

If they live through the encounter, they get a Dire Wolf animal companion.

"Development:If the dire wolf is cured and offered food and water it will bond with any character doing so and can become a faithful animal companion. Even if its presence is not wanted, if healthy it will attempt to follow its benefactor at a distance only stepping in if the benefactor is badly injured or incapacitated"

I figured. I just thought it was likely the party would kill and eat the dire wolf, or skin it and try to sell its pelt, or both. Figured the Onyx was a good substitute reward for the encounter, one they might actually care about. Especially if the Theliel of Lesser Wisdom sours them on having living(ish) allies.

Also, given that you're staring down the barrel of a TPK, you might want to consider not worrying so much about, you know, letting the party have the power (laughs uncontrollably for a bit) of an undead minion. Granted, I'm not familiar with this keyword "Bloody", so maybe it's more impressive than it sounds - how many Vrok would be a fair fight against it?

[arkieNork]

...
Also, given that you're staring down the barrel of a TPK, you might want to consider not worrying so much about, you know, letting the party have the power (laughs uncontrollably for a bit) of an undead minion. Granted, I'm not familiar with this keyword "Bloody", so maybe it's more impressive than it sounds - how many Vrok would be a fair fight against it?

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/skeleton-medium/skeleton-bloody/
>Deathless (Su)
"A bloody skeleton is destroyed when reduced to 0 hit points, but it returns to unlife 1 hour later at 1 hit point, allowing its fast healing thereafter to resume healing it. A bloody skeleton can be permanently destroyed if it is destroyed by positive energy, if it is reduced to 0 hit points in the area of a bless or hallow spell, or if its remains are sprinkled with a vial of holy water."

I did the math on the stats of its template if they raise it
>Melee bite +20 (2d8+9), 2 claws +20 (2d6+9), 2 wings +15 (1d8+9), tail +15 (2d6+9)
AC 12, touch 9, flat-footed 11 (-2 size, +3 natural, +1 Dex)
HP: (18d8+54)
Defensive Abilities fast healing 9; DR 5/bludgeoning; Immune immunity to cold.; Resist Channel Resistance + 4
Str 28, Dex 12, Con -, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 14
Base Atk +13; CMB +24; CMD 35

Slumbering Tsar is essentially a module about a city citadel dedicated to Orcus the God of Undeath. There are no enemies with holy attacks anywhere in it.

When I agreed that necromancy is on the table, I was even more of a newbie and had no idea that in Pathfinder there is an easily accessible template for skellies that cannot be killed except by holy attacks.

I am toying with the idea of ruling that this line "A bloody skeleton is destroyed" means that the Cleric who will presumably create it with https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/animate-dead/
will lose control of it. The cleric does not have Rebuke Undead and has no way to take back control of it, unless there is a Cleric spell on that account that I have missed.

That's my two options if they get that dragon raised - I rule that Deathless resets control, or they meet that lich which has Command Undead feature and he takes it away from them. Until, than, this dragon skellie is looking like the ultimate win condition for the entire module because there isn't anything that can actually kill it.

[icefractal]

I mean, it comes back an hour later. So it's not like it prevents a TPK, and/or if the party has to flee they're leaving the bones behind.

The only case where Deathless makes a big difference is if you have glass-cannon enemies specifically targeting the skeleton then conveniently dying before they can turn that firepower on the party. Which seems both tricky to pull off and also not in keeping with the "hands-off, let the dice fall as they will, sandbox" style.


Also, if you're going to change how this works, you really need to tell the players ASAP. If I joined a game, and the GM said "no undead minions" up front, then fine, not a problem. If I planned for an extended time to create a skeleton, hauled around a corpse for it, went to effort to acquire onyx, and then the GM says it won't actually work? I'd be pissed.

[Beni-Kujaku]

The cleric does not have Rebuke Undead and has no way to take back control of it, unless there is a Cleric spell on that account that I have missed.

That's my two options if they get that dragon raised - I rule that Deathless resets control, or they meet that lich which has Command Undead feature and he takes it away from them. Until, than, this dragon skellie is looking like the ultimate win condition for the entire module because there isn't anything that can actually kill it.

