OOTS #1287 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[hamishspence]

Minrah is hilariously wise.

[gustmes]

Great nudge towards the name of book #1

[Crusher]

Ah, the feels are feeling it.

[Shining Wrath]

I think I'm having to pick pieces of the fourth wall out of my face and hair because it was just destroyed by an explosion of self-aware characters.

Pop charts? Player's Handbook? Henri Planck? Get to the end of the page?

Thanks, Giant. I needed the laugh.

[ZhonLord]

The nostalgia of this hallway is so powerful it's even causing the characters to regress slightly to some of their past behaviors and joke-arounds, I love it!

[Edward15]

Huh, I was expecting to be on them commenting about the Deja Vu and why exactly Seirini based the hallway on Dourukan's Dungeon.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

That dig by Roy at the end had me actually chuckling aloud. I love the idea that there’s a quantum mechanics of HP in the stick world—now I have to wonder if there’s an uncertainty principle as well.

[Coyote0715]

Just a bunch of Dungeon Crawlin' Fools!

[Somniloquist]

I guess revertigo (https://metro.co.uk/2022/05/14/what-is-associative-regression-16643879/) applies to locations too.

Oh, and confirmation that everyone made it through the portal okay.

[dancrilis]

I enjoyed that - twas nice.

[Sylian]

Fun to see some old school jokes while also contrasting them with the more recent additions to the comic. Will be fun to see what happens next.

[Tundar]

Thank you for taking me back to the very begining. Hillarious as always!

[Resileaf]

Nostalgia dungeon means nostalgia conversations, game references included.

[SpykeMH]

Huh, I was expecting to be on them commenting about the Deja Vu and why exactly Seirini based the hallway on Dourukan's Dungeon.

We had to get the classic Dungeon Crawlin' Fools humor out of the way first. Maybe that will happen next comic.

[ZhonLord]

That dig by Roy at the end had me actually chuckling aloud. I love the idea that there’s a quantum mechanics of HP in the stick world—now I have to wonder if there’s an uncertainty principle as well.

We call that "Temp HP". It's there, and it's lost first, but it doesn't count as part of your actual hit points. It's.... in-between.

[Sir_Norbert]

Somehow, quantum mechanics jokes were not what I expected when I clicked on the new strip, but that was very nicely done.

[declinator]

Beautiful! Made me flick through the first couple of pages once again. The evolution of Giant's style is fascinating.

Interestingly enough, the first time the Order is shown moving along a dungeon corridor (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0002.html), their order (heh!) is Roy, Durkon, Haley, Elan, V, Belkar (slightly off to the side).



Henri Planck?


Who is Henri?

[Rack]

Did you make a strip just for me?

[Psyren]

"And what's the deal with Armor Class?"
[/seinfeldvoice]

[Reboot]

Next strip: Elan musing on why it's called dungeon crawling when they're clearly walking

[Hardcore]

Good old times. Or something...

[Ionathus]

It's so weird to see the party explicitly talking about game mechanics again! It's been quite awhile since those references were the meat of the joke, rather than a throwaway line at the end of one...

It's a lot of fun to see the nostalgic "joking about the rules" humor come back, but with Rich now having 20 years' writing experience to make the dialogue a lot snappier.


The nostalgia of this hallway is so powerful it's even causing the characters to regress slightly to some of their past behaviors and joke-arounds, I love it!

Wild theory, but...is it possible this is a tangible, intentional effect of the hallway? Some defense that's meant to alter how invaders behave? I suppose that doesn't explain Lien, O-Chul, and Minrah's lack of being affected. But I'm curious if this is just a callback for simple fun lighthearted nostalgia reasons, or if the similarity to Dorukan's dungeon is going to have plot consequences.

[hroþila]

That was all around great, but what got the biggest smile from me was "None of those words are in the Player's Handbook"

[woweedd]

Huh. Bit of associative regression going? Uh, for those unaware, that's that thing where being around people or places that remind you of your past makes you start acting like you did in the past. Think of how you, a grown adult, might still feel like a child when you're around your parents, or how you suddenly become a blithering idiot when hanging out with your old college friends. Evidently, it applies to locations too.

[Gift Jeraff]

Nice touch that Blackwing isn't seen at all. Truly back to the comic's roots.

[Blue Dragon]

Finally! I never waited for a new strip so eagerly in almost twenty years of reading!

[facw]

"And what's the deal with Armor Class?"
[/seinfeldvoice]

Look we are just lucky that this whole comic postdates THAC0

[LuPuWei]

Its just... really nice to see them riffing off each other again... and poor old Blackwing goes back to being invisible :smallbiggrin:

[Fergie0044]

Aaaaaaaaaaah, the meta humour, it burns!!!!

[Tubercular Ox]

They're using the exact same feet in every panel. Also, this strip makes me uncomfortable. I keep looking for something wrong.

[Doug Lampert]

That dig by Roy at the end had me actually chuckling aloud. I love the idea that there’s a quantum mechanics of HP in the stick world—now I have to wonder if there’s an uncertainty principle as well.

HP are clearly quantized in D&D land, experiments with Cure Minor and Inflict Minor would rather easily demonstrate this.

XP being a thing and quantized is quite a bit harder to figure out in game, but still doable.

[Frozenstep]

Uh oh, no one mention to Elan that going up a level means getting more hit points.

I wonder if the environment just has the Order feeling nostalgic...but I love Haley finding a way to make this about money, V finding a way to make this about...whatever goes for science around here, and Belkar finding a way to make this about sadism. But also I kind of appreciate Roy finding a way to diplomatically engage with an Elan moment.

[Ionathus]

They're using the exact same feet in every panel. Also, this strip makes me uncomfortable. I keep looking for something wrong.

That's...holy cow, that's fascinating.

Yeah, this is the most visually static strip we've had in ages: a single background, repeated foot artwork, no perspective changes. In an era where Rich has really been playing with the art and pushing the limits of "stick figures", it's interesting to see a comic be this (I assume) intentionally static! I wonder if that's what's making you uncomfortable, the lack of dynamic artwork?

Note that I'm definitely not dissing the art choice -- you don't need to have every strip be amazingly unique, and it's kind of soothing to have them just consistently walking forward and bantering to break up the pacing. Plus I get the feeling there's a reason for it.

