[5e] Path Of The Dreadnaught (Advice/Feedback)

[BlueCherryFizz]

For a campaign setting with advanced magical armors, I wanted to give the Barbarian a heavy armor option. I understand that normally, a class' restrictions shouldn't be undone by a subclass, but I feel this change is important in the setting. Most homebrew subclasses specific to this setting increase armor proficiency to give them access to this aspect of the setting. Outside this context, Heavily Armored might be changed to a +1 AC bonus while wearing armor.

The main inspiration for the subclass is Darth Vader, in the way that he walks unerringly forward. The class is not meant to replicate the force, or lightsabers, but Vader's particular style. Though it shares aspects of Matt Mercer's Juggernaut subclass, that one is clearly designed to replicate X-Men's Juggernaut.



Heavily Armored, 3rd
When you take your first level in this subclass, you gain proficiency in heavy armor. Additionally, your rage abilities function while wearing heavy armor. This does not alter Unarmed Defense or Fast Movement.

One-Track Mind, 3rd
When you enter a rage, you can declare one creature to be the target of your fury. As long as you're raging, your attacks deal additional damage to that creature equal to your Charisma modifier.

Unwavering Rage, 6th
While raging, you have advantage on all skill contests which are initiated by opponents.

Unstoppable, 10th
While you are raging, if you gain any of the following conditions: Grappled, Incapacitated, Paralyzed, Petrified, Restrained, or Stunned, you may use this ability to immediately end any and all of the listed conditions on yourself. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus, and you regain all expended uses of it when you finish a long rest.

Pressure, 14th
While you are raging, you project a visible aura of physical and mental pressure. The aura extends 15ft from you, and you decide its appearance. The area within the aura is considered difficult terrain for your opponents. Additionally, when an enemy moves into the aura or begins its turn in it, they must make a Will save (DC = 8 + Prof + CHA mod) or be incapacitated. Creatures immune to the Frightened condition are immune to the effects of this aura, and any relevant modifiers to saves including the Frightened condition apply to saves made against this aura.



Because the 14th level ability calls for Charisma to power the save, I tied Charisma into an earlier ability. I considered another save feature for One-Track Mind instead of damage, but couldn't come up with anything that was suiting while not stepping on the toes of Pressure, or other subclasses. Ideas on totally changing One-Track Mind are welcome. Preferably something involving Charisma.
I also tried to find a place to give immunity to fear (to better reflect the name), but had trouble finding a place for it without overloading or underwhelming any given level. I'd love some advice on shifting things around without taking out necessary components.

Mostly, I would love to hear what you think of the subclass. Is it too much a Paladin? Are the abilities all too powerful? Should the cost of Unstoppable be a use of Rage?

[MrStabby]

For a campaign setting with advanced magical armors, I wanted to give the Barbarian a heavy armor option. I understand that normally, a class' restrictions shouldn't be undone by a subclass, but I feel this change is important in the setting. Most homebrew subclasses specific to this setting increase armor proficiency to give them access to this aspect of the setting. Outside this context, Heavily Armored might be changed to a +1 AC bonus while wearing armor.

The main inspiration for the subclass is Darth Vader, in the way that he walks unerringly forward. The class is not meant to replicate the force, or lightsabers, but Vader's particular style. Though it shares aspects of Matt Mercer's Juggernaut subclass, that one is clearly designed to replicate X-Men's Juggernaut.


Heavily Armored, 3rd
When you take your first level in this subclass, you gain proficiency in heavy armor. Additionally, your rage abilities function while wearing heavy armor. This does not alter Unarmed Defense or Fast Movement.

One-Track Mind, 3rd
When you enter a rage, you can declare one creature to be the target of your fury. As long as you're raging, your attacks deal additional damage to that creature equal to your Charisma modifier.

Unwavering Rage, 6th
While raging, you have advantage on all skill contests which are initiated by opponents.

Unstoppable, 10th
While you are raging, if you gain any of the following conditions: Grappled, Incapacitated, Paralyzed, Petrified, Restrained, or Stunned, you may use this ability to immediately end any and all of the listed conditions on yourself. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus, and you regain all expended uses of it when you finish a long rest.