Once again, it's not really it being deathless that is a problem, but rather the immediate power of an 18 HD, CR 10 skeleton in an ECL 12 environment. My advice is to let them have it and play with it for a bit, see how strong it is for a few sessions, and then have the lich come and Command Undead the hell out of it. Use the spell, not the class feature, as it's highly unlikely that the lich has an equivalent turning level of 36. It's mindless, so there's no save, and it's only a 2nd level spell. Let's see how the party manages to fight their old ally as well as a lich. It can create a whole desperate situation where they have to flee and the lich has really no reason to go after them.

Also, don't forget that bloody skeletons count as twice their regular HD at creation, so if they go the distance of finding an Old dragon's corpse, gathering the onyx (actually not that hard, it's only 900 gp) and raising their CL to 18, they should be rewarded for it. They should feel like the kings of the world for a little while. It's not a problem if they steamroll a few sessions of the module, it will only make the fall harder when the lich takes control of one of their greatest assets with a 2nd level spell.

Also, the thing as an AC of 12 and can't fly nor breathe, it's not like it will make the whole module irrelevant, though it will be pretty strong in offense and grappling.

[Silva Stormrage]

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/skeleton-medium/skeleton-bloody/
>Deathless (Su)
"A bloody skeleton is destroyed when reduced to 0 hit points, but it returns to unlife 1 hour later at 1 hit point, allowing its fast healing thereafter to resume healing it. A bloody skeleton can be permanently destroyed if it is destroyed by positive energy, if it is reduced to 0 hit points in the area of a bless or hallow spell, or if its remains are sprinkled with a vial of holy water."

I did the math on the stats of its template if they raise it
>Melee bite +20 (2d8+9), 2 claws +20 (2d6+9), 2 wings +15 (1d8+9), tail +15 (2d6+9)
AC 12, touch 9, flat-footed 11 (-2 size, +3 natural, +1 Dex)
HP: (18d8+54)
Defensive Abilities fast healing 9; DR 5/bludgeoning; Immune immunity to cold.; Resist Channel Resistance + 4
Str 28, Dex 12, Con -, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 14
Base Atk +13; CMB +24; CMD 35

Slumbering Tsar is essentially a module about a city citadel dedicated to Orcus the God of Undeath. There are no enemies with holy attacks anywhere in it.

When I agreed that necromancy is on the table, I was even more of a newbie and had no idea that in Pathfinder there is an easily accessible template for skellies that cannot be killed except by holy attacks.

I am toying with the idea of ruling that this line "A bloody skeleton is destroyed" means that the Cleric who will presumably create it with https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/animate-dead/
will lose control of it. The cleric does not have Rebuke Undead and has no way to take back control of it, unless there is a Cleric spell on that account that I have missed.

That's my two options if they get that dragon raised - I rule that Deathless resets control, or they meet that lich which has Command Undead feature and he takes it away from them. Until, than, this dragon skellie is looking like the ultimate win condition for the entire module because there isn't anything that can actually kill it.

I would also agree that while the bloody template is too strong that nerf makes it completely against what the player is expecting. The better approach would be to just be up front with the player. "Hey I didn't realize there was a template that made the undead literally immortal... that is a bit too strong for me to handle atm could we add some kind of weakness? Maybe to vile damage or similar or give it a maximum number of "Lives"? work with the player for a solution where you are both happy.

If don't want to work with the player you can also use the spell "Command Undead" which will just mind control the undead no save and force the player to arguably make opposed cha checks to give the creature orders. It isn't unreasonable for Orcus minions to have scrolls or wands of that spell lying around to deal with random undead.

[arkieNork]

I mean, it comes back an hour later. So it's not like it prevents a TPK, and/or if the party has to flee they're leaving the bones behind.
...
Also, if you're going to change how this works, you really need to tell the players ASAP. If I joined a game, and the GM said "no undead minions" up front, then fine, not a problem. If I planned for an extended time to create a skeleton, hauled around a corpse for it, went to effort to acquire onyx, and then the GM says it won't actually work? I'd be pissed.


I would also agree that while the bloody template is too strong that nerf makes it completely against what the player is expecting.

my first question here is 'Am I in fact changing 'how it works'?' I think we've established that I am not an expert on DnD rules - is my interpretation here actually against the rules?