Also also: doesn't this one just feel ripe for a Dinosaur Comics -style "rant edit" template? One where Elan shares some outlandish opinion and everyone reacts to it? :smalltongue:

[Lionheart261]

Wild theory, but...is it possible this is a tangible, intentional effect of the hallway? Some defense that's meant to alter how invaders behave? I suppose that doesn't explain Lien, O-Chul, and Minrah's lack of being affected. But I'm curious if this is just a callback for simple fun lighthearted nostalgia reasons, or if the similarity to Dorukan's dungeon is going to have plot consequences.

I think you may be on to something: your comment kinda crystalized a theory I wouldn't have thought of without it, so thanks for that, lol.

I have to wonder: given that it's still not entirely clear how closely Serini was monitoring the Order's activities and the Gates as a whole (unless I'm forgetting something she mentioned off-handedly), how likely is it that Serini ended up copying their homework, as it were?

Think about it: she's got the interior of Dorukan's dungeon mapped, either as an illusion built on their memories or a tangible duplicate, and while her gate still serves as a monument to Kraagor, its actual defensive strategy incorporates her own ideals on top of those of her party.

Like Dorukan, she embraces the many benefits of magical potency...but if you can't get it the usual ways, store-bought is fine.

Like Lirien, she welcomes the aid of magical creatures...but when you don't take something's "nature" as a given, you get a lot more to work with.

Like Girard, she knows the value of guile and trickery better than anyone...but she was wise enough not to close herself off entirely.

And like Soon, she has her principles, for better and for worse...but she knew how to lie, even to her friends if need be.

I don't know if Serini knew that hers would be the last Gate standing...but if she hadn't prepared for that by potentially breaking the oath she made, the oath she herself came up with...I think it's a safe bet that the world would have ended already.

[Aquillion]

That dig by Roy at the end had me actually chuckling aloud. I love the idea that there’s a quantum mechanics of HP in the stick world—now I have to wonder if there’s an uncertainty principle as well.
Some DMs don't actually track enemy HP. That would probably be the uncertainty principle in action.

[Khay]

"What's the deal with airline food?" is the most famous Seinfeld bit that was never actually on Seinfeld. It was always a meta-joke about Seinfeld-style observational humor. In the same vein, "what's the deal with hit points" is the most famous early OotS bit that was never actually in early OotS. Spell levels, bard songs, and Spot checks, but not hit points.

Very fun to see it pop up here for real, very meta. Like... second-level meta, it's a joke about a joke that was originally a joke about jokes. Though I'm bracing myself for a turn here.

[Daisho]

Wait, I think I just failed a call-back check.

Does this mean the Order doesn't have to upgrade to 5e for the finale?

[Tubercular Ox]

I wonder if that's what's making you uncomfortable, the lack of dynamic artwork?


Maybe. I was uncomfortable first, then perused the comic firmly, saw the feet, felt no catharsis.

I think it's paranoia. The story lost tension, and now I'm tense over the loss.

Edit: Like in an action or horror movie, you're in the middle of the climax, and suddenly someone says, "Let's have a picnic and talk about Hit Points," and then they do. Get out of there! It's a trap! You're in the middle of a climax!

[Thrawn4]

I already had to smile at the first panel. A nice mix of nostalgia and character development :-)

[KorvinStarmast]

Minrah is hilariously wise. Why do you think she multiclassed into cleric? Also, she seems to me to be signaling, from the author, that this was light-hearted filler.

Great nudge towards the name of book #1 Yes.

I guess revertigo (https://metro.co.uk/2022/05/14/what-is-associative-regression-16643879/) applies to locations too. It can. Also to smells.

Oh, and confirmation that everyone made it through the portal okay. Which is nice.

That was all around great, but what got the biggest smile from me was "None of those words are in the Player's Handbook" Likewise. Also, O-Chul is on point.

Beyond that, the over-analysis of HP is a tiresome habit among D&D geeks, who sometimes forget that they are playing a game.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

It's a lot of fun to see the nostalgic "joking about the rules" humor come back, but with Rich now having 20 years' writing experience to make the dialogue a lot snappier.

Yeah, it's delightful how the style can be instantly clocked as a callback to the early days, but with significant maturation and even more sophisticated content. It feels like the old strips, but it's much improved.

Also, I chuckled at O'Chul referencing Dungeon Crawlin' Fools in the last panel.

EDIT: keen eyes on the static poses, I gotta imagine this is a strong indicator that something is wrong. Did they all get frozen in time, and are being hit with a mind whammy so they don't notice?

[ratfox]

Oh, the memories... It's all coming back... I feel young again!

Noting in passing that by the end of the month, the OOTS will be
20 years old

[iyaerP]

This page is a masterpiece of a comic.

The perfect callbacks, the perfect lampshade hanging, the subversion of reality by Belkar's insane troll logic and Elan's gullibility. It's amazing.

/chef's kiss

[Laurentio III]

That dig by Roy at the end had me actually chuckling aloud. I love the idea that there’s a quantum mechanics of HP in the stick world—now I have to wonder if there’s an uncertainty principle as well.
Sure. Think about - a monster deals 12 hit points to you. But you get a -3 damage reduction, so these are just 9 hit points. But the DM tells you that the attack is magical, so no damage recution, again 12 hit points.

[Shining Wrath]

What we don't want is for someone to point out to Elan that an illusion can cost you hit points if you believe it's real, but you won't take the damage if you disbelieve in time. Those lost hit points are Schrodinger's hit points until you resolve whether or not you have successfully disbelieved.

[Ionathus]

I think you may be on to something: your comment kinda crystalized a theory I wouldn't have thought of without it, so thanks for that, lol.

I have to wonder: given that it's still not entirely clear how closely Serini was monitoring the Order's activities and the Gates as a whole (unless I'm forgetting something she mentioned off-handedly), how likely is it that Serini ended up copying their homework, as it were?

Think about it: she's got the interior of Dorukan's dungeon mapped, either as an illusion built on their memories or a tangible duplicate, and while her gate still serves as a monument to Kraagor, its actual defensive strategy incorporates her own ideals on top of those of her party.

Like Dorukan, she embraces the many benefits of magical potency...but if you can't get it the usual ways, store-bought is fine.

Like Lirien, she welcomes the aid of magical creatures...but when you don't take something's "nature" as a given, you get a lot more to work with.