Pressure, 14th
While you are raging, you project a visible aura of physical and mental pressure. The aura extends 15ft from you, and you decide its appearance. The area within the aura is considered difficult terrain for your opponents. Additionally, when an enemy moves into the aura or begins its turn in it, they must make a Will save (DC = 8 + Prof + CHA mod) or be incapacitated. Creatures immune to the Frightened condition are immune to the effects of this aura, and any relevant modifiers to saves including the Frightened condition apply to saves made against this aura.



Because the 14th level ability calls for Charisma to power the save, I tied Charisma into an earlier ability. I considered another save feature for One-Track Mind instead of damage, but couldn't come up with anything that was suiting while not stepping on the toes of Pressure, or other subclasses. Ideas on totally changing One-Track Mind are welcome. Preferably something involving Charisma.
I also tried to find a place to give immunity to fear (to better reflect the name), but had trouble finding a place for it without overloading or underwhelming any given level. I'd love some advice on shifting things around without taking out necessary components.

Mostly, I would love to hear what you think of the subclass. Is it too much a Paladin? Are the abilities all too powerful? Should the cost of Unstoppable be a use of Rage?


I like it.

A few points - "will save" isn't really a 5e thing. Just charisma save is fine and well specified by the rules.

The addition of a charisam requirement... its odd but kind of works, ish. So as a barbarian you would want Str, Con, Dex ability scores. Str, Con, Dex and Cha is just a crazy ask... but the heavy armor provison means dex is not really relevant so it kind of works. Given that you almost certainly wont use unarmoured defence Con could afford to be a tiny bit lower as well. I think it seems OK.

One-Track-Mind doesn't seem to tick off the implcable element of the character as much as I would like though and it seems pretty weak. Divine fury on the Zealot deals D6+Half barbarian level extra damage (though only once per turn). Still, at level 6 thats still 6.5 extra damage and I don't imagine you would be able to spare more than a +2 charisma bonus on a barbarian (its better than half as goot to have a bonus on the first hit as you might not hit with all attacks). Yes, you get heavy armour as well, but its not like you will be able to afford full plate at this level in most campaigns. Its not massively underpowered but maybe a little short. Also worth noting that you wont get to double this on a critical where the zealot will get to double their D6.


Not saying you should do any of this, but just thinking what I would do. I might be missing your mark by a long way though.

If I wanted a "Vader" barbarian (based on my feelings) I might go for a combination of fear and push-back effects. Driving enemies out of your path to close with your target and generaly being a scary dude as well. Maybe on a hit whilst raging geting to force a Str save or Wis save - with Str you push them back 10ft on a fail (if they are large or smaller), with a Wis you fear you till end of their next turn on a fail. This gives something to do both vs immune to fear enemies and huge enemies. Giving the class a spell save based on Cha can still apply if you want (and will make it corespondingly weaker)

Unwavering Rage. Obviously if you are DM, you get to say how good this is... but mostly its bad. Monsters that do things like grapples, tend to force a save as part of their stat block. NPCs... when they might grapple or hide or whatever but I see it being pretty niche. I think the usual words are "opposed skill checks".


What would I do?

I don't know really. Level 6 for barbarian is weak, sometimes less combat focussed but something a bit stronger than this might be good.

Maybe something like proficiency times per long rest roll a skill check with advantage. More general, lets you be proactive and can support the barbarian in their weaker exploration and social pillars.


Unstoppable. This is fine. I like it.

Pressure. Well the class really gos from seeming relatively weak to really very strong at level 14... or still traically weak. Rage is becoming more and more common. 15ft radius is pretty damn big for something like this (and we know from spirit guardians just how powerful a 15ft radius half speed aura is). Save or be incapacitated (which only lets them move... which they are no good at). Obviously the big issue is the immunity to fear parts, which can be 90% of all fun and meaningful enemies at this kind of level. Its not bad just because you won't have it in some fights, but rather you will miss it in those fights sufficiently tough that you really want everything your character brings.

I would look to lower the variance on this. Less overpowering at the top end, but less likey to have your subclass capstone be worthless either. Maybe just the difficult terrain effect but remove the fear immunity clause?

[JNAProductions]

The incapacitation needs a duration. As written now, it does not end.

Agree pretty much with everything Mr Stabby said.

[BlueCherryFizz]

I like it.