"A bloody skeleton is destroyed when reduced to 0 hit points, but it returns to unlife 1 hour "

My justification for interpreting it as I posted above is to look for analogs - if a PC is Dominated via Dominate Person by say, a 'Moon Hag' (present in the module) and ordered to attack the party and they have to kill that PC to stop him. If the party were than to Raise Dead their fallen companion. Is the Dominate Person still in effect? I assumed it wouldn't be, but I don't know of an official ruling for or against it. In DnD ruleset, does this kind of control magic persist through death and resurrection?

My above assumption crossed over from Magic the Gathering rules - if a creature with an ongoing enchantment is dead or destroyed, the enchantment should wear off because there is nothing for it to enchant any more.

Because that's the way I am reading that line. Undead do not 'die', they are 'destroyed' as in the creature no longer exists. Than it 'returns to unlife' without any ongoing enchantments. It can be enchanted again - if they players get away from it, leave it alone and come back with a wand of command undead or something

I was looking forward to an opportunity to play up the angle of 'necromancy is dangerous, folks. Read the fine print and take precautions', by surprising them with a little scare of having their big bad dragon turn on them after reviving. It's not even particularly dangerous because it revives with almost no hp, so if you win initiative you could literally slap it back down to zero and go look for a scroll or wand.

In the long run, this interpretation of Deathless is not so much a removal of their necromancy options, as it is putting a little maintenance tax on it.


so if they go the distance of finding an Old dragon's corpse, gathering the onyx (actually not that hard, it's only 900 gp) and raising their CL to 18, they should be rewarded for it. They should feel like the kings of the world for a little while. It's not a problem if they steamroll a few sessions of the module

In this module, the dragon corpse is literally just on the side of the road through Desolation, about 20 miles north of the camp. One of the first things their summoned scouts have found. It was guarded by a Gore Beetle Swarm - a CR 8 encounter. Because the swarm is stated to have gestated inside the dragon after it ate contaminated livestock, and have eaten the dragon from inside out very recently, I even allowed them to loot a pristine dragon hide with a ~9,000g price tag. And its one cast of Desecrate for them to be able to raise their CL/HD limit without issue.

Necromancy is frustratingly easy and OP in DnD and I think it will completely break the 'hands off, stick to the module' approach we've had so far.

I am going to need to come up with a long term malus to compensate against it because otherwise it will just make all 'adventuring' a trivial matter of finding enough Onyx and than steam rolling through everything. We hadn't used necromancy much up until now because at low levels it was too expensive, and 4 to 9ish were in a relatively populated and lawful province.

Now they are in an area where by the module and world building I've done so far, there is no authority to countermand it. They are in an essentially abandoned wasteland under the control of Orcus. The settlement they are operating out of it is run by a disguised lich who used undead minions to keep the population in check. They are making a ton of effort to get on the lich's good side. So aside from the difficulty of shipping in the onyx there is no disincentive against nercomancy in this particular location. The onyx limitation I have justified as

a) this world is still recovering from a 'world war' scale conflict directly against the cult of Orcus centuries later. (this is directly from the module). What civilizations exist are all very much against necromancy and onyx is contraband material everywhere

and (b) Orcus cult is still very much active and wants all that onyx for themselves

(c) its particularly hard to get onyx around here because the caravans heading here are heavily inspected specifically because they are skirting lands where Orcus cult is operating and also because what contraband does evade these controls, usually does it as part of the Cult's operations which are indeed particularly rampant in this region. So its a low demand and high supply kind of deal.

But that just made the DC for downtime haggling and contraband organizations higher the PCs are still accumulating it gradually.

So in the end - they have a relatively easy way to acquire a wand or scroll of Command Undead, via that very lich whom they have almost befriended and their accumulation of required components is inevitable. Thus deathless 'bloody' variants of every major monster they come across are also inevitable. There are quite a few 'big' targets across the wasteland they could find, kill and raise. In the module there is mention of several that are technically stated to have active operations and which could target the players to steal their undead minions, but that would be DM fiat. Most of the module is static encounters the players need to trip on.