Like Girard, she knows the value of guile and trickery better than anyone...but she was wise enough not to close herself off entirely.

And like Soon, she has her principles, for better and for worse...but she knew how to lie, even to her friends if need be.

I don't know if Serini knew that hers would be the last Gate standing...but if she hadn't prepared for that by potentially breaking the oath she made, the oath she herself came up with...I think it's a safe bet that the world would have ended already.

I'm with you partway on that: Serini is just as broken a person as the rest of the Scribblers seemed to be...but her specific "thing" is regret, being sad that her friends never reconciled, perhaps feeling some form of survivor's guilt? I like your idea that her dungeon incorporates elements of each other Scribbler, but I think it's intended with a somber, bittersweet tone.

The Scribblers' big problem was that they couldn't work together. That's where they "failed" and the Order of the Stick, despite being lower power, is going to "succeed" (my personal bet, at least). Had all the Scribblers worked together, they would've been like a Megazord -- by their powers combined, they're unstoppable. But Serini's dungeon isn't unstoppable, even if it incorporates the strengths of each other Scribbler: it's more like a photo album or an epitaph, a sad echo of what they could have accomplished if they had worked together, created by a woman who didn't appreciate the team she had until it was too late.

I may be getting a little too Literary Critic on this element of the story, but it's definitely fun to think about regardless!


Maybe. I was uncomfortable first, then perused the comic firmly, saw the feet, felt no catharsis.

I think it's paranoia. The story lost tension, and now I'm tense over the loss.

Edit: Like in an action or horror movie, you're in the middle of the climax, and suddenly someone says, "Let's have a picnic and talk about Hit Points," and then they do. Get out of there! It's a trap! You're in the middle of a climax!

The comic is definitely not in the middle of a climax, though. Like, this isn't a fight scene, we're still firmly in downtime -- in fact Roy recently calculated that it's going to take multiple days for Team Evil to reach this final dungeon (panel 1 here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1276.html)).

I get that this is the final book so everything feels like it's building towards the ultimate showdown, but like it or not, we're still a long ways off. This is the perfect time for reminiscing, revelations, lore, and character work.

[Wildstag]

They're using the exact same feet in every panel. Also, this strip makes me uncomfortable. I keep looking for something wrong.

I think their torsos maintain position as well. Only arms and heads appear to be moving.

[Provengreil]

That dig by Roy at the end had me actually chuckling aloud. I love the idea that there’s a quantum mechanics of HP in the stick world—now I have to wonder if there’s an uncertainty principle as well.

Just hide the die roll. You become an Uncertainty Lich! (https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=1014)

[warmachine]

What I find funny is someone in the past must have theorised about quantised hit points, then repeatedly tested the theory on someone with varying degrees of harm, then tested on various living things, undead, constructs, and inanimate objects. Then others would read this theory and test it themselves. Inanimate objects would confuse the theory till someone theorises hardness and tests that. I wonder if the world of OotS has scientific journals.

[Tubercular Ox]

The comic is definitely not in the middle of a climax, though. Like, this isn't a fight scene, we're still firmly in downtime -- in fact Roy recently calculated that it's going to take multiple days for Team Evil to reach this final dungeon (panel 1 here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1276.html)).

I stand by my feelings, whether I pick the right words for them or not! >_>

KIRBY DISTRACTION DANCE! <(0_0<) <(0_0)> (>0_0)>

My favorite choice is if Minrah is right and the next strip treats it as if this conversation never happened. That lets Rich have his moment of nostalgia without cutting the tension, because jumping to the next part of the story will happen in a single click once the next strip is published. I'm only suffering because we're on the bleeding edge right now.

This would also let Rich do a little bit of time skip, if he wants, but not too much.

Next favorite is if the party gets ambushed or sets off a trap or is otherwise rewarded for their regression. That'd be cool because Rich set them up for a fall and we were all too busy being nostalgic to notice. Nice fake-out.

Third favorite is the nostalgia continues. This would probably leave me tense but at least it could still segue into one of the above two, and I bet it would appeal to other segments of the audience.

Least favorite is if there's a continuity panel in the next strip but everyone's back to their previous personalities and priorities without explanation.

And I feel better for saying all that. Thank you for your time.

[KorvinStarmast]

I wonder if the world of OotS has scientific journals. It's a self-aware parody fantasy world. Why would they?
(Vaarsuvius has made any number of jests about the laws of physics (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0754.html) and probability (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html) being out to lunch; those are but two.)

[Kareasint]

I have been playing D&D since Basic.

I usually play a healer too. At times, I wondered if the monsters fell like Belkar does (enjoying another opportunity to beat up my party).

[Majiy]

This made me smile. Thank you.

[Ionathus]

What I find funny is someone in the past must have theorised about quantised hit points, then repeatedly tested the theory on someone with varying degrees of harm, then tested on various living things, undead, constructs, and inanimate objects. Then others would read this theory and test it themselves. Inanimate objects would confuse the theory till someone theorises hardness and tests that. I wonder if the world of OotS has scientific journals.

So you're saying is that somewhere out there in OotS-verse, there's someone who can help me Calculate My Pet's HP with Their 100% Legitimate Formula (https://youtu.be/9Jcxc-ddWKI)?

[Fyraltari]

Huh, I was expecting to be on them commenting about the Deja Vu and why exactly Seirini based the hallway on Dourukan's Dungeon.
How do you know Dorukan didn't base his dungeon on Serini's?

I think their torsos maintain position as well. Only arms and heads appear to be moving.
I think that's just part of the call back. Look how stiff Roy was there (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0013.html) for example.

[drazen]

Why has Sunny had the anti-antimagic lens on since leaving "home," *except* for when they deactivated the swapover trap?

Seems like that could be troublesome if they need a quick antimagic field.

[Joebob]

Salt, Stone and Storm, I didn't realize just how much I missed this sort of strip. Funniest page in a long time.

Also, I get the funny feeling that they aren't actually moving.


Uh oh, no one mention to Elan that going up a level means getting more hit points.

Don't worry, they're going down a level.

[Vikenlugaid]

Just comedy gold, thanks.

[Malto]

Two things:
-Serini is not actually seen in the whole strip, and
-Roy is on second position in the first panel, but he walks on first in the second but last panel (speaking of the Order being frozen)

[Appchoy]

This sounds a lot like Florencio Science to me. Shout-out to Pigsc on youtube, his Florencio series is some of the best/ funniest Starcraft 2 commentary. His other stuff is great too.