A few points - "will save" isn't really a 5e thing. Just charisma save is fine and well specified by the rules.
Old habit there. Meant to be Wis save, like most fear effects.


If I wanted a "Vader" barbarian (based on my feelings) I might go for a combination of fear and push-back effects. Driving enemies out of your path to close with your target and generaly being a scary dude as well. Maybe on a hit whilst raging geting to force a Str save or Wis save - with Str you push them back 10ft on a fail (if they are large or smaller), with a Wis you fear you till end of their next turn on a fail. This gives something to do both vs immune to fear enemies and huge enemies. Giving the class a spell save based on Cha can still apply if you want (and will make it corespondingly weaker)
Damage was kinda the only thing I could tack on there to tell the early dreadnaught that charisma is useful to them later. I like the shove though; Much more on brand. The save DC for Pressure was originally Str-based, but Charisma technically made more sense. I think in order to distance this from paladins, I'll return the save DC to Str and give the shove. Giving the choice of Shove/Fear seems strictly better than the Undead Warlock's Form Of Dread.


Unwavering Rage. Obviously if you are DM, you get to say how good this is... but mostly its bad. Monsters that do things like grapples, tend to force a save as part of their stat block. NPCs... when they might grapple or hide or whatever but I see it being pretty niche. I think the usual words are "opposed skill checks".
I thought it was opposed checks too, but the SRD says Skill Contest. I'll just slip in Immune To Fear here. I think another barbarian subclass does it at 6th too.


Pressure. Well the class really gos from seeming relatively weak to really very strong at level 14... or still traically weak. Rage is becoming more and more common. 15ft radius is pretty damn big for something like this (and we know from spirit guardians just how powerful a 15ft radius half speed aura is). Save or be incapacitated (which only lets them move... which they are no good at). Obviously the big issue is the immunity to fear parts, which can be 90% of all fun and meaningful enemies at this kind of level. Its not bad just because you won't have it in some fights, but rather you will miss it in those fights sufficiently tough that you really want everything your character brings.

I would look to lower the variance on this. Less overpowering at the top end, but less likey to have your subclass capstone be worthless either. Maybe just the difficult terrain effect but remove the fear immunity clause?
I figured 10ft of difficult terrain wouldn't be so effective. Based on my play with 3.5's Knight class, 15 was pretty solid.
Maybe I change the incapacitated part to enemies who start their turn adjacent to the dreadnaught. Still drop the fear clause, since having a situational capstone does sound like a bad experience.

I'm looking at conditions to maybe pick something less devastating than Incapacitated, and Exhaustion caught my eye. I haven't played with anything that causes it. Would a stack of exhaustion for each turn spent in the aura (instead of any other effects) be reasonable? Could have the stacks remove one at a time each turn begun outside the aura.





The incapacitation needs a duration. As written now, it does not end.

Agree pretty much with everything Mr Stabby said.

Good catch. It is meant to end once they leave the aura or they succeed a save which can be remade on each of their turns.

[BlueCherryFizz]

Take Two
I pushed the namesake ability to the front, and the crowd control to 6th. I'll find the proper technical writing for Swat Aside when I add in all the fluff.



Dread Not, 3rd
You are immune to the Frightened condition.

Heavily Armored, 3rd (unchanged)
Proficiency in heavy armor. Except for Unarmored Defense, all of your barbarian abilities function while wearing heavy armor.

Swat Aside, 6th
When you hit a creature with a weapon attack while you are raging, you can choose to follow through with the blow and push the target away from you, up to 10ft. If the target would collide with an object or creature, movement stops and no additional damage is dealt.

Unstoppable, 10th (unchanged)
If you gain any of the following conditions: Grappled, Incapacitated, Paralyzed, Petrified, Restrained, or Stunned, you may immediately end any and all of the listed conditions on yourself. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus, and you regain all expended uses of it when you finish a long rest.

Pressure, 14th
While you are raging, you project a visible aura of physical and mental pressure. The aura extends 15ft from you, and you decide its appearance. The area within the aura is considered difficult terrain for your opponents. Additionally, when an enemy moves into a space adjacent to you or begins its turn in such a space, they must make a Will save (DC = 8 + Prof + STR mod) or be incapacitated until the beginning of their next turn.