I really want to maintain the playstyle we had - if the monsters can do, the players should be able to do it and vice versa. I dislike that necromancy and summoned minions etc is almost always off the table (though now I understand much better why that's so). But I still need to find a dice based system to strike that balance between

>They should feel like the kings of the world for a little while. It's not a problem if they steamroll a few sessions of the module

and 'you get to buy CR10+ reusable minions at 1k a pop'

eventually something should be able to come along and take away their toys so they actually have some challenge again.

Aside from the deathless interpretation I've been thinking of an accumulative 1d100 roll vs 'bad event' DC. Like every time any minions of Orcus spot them in possession of any undead assets, there is a +1 to DC on a 1d100 to avoid triggering a hunt. Once that DC is triggered, one of the bigger 'active' threats in the area (lich, master vampire, hag coven) seeks them out to steal their undead minion.

Parallel to this I am thinking of running another +1 daily vs 1d100 accumulation to avoid notice of a divine anti-undead faction. If that gets tripped, they get a hard encounter from Pharasma's divine minions or some other deity that just hates undead.

So, to reiterate - I am not trying to weasel my way out of my promise to the players here, I just think my 'deathless' interpretation is according to the rules and I think that from a world-building perspective there needs to be some direct consequences for using undead.

There is a third option that I also see - if I were to play the Slumbering Saga module by the letter as written, there is a rather hard counter against evil parties in there, once they get into the city:

"The Pall Over Tsar"
" Creates an insidious infection of evil in any creature that dares sleep (or enter a trance in the case of elves) while within the city’s walls. This does not include a creature being knocked unconscious or otherwise rendered asleep, only when a creature attempts to rest. Any sentient living creature of at least 4 Intelligence that sleeps within the city suffers hideous nightmares of Abyssal realms and demonic worship centered around a hideous, bloated, ram-headed demon prince. The compulsion to bow before this demon prince is strong. This requires a DC 20 Will save each time the creature so rests. If the save is failed, upon waking the creature’s alignment will slip one step closer to evil. This does not automatically turn a character against his party but could make things more difficult. If an evil alignment is reached by these means, then the next failed save results in a devotion to the worship of Orcus. At this point the character becomes an NPC under the control of the GM until such time as the alignment shift has been reversed. Reversing a shift to an evil alignment also removes any compulsion to worship Orcus. Like a Helm of Opposite Alignment this alignment shift can only be removed by a wish or miracle spell, and the affected creature will resist doing so. For characters with an alignment requirement, an atonement is also necessary for the curse to be fully lifted. There is one additional means of removing this alignment shift, and that is to spend the night in the garden of Tranquility’s Face (Area A6) hidden deep in the wastes of the Desolation as described in Chapter 4 of Slumbering Tsar: The Desolation. Being cured in this way precludes the need for an atonement spell. Even if a cursed character is cured, any additional rest periods spent within the city require a new saving throw to see if the process is repeated. Unless otherwise noted, every sentient, living creature in the city is already of evil alignment, and many are fully devoted to Orcus."

The current party is two thirds evil so they are one failed save away from TPK by compulsion. Relatively easy to avoid by simply not resting inside the walls if forewarned. I am now thinking of gradually stretching it out to beyond the walls of Tsar, at an initial DC of 1 but climbing by 1 every day so long as a necromancy spell was cast that day, or a command link over any undead was maintained.

It would also be thematically justified that if you choose to play around with necromancy in the shadow of a stronghold of Orcus, aka 'The Demon Prince of Undeath', on the material plane, it might make you liable to become dominated by him. I did drop a lot of hints to them when they were setting up their own onyx smuggling contacts that 'this is necromancy, the big bad of this setting, your primary enemy. this kind of magic is entirely his domain...'

[Quertus]

The undead being immortal… is completely useless. That in no way keeps the party alive, or otherwise completes their objectives. Any line of thought that begins with, “this thing can’t be permanently killed, it just keeps coming back, therefore it’s OP” is inherently flawed. I can deal with that with a 1st level peasant, it’s not hard.

That said, thinking in terms of how to get rid of it is antithetical to, and is in fact the opposite of a “let the dice fall where they may” mindset.