[Blue Dragon]

They're using the exact same feet in every panel. Also, this strip makes me uncomfortable. I keep looking for something wrong.

Keen eye! Maybe you just answered your own question!

[TRH]

No Elan, you're thinking of the Hot 100. Adult Pop just tracks airplay on one specific radio format. You'd think the party's music guy would understand the distinction.

[Quiddle]

I had to do a double take that I was in the right part of the story when I opened this page.

[gbaji]

-Roy is on second position in the first panel, but he walks on first in the second but last panel (speaking of the Order being frozen)

Noticed that too. Actually, I first noticed that Haley had moved to the front in the first panel (Roy was first into the room in the previous strip). She's looking ahead and down, so I'm assuming she's checking for traps. Then I guess she decided (as rogues tend to do) to let the meat shield take the lead once they got far enough down the hall.

[137beth]

Oh my Northern Gods this page is perfect.

Hmm, I wonder if they are going to go through renditions of other parts of their journey? Supernormal Step did something similar.

[Shining Wrath]

Hey guys - final panel - Sunny's main eye is open and looking right at Bloodfeast.
Who does not show any signs of reverting back to Allosaurus form.

[Goosefarble]

Ahh. That old nostalgic smell. I'm gonna love this arc so much.


So you're saying is that somewhere out there in OotS-verse, there's someone who can help me Calculate My Pet's HP with Their 100% Legitimate Formula (https://youtu.be/9Jcxc-ddWKI)?

Come to think of it, "I'm not your friend, and you have no say over what I do with my body" sure does sound like something Vaarsuvius would say!


Hey guys - final panel - Sunny's main eye is open and looking right at Bloodfeast.
Who does not show any signs of reverting back to Allosaurus form.

They're wearing their special contact lens (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1253.html) that stops the anti-magic cone from working!

[danielxcutter]

I think I just suffered Inflict Cognitive Dissonance from this strip.

I'm... personally not a fan of this, honestly - the DCF humor was never really my thing. Also I can't help but suspect that this is all because of some magical effect that undoes character development or whatever as part of the "unfairness" that recording!Serini mentioned.

[KorvinStarmast]

... part of the "unfairness" that recording!Serini mentioned.
Had not thought of that. Good guess, though. :smallcool:

[Silmarwen]

I haven't logged in the forum for years. I just want to say: Awww!!! Rich, that's just heartwarming. Thank you.

[Provengreil]

For those worried they're not moving because of the feet, double check the brickwork behind them. They're moving, the feet are just part of the call back.

[ManuelSacha]

Aaaah, the nostalgia!
Brings me back all those years. It's like we never left.

[ComicSansSeraph]

I love it. Classic OotS from the days when they made jokes about the rules. I love how this one works in 3.5, 5e, or honestly any edition.

[Adeptus]

New comic is up.

Gloriously meta, Rich :cool:

I love the multi-layered callbacks in this one.

[Precure]

Perfect time to bring Miko back, so we can see some slashing action.

[Joebob]

I love it. Classic OotS from the days when they made jokes about the rules. I love how this one works in 3.5, 5e, or honestly any edition.

Not to mention about 80% of other roleplaying games.

[Tubercular Ox]

I think I just suffered Inflict Cognitive Dissonance from this strip.

I can't help but suspect that this is all because of some magical effect that undoes character development or whatever as part of the "unfairness" that recording!Serini mentioned.

Sure! Something like this, I agree. Glad to hear I'm not the only one.


I'm... personally not a fan of this, honestly - the DCF humor was never really my thing.

Ever since I started thinking of DCF as a dreamlike sequence that establishes everything before the start of the story, I've had a soft spot for it.

But I also think it's part of a movie trilogy. The first book is the standalone story that can be the end if it's not popular enough, the second and third books are the sequel that puts the characters at their lowest point (per George Lucas' advice), and the last four books are basically Return of the Jedi, because, let's face it, that's where this metaphor was going as soon as I mentioned George Lucas.

[danielxcutter]

I’ve never actually watched Star Wars and I don’t really plan to. Context?

[Charity322]

Nice touch that Blackwing isn't seen at all. Truly back to the comic's roots.

I had to go back and double check that a panel of them with their old armour and art style hadn't been snuck in. XD

[Ionathus]

I think I just suffered Inflict Cognitive Dissonance from this strip.

Not sure I understand where you're seeing cognitive dissonance: can you please explain?

[Tubercular Ox]

I’ve never actually watched Star Wars and I don’t really plan to. Context?

When George Lucas tells you how to write a movie trilogy, he says the first movie should be self contained so that it can fail, never get a sequel, and the fans who liked it can still like it as a complete story. The climax of the first movie is supposed to leave a hole open for the second movie, so it isn't really full closure, but it's close.

The second movie is supposed to end with the heroes at their lowest point in the story. It never gets as bad as the end of the second movie again.

The third movie is when they rebuild themselves from the ashes of the second movie, and is like a retelling of the first movie, except the characters are more familiar and we're more invested in them, the stakes are generally higher, and the ending is supposed to be happier thereby.

I can't remember all the advice, this was an article I read a long time ago.

Star Wars was a stand alone movie, but the climax was destroying the Death Star, not winning the war.

The Empire Strikes Back ends with Luke losing his hand, Han trapped in carbonite, and everyone licking their wounds.

In Return of the Jedi, the Emperor dies, the Empire is dissolved, Luke reconciles with his father, and Han and Leia get together.

Anyways, for Rich, the first book is literally the book that could've ended the whole story. Rich told us he was planning that until he decided to go for the seven books instead.

Roy dies at the end of the third book, and the party is never this low again. This is my sole criteria for labeling the second and third books as the second movie.

By default, the last four books must be the third movie, and you can see how the third movie is supposed to end... real soon now. Surely not more than a year or two.

EDIT: He also says a movie should have at least three visually distinct locations, which is why Star Wars starts on Tatooine, moves to inside the Death Star, and ends with a deep space battle.

[KorvinStarmast]

EDIT: He also says a movie should have at least three visually distinct locations, which is why Star Wars starts on Tatooine, moves to inside the Death Star, and ends with a deep space battle. Did he do that with American Graffiti?

As to books 4 through 7 being the last of the movie trilogy, no Ewoks please. :smallyuk:

[bunsen_h]

That dig by Roy at the end had me actually chuckling aloud. I love the idea that there’s a quantum mechanics of HP in the stick world—now I have to wonder if there’s an uncertainty principle as well.

The retroactive nature (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html) of hits (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html) and saves (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html) is consistent with the time-energy formulation of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle.


By default, the last four books must be the third movie, and you can see how the third movie is supposed to end... real soon now. Surely not more than a year or two.

"Jedi Knights don't wait 15 years for a sequel." (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-7Vx1oIS-d0s/VnBucjOaLuI/AAAAAAAARpc/0O-_Od3EMQU/s1600/BloomCounty.jpg)

[enq]

Nice touch that Blackwing isn't seen at all. Truly back to the comic's roots.

Brilliant! Thank you for pointing that out.

[IronCretin]

Hey guys - final panel - Sunny's main eye is open and looking right at Bloodfeast.
Who does not show any signs of reverting back to Allosaurus form.

Sunny has a contact lens that blocks their eye beam, as seen in #1253.

[KorvinStarmast]

Brilliant! Thank you for pointing that out.Bloodfeast and Mr Scruffy are depicted, however. Last panel.

[rasborry]

I can't believe some of you immediately recognized it as the dungeon from the beginning of the comic. From the color of the wall and floor in one panel.

[DavidSh]

Bloodfeast and Mr Scruffy are depicted, however. Last panel.
As were Minrah and the two paladins. None of those had been retroactively proclaimed to have been there all along, even if not depicted at the time. (Following the gamer tendency to only keep track of familiars when they are useful.)

[Ruck]

They're using the exact same feet in every panel.

Ha, that's a good catch.

(I don't think there's anything magical or sinister afoot; I think Rich is just deliberately calling back to the first book, art style and all.)


When George Lucas tells you how to write a movie trilogy, he says the first movie should be self contained so that it can fail, never get a sequel, and the fans who liked it can still like it as a complete story. The climax of the first movie is supposed to leave a hole open for the second movie, so it isn't really full closure, but it's close.

The second movie is supposed to end with the heroes at their lowest point in the story. It never gets as bad as the end of the second movie again.

The third movie is when they rebuild themselves from the ashes of the second movie, and is like a retelling of the first movie, except the characters are more familiar and we're more invested in them, the stakes are generally higher, and the ending is supposed to be happier thereby.

I can't remember all the advice, this was an article I read a long time ago.

Well, I don't think OOTS is quite structured that way. I mean, the obvious note is that there are seven books and not three, but even considering that, I think it's closer to a five-act structure than a three-act structure, or maybe even six acts, since it's not a tragedy:

The first act is the first two books, which set up the stakes for the story going forward.

The second act is book 3, the first reversal of fortune for the heroes (Roy dies and Azure City falls).

The third act is book 4, the first restoration, with Roy alive again and the team reunited.

The fourth act is book 5, which ends in another reversal for the Order (Durkon is dead and a vampire is impersonating him).

[And here, if this was, say, my favorite TV drama of all time, the second reversal would be the one that the Order couldn't come back from. But again, this is a heroic-comic tale, not a tragedy, and so:]

The fifth act is book 6, which restores book 5's reversal of fortune and brings the team together for the final showdown. (And then whether it's five or six acts is whether you consider the final book part of act V or its own act.)

This feels kind of awkward to me, but I think the dramatic concepts of reversal and restoration are important to the structure of the storytelling here, so I tried to make it work around those ideas.

[Joebob]

I don't know about all that stuff, I think trying to wedge Order of the Stick into some kind of structure of acts feels more than a little forced. As such things tend to be. After all, only a Sith deals in absolutes.

[JonahFalcon]

Elan's taking as well as Hawkeye did in "Letters".

Hah. Uncover that reference, I dare ya.

[brian 333]

I don't know about all that stuff, I think trying to wedge Order of the Stick into some kind of structure of acts feels more than a little forced. As such things tend to be. After all, only a Sith deals in absolutes.

Absolutism being reserved for Sith is an absolutist position. Does that not therefore indicate that the speaker is a Sith?

The idea that all, or even most, stories can be shoehorned into a generic structure originally created for the analysis of plays is flawed. Unless the writer intentionally followed that format, (as many formula writers do,) it can only be used to show how the writer deviated from the structure.

If we apply any model at all, it should be the serial storytelling model used in early radio plays like The Lone Ranger, Golden Age pulp magazine stories like John Carter of Mars, or even the very intentional throwback to the serialized TV format used in Batman. This format strings and weaves multiple stories together, sometimes with an overarching plot tying the mini-stories together. The plot curves in these formats resemble a roller coaster more than a five act play. Disney did it well with several serialized stories aired on The Mickey Mouse Club back in the 50s.

So, tldr: five act play = wrong format. Serialized storytelling = correct format.

[KorvinStarmast]

(I don't think there's anything magical or sinister afoot; Nice pun about the feat. :smallcool:


So, tldr: five act play = wrong format. Serialized storytelling = correct format. And it matches the pulp roots of D&D Swords and Sorcery/Horror/Sci Fi/Myth/Fantasy.

[Shosho]

Elan's taking as well as Hawkeye did in "Letters".

Hah. Uncover that reference, I dare ya.

These days, most people will think of the wrong Hawkeye - not the one from Crabapple Cove.

Good callout, BTW.

[Ruck]

I don't know about all that stuff, I think trying to wedge Order of the Stick into some kind of structure of acts feels more than a little forced. As such things tend to be. After all, only a Sith deals in absolutes.

Well, it's already structured into seven books and clearly has a dramatic throughline for the entire story, while each individual book has its own arc. I don't think I've wedged anything; it's more about how each book's story indicates a major turning point in the Order's overall story.

(And I don't watch Star Trek, but "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" was meant to be ironic, right?)


So, tldr: five act play = wrong format. Serialized storytelling = correct format.

They are not incompatible. My favorite TV drama of all time is both episodic, serialized storytelling and a five-act drama.


Nice pun about the feat. :smallcool:

Geez, I didn't even notice that, and I'm usually on the ball when it comes to puns.

[AstralFire]

that was cute. i enjoyed it.