AFAICT, the actual issue here is, if the Lich canonically knows and memorizes Control Undead, that’s a second TPK just waiting for the party thanks to the inclusion of this module. And, you know, anything that kills the Cleric probably results in a TPK (which was already a concern given the level difference in the party, but now is doubly true), and results in the nigh-permanent loss of the minion regardless.

And also the small issue of the Cleric needing to boost their caster level to make this work in the first place. Which… I’m starting to suspect will be nigh impossible, as (given things like the GM making it hard for the party to even acquire Onyx) I’m starting to suspect that this is a “no items D&D” (or its step sibling, “nothing but random gear - no item shops, no (time for) crafting D&D”. Which… even the most experienced GM can create a horror story attempting that setup - 3e just wasn’t designed with that mindset.

So, if your group is really into restarting at 1st level, hugely disparate levels, random treasure only, let the dice fall where they may, high lethality gaming, might I suggest looking into 2e D&D, as at least that system has such considerations in its blood.

Senility willing, if no ninjas beat me to it, I might math out the impossible skeleton vs Vrocks match tonight.

[arkieNork]

And also the small issue of the Cleric needing to boost their caster level to make this work in the first place.

what CL limitation are you referring to?

[Quertus]

what CL limitation are you referring to?

I guess I was referencing this:



Also, don't forget that bloody skeletons count as twice their regular HD at creation, so if they go the distance of finding an Old dragon's corpse, gathering the onyx (actually not that hard, it's only 900 gp) and raising their CL to 18, they should be rewarded for it. They should feel like the kings of the world for a little while. It's not a problem if they steamroll a few sessions of the module, it will only make the fall harder when the lich takes control of one of their greatest assets with a 2nd level spell.

Now, you said this:



And its one cast of Desecrate for them to be able to raise their CL/HD limit without issue. '

Which... ah, 4xCL in HD animated with Animate Dead would do it, if Bloody Skeleton was something you could create with Animate Dead, I suppose. So... is it? The link doesn't have that information afaict.

Oh, right, and I said I was, senility and ninjas willing, gonna look at some math. Sigh.

So, what are we looking at?



Vrock AC is 22, and they have DR 10/Good

The Vrock, assuming Heroism active, has 2 attacks at +17 2d6+6, one at +15 1d8+3, and 2 more +15 1d6+3

, plus spores infection for d8 (~4) on infliction and d4 per round for the next 10 rounds (~2.)

Verses


I did the math on the stats of its template if they raise it
>Melee bite +20 (2d8+9), 2 claws +20 (2d6+9), 2 wings +15 (1d8+9), tail +15 (2d6+9)
AC 12, touch 9, flat-footed 11 (-2 size, +3 natural, +1 Dex)
HP: (18d8+54)
Defensive Abilities fast healing 9; DR 5/bludgeoning; Immune immunity to cold.; Resist Channel Resistance + 4
Str 28, Dex 12, Con -, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 14
Base Atk +13; CMB +24; CMD 35

I'm not going to do this right, but as a rough estimate...

The Vrock hits on a 2, dealing an average of .95 * (8 + 8 + 2.5 + 1.5), or 19 damage per round. 10 after fast healing. Against an estimated 135 HP, the skeleton goes down in 13 rounds against 1 Vrock. [NOTE: this is before figuring in spores - do those work on undead? They're AoE, so they also hit the party, right?]

The Bloody Skeleton hits on a 2 or 7, dealing an average of .95 * (8 + 8 + 6 + 6) + .7 * (3.5 + 3.5 + 6), or about 36 damage per round (which is about what the Barbarian was expecting, which was listed as 3-4 rounds to drop a Vrock).

So, if that's close to correct, and the Vrock doesn't have (or just doesn't use) Power Attack or any other abilities, and just goes toe to toe with the skeleton in a mindless stand-up fight, the Bloody Skeleton wins handily.

OTOH, against even 2 mindless Vrock opponents, the Vrocks pile on damage much faster now compared to the dragon's Fast Healing, and the 2nd Vrock may well drop the Bloody Skeleton the round after the 1st Vrock drops.

So, it's nice and all, but it's a far cry from solving all the party's problems for them, even against foes dumb enough to just stand there and trade blows with a regenerating undead. Which... should be vanishingly rare in your campaign, from what you've said.