[gatemansgc]

The nostalgia of this hallway is so powerful it's even causing the characters to regress slightly to some of their past behaviors and joke-arounds, I love it!

and of course the ones who weren't part of the comic in the beginning are immune!

[Joebob]

(And I don't watch Star Trek, but "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" was meant to be ironic, right?)

Well, yes, although it made sense in the original context, which was obviously Starcraft, you philistine.

[F.Harr]

It's how they deal with stress. And boredom. And hunger. And waiting. And just before a fight. And just after a fight. Sometimes during a fight. It's their way.

O.K., I wonder if they will re-set traps as they pass them.

[Adun]

That dig by Roy at the end had me actually chuckling aloud. I love the idea that there’s a quantum mechanics of HP in the stick world—now I have to wonder if there’s an uncertainty principle as well.

Yes, there is. It's explained in the first strip of this comic. it's based on the fact whether you remember all your bonuses when you roll a d20.
They call it D20 principle of uncertainty

[KorvinStarmast]

(And I don't watch Star Trek, but "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" was meant to be ironic, right?) Star Wars has Sith, Star Trek has Romulans and Klingons.

and of course the ones who weren't part of the comic in the beginning are immune! Fair enough.

O.K., I wonder if they will re-set traps as they pass them. That would fit Elan's sense of "fixing things" to a T, I suspect. :smallyuk:

Yes, there is. It's explained in the first strip of this comic. it's based on the fact whether you remember all your bonuses when you roll a d20. They call it D20 principle of uncertainty But the cat didn't show up until book 2, right? :smallconfused: (I may have gotten some Schroedinger into my Heisenberg here).

[bunsen_h]

Elan's taking as well as Hawkeye did in "Letters".

Hah. Uncover that reference, I dare ya.

I didn't make the connection immediately, but when I looked it up, I remembered the episode. Nicely connected!

[DavidSh]

These days, most people will think of the wrong Hawkeye - not the one from Crabapple Cove.

Good callout, BTW.
Indeed, in the current age, Natty Bumppo is largely unknown.

[dave_smith354]

Indeed, in the current age, Natty Bumppo is largely unknown.

I must admit, my thoughts first went to a certain military hospital and not 19th century American literature.

[Tubercular Ox]

I don't know about all that stuff, I think trying to wedge Order of the Stick into some kind of structure of acts feels more than a little forced. As such things tend to be. After all, only a Sith deals in absolutes.

Narrative structures weren't invented to constrict authors, they were attempts to describe the best of fashionable fiction at the time. What is fashionable in all times is good writing, so I'm not surprised that Rich's story can be analyzed in multiple ways.

And if I have to make statements in order to get alternatives from people, then I have no alternative but to make statements.


My favorite TV drama of all time is both episodic, serialized storytelling and a five-act drama.

Well, alright, then. What's your favorite TV drama of all time?

[Ruck]

Well, yes, although it made sense in the original context, which was obviously Starcraft, you philistine.

I don't watch Stargate either.


Star Wars has Sith, Star Trek has Romulans and Klingons.

Well, I guess that's as close to someone taking the bait as I'm going to get.


I must admit, my thoughts first went to a certain military hospital and not 19th century American literature.

Same here. (When I think of Natty Bumppo and company, I mostly think of this (https://twain.lib.virginia.edu/projects/rissetto/offense.html).)

Edited to add: I can finally connect this to my earlier comment on this page, thanks to my favorite sitcom, NewsRadio. Beth (the secretary, played by Vicki Lewis) brings in something for Dave (the news director, played by Dave Foley) to sign, and he signs it without looking, then:

DAVE: Hey, I didn't just sign for a stolen Jeep, did I, Radar?
BETH: Dave, I don't watch Star Trek.


Well, alright, then. What's your favorite TV drama of all time?

The Shield.

[Tubercular Ox]

Same here. (When I think of Natty Bumppo and company, I mostly think of this (https://twain.lib.virginia.edu/projects/rissetto/offense.html).)


So, wait... OotS is romantic fiction, too?

[LookieLouE1707]

Shades of the ending of Stephen King's The Dark Tower series ...

[Ruck]

So, wait... OotS is romantic fiction, too?

I am unclear how you concluded that from my post.

[Tubercular Ox]

I am unclear how you concluded that from my post.

"There are nineteen rules governing literary art in domain of romantic fiction -- some say twenty-two. In "Deerslayer," Cooper violated eighteen of them."

The rules fit OotS, therefore it's romantic fiction. >:D

[DavidSh]

Well, OotS is a romance, in an older sense of the word. An online dictionary includes the definition:
"a prose narrative treating imaginary characters involved in events remote in time or place and usually heroic, adventurous, or mysterious".

[Ruck]

"There are nineteen rules governing literary art in domain of romantic fiction -- some say twenty-two. In "Deerslayer," Cooper violated eighteen of them."

The rules fit OotS, therefore it's romantic fiction. >:D

Heh, okay then. I've read this so many times I did not read the rules very closely this go-round. (Although given OotS' setting, the rule about being able to tell living characters from corpses may have been intentionally violated at points.) That said, these may be good guidelines for fiction generally.


Well, OotS is a romance, in an older sense of the word. An online dictionary includes the definition:
"a prose narrative treating imaginary characters involved in events remote in time or place and usually heroic, adventurous, or mysterious".

Also fair.

[Necris Omega]

HP as the Planck measurement for physical well-being... I like it!

I'm vaguely reminded of some VtM lore where some Malkavian scientist inadvertently discovered the Blood Point.

[Shining Wrath]

If a person has negative HP and is making saves to avoid death does that make them anti-matter?

[brian 333]

If a person has negative HP and is making saves to avoid death does that make them anti-matter?

It's more like a reserve valve on a motorcycle gasoline tank. You have enough gas to get to the next station, but if you forget and pass it, the tank runs dry and you have to walk.

Where physics analogies fail, motorcycle analogies pick up the slack.

[mucat]

But the cat didn't show up until book 2, right? :smallconfused: (I may have gotten some Schroedinger into my Heisenberg here).

In Book 1, it was uncertain whether there would be a cat. The wave function collapsed in Book 2.

[sillymel]

Geez, I didn't even notice that, and I'm usually on the ball when it comes to puns.

Another foot pun! Was this pun intentional, at least?

[No good @ names]

Why has Sunny had the anti-antimagic lens on since leaving "home," *except* for when they deactivated the swapover trap?

Seems like that could be troublesome if they need a quick antimagic field.

Probably The Giant’s way of avoiding the dilemma of putting Sunny into harm’s way. If he’s not using his anti-magic, Team Evil has a lot less reason to bring the big guns to bear on him, as opposed to Roy or V or O’Chul.


I think I just suffered Inflict Cognitive Dissonance from this strip.

I'm... personally not a fan of this, honestly - the DCF humor was never really my thing.
+1


Also I can't help but suspect that this is all because of some magical effect that undoes character development or whatever as part of the "unfairness" that recording!Serini mentioned.

Or just the dungeon’s shoddily constructed fourth wall breaking.


Well, yes, although it made sense in the original context, which was obviously Starcraft, you philistine.

The original series or the reimaged one with Tricia Helfer?


I don't watch Stargate either. Gate? What gate?

[Coppercloud]

Why has Sunny had the anti-antimagic lens on since leaving "home," *except* for when they deactivated the swapover trap?

Seems like that could be troublesome if they need a quick antimagic field.
My guess is that they don't want to risk disabling the stasis traps holding the monsters, and it might be hard for a beholder flying-multiple-eyed-aberration to keep their main eye closed at all times. If they are startled, they could lift their eyelid as a reflex, and all Nine Hells would break loose.

[Souhiro]

Hey guys - final panel - Sunny's main eye is open and looking right at Bloodfeast.
Who does not show any signs of reverting back to Allosaurus form.

I think that it's because the Allosaurus is hard to draw, and the Giant want to save some efforts.
I would do the same!

[Reach Weapon]

:belkar:Just don't increase my capacity for suffering.

Well, now we know Belkar dies due to his refusal of treatment.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

:belkar:Just don't increase my capacity for suffering.

Well, now we know Belkar dies due to his refusal of treatment.

He would, just to laugh at us all and take control of the situation.

[El_Chupacabra]

How did we get 5 pages in without a pedantic discussion for the "meaning" of Hit Points?

Fine, I'll be that guy. Because of how I was introduced to D&D, I've always thought of "Hit Points" more as "Plot Points" where roleplay is impacted by how much damage an attack caused, versus how much closer it put you to death.

1 HP damage for a 50+ HP NPC? DM: "Your sword dully thuds on their armor, eliciting a soft grunt of annoyance."
10 HP damage for a 15 HP NPC? DM: "The magic missiles slam repeatedly into them, knocking them back each time, the last hit bringing them momentarily to their knees."
10 HP damage for a 10 HP NPC? DM: "Your hammer strikes to the side of their head, their neck cracking from the blow, killing them instantly."
20 HP damage for a 10 HP NPC? DM: "Your fireball immolates them and they run off screaming... for about 5 paces, and then they collapse into a pile of bones, almost all of their flesh turning to ash within seconds and bones cracking in the heat."

Since you're in a roleplaying world, you can't roll dice for all the above scenarios -- or at least, you'd have to have a ridiculously multisided dice, and even then you'd have weird outcomes like "you barely hit the dragon and his head falls off". However, nobody wants to call them "Plot points" because that sounds mundane.

[ZhonLord]

How did we get 5 pages in without a pedantic discussion for the "meaning" of Hit Points?

Fine, I'll be that guy. Because of how I was introduced to D&D, I've always thought of "Hit Points" more as "Plot Points" where roleplay is impacted by how much damage an attack caused, versus how much closer it put you to death.

1 HP damage for a 50+ HP NPC? DM: "Your sword dully thuds on their armor, eliciting a soft grunt of annoyance."
10 HP damage for a 15 HP NPC? DM: "The magic missiles slam repeatedly into them, knocking them back each time, the last hit bringing them momentarily to their knees."
10 HP damage for a 10 HP NPC? DM: "Your hammer strikes to the side of their head, their neck cracking from the blow, killing them instantly."
20 HP damage for a 10 HP NPC? DM: "Your fireball immolates them and they run off screaming... for about 5 paces, and then they collapse into a pile of bones, almost all of their flesh turning to ash within seconds and bones cracking in the heat."

Since you're in a roleplaying world, you can't roll dice for all the above scenarios -- or at least, you'd have to have a ridiculously multisided dice, and even then you'd have weird outcomes like "you barely hit the dragon and his head falls off". However, nobody wants to call them "Plot points" because that sounds mundane.

That's only valid if you think of damage as a percentage of the target's maximum health pool, rather than taking the percentage of the dealer's effort into account. Say you have a cat with D3 damage and 10 strength, so that its maximum effort results in 3 damage per attack. A giant with 150hp can take 50 such attacks from that vicious house cat. That same cat, with that same damage, will claw a human peasant or even a level 1 adventurer to death in 1-3 rounds.

In general it's far better to describe the action and its impact relative to the dealer and receiver separately. For example, "the cat claws viciously with all its might... but the giant laughs 3 damage off as a trivial amount that barely breaks his skin, as he casually backhands the cat for 15 unarmed damage in turn and knocks it out. You may want to be wary if he actually draws his weapon and makes an effort, because this is likely his minimum damage output."

Or, since you mentioned an arrow to a near-dead dragon: "the creature is on its last legs as your arrow is let loose. Your arrow was wobbly and poorly drawn, so it grazes the dragon for your minimum of a mere 2 damage - not even enough to fell the squirrels you use for target practice - but even with the exhaustion of a long battle sapping your draw strength, your aim is still true and nicks an artery in the dragon's neck - finishing the blows dealt to it earlier by your comrades. The dragon collapses as it bleeds out too quickly to do anything more."

[KorvinStarmast]

The dragon collapses as it bleeds out too quickly to do anything more." He was old. He had a heart condition. The last thing he needed was an arrow to the knee heart.

[Albion]

I'm usually not that big on nostalgia but this was not just nostalgia, it was refreshing and well executed!

[Riftwolf]

I don't know if this was discussed earlier, and it's possible I'm just paranoid, bit what if this isn't a filler strip but setting up the cruellest of traps; the Forced Metagame Introspection Inducer? Teams of the smartest and most powerful minds are forced to reflect on their existence in a self-aware comedy pastiche until they're crippled with boring cyclical discussion, whereas a true Barbarian would say "thinky man think too much" and walk right through?
If you're wondering, the forum was built out of FMMII devices

[brian 333]

I don't know if this was discussed earlier, and it's possible I'm just paranoid, bit what if this isn't a filler strip but setting up the cruellest of traps; the Forced Metagame Introspection Inducer? Teams of the smartest and most powerful minds are forced to reflect on their existence in a self-aware comedy pastiche until they're crippled with boring cyclical discussion, whereas a true Barbarian would say "thinky man think too much" and walk right through?
If you're wondering, the forum was built out of FMMII devices

This...

This...

...means Serinni will go back to her old ways, and become cheerful and fun-loving!

Oh, the horror! Her face will crack!

[Quizatzhaderac]

I'd just like to point out that the planck-length in OotS verse is 5 feet. Which is minimally wonky for movement, but rather wonky for weapon reach.

In our world, weapons start getting different names with differences of a few inches. Also, all 1 handed stabbing weapons to essentially the same damage, so really the only reason to use anything other than a small dagger to stab with is because the length allows more reach or parrying, something D&D mechanics can't really represent.

The plank-height, however, is one palm (3 inches). Smaller heights have been reported (such as in personal stature), however these differences are epiphenomenal.

There are further complications setting the dimensions apart. While length and width are often locally interchangeable, singularities at the poles (true singularities in OotS-verse) as well as occasional hexagonal areas mean that length, and width, bleee, and srue are not truly interchangeable.

There's also the psuedo-dimension of "radius" useful for some strange phenomena (such as fireballs) where objects can travel further if their path is a mixture of length and width.

Finally, all of these spatial dimensions are subject to a "second quantization", were only larger increments matter for certain reasons. "Floors" quantize height into altitude, "miles" quantize length into distance, and "lis" quantize bleee and srue into gdrop.

[Gnoman]

In our world, weapons start getting different names with differences of a few inches. Also, all 1 handed stabbing weapons to essentially the same damage, so really the only reason to use anything other than a small dagger to stab with is because the length allows more reach or parrying, something D&D mechanics can't really represent.


Neither of these statements are correct. Most of the names applied to hand weapons in our world are retroactive - many of them are just "Sword" or "dagger" in the language of the area they were prominent in. Period debates on weapon factors besides length are well documented, debates in which the wounds caused by different blade shapes was a major component.

[Psychronia]

Leave it to the Giant to simplify a comic page down, generally not tie it to any part of the plot, and make us all go "aww yeah, the nostalgia". I wonder if this was a joke Rich thought of that he couldn't find a place to fit in because we were past it at that point?

Any damage less than 1 HP is effectively no damage at all, huh? Nale is probably absolved of smacking Elan's head as a kid then. It was definitely just the dump stat decisions.

This does make me curious about how the biology of a D&D universe character works compared to real life though. And stick figures on top of that.

[KorvinStarmast]

Any damage less than 1 HP is effectively no damage at all, huh? Nale is probably absolved of smacking Elan's head as a kid then. It was definitely just the dump stat decisions. And Serini is absolved of bonking Lien. :smallwink:

[brian 333]

Bi-ol-o-gy. What does this word mean? Next you'll be using nonsense words like evolution and genetics.

[ZhonLord]

Bi-ol-o-gy. What does this word mean? Next you'll be using nonsense words like evolution and genetics.
I mean, the gods DO want to actually give natural selection a try for once. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1142.html)

[KorvinStarmast]

I mean, the gods DO want to actually give natural selection a try for once. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1142.html) Next world, after the Order fails and the snarl unmakes this one. :smallcool:

[Ruck]

Bi-ol-o-gy. What does this word mean? Next you'll be using nonsense words like evolution and genetics.

Biology exists in OOTS. And it's disgusting (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0468.html).

[ZhonLord]

Next world, after the Order fails and the snarl unmakes this one. :smallcool:

Wow. Negative Nancy over here. Do you offer Energy Drains with that pessimism? :xykon:

[KorvinStarmast]

How did we get 5 pages in without a pedantic discussion for the "meaning" of Hit Points? Because those are pointless. :smallwink: Maybe folks have finally learned that.

Wow. Negative Nancy over here. Do you offer Energy Drains with that pessimism? :xykon: That will cost you extra, sir, it's not a part of the standard package. :smallcool:

[Peelee]

These days, most people will think of the wrong Hawkeye - not the one from Crabapple Cove.

Good callout, BTW.

Late to the party here, but even if you discount Hawkeye, Hawkeye was named after Hawkeye so it's not like he was the original pop culture Hawkeye. Unlike Hawkeye, who I don't think has any connection to Hawkeye or Hawkeye.

[Doug Lampert]

Late to the party here, but even if you discount Hawkeye, Hawkeye was named after Hawkeye so it's not like he was the original pop culture Hawkeye. Unlike Hawkeye, who I don't think has any connection to Hawkeye or Hawkeye.

Bad silver dragon, bad, I'd wap you with a rolled up newspaper if I knew where to find an actual newspaper, no biscuit.
Ah, a women's mail order clothing catalogue, I can roll that up and no one will miss it.

[Timy]

Late to the party here, but even if you discount Hawkeye, Hawkeye was named after Hawkeye so it's not like he was the original pop culture Hawkeye. Unlike Hawkeye, who I don't think has any connection to Hawkeye or Hawkeye.

It is a little bit like Shakespeare. I learned a while ago that it was not Shakespeare who wrote all of the plays attributed to him. It was another guy whose name was actually Shakespeare !

[Peelee]

Bad silver dragon, bad, I'd wap you with a rolled up newspaper if I knew where to find an actual newspaper, no biscuit.
Ah, a women's mail order clothing catalogue, I can roll that up and no one will miss it.

https://y.yarn.co/cd5bc49f-8289-41ef-b2b5-12d242a94ba7_text.gif

[Quizatzhaderac]

Late to the party here, but even if you discount Hawkeye, Hawkeye was named after Hawkeye so it's not like he was the original pop culture Hawkeye. Unlike Hawkeye, who I don't think has any connection to Hawkeye or Hawkeye.Not to forget the question of which, if any qualify as an avenger.

Personally, I favor that requirement that you must beat people up with an umbrella (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Avengers_(TV_series)).

Although, if you want an action movie where they actually avenge something (Poland), that was done in 1942 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Day_Will_Dawn#/media/File:Avengers_Day_Will_Dawn_poster.jpg).